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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Has anyone got a list of colours that work on these boards? Some of the colours I'm using are pretty hard on the eyes....

    ---- Edit----
    Also, is anyone going to reply to Kalinor? There's no reason why two different people can't talk at the same time...
    Last edited by Togo; 2011-06-22 at 09:44 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    Has anyone got a list of colours that work on these boards? Some of the colours I'm using are pretty hard on the eyes....

    ---- Edit----
    Also, is anyone going to reply to Kalinor? There's no reason why two different people can't talk at the same time...
    Well, I thought of talking to him, but since Rhion prefers not to be a "decider", that conversation felt better to have suited Androse, or someone else.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    Feel free to pick one for Umbriel to take as cannon. Just let me know which one.

    You may, of course, take more than one as being the position of the church of Wee Jas. Many churches have internal disagreements, particularly when different branches of the church start in different dimensions.

    Whatever you choose should be reconcilable with the fact that Wee Jas grants access to the Death Domain, including Animate Dead and Greater Create Undead. I'd have thought that this would be hard to reconcile with 1, but I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.
    No, I agree: checking back, in the semi-official campaign (Living Greyhawk) that used (1), Death eventually got replaced with Repose as a domain for Wee Jas, so this wasn't so much of an issue.

    And yes, there may well be disagreements over doctrine within the faith, but Umbriel is likely to feel that hers is the definitive position, since she studied at Wee Jas' citadel (although she never met the goddess herself, so it's still possible that she's got the wrong end of the stick, but she thinks she has literal Word of God backing her up )

    With your approval, I think I'll go with mostly (2), with slight variations on (3) and (4):
    -Manipulating the energies of life and death, including in the creation of undead, is a solemn act that should be undertaken with appropriate seriousness, but it is not inherently unlawful or against doctrine. Performed by clergy and worshippers of Wee Jas, it can be an act of worship. Spellcasters who show deep insight into the mysteries of death are especially sought-after as new converts to the faith.
    -Deliberately choosing extended existence through undeath, for oneself or another, is not inherently wrong. Sometimes a necromancer might choose undeath to better understand the mysteries of their art, or a priest or paladin might find that the task they had been called to required them to continue on past their "natural" span. However, it can indicate deliberate defiance of fate and natural death, and that pride and rebellion can itself be sinful, especially if it leads to compelling others into undeath against their wills.
    -The raising of undead should always be done in strict accordance with the law; obtaining bodies to be raised as undead in an unlawful manner is blasphemous, corrupting what should be a sacred mystery.

    Umbriel herself frowns on raising intelligent beings as undead without their prior consent - she believes that all thinking creatures have the right to judgement by their gods. There are some circumstances under which she would countenance it, but in this party, I strongly suspect the question will never come up
    Last edited by Ifni; 2011-06-23 at 03:54 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Sounds good.

    Alternatively, we can replace Wee Jas's death domain with Repose. What ever suits.

    Incidently, I have all the LG material from when I wrote a mod for it, so I suppose I could add that to the list of allowed sources.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ifni View Post
    Umbriel herself frowns on raising intelligent beings as undead without their prior consent - she believes that all thinking creatures have the right to judgement by their gods. There are some circumstances under which she would countenance it, but in this party, I strongly suspect the question will never come up
    Presently, Xuilcoatl, considering his nature as a gold dragon, believes the act of raisin any undead for any purpose as defying the natural will of the creator gods (Io, or whomever is the prominent creator-god in this world); but like I mentioned before, I think it will be fun to watch that change as the "real world" corrupts his views.

    Sorry for lack of activity - been doing the whole "12pm to 11pm" shift right next to a "8am to 5pm" shift ...
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    Has anyone got a list of colours that work on these boards? Some of the colours I'm using are pretty hard on the eyes....
    Any hex color should work. 500000580000600000680000700000780000800000880000900000980000A00000A80000B00000B80000

    EDIT: Oh, and regarding undead, Saffron probably would think of them as unnatural perversions, but she also probably wouldn't think it was her problem to go out and destroy them. Unless they were in conflict with her, like these spiders were.
    Last edited by SPoD; 2011-06-23 at 04:30 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    SPoD: but they're valuable (and apparently fairly docile) unnatural perversions!

