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Thread: Why?

  1. - Top - End - #91
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Why?

    I was trying to ask why people don't ask first if there is such a problem of people wanting to help with something the OP doesn't want help with.
    I think it's much easier as the Op of a thread to steer the conversation of the thread that will be most helpful for your own build. You know what you do need, what you can't take, what the flavor of your character is, and what you absolutely don't want to part with (no matter how many ragebloggers tell you it is subpar).

    To me, if you start a thread with something specific in mind that you want to get out of it (feat optimization of a bard... versus overal optimization of a bard) it is up to you, as the Op, to share relevant information to help get the best advice you can.

    I don't think it's up to EVERYONE ELSE ON THE INTERNETS giving advice to ask you more questions so they can help you better. It shouldn't be. If you don't write down something specific, then most people will just assume one thing or another and start word vomiting whatever relevant build information they know or have read from before... hoping it helps.


    I just don't see why the people willing to give you advice are under some obligation to ask you questions about your build before they start offering their advice...

    If you were paying them, then yes... by all means ask a specific question and if they don't give you a specific answer you can complain and demand your money back.

    Personally I like reading random build optimization threads, because it helps me look at what's cool, what's helpful and what might spark some interest in a character or BBEG I might put in a game of my own some day.

    So, to me, when someone asks for a feat to make a bard run faster and people throw out random prestige classes/item selections/racial substitution levels that turn said bard into Speedy Gonzales... I just stand back amazed and think, "Yes, this is going in my next game, Andale!"
    No, you move.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    smile Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Here, if you're curious.
    Thanks! ^_^

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    If the build doesn't matter, why should you ask for it?
    To learn what is the best feat for the task? The previous feats and levels may be relevant but every single detail can't be that important to choosing a feat, can it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    But we need to know if you meet the prws for certain feats, plus how benefitual each option is. Deadeye shot for example allows you to target your enemy's flat footed AC, but only if you read an action to attack in conjunction with an ally, so whether or not it is worth it to your character depends on a lot of aspects.
    Emphasis on entire build. But good point nonetheless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post

    At first, it was the smiley faces and the mannerisms. Then, it was the infernal magpie. It struck a chord. A cutely fiendish, macabre chord.

    An then I saw Keveak in the sorting hat and you are just the cutest thing when you want to be. My gosh look at that. It's squee-inducing.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Why?

    Oh, one other thing...YOU (figurative you, not anyone in this thread) are not the only person who reads the thread. Other players might read the thread as well. A suggestion might not be very helpful to you, but it might help someone else reading the thread by giving them ideas or helping them grasp certain concepts.

    A debate is almost never about the two people debating. Chances are exceedingly good that neither will convince the other that they are right. Debates are for the benefit of everyone else, presenting points that they might not have considered, and weighing the pros and cons of various points of view.

    Just because someone isn't directly helpful to you as the OP doesn't mean its not helpful to someone else reading the thread. Don't be selfish!
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    Default Re: Why?

    Keld is right. This is a public forum and discussions evolve. If you want people to stay rigidly on topic, ask them to PM you your answers.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Keld is right. This is a public forum and discussions evolve. If you want people to stay rigidly on topic, ask them to PM you your answers.
    That never works.

    I can't get my RL discussons to stay on topic. how would I ever expect more from the net?

    Because I don't.
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord.Sorasen View Post
    Also, I'm sorry, but I disagree about the fighter and the warblade being the same in terms of fluff. The warblade literally has "fighting magic" and the fighter is painfully mundane. You might say it's different and i wouldn't say you were wrong, but my view will not be swayed for possibly a long time. The point is I would want fighter advice if I made a fighter.
    I respect your gaming choices and I'm not looking to convince you to play a Warblade, but I'm gonna have to call Inigo Montoya on that word choice.
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord.Sorasen View Post
    Also, I'm sorry, but I disagree about the fighter and the warblade being the same in terms of fluff. The warblade literally has "fighting magic" and the fighter is painfully mundane. You might say it's different and i wouldn't say you were wrong, but my view will not be swayed for possibly a long time. The point is I would want fighter advice if I made a fighter.
    You are incorrect. The Warblade has no magic. It is very mundane — just not painfully so.

    What you are mistaking for "magic" is simply "nice things".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veyr View Post
    You are incorrect. The Warblade has no magic. It is very mundane — just not painfully so.

    What you are mistaking for "magic" is simply "nice things".
    Nice things are always magic to those that don't understand them.

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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geigan View Post
    Nice things are always magic to those that don't understand them.
    Quite true.

