Uncannily Dodging the Moon

[CTrees]

-why should perfect smoothness and parallel alignment be assumed to be able to been crafted and maintained? What's the creation process? Is there a craft DC for such smoothness, setting of angles, etc.?

Wish how did you think I was throwing planetoids?

Etc. My point is, dc15 for avoiding anything falling on you outside of a trap doesn't just feel unrealistic; it feels unrealistic enough to take me out of the game. Arrow volley? Sure. Shrink item'd giant cube of heaviness? Moon? That strikes me as... wrong. If something takes me out of the game to the extent this does, I personally think it needs a houserule. Though I don't think 'lol I drop a boat on you' should be an instant win, either. The solution is... likely complex, if we're not going with 'have the gm eyeball it.'

[JaronK]

Knowledge tells you how things work, but by itself doesn't give you any ability to manipulate things. (Certain feats and class abilities leverage Knowledge checks into benefits beyond just knowing things.) No, for fine control of Telekinesis you need a different skill: Sleight of Hand.

Note that you do make Knowledge Architecture and Engineering checks to build boats and other large structures. So, there is some precedent for using the skill to directly do things.

JaronK

[ffone]

Wish how did you think I was throwing planetoids?

Etc. My point is, dc15 for avoiding anything falling on you outside of a trap doesn't just feel unrealistic; it feels unrealistic enough to take me out of the game. Arrow volley? Sure. Shrink item'd giant cube of heaviness? Moon? That strikes me as... wrong. If something takes me out of the game to the extent this does, I personally think it needs a houserule. Though I don't think 'lol I drop a boat on you' should be an instant win, either. The solution is... likely complex, if we're not going with 'have the gm eyeball it.'

I guess what I'm saying is that the hypothetical, Tron- or video-game-like scenario of perfectly parallel, flat, smooth, extensive surfaces moving towards each other (like those Super Mario levels with the falling ceilings) in a vacuum and meeting to create an atomic seal miles wide.....seems as unrealistic (especially in a pseudo-medieval setting, even with magic, which tends to have more 'organic texture') as the dodging. It's like complaining about the lack of rules for machine guns or nuclear bombs in the non-modern SRD.....even though I suppose it's possible for a group of Forgotten Realms humans to develop them, if they have all the same intelligences and mine-able metals we do.

Shy of that extreme case, I'd have no objection to a DM making a falling-ceiling trap with a higher DC due to 'superior craftsmanship and circumstances' or whatever. Although you get into the territory where the "you can always make a 20 so Joe Commoner has a 5% survival chance" is annoying. One sol'n is a compound trap with multiple rolls involved. Or you could houserule that for inanimate things like traps, 1s and 20s are not auto-success and failure, and the reactive saves are more akin to skill checks.

And if a PC wanted to create such a thing, then some sort of checks (like the craft check referenced in Minor Creation, or the Sleight of Hand for Telekinesis referenced by other posters above) are certainly called for.

And if we're just gonna rag on 3.5 for not covering every scenario in Einsteinian perfect fidelity to physics, there's much lower-hanging fruit. Like the fact that you need a 30' long leash to walk a leashed dog at 3 miles per hour (or 60' to hustle at 6 mph).

I think somewhere in the DMG (might be another book or even one of the Rules of the Game-articles; been a long time, could find it with a quick scan) there is a clause that the DM should adjudicate when Evasion (or Reflex-save for that matter) doesn't work/isn't possible. A closed, smooth-walled room with no objects entirely filled by a Fireball is given as an example of a situation where the DM should revoke the rights to a Reflex-save. Again, though, I don't remember where I read that (I remember it was in some DMing advice opus but that's it; it's been aeons since I read the core books cover to cover) so I'm not sure where it is.

Although if the DMG mentions Fireball specifically I'd defer to it in that case when DMing, I've always considered the Fireball example to be a weak example of showing 'Evasion is unrealistic.'

AFAIK nothing says 'a Fireball is an utterly perfect sphere of flame with no gaps'; precisely because Evasion exists, I would fluff it as consisting of a ragged flower of flame tendrils with narrow gaps which a skilled individual can use to snake/roll/jump through. Perhaps the flames and flaps move during the instant of the spell (like an incendiary grenade in the movies), which is why a non-Evasion character can't avoid all damage by luck. (I know the spell is Instantaneous but most things are not, in-character, literally instantaneous and moving faster than light - an arrow takes a few milliseconds to arrive and whatnot).

