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Thread: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
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2011-06-01, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
My ill-fated attempt to make the True Necromancer a playable PrC. Most likely this is way to overpowered, hence why I labeled it a WIP. I will eventually re-post it with fluff once I feel happy with it but for now I am omitting all fluff because I want to get the mechanics strait. So if anybody can help me make it less broken, please, lend a hand.
True Necromancer
Art by Genzoman of Deviantart.com
-fluff goes here-
Entry Requirements:
Alignment: Any non-good
Skills: Knowledge(Arcana) 8 Ranks, Knowledge(Religion) 8 Ranks
Feats: Corpsecrafter, Spell Focus: Necromancy
Spellcasting: Must be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells and 1st level divine spells. Must be able to cast Command Undead as an arcane spell and Summon Undead I as a divine spell.
Special: Must have at least one of the following: Access to the Death, Necromancy or Deathbound Domain. Specialization in the School of Necromancy. Charnel Touch class feature. Dark Knowledge class feature.
Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points per level: 2+ Int modifier
Class Skills: Bluff(Cha), Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Heal(Wis), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge(Arcana)(Int), Knowledge(History)(Int), Knowledge(Religion)(Int), Knowledge(The Planes)(Int) Profession(Wis), Spellcraft(Int)
The True Necromancer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Rebuke Undead, Necromantic Spell Power|+1 arcane spellcasting class/+1 divine spellcasting class
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Secrets of Undeath |+1 arcane spellcasting class/+1 divine spellcasting class
3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Enthrall Undead|+1 arcane spellcasting class/+1 divine spellcasting class
4th|+2|+1|+1|+4||+1 arcane spellcasting class/+1 divine spellcasting class
5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Zone of Desecration |+1 arcane spellcasting class/+1 divine spellcasting class
6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|General of the Dead|+1 arcane spellcasting class/+1 divine spellcasting class
7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Undead Conduit|+1 arcane spellcasting class/+1 divine spellcasting class
8th|+4|+2|+2|+6||+1 arcane spellcasting class/+1 divine spellcasting class
9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Vampiric Enervation|+1 arcane spellcasting class/+1 divine spellcasting class
10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Sovereign of the Grave|+1 arcane spellcasting class/+1 divine spellcasting class[/table]
Rebuke Undead: At 1st level, the True Necromancer, if he dose not already possess the ability to rebuke undead, gains the ability to rebuke undead as an evil cleric of his character level. If he already has the ability to rebuke undead he uses his character level rather then his rebuking class level to calculate the power of his rebuking, as well as any and all other features of that ability.
Necromantic Spell Power: The True Necromancer, being a master of the dark arts learns to keep his necromantic spells even in power with those of his wizardly brethren despite devoting more time to the study of his divine magics. At 1st level and every level after the True Necromancer treats the caster level of all necromancy spells he casts, both arcane and divine, as being equal to the caster level of a spellcaster of his character level or the higher caster level among his two spellcasting classes, whichever is higher. If a spell's CL would be altered by a metamagic feat or other ability then you add that CL increase to this one rather then not applying it at all.
Secrets of Undeath : As the True Necromancer advances in power his study of necromancy reveals to him the fell magics associated with the divine domain of undeath. At 2nd level the True Necromancer adds to the spellbook or spells known of his arcane spellcasting class all undeath domain spells of all spell levels he can cast. In addition, whenever he gains access to a new arcane spell level he adds the undeath domain spell of that spell level to his spellbook or spells known. These spells are treated in the exact same manner as all other arcane spells he can cast.
Enthrall Undead: The True Necromancer being a master of both arcane and divine magics eventually learns how to twist the will of undead with spells usually unable to target them. At 3rd level and every level after the True Necromancer's mind-effecting spells and spell-like abilities all treat undead creatures as their original type.(So A True Necromancer could use charm person against a humanoid zombie, for example.)
Zone of Desecration: At level 5 and every level after the True Necromancer emits a foul aura that acts as the spell Desecrate. This ability creates a zone of negative energy centered on the True Necromancer that replicates all effects of the Desecrate spell. This spell has the same range of the Desecrate spell, using the True Necromancer’s character level in place of caster level. The True Necromancer can suppress the visual effects of this zone to make it invisible to the naked eye. However, even if suppressing it’s visual effects the zone still is visible to a person using true seeing or any similar spell, and it can also be detected by detect magic and similar spells.
General of the Dead: As a True Necromancer advances in his craft he gains the power to raise more undead they any other caster can at once. At level 6 and every level after the True Necromancer’s base amount of HD of undead that he can animate with the Animate Dead spell is 5 times his caster level instead of the standard 2 times his caster level. This amount is doubled by the desecrate spell and True Necromancer’s Zone of Desecration. If the true Necromancer possesses the deathbound domain when he gains this ability he loses that domain’s granted power.