    That doesn't mean that my iPod is magic, just that the peoples of the past think it is when I time travel.

    If I could time travel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    Somebody that pisses off a Warlock is going to go down fast. But with a Warlock, death will be a mercy because the Warlock is a secondary controller, and en route to killing you he'll first cripple you, then blind you, then set you on fire, then steal your girlfriend.
    "There is no overkill, there is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'" - Howard Tayler

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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geigan View Post
    Nice things are always magic to those that don't understand them.
    Sufficiently advanced martial techniques are indistinguishable from magic?


    OMG WARBLADES ARE ALIENS!

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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfang108 View Post
    Quite true.

    That doesn't mean that my iPod is magic, just that the peoples of the past think it is when I time travel.

    If I could time travel.
    There's no app for that?
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    smile Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moriato View Post
    There's no app for that?
    There is, but it was only published in 2054, so he might not have gotten to it yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post

    At first, it was the smiley faces and the mannerisms. Then, it was the infernal magpie. It struck a chord. A cutely fiendish, macabre chord.

    An then I saw Keveak in the sorting hat and you are just the cutest thing when you want to be. My gosh look at that. It's squee-inducing.

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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geigan View Post
    Nice things are always magic to those that don't understand them.
    Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Feytalist View Post
    Important note: It is possible to roleplay and optimise AND have fun, all that the same time.
    It is possible, but like driving, everybody assumes they are above average at all these things, and half of them are wrong.

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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Handsome Pete View Post
    It is possible, but like driving, everybody assumes they are above average at all these things, and half of them are wrong.
    And? Just because you assume that they suck doesn't mean they can't suck at both things equally.

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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Handsome Pete View Post
    It is possible, but like driving, everybody assumes they are above average at all these things, and half of them are wrong.
    Nonsense. If everyone thought they were good at optimizing there'd be nobody asking for build assistance here.

    The same goes to a lesser extent for roleplay; people ask for help with that too.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2011-06-03 at 04:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Re: Why?

    I read the first post, then I clicked on the final page. I then searched for the names of the Tome of Battle classes to confirm that every thread like this devolves into "why can't we talk about classes without being told to play 9swords" versus "everyone should play 9swords".

    I was, of course, correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfalcon View Post
    I read the first post, then I clicked on the final page. I then searched for the names of the Tome of Battle classes to confirm that every thread like this devolves into "why can't we talk about classes without being told to play 9swords" versus "everyone should play 9swords".

    I was, of course, correct.
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by cfalcon View Post
    I was, of course, correct.
    Always nice to have your confirmation bias confirmed, eh?
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    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Why?

    New lens to view this through. Think of posting a help with character thread here as a search engine (you're searching the playground's collective knowledge and experience). If you google Brownies, you will get all sorts of random stuff, but if you limit it to Brownie Recipies, you won't have to sort through as much to get a recipie, though there will still be some results that are actually pr0n.


    If you ask for "Wizard Build Help" the most common response you will get is how to build a very strong one, since most people here like playing competent characters. If you ask for "Wizard (Evoker) Build Help" the info will be more relevant to evoker, and less advice on necromancers and conjurers. If you say "SRD Only Wizard (Evoker) Build help", the info will (in theory) contain less references to splat material. However just like a search engine, these refinements won't weed out all unwanted material, but it does reduce it some. In the post itself contains a list of splats available, we know what we have to work with. If your group is sword and board fighters, and healbot clerics, and you don't want to overpower them, a good portion of us will take that into consideration if you tell us that. And if you forget to tell us something in the opening post, you can add parameters in a subsequent post.

    So bottom line: The key to getting what you want out of us is parameters. If you are only using SRD or Core, then say so. If you are dead set on certain mechanical features, list them as non-negotiable. If there are certain spats or mechanics that you do not want to use spell them out (eg No ToB). Also you should probably list relevant house-rules (since not everyone uses them, we have to assume none unless stated otherwise), and for best results: current group makeup.