This also lends itself to a nice interpretation of spell DCs....a higher-Int wizard is more skilled at creating fireballs which are closer to flawless, and possibly expand faster, and thus harder to avoid the brunt of. A caster with higher caster level has learned to create hotter fireballs which thus do more damage. (Apparently natural talent, and experience, improve your fireballs but in different ways.)

Whereas reflex saves and Evasion don't help you with a Cloudkill - apparently it fills the area more homogeneously (which comports with my understanding of nonmagical gas expansion from high school chem).

[Calimehter]

And if we're just gonna rag on 3.5 for not covering every scenario in Einsteinian perfect fidelity to physics, there's much lower-hanging fruit. Like the fact that you need a 30' long leash to walk a leashed dog at 3 miles per hour (or 60' to hustle at 6 mph).

Ready actions should solve this, right? At least until you get to a fire hydrant . . .

Thanks for the answers (and extra sources for the DC15 save) folks!

[ffone]

Ready actions should solve this, right? At least until you get to a fire hydrant . . .

Thanks for the answers (and extra sources for the DC15 save) folks!

I think the readied action occurs before the trigger rather than 'during'. The issue is that your movement and the dog's movement have to occur one before the other, so regardless of which one is first, you'll be 30' apart at some point.

If delay actions could be used mid-turn in order to alternate 5' increments, that'd pretty much do it though. Readying wouldn't work since it's a standard action, which means you can only do it once per round each, and then you could no longer hustle.

I've actually run into this sort of issue DMing when I tried to do interesting things like fighting in flowing water or on a moving platform with passing obstacles....whether you have everyone in the water get moved with the flow at the same time (say, end of the round) or on their own initiative, you can get funny little discretization effects.

In some cases you can just keep a convenient frame of reference, like if everyone is on the same moving boat and no one is using stationary spell effects that aren't physically anchored like Web, but when you have things like different boats, shore vs boat, it's a bit annoying.

Falling is funny this way too - you go several hundred feet, and then (if capable of acting) you do a full round of action's at one particular altitude, then do more falling. Like if you want to fall past and full attack a flying foe, you better get the distance offset just right (i.e. start an integer number of rounds above it)!

[Curmudgeon]

The issue is that your movement and the dog's movement have to occur one before the other, so regardless of which one is first, you'll be 30' apart at some point.

Half that (15') actually. You're only using one move action per round (because the dog is using the rest of the round to sniff things or do other business), and you overlap your movement. A 15' leash will work just fine.

[Darrin]

How does a character evade that? I mean, I know the crunch supports this type of thing, but I'm curious as to how it gets justified in fluff.

Crushing things with large objects requires bringing physics into D&D. If a sufficiently large amount of physics gets involved, a proportionally large number of catgirls is likewise indiscriminately slaughtered. Since we know all living catgirls have a certain nonzero amount of hammerspace at their disposal, the sudden collapse of all that hammerspace creates wormholes in the fabric of the grid map, allowing particularly evasive individuals to tell Euclidian geometricians to go suck it.

[Brainstomper]

I might have to review the rules for readied actions again. We are pretty liberal with allowing simultaneity with readied actions, and maybe we are being too much so. Though I suppose if we are avoiding problematic issues through some accidental rule zeroing, then there's not much harm in it.

Edit: Its me Calimehter - that's what I get for using a friend's computer w/o checking the login settings.

[The Cat Goddess]

Of course. I was more referencing the thread title than the actual ability.

As to the rest of it, I agree in theory, but lets look at an example:

In the Tomb of Horrors, there is a trap which has the ceiling fall on a character. The ceiling is solid stone, and exactly the same dimensions as the room it drops on.

How does a character evade that? I mean, I know the crunch supports this type of thing, but I'm curious as to how it gets justified in fluff.

Unless the ceiling is magically held together, it doesn't fall as a single unit. The reflex save is the ability to dodge between pieces of the ceiling.

Same with a "Moon" dropping on you... air friction causes the object to break apart.

[Doc Roc]

Star Warsian spoiler ahead.

Spoiler

Show

So Chewbacca should have had evasion?

[CTrees]

okay, time to get silly. I'm a thrallherd, and my thralls are a wizard w/ some crafting feats and a hulking hurler. The hulking hurler's favorite throwing weapon is the moon (relatively light for an optimized hurler, I'll admit), and so the wizard enchanted it, making it a +1 ghost touch, returning moon.