    I should note that Umbriel doesn't even dabble in necromancy (nothing much on the beguiler spell list, and it's one of her banned schools as a wizard), and so the morality of raising creatures as undead seems unlikely to be a major issue, unless Ssther decides to go in that direction

    Togo, re Living Greyhawk material:
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    I just read through the old Deities Document and it would be great if I can use it as canon on Jasidan doctrine/ceremonies: it's more detailed than anything else I found online. I'm happy to post the relevant excerpt here if you don't have it. I'm going to do a bit more digging through my old LG material and see what else I can find: at first glance, the Deities doc doesn't actually detail Wee Jas' attitude toward undead, although it does say that her followers are fascinated by magic that breaks the boundary between death and life, and that clerics should only command non-chaotic undead (they can rebuke chaotic undead, though). At this point, I think my previous outline should still be mostly okay (since her clerics still do mostly rebuke/command rather than turn/destroy, they're clearly not outright anti-undead), but with the additional point that chaotic undead don't get the benefit of the doubt as to whether they're rebelling against their ordained deaths. Raising people as undead without their prior consent may also be strongly against doctrine, since Wee Jas is meant to be the steward of the dead who guides souls to their eternal rest, and making them undead would often conflict with that goal.

    On the question of Death vs Repose, it has no mechanical effect on Umbriel, and I really don't mind - if you also don't mind, I'd vote for Repose if I'm going to be using the LG material as canon, since that's more likely to be internally consistent (Wee Jas' domains in LG were Domination, Inquisition, Law, Magic, Mind and Repose).


    Togo, do you want new initiative rolls? Umbriel is inclined to stay out of this, for the moment, although if nobody else gives him a melee weapon she might toss him something to fight with. She doesn't think he's a serious threat anymore, and honorable death in combat seems like a reasonable request to her.

    @Togo re IC thread:
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    No worries - yeah, once Godot cast her spell, he would obviously not be interested in chatting with Umbriel.
    Last edited by Ifni; 2011-06-24 at 04:36 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Use of LG material

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    The Wee Jas entry on p186 of the deities 2.0 doc? Sure, go ahead.

    Unless anyone has objections, I propose adopting the LG variant on Wee Jas for this adventure/campaign. Mechanically this means she gets the following domains:
    Domination, Inquisition, Law, magic, mind, repose. Note that this means she no longer gets the death domain.

    The LG deities document is quite useful for fleshing out the flavour of religions and deities, feel free to have a look. It can be found at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg in the right hand sidebar, under Campaign documents. There's no obligation to use any this, of course, and I'm just happy for people to make up their own details.


    I don't think we need initiative roles, since this hasn't really degenerated into a proper fight (yet). It doesn't make much sense for people to have acted before Kulthial did, and it doesn't make much sense for him to act again until people have had a chance to respond. So the PCs may act, including Godot, should they wish.
    Last edited by Togo; 2011-06-24 at 05:44 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ifni View Post
    SPoD: but they're valuable (and apparently fairly docile) unnatural perversions!

    I should note that Umbriel doesn't even dabble in necromancy (nothing much on the beguiler spell list, and it's one of her banned schools as a wizard), and so the morality of raising creatures as undead seems unlikely to be a major issue, unless Ssther decides to go in that direction
    Scrolls!

    I've got to make a list of things to get Xuilcoatl, so he can be useful in human form. Of course, once the cat is out of the bag (so to speak - he's a dragon), he'll likely just stay in dragon form.
    Pointing out hypocrisy is not disrespect.