    Also remember that many of the more active posters are comfortable with a fairly high level of optimization and splat availability. Infact unless otherwise specified, it is assumed that all official material is allowed. Also the general consensus of the people who post on build help threads is that character concept does not directly correlate to a specific class. If you wanted to be an assassin, we assume you mean a stealthy murderer, not the PRC neccessarily. You might be a Ranger/Scout with swift hunter, you might be a swordsage, you might even be rogue/assassin, but we assume the general concept of an assassin, not the PRC. OotS example: Miko is a Samurai, she does not have a single level in OA samurai or CWar samurai, she is a monk/paladin, but fluff wise she is a noble warrior from an "asian" nation. (thought monk/pally TWFer is not very optimized, you take my meaning)

    As personal example I frequently end up posting "no setting specific material" in my question/build help threads, because I do not use FR or Eberron material, making that a parameter. Once I post that, the references to Magic of Faerun and Races of Eberron seem to stop. Now, for a while, I frequently posted "No ToB", since I didn't know the system, and thought it might be too OP. After about a year I finally read the book, and realized that melee can have nice things, and because of that I may never take more than 2 lvls of fighter again. These unsolicited posts actually helped increase my enjoyment of the game.
    Last edited by Darth Stabber; 2011-06-03 at 07:12 PM. Reason: grammer and clarity
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Why?

    It is because of the boards that you have chosen. These boards are very high-op. Most people around here simply don't understand that the idea that some people just want to play a fighter instead of a warblade because they want to. So when someone asks for something like feat advice, they assume that they're looking to send the character into high-op. The best solution is to find some other boards to ask those kinds of questions on because these board quite frankly suck at it. If you play PF, the paizo boards are much better at taking characters as presented and then constructing forward. And no, telling people to retrain their entire character is not good advice.

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    Default Re: Why?

    -This is a public forum and if you post on it you can expect to see and hear things you disagree wtih

    -People should be allowed to speak their mind so long as its viewed as constructive

    -There is nothing wrong with exploring options and giving advice

    (however)

    -Just cus you have a brilliant idea doesnt mean the person asked for it.

    -and cant we all agree that one can expect to be annoyed when people shove things in your face that you dont want?
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernalbargain View Post
    It is because of the boards that you have chosen. These boards are very high-op. Most people around here simply don't understand that the idea that some people just want to play a fighter instead of a warblade because they want to. So when someone asks for something like feat advice, they assume that they're looking to send the character into high-op. The best solution is to find some other boards to ask those kinds of questions on because these board quite frankly suck at it. If you play PF, the paizo boards are much better at taking characters as presented and then constructing forward. And no, telling people to retrain their entire character is not good advice.
    These boards are not high-op.

    Generally speaking, people offer the advice of "yes, I see you're playing a [fighter/paladin/monk/marshal], but have you considered a [warblade/crusader/swordsage/homebrew]?" because they operate under the (entirely reasonable) assumption that most people haven't heard of the latter material. Not because they have some desire to "pwn n00bz", make people "lrn2play", or "fr33k the 'danes".
    Last edited by Fax Celestis; 2011-06-03 at 09:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    These boards are not high-op.
    +1 to this, as much as I love these forums when I want high op levels I tend to favour Brilliant Gameologists.

    I really don't have anything else to add, as my views agree with most people in this thread.

    Having said that, I have an question of my own, Why do people who don't care or don't like to optimize, read threads concerning optimization? I really hate when someone tells me to stop optimizing an have fun... (believe it has happened to me)

    Also I feel I nee to quote another poster's signature "Just play the character you want to play. Don't feel the need to squeeze every point out of the build." Excuse what gave you the impression I don't want to squeeze every point out of my build?

    Really this is a two-way street in my opinion.
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernalbargain View Post
    These boards are very high-op.
    LOL. That is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernalbargain View Post
    And no, telling people to retrain their entire character is not good advice.
    Sure it is. WotC made rules for it and everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    Having said that, I have an question of my own, Why do people who don't care or don't like to optimize, read threads concerning optimization? I really hate when someone tells me to stop optimizing an have fun... (believe it has happened to me)
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...pHavingFunGuys

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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Actually, that entry pertains more to unwanted munchkins than unwanted "stormwinders."

    I think this better represents Dusk's point.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    When a source just becomes available, that's a bit different. The DM should expect change requests in that sort of situation. But if there hasn't been some sort of a change, this is what the DM might hear:
    I gave it as a possibility. Even now, a lot of people don't have certain splats for one reason or another. I've seen a few threads recently where someone suggests something from an Eberron book for an Eberron game and the response is "I/my table doesn't have that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    "Hey, would you mind designing a whole extra side quest that will put the spotlight solely on me and possibly interfere with an existing time-sensitive quest, so that I can make a change that I should have thought of when I was leveling up? Oh, and by the way this will make my character a lot more powerful than it is now, and since I've done it everybody else at the table will want a chance to switch out their least useful choice."
    If the DM says that, I'd suggest getting a new DM.