I see a lvl 1 gnome truenamer someone made ethereal. This makes me very angry, so I borrow my hurler's ghost touch moon and drop it on the truenamer, from about sixty feet up (so it lacks the time or friction to break apart). I'm just dropping the moon, not throwing it, so it shouldn't try to return to me. Ethereal should mean the wind from a falling moon won't push it away, but to be sure I laid down some walls of force around him, first, as an open-topped box, and used (insert random force effect here-subterranean force cage? Walls of force adjacent to one another with no gaps? Whatever) to create a 'floor' he can't be pushed through.

Are you going to tell me that should be a dc15 ref save for the truenamer to dodge that dropped moon?

[ffone]

okay, time to get silly. I'm a thrallherd, and my thralls are a wizard w/ some crafting feats and a hulking hurler. The hulking hurler's favorite throwing weapon is the moon (relatively light for an optimized hurler, I'll admit), and so the wizard enchanted it, making it a +1 ghost touch, returning moon.

I see a lvl 1 gnome truenamer someone made ethereal. This makes me very angry, so I borrow my hurler's ghost touch moon and drop it on the truenamer, from about sixty feet up (so it lacks the time or friction to break apart). I'm just dropping the moon, not throwing it, so it shouldn't try to return to me. Ethereal should mean the wind from a falling moon won't push it away, but to be sure I laid down some walls of force around him, first, as an open-topped box, and used (insert random force effect here-subterranean force cage? Walls of force adjacent to one another with no gaps? Whatever) to create a 'floor' he can't be pushed through.

Are you going to tell me that should be a dc15 ref save for the truenamer to dodge that dropped moon?

Ghost touch only helps with incorporeal, not ethereal - but you might as well have this all in a vacuum anyway (give everyone necklaces of adaptation and whatever they need to not explode from zero pressure).

Also - do walls of force block stuff 'on edge'? I think the walls of force around the gnome might stop the moon once it hits their top edges (and even of Walls of Force don't block stuff with their edges - unless you have absolutely perfect perpendicular angles, they will be hitting the faces at a shallow angle).

Also, the moon is not perfectly smooth. Maybe the dude found a little crater to move towards. (You could make an example up where it's a perfect sphere - point is, such objects are rarer in a medieval-fantasy setting than 'rough' objects).

Also, throwing a moon is going to involve all sorts of interesting physical effects. Throwing the moon 10' in a vacuum and with no footing for friction should push back the hurler by 10' x (ratio of masses), if I recall my Newtonian physics. The rules for throwing weapons may not say this...but then again they don't say that when you throw a weapon, the Newtonian physics don't apply (it's just that due to the size of normal thrown weapons, and the friction at your feet, it's gonna be negligible vs 5'). In fact I believe the DMG or SRD has a passage to the effect of 'where not specified otherwise, normal physics applies'.

The TO hulking hurler is indeed silly as you said, and the exponential-in-Str carrying capacities allow optimized characters to throw planets. This is indeed an 'unrealistic example', but it's not like the DC 15 save is the one ridiculous piece of a situation which otherwise would have verisimilitude. TO hurlking hurlers are just going to generate a number of silly things you can do, because the DnD rules typically deal with scales where, for example, you have a stable gravity (which might be zero gravity) and frame of reference. For example, the hurling hurler can use the Newtonian physics to make "jump" checks which are exponential in his Str rather than linear as normal (by 'throwing' the planet at his feet so he's shot high into the air).

No one's claimed that the DC 15 save is 'realistic' in every possible situation. In fact, above, I suggested higher DCs for 'superior craftmanship' falling ceiling traps (and as always the DM should eyeball the trap CR by comparing to preexisting traps). However, I would claim:

- DC 15 is more realistic than "no DC" (i.e. "DC infinity and you fail on a 20 too") for the overwhelming majority of situations which exist in the books or will be plausibly found in a medieval-fantasy setting.

- Therefore, if we're gonna have one simple rule (a flat DC), I'd take 15 over infinity. If you want something 'better', by all means suggest a DC formula based on angles, distances, smoothness (and maybe Craft etc. DCs for creating such things) etc. or perhaps a list of successively harder situations and their DCs (such as found in many skill descriptions like Climb).