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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    A small announcement:

    Next monday I will travel to Norway to attend two conferences (on midge larvae and their fossil remains...the things people do for money, huh?) and to take the opportunity to cruise the fjords and mountains. I will be back the 11th of July. However, since the conferences are packed with overworked scientists, I am sure there will be means to get internet access every now and then. I expect to be able to post, but irregularly during this period.

    My apologies in advance, but it is the nature of my work. I assure you I will do anything (like paying ridiculous hotel internet fees or bullying little kids to get their I-phones ) to be able to post as much as possible.
    No PbP posting during the Easter weekend (Fri-Mon)
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Thanks for the warning. If you end up having more difficulties than you're happy with, then feel free to PM me some instructions on what to assume if we can't reach you.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    I'm all for respecting another player's alignment choices, but the post-battle prisoner debate has now lasted longer than the battle. I'll suck up a -1 penalty for the rest of the day just to move the story along at this point.
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    Thanks for the warning. If you end up having more difficulties than you're happy with, then feel free to PM me some instructions on what to assume if we can't reach you.
    Will do. Likewise, feel free to act on Derk's behalf if it seems appropriate. Outside of combat he will use his abilities (e.g. break enchantment) to relieve and help his companions whenever possible. His combat routine is simple: Swift shield, make sure team mates are safe; swift Air devotion, continue protecting or put butt in places where others don't want to go (and suck up the hits and forced saves). Don't feel sorry for him, it is what he was built for and what he has dedicated himself to. Protection (and a bit of aggression when provoked ).
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SPoD View Post
    I'm all for respecting another player's alignment choices, but the post-battle prisoner debate has now lasted longer than the battle. I'll suck up a -1 penalty for the rest of the day just to move the story along at this point.
    Well, it's Togo's call, but I'd hardly call the guy helpless - or a prisoner, at this point. Godot won't be happy, of course, but we can RP it out. Do as you will, and sorry to bog things down.

    Edit: Ah, I just got caught up with the IC thread. Well, kill him if you must, but I fail to see how that advances the story. I thought we were actually getting useful information out of the conversation before he decided to renege. What would you like to do next, SPoD?
    Last edited by Toliudar; 2011-06-24 at 08:01 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    It advances the story in that we can stop dealing with this scene and actually move on to other stuff. There's more than one way to get information, including searching corpses, divinations, tracking, and even speak with dead. Or even asking the mirror merchant what's going on.
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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    All true, and those all sound like good ideas. But I wasn't stopping anyone from doing any of those things. Then, or now.
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  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toliudar View Post
    All true, and those all sound like good ideas. But I wasn't stopping anyone from doing any of those things. Then, or now.
    Didn't say you were stopping us. It was distracting us, though.

    If Saffron started slicing the throat of tied-up prisoners, you as Godot's player couldn't ignore that just because you wanted to move the plot along. Your character would need to address that immediately, even if it meant not doing some other action you'd like to do. Likewise in this situation for Saffron and others; you can't expect us to just go search for tracks while you're doing stuff that violates our sense of right and wrong. So yes, technically you're not stopping us, but only if we accept and condone everything that is happening in our name, which some of us don't.

    And on a more pragmatic point, we gave Godot three or four bites at the apple here. Time to move on.
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SPoD View Post
    Didn't say you were stopping us. It was distracting us, though.

    If Saffron started slicing the throat of tied-up prisoners, you as Godot's player couldn't ignore that just because you wanted to move the plot along. Your character would need to address that immediately, even if it meant not doing some other action you'd like to do. Likewise in this situation for Saffron and others; you can't expect us to just go search for tracks while you're doing stuff that violates our sense of right and wrong. So yes, technically you're not stopping us, but only if we accept and condone everything that is happening in our name, which some of us don't.

    And on a more pragmatic point, we gave Godot three or four bites at the apple here. Time to move on.
    Um. Okay. Except that this was the one situation which I identified in advance as a big deal for the character, whereas I had no idea that Saffron had issues with the use of enchantment magic. Does Saffron have issues with the use of compulsions? And if I'm not allowed to do things in your name, isn't the reverse also true?

