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Thread: Steam Punk Monk

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Steam Punk Monk

    I made a monk for a group that I found, and didn't know what exactly this world would be like. The DM told me that it was Steam Punk and would have guns but no magic. I figured "Okay, I'll just take a big rock with me should be fun." Well turns out I'm really squishy, and big rocks can be underpowered.

    I have taken near dieing damage each game and want to try and avoid this in the future. I've been trying how to "Steam Punk"-ise my monk without abandoning the Monk class. I figured it could have something to do with no penalties while wearing Kevlar armor and use power fists, like the pneumatic fist or the ballistic fist.

    Any advice for home brewing this kind of prestige class would be most appreciated.

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Make the monk wear a huge steam-powered mecha that uses rocket-powered fists on retractable chains as weapons?
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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    What's the level of tech in you steam punk setting? Kevlar's a bit beyond most steam punk, but early bullet-resistant vests were made of a couple dozen layers of silk (not much use today, but somewhat effective against black powder weapons, especially handguns). Spider silk would be even more effective, if you can convince your DM to allow it (but be prepared to pay, even in modern times a spider silk vest would cost millions of dollars). Neither would be of much use against blades or arrows, but a monk has other defenses for those.

    It might be worthwhile to take a more indirect approach, and focus on camouflage and charging to force melee. Flash grenades and smoke bombs might allow you to close with villains without giving them a chance to take potshots.

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    I don't particularly know what the tech lvl is in the game. In the first game he had badguys with shotguns and tower shields with drill bits on the bottom to plant it in the ground. And after the game the guy who is playing a Halo Spartan (the party was magically poofed here from anytime and place) wanted to know if he could use a six shooter but they are classified something different he said. [I got got down to 10 hp in this game]

    In the second game there was a mortar team the rest of the party was taking out while I foolishly went to help people on the battlefield. I ran into a bbeg who was dual wielding a sniper rifle and a battle axe. He also had an AC of like 27 or something, and he took three mortars to the body, dealing about 40 damage, without seeming fazing him. [I got down to 7 hp in this game]

    The party level is 4. The big damage dealers of the party are the Spartan with no energy shields and a bug Bard that is a worshiper of death metal that can do several attacks a round.

    So yeah I wish to somehow help my character at least hold his own in the world. I'm gonna talk to my DM sometime about letting me rework my character so that he has survivability. Any advice no that you have heard my tale.

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Fixed. When I heard the "steam-powered" mecha thing on a steampunk Monk on the Homebrew thread, the first thing that came to mind is this.

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    I have been thinking about what to do and have the basic idea of a monk using gun fu. In which the monk gets into melee combat to strike with the guns and deal unarmed damage.

    When firing the gun like that it deals however much the gun does plus the unarmed damage.

    That is really all I have at the moment. Any advice on how I can expand upon this line of thinking, or should I look in a different direction?

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Maybe a feat with a hefty prereq list:
    Gun Kata:
    Prerequisites: Flurry of blows, unarmed combat style (monk), wis 13, Proficiency: Firearms, Pistol Whip.
    Benefit: You can use your Flurry of Blows attack modus with two one-handed fire-arms. These fire-arms need to be equipped with a revolver-drum, spire-drum, clip or other self-loading mechanism.
    Normal: You cannot use guns in combination with Flurry of Blows.

    Pistol Whip: (WoW the roleplaying game, Sword and Sorcery publishing)
    Benefit: You are proficient in the use of firearms as melee weapons without damaging them. A firearm used in this way deals bludgeoning damage depending on size, as shown on the table below:

    Firearm size: Damage (light) Damage (medium)
    Light 1d3 1d4
    One-handed 1d4 1d6
    Two-handed 1d6 1d8

    Normal: A character without this feat may still use a firearm as a melee weapon, though she takes normal nonproficient penalties and the firearm itself takes the same damage as it deals.
    Special: Fighters van select Pistol Whip as one of their fighter bonus feats.

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    When firing the gun like that it deals however much the gun does plus the unarmed damage.
    Stop me if I'm wrong, but surely that would produce many AoO chances against you? Might wanna address that first........