- Since the only effect of a houserule to this effect is going to be to encourage the boring, TO tactic of dropping things on people and demanding they get no save (or a really high one), I have no motivation to invest time in figuring out a "more realistic" houserule when that time could be spent finding or making houserule that actually improve the gaming experience (and would come up more often in a 'normal' game where people aren't trying to optimize around the houserule).

- The no-DC situation is an extreme corner case involving silly things like miles-wide perfect cubes or TO hulking hurlers. No one's claiming you can't find silly corner cases in DnD rules in general. Honestly, does someone just have a link to a nice list of such things (like the Chuck E Cheese who moves faster than light)? A 'wiki' like approach with a master list of 'here's a hole in physics vs DnD rules' examples would be more interesting than a monthly thread where someone else rediscovers the same things.

[The Cat Goddess]

Evasion vs. Fireball.

Seeing the fireball coming (or sensing it through some preternatural ability of player-character-dom), the Rogue ducks and rolls... his cloak flapping about. His constant motion keeps him from catching fire, and the cloak prevents the fire from touching his skin.

A nude Rogue evading a fireball... less believable. A Rogue wearing a chain shirt evading a lightning bolt (without there being some other large metal object nearby)... even less believable.

[ffone]

Evasion vs. Fireball.

Seeing the fireball coming (or sensing it through some preternatural ability of player-character-dom), the Rogue ducks and rolls... his cloak flapping about. His constant motion keeps him from catching fire, and the cloak prevents the fire from touching his skin.

A nude Rogue evading a fireball... less believable. A Rogue wearing a chain shirt evading a lightning bolt (without there being some other large metal object nearby)... even less believable.

Nude rogue vs fireball: how do we know the Fireball a perfect sphere with absolutely no (smaller-than-a-5'-cube) gaps?

Lightning bolts move in a line because that's what the spell says. They don't follow the paths that nonmagical electricity from e.g. lightning or a Tesla coil might. I suppose you could fluff it as a sudden negative charge at the caster's end and a positive charge at the far end which are strong enough to pull the current along the line from negative to positive (or a barrier it hits and may stop at on the way) irrespective of nearby metal.

[Doc Roc]

Nude rouge vs fireball: how do we know the Fireball a perfect sphere with absolutely no (smaller-than-a-5'-cube) gaps?

It's a spread, so we can't be sure, really, but a Burst doesn't have these issues, and a Spread is technically a burst that turns corners.

[ffone]

It's a spread, so we can't be sure, really, but a Burst doesn't have these issues:

"A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends."

That's rules text, not fluff, and unless you're arguing that by RAW Evasion doesn't apply to burst effects (to which I'd reply specific trumps general and/or the effect is 0 damage according to the formula Evasion gives us) such as Sunburst, I don't see the issue.

Also, it says 'whatever it catches in its area', not 'everything in its area'. If you used Evasion successfully, apparently you were not 'caught'. (I'm not saying this is the intended meaning of 'caught' in the text - but if you're extrapolating the mechanical definition of caught in the area to the fluff of it, there you go).

If it's really a verisimilitude issue for some players/groups, my advice would be:

1. Try double checking your own 'mental movie' assumptions about what each effect 'actually looks like'; IMO finding explanations that are consistent with the rules is part of creative roleplaying and the fun.

2. Failing that, have an Evading character take 1 damage. Very small balance difference (except maybe right at 2nd level for a rogue with a Con-penalized race like elf). Now "it's unrealistic" falls back to the inane threads about biology and medicine and what HP really represent and how much 1 HP is.

3. Declare that with Evasion you take 1/2 HP of damage and it rounds down, sort of like the random bruises and scrapes that wilderness travelers never seem to suffer in DnD.

4. Make sure your Evasion characters always wear Badass Capes (which are fire-retardent, non-conducting material). Maybe houserule it requires some unspecified 'masterwork prop'. And as DM don't give 2 levels of rogue or monk to any nekkid monsters.

5. If your fluff that justifies evasion suggests anyone *could* do it by dump luck, then houserule 'critical saves' where on a 20 you roll again, and if that saves, you get free Evasion for that effect.

[Doc Roc]

Um. I wasn't arguing evasion shouldn't apply. I really don't care too much, the rules-is-the-rules, and verisimilitude can chuffle away.