    Anyway, it's happened, and I'll figure out some way for Godot to deal with it without further derailing the thread.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Toliudar View Post
    Um. Okay. Except that this was the one situation which I identified in advance as a big deal for the character, whereas I had no idea that Saffron had issues with the use of enchantment magic. Does Saffron have issues with the use of compulsions?
    No, she has an issue with the second enchantment to do the same thing. The man's reaction to the first one clearly spelled out that to him, the enchantment was a fate worse than death. And Godot did it again anyway. Saffron is against inflicting fates worse than death on people. Most people we meet will not feel that way, so compulsions will be fine.

    Also, if Godot had used a compulsion to stop the fight, that would have been fine, too, because then the choice really will be between life or death. This was a choice between death and death-preceded-by-mind-control, because the man made it clear that he would kill himself as soon as he could.

    Basically, it was egregious. It wasn't just "I'll compulsion you rather than kill you," it was, "I don't care how bad this is for you, I want to know something you know, and your feelings about it (and the feelings of all of my teammates) are irrelevant. Submit to my will."

    There are alignments for people who insist on bending people to their will and regard their dignity as irrelevant. They don't end in a G.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toliudar View Post
    And if I'm not allowed to do things in your name, isn't the reverse also true?
    You're mixing up what I said. If I am off looking for tracks, then you are acting in my name with this prisoner. If you are off examining the treasure while we killed him, then I would be acting in your name. If we are both present and participating in the discussion, then neither is acting in the other's name. And that is why I CAN'T just go look for other stuff while you're dealing with the prisoner, not unless I wanted to accept whatever you did.

    ---------

    EDIT: tl;dr - The moment it became clear that he would end his life rather than be dominated, the domination stopped being a life-saving alternative to violence and started being torture.
    Last edited by SPoD; 2011-06-24 at 11:05 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    SPoD, I'm enjoying gaming with you, and will hope to continue to do so. In light of that, I hope we can simply agree to disagree on our interpretations of recent events.
    Last edited by Toliudar; 2011-06-24 at 11:48 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toliudar View Post
    SPoD, I'm enjoying gaming with you, and will hope to continue to do so. In light of that, I hope we can simply agree to disagree on our interpretations of recent events.
    That's not a solution. This will continue to be a problem after every fight if you can't understand why this would bother some of our characters.

    I understand your Vow of Nonviolence and I will honor it, right up until the point when you commit acts that violate my own beliefs, which are pretty broadly defined as "Don't do evil stuff." All I'm asking for is some sort of recognition that other characters do not share your views on what is acceptable and are entitled to those beliefs--and that if you want us to work within the confines of your beliefs, then we have a right to expect you to do the same.

    If I didn't spell those beliefs out in advance, it's because I assumed they were part and parcel of writing "Good" on my character sheet. If you want, I can spell out exactly what sort of things will be unacceptable to Saffron:
    • Torture
    • Causing suffering (mental or physical)
    • Prolonging mental or physical suffering when we have the ability to end it
    • Indifference toward another creature's suffering
    • Forcing a creature into any situation that we know for a fact it considers worse than dying
    • Acting as if we have a "free pass" to do whatever we want to a sentient creature because they attacked us (the "He started it!" defense)
    • Putting our desire to get the next plot coupon above a sentient creature's dignity
    • Any other variation of "the ends justify the means"

    If I think of any more, I'll happily add them to the list.