    @ Dryad:
    Nice with the gun kata thing. Any ideas where I can find a Grammaton Cleric PC/PrC btw? Made one for SpyCraft few years back, but games move on and it's pitifully obsolete now.
    Last edited by Veklim; 2011-05-09 at 07:59 AM.
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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    I'm sure I've seen a Grammaton cleric somewhere on these boards. But I can't find it now.
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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Perhaps reverse this into a tech armor instead of magitech?

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    I've been thinking about this and I want to try and create a Gun Monk base class for this steam punk setting. I've been thinking of making it maneuver based and creating some maneuvers based off of using a gun.

    Here's an idea I have for a lvl 1 class feature. Instead of Stunning Fist the Gun Monk can take Shooting Fist. It must be declared before use just like StF but deals damage based on IUS + Str + gun damage.

    And here are a couple of gun based maneuvers I've been thinking of. {Working Titles}
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    {Fist in a Bullet} - Deal unarmed damage at range basically.
    {Deflection Stance} - Deflection bonus bases on lvl.
    {Curve the Bullet} - Player can choose the flight path of the bullet which can change a Full Covered opponent Un-Covered, but it is limited to the ranges of the gun.
    {Double Range Stance} - The character can adopt this stance to double the ranges of his gun. If the player takes more then a 5 ft step he looses the effects of this stance.
    {Dove wings flutter} - A boost to give a character improve speed or reflexes. Lasts for one round.
    {Angry Crow Takes flight} - Jump into the air and get a +# to your attack that round


    Any criticism/opinions are welcome. I'm kind of stuck on how to proceed with this idea.
    Last edited by SilverSavio; 2011-06-04 at 10:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    Maybe a feat with a hefty prereq list:
    Gun Kata:
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is a reference to Equilibrium. I personally haven't seen it (although I really want to), but from what I know about it I think it might be a decent inspiration for a gun monk.

    I just googled "Gun Kata" and apparently that sort of thing has appeared in quite a number of movies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_fu
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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Great for a gun monk yes, not so good for the steam punk setting. Equilibrium is a dystopic future of severe grey architecture, subtle high-technology and the outlawing of emotions, very very far away from most steampunk settings which are usually more organic feeling and dirty.
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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Yes I believe that was a reference to Equilibrium. Although now that I think about it Gun Kata could be turned into a Stance. Giving a bonus based on level maybe to all attack rolls and AC bonus possibly...

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Yups; it was an Equilibrium-inspired feat. What with the 'lawful' and martial arts nature, I thought something along those lines would be perfect for a steam-punk monk.
    I wasn't keeping the setting of the movie in mind; merely martial arts combined with guns.

    I wouldn't increase the gun-damage for monks to something similar to their unarmed strike damage die progression, though. That could be quite powerful (depending on how strong fire-arms are in your setting. Take a standard WoW d20 handgun; it deals 3d6 damage, so an upgrade to 2d10 (at end level) is not too brilliant, of course.)
    The main reason, however, is the following: Guns can be enchanted, upgraded, improved. They can fire improved ammo. All in all: Guns, like any artificial weapon, can be modified to fit the wielder's desires.
    A fist is a fist. Greater Magic Fang is the best thing that can ever happen to it, so the increased damage die is pretty much to make up for that.

    Oh, and a side note: There are probably feats out there that make you not cause AoO's when shooting a ranged weapon in melee range. Put that one down as a monk bonus feat, if you find it, and make it only apply to firearms for monk bonus feat purposes. ;)

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    I wouldn't increase the gun-damage for monks to something similar to their unarmed strike damage die progression, though. That could be quite powerful (depending on how strong fire-arms are in your setting. Take a standard WoW d20 handgun; it deals 3d6 damage, so an upgrade to 2d10 (at end level) is not too brilliant, of course.)
    Oh I wouldn't want to do that. I was just thinking of a class feature where you dealt damage in melee combat without provoking AoO kinda like Stunning Fist. Like the Monk smacks the enemy with the gun and pulls the trigger. Or misses and wastes a shot. But I'm a newb at thinking of these things, so I think I'm missing some important concepts on how to make a class.