It's pretty much incontrovertible that the intent was each square in a burst be evenly affected, and each square in a spread be similarly equivalent in its exposure. The granularity of simulation never really dips below 5ft squares, so I mean, if you want a swiss-cheese fireball as your explanation, that's fine... It's just also kinda weird given what we know.. I always just assumed they dodge along some path orthogonal to 4space.

[ffone]

Um. I wasn't arguing evasion shouldn't apply. I really don't care too much, the rules-is-the-rules, and verisimilitude can chuffle away.

It's pretty much incontrovertible that the intent was each square in a burst be evenly affected, and each square in a spread be similarly equivalent in its exposure. The granularity of simulation never really dips below 5ft squares, so I mean, if you want a swiss-cheese fireball as your explanation, that's fine... It's just also kinda weird given what we know.. I always just assumed they dodge along some path orthogonal to 4space.

I genuinely don't get the feel from that passage that the fluff of spreads has to be physically homogenous (although IIRC most spreads don't allow reflex saves, like the 'gas' type conjuration effects), it's just saying they cover every square in the area and that 'affected' means something like 'has to make a reflex save' (or whatever for that particular effect) not 'definitely takes some heat and fire damage'. Lots of spreads may be Fort or Will negates, in which case many characters won't be 'affected',

The very fact that fireball has a reflex save, whereas say Cloudkill has none, suggests to me that there are things more homogeneously area-filling than fireball, i.e. fireball's not as homogeneous as it could be. (The fact that it has a DC at all, which means some fireballs are harder to take part or zero damage from than others, also suggests this. "Hotter" seems better accounted for by caster level / damage die, empowering etc.)

A case I DO have trouble explaining and buying fluff for:

A Colossal creature could have Evasion (and say it's a really big area like a widened Sunburst and the creature is a long way from any edges of the affect - he might dodge a regular Fireball like a Medium rogue dodges an Orb of Fire!) My fluff would require pretty darn big gaps, potentially as big as an actual Fireball to begin with....and despite that, a Fine creature without Evasion has zero chance to take no damage.

(Maybe if you're that small, the mere heat nearby tends to be damaging - physics of scale makes smaller things more sensitive to environmental temps - but that's a case specific to cold and fire damage).

Fortunately this rarely comes up in my experience since

- big creatures don't often take rogue levels (a monk dip might be good but I've not yet run across it at least). I don't think I've ever seen a Huge+ creature with Evasion in my games, or a Large+ creature that had it and used it.

-Really big creatures may be so big relative to the more typical area effect sizes of 20' that you can fluff it as dodging the way regular creatures dodge non-area effects. It's not a perfect explanation since they don't actually move on the board (Evasion doesn't confer free movement or commit upcoming move actions, although I recall some CAdv feat for using such effects to hide - Dive for Cove?), but fortunately big creatures are usually found in big or outdoor spaces where they are not trapped by walls in the exact space of the fireball.

[Doc Roc]

It's probably best to think of evasion as avoiding damage. Remember, this is an extraordinary ability, not a natural ability. This is easy to forget, because extraordinary has come to be synonymous with mundane, which I think is hilarious.

In other words, it doesn't need to work how we'd expect. Maybe the rogue knows the seven names of the wind, maybe the monk hardens his skin with a thought, maybe the.... Okay. So maybe the monk just dies like an overgrown spoo, but whatever. Not only is this a game, but this is a game where rogues can pick apart magical runes with a toothpick, two unfortunate frogs, and a pack of marlboros.

[OracleofWuffing]

...Maybe the monk hardens his skin with a thought...

Snnnrrrk giggle giggle giggle.

Guttermind interpretations aside, that's a fair point. First sentence under Extraordinary abilities does say that they may break the laws of physics.

[ffone]

Actually the 'goes into 4D' bit someone said above, in jest as it was, got me thinking...perhaps it's like they can indeed dodge into the ethereal plane (are there any Force effects evasion applies to?) for a split second (not long enough to pass through a wall, and don't ask me why this doesn't also help with dodging arrows and swords). Moving around on the ethereal plane isn't intrinsically magical (it's just that all the other ways to get there are), and there's no real-life ethereal plane anyway, so one might say that IF it were to exist, it'd be nonmagically possible to access it by bits.

Or perhaps a random 'extradimensional space', like tucking yourself into a nonexistent bag of holding for a split second.