Undead Conduit: As the True Necromancer advances in power he learns how to channel not only negative energy through the corpses of the dead, but also his own fell magics. At 7th level the True Necromancer gains the ability to cast necromancy spells with a range of touch through his undead minions. The spell is cast exactly as normal, except that it is cast through the undead's touch instead of the True Necromancer's and requires the undead creature delievering the touch spell to make an attack action. Spells cast this way are still treated as being cast by the True Necromancer and are still used up as normal.
Vampiric Enervation: While the True Necromancer is highly adapt at animating undead minions he knows that Necromancy offers far more then the ability to raise the dead from their graves. At 9th evel the True Necromancer gains the ability to drain life from foes he inflicts negative levels or ability drain upon. For every negative level bestowed or point of ability damage dealt, the True Necromancer may choose to gain 5 temporary hit points. However, these temporary hit points only last for one hour and the True Necromancer can never gain more temporary hit points with this ability than 2 times his full HP.
Sovereign of the Grave: At the height of his craft the True Necromancer becomes a master animator. At level 10 and every level after the True Necromancer may add half the caster level of one of his two spellcasting classes, rounded down, to the caster level of his other spellcasting class for the purpose of calculating how many undead he may animate with the animate dead spell.(So a Wizard 3/Cleric 2/True Necromancer 10 would be able to animate 105 HD worth Undead with a single casting of Animate Dead.)
__________________________________________________ _
So as you can see, the class borrows somewhat from the original True Necromancer class while taking a slightly different spin with it. This version of the true necro still blends divine and arcane casting but allows more entry freedom then the original class. You can now be a enter True Necro with a Wizard/Archivist build(which suffers less MAD) if you wish, as well as a Dread Necromancer/Favored Soul or countless other entries not possible with the original requirements. Also, this version requires less of a divine commitment then the first, and there IS a reason for that. Since Clerics are already good at all of necromancy while arcane casters(sans DNs) are good at all of necromancy except minionmancy I felt that the True Necromancer should be heavier in arcane casting then divine casting due to both mechanics and fluff. Mechanically, this allows the TN to be a class that shores up the weaknesses of arcane necromancy with some divine power while providing class features useful to both sides. Fluff wise this fits well as I can easily see some wizards becoming jealous of the necromantic powers of clerics and thus studying both the divine and arcane in an attempt to become a necromancer that surpasses both clerics and his own class. the same can be said for sorcerers and other arcane casters, including DNs. It just seemed like more of a fluff and mechanical fit to have the class have a heavier arcane requirement then divine.
The one ability I worry about though is their amount of undead animated. They can animate a LOT of undead. While their control pool dose not increase, the fact that they can animate so many undead with one use of animate dead means they can easily have lolundead to rival and perhaps even surpass the Dread Necro due to the excess undead rule of Animate Dead..and that is a bit worrisome. I am not sure, however, how overpowered this is, and thus I want your help balancing this aspect of the class.
So, if anybody has any ideas on how to help this class, please, lend a hand.Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-06-02 at 11:49 AM.
Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika
In D&D I am a..
SpoilerLevel 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...
Strength- 11
Dexterity- 13
Constitution- 12
Intelligence- 15
Wisdom- 17
Charisma- 16
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2011-06-01, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
This has potential for absurdly large undead armies.
However, they'd only be able to control 75 HD of undead, even if they animated 105.
Not to mention you'd need to go corpse raiding to find that many undead bodies.On a quest to marry Asmodeus, lord of the Nine Hells, or die trying.
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2011-06-01, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
True, but animate dead's entry clearly states that any excess undead from a single use of animate dead fall under the caster's control, which is the key to abusing the deathbound domain power to get more undead. Thus, with one casting of animate dead this version of the TN can, in fact, control all 105 HD because any excess undead fall under his control. While this dose not alleviate the bodies AND gold you'll need to do that I am still not sure how ballanced this is.
Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika
In D&D I am a..
SpoilerLevel 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...
Strength- 11
Dexterity- 13
Constitution- 12
Intelligence- 15
Wisdom- 17
Charisma- 16
To find out your D&D self take this quiz today!
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2011-06-01, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
How significant is 2625 Gp at level 15?
On a quest to marry Asmodeus, lord of the Nine Hells, or die trying.
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2011-06-01, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
Typo in the table "Secrects of Undeath" should be "Secrets".
You should clarify which abilities are spell-like, supernatural or extraordinary.
Necromantic Spell Power as written can actually make a spells have lower caster level if one has things that would boost the caster level (such as Ioun stones of the appropriate color, or levels in archmage). Suggest making this sort the caster level is equal to character level or their usual caster level, whichever is higher.
The capstone is interesting but a little weird since it mentions explicit PrCs but it seems thematically appropriate.