    More seriously, just talk with the DM on it. Explain your situation in that case and go from there. Maybe it will turn to the point where everyone gets their own sidequest, but, as both a player and a DM, I love that idea. As a player, I like things that directly involve my character and can also enjoy it when it is someone else's time to shine. As a DM, I want to make sure that everyone has their own plot threads so that they each feel more involved in both the world and world building.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    It's obviously not always going to be like that, and many DMs will be receptive to changes that fit the fluff particularly well. But it's not always going to be as simple as, just go and retrain. This is one of the reasons why I'm a big advocate of the DM working with the players (especially the less-experienced ones) and offering suggestions when leveling.This sort of thing doesn't crop up as often, and is usually handled smoother when it does.
    Eh, certainly. Generally, I feel that if a DM has qualms with a splat "because it is OP" is a bit too close minded for me. Are there splat books with some high end OP-fu in them? Yeah, those are core! Seriously, though, it's not the book that's the problem there: it's this one (or two) thing inside it, but I digress.

    In general, it should not hurt to at least ask your DM for a possible retraining sidequest and working with him from there. If he says "no," ask why and talk about it to see why and go from there. Depending, you may get him to agree, but, if not, well, I hope he has a damned good reason for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    There's something that's been bugging me about asking for build advice lately. I'll post a thread asking for some sort of advice, and after a few token questions from others, everyone basically ignores it. I may attempt a makeshift build and post it, thereby bumping the thread and providing a framework for critique, but it seems to just get pummelled to the second page, which nobody ever reads.

    It seems like if you're not talking about how class X is overpowered or how class Y sucks, you're not going to get any help for a class that's just "average."
    My trend is to not jump into a thread if I see a bunch of posts with relevant advice, simply because I'm of the mind to read through all or most of all of the posts to get a bearing of what has already been said and what yet hasn't. Other times, I simply just drop a link to the most relevant handbook and be down with it, since my advice will just be a parrot of what was found there-in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    It's not about off-topicness. They'll ask a few questions related to my question, apparently needing clarification, but after I provide said clarification my original request is apparently forgotten about because some other thread has pushed it down.
    Don't be afraid to PM a mod and ask to either bump the thread for a few days or to start a new thread with some of the compiled info and go from there.
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    I gave it as a possibility. Even now, a lot of people don't have certain splats for one reason or another. I've seen a few threads recently where someone suggests something from an Eberron book for an Eberron game and the response is "I/my table doesn't have that."

    Eh, certainly. Generally, I feel that if a DM has qualms with a splat "because it is OP" is a bit too close minded for me. Are there splat books with some high end OP-fu in them? Yeah, those are core! Seriously, though, it's not the book that's the problem there: it's this one (or two) thing inside it, but I digress.

    In general, it should not hurt to at least ask your DM for a possible retraining sidequest and working with him from there. If he says "no," ask why and talk about it to see why and go from there. Depending, you may get him to agree, but, if not, well, I hope he has a damned good reason for it.
    For the first part, I can fully understand that, Rule books are freaking EXPENSIVE, even on Ebay, and these boards discourage(ie: ban at the talk of) downloading the books for free, and understandably really, as it is piracy of the companies whose works we play on this site.

    The second part: Why is it close minded to not allow certain books? Even if it is just because the DM thinks it's over-powered, that's a perfectly valid reason to not allow something. Not to mention other reasons, such as it goes against the plot thread that they have developed for the campaign.

    The last part: Why does he need a "Damned good reason" to not allow the full re-training of a persons character? That's a lot of crap to deal with mid-campaign, and can quite possibly slow it down to a crawl, and while that might not hurt anything in a RL game, on a PBP on these forums, it could quite literally kill the entire game as other players start to lose interest because they aren't actively pursuing the plot line.

    I'm considering(specifically, I probably am, I'm developing a full campaign, despite my fervid admonitions that I would never DM) running my first ever campaign soon, and I am quite likely not going to allow certain things because I, A: Don't want a super high powered campaign for my first, B: Am not familiar with the material, C: Just don't want it in my campaign. Am I wrong and close-minded for wanting my first game to go a bit easier by not allowing certain things? Is another DM, even one with lots of experience, wrong for not allowing certain things just so they can have an easier time? I'd say no personally.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    And how often does that happen? Besides, the OP may not know that their is a more efficient way of creating their character concept, and even if they do not want to retain they could use the new information in futire builds. OR others reading the thread could use it. Maybe if a policy was implemented that when you were giving build advice relating to the OP's character concept/build, but beyond the scope of the request/required material to which they had no access you should put that bit in a spoiler.
    Usually people are only asking for one or two things. If they're asking for an entire build then they say they're asking for an entire build.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2011-06-04 at 12:33 AM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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    Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)

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