(I don't actually LIKE this, b/c down this road is explaining every not-perfectly-true-to-physics aspect of DnD as 'oh yeah, more of the not-Magic-magic we call Ex abilities' with some nonilluminating explanation.)

Oh, and speaking of the Bada** Cape earlier - I think Batman Forever has a bit where he crouches under his cape to avoid a consuming fiery explosion. I'm sure it's on Youtube.

Though I'm not sure I like the B-Cape explanation....if the cape weren't resistant to the energy types I'm not sure why it would help, and if it were and did, everyone would just walk around in suits made of that stuff (Bad** Capes are invariably light and flexible). Batman has the world's greatest materials science at his disposal, but a typical medieval-fantasy L2 rogue doesn't.

Or maybe something with air currents is going on (but again, combat in a vacuum).

[Qwertystop]

To all the people who say that you can't get a perfect, no-gap, miles-wide seal between the two moving objects, I say: You don't need to. You only need to get it close enough that there is no gap large enough to fit the crushee within the 5-foot square of the crushee (since a Reflex save will not actually change your location noticably on the map).

[only1doug]

I must say, I am consistently delighted with the generally excellent tastes of my fellow forumites. Unfortunately, the fact that I know your tastes are excellent is derived from the fact that I've read most of these books. I did particularly delight in the Black Company, and much recommend his other works as well. Also, if you'ven't read anything by Jack Vance, he's actually really rather quite good.

I Hate to turn down a challange, and us Wizards have to do something while we rest in our skycastles.

The Painted Man by Peter Brett. Fantasy.
a world plagued by the attacks of demons known as corelings, which rise each night to feast upon humans. The ongoing attrition of these attacks have reduced humanity from an advanced state of technology to a 'dark age'.
Caution: 3rd book in the series hasn't been published yet, this may lead to frustration.... (certainly has in my case)

Live free or Die by John Ringo. Sci-Fi.
based on Schlock Mercenary, Live Free or Die covers the introduction of humanity to galactic society. (Set Long before the Schlock Webcomic)

[CTrees]

I alluded to it elsewhere, but after this thread started, I found the Pathfinder rules for falling/dropped objects. There's a chart and whatnot (so I won't just copy/paste), but they very simply lay out damage caused by falling objects (it's dependent upon size, composition/weight, and height), and gives the following:

Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.

It actually looks like you get a choice of how to try to hit whatever you're dropping things on (ranged touch v. provoking a Ref save, but that save is only for half(!!!)), and specifically exempts traps from those rules.

I'm sure we could come up with rules about when this is or is not realistic, but really... it's concise, it scales appropriately, and it covers most situations without seeming completely and utterly ridiculous ("I drop the moon - how are you dodging?" becomes "using the strength necessary to move the moon, I overcorrected for the weight and missed" or "well, you rolled well and were only half as atomized as I expected"). For realistic, non-cheese scenarios (dropping shrunken objects, for instance), I really like it, for the stated reasons.

[mint]

Lud-in-the-Mist

Iron Dragon's Daughter, Stations of Tide, Dragons of Babel and Dancing with Bears by Swanwick. Preferably in that order.
"The dog said bow wow" is ok too. Its a book of shorts though.

The Half Made World by Felix Gilman.

His Dark Materials by Pullman and Patrick Rothfuss books if you haven't already.

[Calimehter]

It actually looks like you get a choice of how to try to hit whatever you're dropping things on (ranged touch v. provoking a Ref save, but that save is only for half(!!!)), and specifically exempts traps from those rules.

Nice. I don't use Pathfinder, but I could see myself "porting" that over to 3.5 when I run again. Still leaves the little problem of Evasion and Improved Evasion, though.

After thinking more about it, my "conclusion" (if you want to call it that) is that the only time that using a simple mechanic to unrealistically dodge an oversized object is when simple mechanics are used to unrealistically toss the oversized object in the first place. How much of the latter you allow in your games is exactly how much trouble you are going to have trying to come up with a suitable "fluff description" for the former. If you can fluff up some wizard/hulker team tossing the moon without breaking verisimilitude, then fluffing up evasion should be a piece of cake.

[Darthteej]

This kind of bullcrap is why I converted to 4th edition.

[JadePhoenix]

This kind of bullcrap is why I converted to 4th edition.

I believe you're on the wrong forum, then.

[TroubleBrewing]

NNNNeeecccrroooooooooo...

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: Thread necromancy.