As written this is for a necromancer a strictly better option than taking mystic theurge, which is sort of ok because that's a weak class. I am however worried that with the capstone and the ease at which they will qualify for either Pale Master or Master of Shrouds, one essentially gets double 9s by going wiz 3/ cleric 3/ true necromancer 10 and then 4 of the other PrCs. That's not any sort clever optimization, that seems to be the build this is designed to do as default. Double 9s with no optimization suggests this is extremely strong.Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2011-06-01 at 09:03 PM.
My homebrew:
Spoiler
Completed:
ToB disciplines:
The Narrow Bridge
The Broken Blade
Prestige classess:
Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish
Worthwhile links:
Age of Warriors
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2011-06-01, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
my 2 cents I speak boldly (excuse my bad pun)
Forewarning: as you know Maho I'm a tad harsh with chopping up classes, so many may well accept it without you following most of my advice
OK, on some levels I think you can add to this, I just think you should add in the small ways like minor cumulative bonuses to whatever, also the only thing that really sets off my nerves about this is that it combines a necromancer with a cleric's spells, and the cleric overcompensates for not being an official necromancer if you play it right even before you start chaining undeads. But that can hardly be avoided given your intentions.
Oh yes and as usual looking back on my comments I see some as a tad silly like mine on enthrall undead, and a bazillion typos, but you know my policy of being paranoid about these things.Last edited by drack; 2011-06-01 at 10:57 PM.
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2011-06-02, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
Thanks for the tips all of you guys, and I agree about the CL thing and axeing the whole advancement of the arts ability(After all, it can still get 9ths on both sides by taking mystic theurge after this). Also, I am thinking about changing it back to 2 arcane 2 divine just divine just for making it more similar to the original. Also, Enthrall Undead is NOT effected by the heightened CL thing since that only effects spells of the necromancy school and Enthrall undead dose not change the school of the spells. So a dominate person cast against an undead creature would be an enchantment spell, not a necromancy one and as a result would not receive the CL bonus from Necromantic Spell Power.
However, I have considered toning down enthrall undead by making it only work on intelligent undead and then giving the class another ability that would allow it to cast spells with a range of touch through it's undead minions. I would move the Enthrall Undead ability up a bit and make that power the new ninth level ability...Would that combined with the changed entry and altering of the CL boost ability make this better?Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-06-02 at 08:20 AM.
Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika
In D&D I am a..
SpoilerLevel 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...
Strength- 11
Dexterity- 13
Constitution- 12
Intelligence- 15
Wisdom- 17
Charisma- 16
To find out your D&D self take this quiz today!
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2011-06-02, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
well on second thought I think enthrall undead was likely fine as it was, after all even mindless undead have semi decent will saves.
OK, after looking at the original true necromancer : you know, I think cleric is more broken than this in some ways getting a few extra castings of a few spells is hardly that much, and spells like general of udeath rely on your cleric level so the original doesn't further it, so looking back over yours were you to exclude divine from your first ability, and can advancement of the arts I think this would still have room for a few reasonably useful abilities without going over. Also for emperor of undeath I believe you should consider that chances are they have animate dead on both sides, so after this they would be able to go from divineX4+arcaneX4 to arcaneX8+devineX4 which while not nearly as obscene as some things I've seen I take it isn't what you intended.Last edited by drack; 2011-06-02 at 09:22 AM.
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2011-06-02, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
True...making it work with both sides would be better, also...I thought general of undeath worked off caster level, not cleric level. Either way this guy still gets more Undead the a pure class cleric due to General of Undeath being effected by desecrate. 10 HD animated per CL is a lot as is, and add in Emperor of Undeath and this guy can control an obscene amount of undead from a single casting of animate dead due to the "excess undead fall under your control" clause. A cleric at level 20 can have over 100HD, yes, but that's usually with spells such as desecrate, general of undeath ect... added in. This class can do that at level 15 and can well surpass the cleric at level 20, and all with a single casting of animate dead. However, thats kinda what I intended, as the "True Necromancer," who is devoted to the art SHOULD get more undead then the cleric or anybody else, for that matter.
As for some extra abilities, I added some I felt appropriate in the OP, though the enervation one I fear is broken. I also toned down Enthrall Undead and made the TN get it earler. The Vampiric Enervation ability is meant to show "hey, the TN dose more then animate stuff" as well as made the arcane necro's debuffs even more useful while the other ability, Undead Conduit, allows the TN to cast touch attacks through his undead so he can stand behind his legions and not in harms way but still cast his touch spells.Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika
In D&D I am a..
SpoilerLevel 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...
Strength- 11
Dexterity- 13
Constitution- 12
Intelligence- 15
Wisdom- 17
Charisma- 16
To find out your D&D self take this quiz today!