    It's not "agree to disagree," it's "agree to both work within the boundaries that we share." AKA compromise. I won't kill prisoners as long as you don't treat them in a way that makes them beg for death.
    Last edited by SPoD; 2011-06-25 at 12:28 AM.
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  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    SPoD, while as noted IC my character broadly sympathizes with yours on this particular issue*, I do have to say: I am not playing a Good-aligned character. Umbriel is fairly likely to make "ends justifies the means" arguments, in situations where she feels strongly enough about those ends that it's worth giving the rest of you insight into her motivations, and she's likely to be fairly indifferent to several large categories of suffering. Of course, Saffron is entirely free to disagree with her vehemently, call her heartless, etc, but if your reaction as a player to those arguments is "this is unacceptable, my character would never work with someone who thinks like that", then I think you are going against the condition that we all accepted in the recruiting thread: "an ability to work with people of differing alignment is necessary to play in this adventure".

    I don't anticipate problems here - Umbriel is very flexible in who she works with, and should not have any difficulty adapting to a mostly good party, and there are several other Lawful characters to ameliorate the fact that she generally wouldn't trust Chaotics as far as she can throw them - but I just wanted to make sure we're on the same page.

    FWIW, I don't feel Godot's actions were clearly non-good: as I read it, she was using extreme measures to try to keep the guy from attempting suicide. That seems fairly consistent for someone dedicated to non-violence and believing in the joy of life. Of course I cannot speak for Toliudar's character here, these are just my thoughts as an outsider.

    *Although if Godot had gotten useful information Umbriel would've accepted it without demur; she's a pragmatist. She doesn't follow the Golden Rule, because her adversaries generally don't either: she just prays she'll be clever and careful and lucky enough never to be at her enemies' mercy.
    Last edited by Ifni; 2011-06-25 at 01:16 AM.
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  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    With all due respect, and against my diplomatic sense, I feel compelled to point out that opening indiscriminate and extremely lethal fire upon a group of whom we most clearly didn't know the intents is a lot less "good" than what Godot does over there. This seems more of an IC issue than an OOC one, though.

    But I'll agree that this interrogation scene dragged a little more than it's supposed to, yes.

    Also, I'll +1 Ifni's post, despite it being full of ninja skills.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2011-06-25 at 01:29 AM.
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  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SPoD View Post
    That's not a solution. This will continue to be a problem after every fight if you can't understand why this would bother some of our characters.

    I understand your Vow of Nonviolence and I will honor it, right up until the point when you commit acts that violate my own beliefs, which are pretty broadly defined as "Don't do evil stuff." All I'm asking for is some sort of recognition that other characters do not share your views on what is acceptable and are entitled to those beliefs--and that if you want us to work within the confines of your beliefs, then we have a right to expect you to do the same.

    If I didn't spell those beliefs out in advance, it's because I assumed they were part and parcel of writing "Good" on my character sheet. If you want, I can spell out exactly what sort of things will be unacceptable to Saffron:
    • Torture
    • Causing suffering (mental or physical)
    • Prolonging mental or physical suffering when we have the ability to end it
    • Indifference toward another creature's suffering
    • Forcing a creature into any situation that we know for a fact it considers worse than dying
    • Acting as if we have a "free pass" to do whatever we want to a sentient creature because they attacked us (the "He started it!" defense)
    • Putting our desire to get the next plot coupon above a sentient creature's dignity
    • Any other variation of "the ends justify the means"

    If I think of any more, I'll happily add them to the list.

    It's not "agree to disagree," it's "agree to both work within the boundaries that we share." AKA compromise. I won't kill prisoners as long as you don't treat them in a way that makes them beg for death.
    SPoD, in case my previous post wasn't sufficiently clear: I think that your characterization of Godot's actions are unnecessarily inflammatory, and the tone that you're taking is swiftly making the game un-fun. I don't think that keeping a healthy, sane person from committing suicide is evil. Clearly, we disagree in this. Hence the "agree to disagree".