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2011-06-02, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
well desecrate doesn't increase the total you can command, just the strength of them. so you have a sourcerer 4/cleric 1 gets (2+3)*(cleric+TN)+4*scorc+TN+(cleric+TN)/2 as your max before items and such rip it out of proportion. I'll edit in a comparison to a level 15 cleric
undead conduit I'd make a point to say also uses an attack action from the undead
enervation:
general of undeath: oh yah, shoot, it is caster level... there's a reason I didn't let my homebrew within 50' of that spell... though that reason doesn't ally quite as completely here
S4/c1/TN10: (5*11)+((4*19)*2)= 210
C15:(10*15)=150
... I'd clip that animate dead level enhancement just leaving it as:
(5*11)+(4*14)+(4*11)=155
(that is dropping emperor of undeath)
oh yah, I forgot to add an extra +4HD commanded on each TN one
(man after figuring for an epic game where I control an empire of undeads it gets easier to spot these things )Last edited by drack; 2011-06-02 at 11:05 AM.
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2011-06-02, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
Yeah, I edited the conduit power to state that the undead needs to use an attack action to deliever touch spells for you but I still think the enervation one may be too powerful and then I am not sure if the ammount of undead this gets is too broken?
Also, edited General of Undeath and Emperor of Undeath's names to General of the Dead and Sovereign of the Grave, just to eliminate name confusion with the spell and because those names sound better to me.Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-06-02 at 11:18 AM.
Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika
In D&D I am a..
SpoilerLevel 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...
Strength- 11
Dexterity- 13
Constitution- 12
Intelligence- 15
Wisdom- 17
Charisma- 16
To find out your D&D self take this quiz today!
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2011-06-02, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
well if cleric were excluded from the available divine requirements it would leave it easily within bounds, but considering how irrational that seams, and how it kind of defeats the purpose I'd say it's a bit high, though I mainly say that because it also has an ongoing arcane class giving it a ton of combat spells as well... gimme a min to think
I like the name change
What if you were limited to x schools, necromancy and maybe one other?
(repeating disclaimer: keep in mind that I judge these things by the most paranoid standards so...)Last edited by drack; 2011-06-02 at 11:32 AM.
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2011-06-02, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
True, you've been a big help thus far, but I shall wait for some other opinions, first. Also, while wizard/cleric is the most iconic entry wizard/archivist would be far scarier. Perhaps make it like a combination of MT and Ultimate Magus, forcing the arcane class to be spontainous and the divine class being prepared? True, this dose mean a cleric entry is still possible but at least with that mold you will only have 9ths in one side at level 20, even if you take nothing but mystic theurge levels after this. That dose, however, defeat the purpose of making this useful for wizards...
Of course, I could force the divine class to be spontainous, though the issue with that is that there are hardly any spontainous divine fullcasters. There's the Spirit Shaman, Favored Soul and Shugenja, and out of those three, only one of them has a list with enough necromancy spells to fit this class.(Favored Soul.)Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-06-02 at 11:45 AM.
Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika
In D&D I am a..
SpoilerLevel 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...
Strength- 11
Dexterity- 13
Constitution- 12
Intelligence- 15
Wisdom- 17
Charisma- 16
To find out your D&D self take this quiz today!
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2011-06-02, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
I like the dual progression and rebuke undead, but a class that's focused on animating more undead?
We can already do that with items/spells/tricks, there's no need to sacrifice precious class levels for it...
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2011-06-02, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: True Necromancer Reduxe [WIP]
It has more then just the abilities pertaining to animating undead, but that is one of the main draws. The main idea of this class was to do to make a True Necromancer worthy of the title(unlike wizard's horrid creation)...a necromancer who's combination of divine and arcane magics make him a superior necromancer to both the wizard and cleric, and to me, part of being a good necromancer is having lots of undead minions. Now I know some people prefer the enervation and "spellcasting" sides of necromancy and this class has some abilites to cater to that croud as well such as the ability to use minions to cast touch spells at range(a MASSIVE benifit for a squishy TN who would rather not have to mix it up in melee.) and turning debuff spells into temporary "heals." You also can use mind effecting spells on undead, and while that CAN be a legion grower(via dominate spells) it can also be used as a weapon against undead as mind-effecting offensive spells such as confusion, sleep, some illusions ect.. can now all be used against enemy undead.
So, yes, animating more undead is at the heart of this class as I feel minions are at the heart of necromancy, but there is more here then JUST minions and thus necromancer-fans who prefer "spellcasting" necromancy to "minionmancy" necromancy still get some goodies from this class. It's just minions take the forefront because my idea of what a necromancer should be is highly defined by minions.Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-06-02 at 12:16 PM.
Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika
In D&D I am a..
SpoilerLevel 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...
Strength- 11
Dexterity- 13
Constitution- 12
Intelligence- 15
Wisdom- 17
Charisma- 16
To find out your D&D self take this quiz today!