    However, rest assured that, given your response OOC and Saffron's IC, Godot will be much less likely to take a lead role in the future. I'm sure that others will do a better job of living up to your moral code.
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  25. - Top - End - #205
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cespenar View Post
    With all due respect, and against my diplomatic sense, I feel compelled to point out that opening indiscriminate and extremely lethal fire upon a group of whom we most clearly didn't know the intents is a lot less "good" than what Godot does over there. This seems more of an IC issue than an OOC one, though.
    I agree, and it was a mistake on my part. I didn't know that we were the targets; I assumed they were after civilians, and if I had waited for them to attack then they would have killed several immediately.

    I also had no way of knowing that one round of attacks would destroy them so completely, both because I didn't take into account the extreme boosting that I was getting and because I thought they were closer in power to us. I had assumed, incorrectly, that they would be able to soak up the damage. One of the downsides of PbP is that I can't ask the DM what the result of each arrow was before shooting the next one. My intent was to knock them to negatives, not kill them, but I got (un)lucky critical hits.

    Those aren't excuses, but they are the reasons why it happened the way it did. If someone wants to talk to Saffron about it IC, she will more or less say the same thing (though probably focusing more on the "defending civilians" part).

    So if your point is that I did something unrelated wrong, then I agree and will be trying better in the future to avoid the same situation. But that doesn't really impact on this situation at all.
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  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ifni View Post
    Of course, Saffron is entirely free to disagree with her vehemently, call her heartless, etc, but if your reaction as a player to those arguments is "this is unacceptable, my character would never work with someone who thinks like that", then I think you are going against the condition that we all accepted in the recruiting thread: "an ability to work with people of differing alignment is necessary to play in this adventure".
    This is how I would prefer to handle these issues, too: IC. But we are unfortunately in a situation where we need DM adjudication before even another moment passes, so we're stuck discussing it here.

    As far as all the explaining, she asked me whether I had a problem with compulsion spells, so I tried to explain that I did not, as long as they weren't used this way.

    Generally speaking, Saffron could have worked with anyone, but the more they violated her beliefs, the less likely that she was going to spend any energy observing theirs. Since Toliudar started this game asking that we all abide by her specific vow, I felt it was fair to expect that she would at least make an effort to understand and respect my character's P.O.V. in return--a P.O.V. that I voiced in-character several times. Instead, she said OOC that we'll "agree to disagree," which is universal code for "I'm not going to change, so there's no point in discussing." At that point, I have little reason to bother respecting her Vow of Nonviolence, or indeed her opinion on anything.

    In short, I doubt would have ever had a problem with Umbriel because Umbriel would have never asked me to behave a certain way. Godot did, then used my inaction to perform an act Saffron found questionable. Hence, Saffron felt betrayed; the man suffered because she stayed her hand at others' request.

    -----------

    Speaking strictly as a player, I think asking other players to respect an unusual choice that compels them to act a certain way creates in you an obligation to listen to their opinions on related matters. If the paladin demands that no one steals, the druid is within her rights to say, "OK, but only if you don't burn down trees." That's what working together means.

    If we want to play a team, then we have to listen to and respect each other. If we want to play a bunch of loners who happen to be in the same place, then OK, we can just ignore each other's feelings. And hey, we can steal from each other or kill each other in our sleep, too, right?

    -----------

    However, since it seems that the majority seems to think that I'm in the wrong here, I will bow out of this game. I certainly don't want to ruin it for anyone else, and Toliudar has made it clear that me playing will do so for her. So the duty lays on me to leave. Just assume that Saffron is so upset by these events that she leaves and continue on from there.

    Sorry for derailing the OOC thread, Togo. I hope everyone has fun.
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  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    I strongly suggest against leaving, SPoD. As I tried to hint in my earlier post, the disagreement between Godot and Saffron is supposed to be purely IC.

    The ideal result will be a tension and a slight animosity between the two, but such is the way of any group in any fantasy literature. The key is to keep things IC, and also compromise a little in strategic measures.

    My suggestion of how to tie things up for this encounter:

    To finish this quickly, the prisoner is granted death in fair combat or something, which is sad for some (including Rhion) but bad things happen in life. Saffron and Godot argues, Godot compromises to not use magical compulsion to force people against their will, Saffron compromises that sometimes it's better to allow a momentary intrusion of free will if lives are at stake. Or both disagree and swear they will leave after this job. These compromises can happen despite your very clear cut impressions of your character's personality, because (I believe) that it's better to roleplay 0.95 of your character in a game than have your full character not play in a game.

    Anyway, and we move on.

    tl;dr: It's better to compromise a little from your character's personality than not being able to play it at all.
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  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cespenar View Post
    tl;dr: It's better to compromise a little from your character's personality than not being able to play it at all.
    The problem is that I've already tried to compromise OOC, and it didn't get me anywhere. I was told twice that the only option was to "agree to disagree," which is NOT compromise, it's just ignoring the other person. The reason I'm upset is that it feels like I had already agreed to compromise by obeying her Vow, and when a situation arose that I had an issue with, I was told that explaining my character's exact position (after being asked to explain that position) was "unnecessarily inflammatory." So, her character's morals are important enough that we all need to follow them but my character's aren't important enough to even be discussed? That is not a disagreement between Godot and Saffron anymore, that is a disagreement between Toliudar and SPoD. No amount of IC discussion will fix that.

    As I see it Toliudar has said that she would rather ignore me than compromise and would rather stop fully participating in the game than acknowledge my point of view. I don't really see how I can play alongside someone who feels that way, and I personally don't want to be responsible for this game breaking up. Since everyone else seems to agree with her interpretation of the OOC events, I should go.

    EDIT: In other words, this game thread may require that the characters in it be willing to work with others who don't respect the same things they do, but my actual life doesn't.
    Last edited by SPoD; 2011-06-25 at 04:48 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    I personally don't think Toliudar meant your character is unimportant with the words "agree to disagree", but that might be my hopeful misinterpretation. Regardless, that seems one of the many tiny factors that needlessly escalated this issue from IC to OOC.

    See, it went from "Godot means this, Saffron means that" to "Toliudar sees my character unimportant" and "SPoD is being inflammatory". The latter is the result of the argument getting out of hand and doesn't reflect the truth, in my opinion. The IC part is the real argument, and I know what I'm going to say is not an easy thing, but it would be a better person's move to just forget all the OOC part, take a step back, and resolve the whole thing IC.

    An example of a IC resolve: Saffron, having enough, gives the blade back to the man and offers him to duel. Godot, being the pro-life person that she is, objects, but isn't listened by her. Duel happens, Saffron wins, both are angry at each other, but there's a reason to ignore that anger: the plot regarding the mirrors and such. Seeing that there's a greater good to focus on, the duo doesn't stay longer on the issue until something similar will crop up. Which we hopefully would resolve IC as well.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2011-06-25 at 06:40 AM.
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  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Togo's Planar Adventure set partly in Sigil (OOC)

    Wow - I take my eyes of the OOC thread for a moment...

    I'm not sure it's my place to interfere in how the party gets along (or doesn't).

    However, I would make one suggestion - my feeling is that Saffron's difficulty mainly with the perception that, having dominated the guy once, and discovered that the action Godot wanted him to do would literally drive him to suicide, Godot is preparing to do the same again. I'm not sure if that's true, or if Godot simply wanted to restrain him, but I suspect that it is the idea of intentionally violating someone's will to the extent that they beg for death that's the critical factor here.

    I'm not clear if that is what Godot intends to do?

    That said, I suspect that some of the comments about distracting or holding up the thread are a little misleading. The problem, and stop me if I'm wrong, is not that the thread is slow, or the party is distracted, but rather that the point that violates people's principles is violating it in a long and drawn-out fashion? Making it that much harder to ignore?

    If you guys intend to keep on taking prisoners, and that seems likely, agreeing what you can and can't do to them seems like a useful step. Agreeing to disagree isn't really a solution. I'm not sure having a player leave solves it either.

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