    The main reason, however, is the following: Guns can be enchanted, upgraded, improved. They can fire improved ammo. All in all: Guns, like any artificial weapon, can be modified to fit the wielder's desires.
    A fist is a fist. Greater Magic Fang is the best thing that can ever happen to it, so the increased damage die is pretty much to make up for that.
    And I would think about those, but the DM didn't give me much info for what his world was like, just that there was no magic, and steam punk.

    Thanks for the reply, you have given me something new to ponder on.

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    You haven't mentioned how well you did about damaging things (quite possibly because you were busy trying to not die), so I'll just address what you've mentioned: nearly dying every game.

    Monks are indeed very squishy. It would be useful to know what your actual build is (ability scores, race, feats, basically everything on your character sheet) so we have something to work with. Bottom line is: monks need too many ability scores, have lame class features, and are going without weapons or armor in a game that only allows you to upgrade those numbers using weapons and armor. The monk class gets lots of abilities, but at best they replace weapons and armor, while other characters have abilities on top of those weapons and armor*.

    First things to do are shore up your hit points and AC. If your group thinks of the monk as a combat class, you would do well to try and get the DM to give you a d10 hit die and full base attack bonus, like any other combat class (while you're at it, see if you can get monks to use 1 1/2 their strength modifier on unarmed attacks, something any other melee character can get). You should also see if you can get some sort of level based defense bonus going on, and note that the monk should be using the highest or second highest bonus available. Failing that, use a Wand of Mage Armor for a solid +4 bonus (you can use the Use Magic Device skill, take one level of wizard or sorcerer, or use the Arcane Schooling feat). You might also want a Wand of Shield for another +4 AC, but unlike Mage Armor's 1 hour duration, Shield will only last 1 minute, making it likely you'll have to waste turns in combat to use it. 1st level wands are only 750gp, so you should be able to afford them easily enough, unless your DM has banned magic or something. For Shield, you might try a 2nd level wand at 1,500gp, giving you more room to buff up before combat, but this is very dependent on your game style. I'm guessing from the wacky nature of your foes and independent builds that your group will tend to rush into combat and not work together, which is why I'm suggesting bringing and using your own wands, but if I'm wrong then go for it.

    Next, your damage. You can take Improved Natural Attack to increase your unarmed damage by one step, and use the Enlarge Person spell to get bigger, and thus deal more damage, after that. I would expect a Powerfist style weapon to do the same thing, so with a little effort you could be swinging around 2d6 or 3d6 on your "unarmed" attacks. You start with a 1d8, which increases to 2d6 with the feat, 3d6 with a powerfist, and 4d6 when under Enlarge Person (damage for larger weapons). Just be careful of your attack bonus: Flurry of Blows gives you a -2 penalty on all attacks for the round, and if the DM won't increase your BAB, you'll come to know where the nickname "flurry of misses" originated.

    There are a number of cheap magic items you can use for a little extra damage here and there. The Magic Item Compendium has Brute Gauntlets, which only cost 500gp and work for a few rounds per day, and the Elixir of Flaming fists, a pricey but effective way to get an extra 1d6 for a few minutes. Back in core, you could try a Wand of Produce Flame, giving you the same effect as the elixir but with a "bulk discount." As with the Wand of Shield I suggested above, Enlarge Person and Elixir/Wand of Produce Flame are all 1-3 minute buffs, so if you do try using them, be careful that you don't spend the entire fight buffing instead of fighting.

    Now, to address the "steampunk" setting (that apparently includes full sniper rifles and spartan armor?) Basically: refluffing is your friend. A Wand of Mage Armor could actually be a high tech powered bodysuit that stiffens when subject to attack. An Enlarge Person effect could come from a partial exoskeletal armor that powers up and extends your reach and strength on command. Flaming fists are, well those are just flaming fists, nothing special there. These are more futuristic than your usual steampunk, but so is spartan armor, so I'm calling it a wash. The important thing is that as far as the rules are concerned, they have a limited number of charges and have to be activated beforehand, which means they're affordable enough for a low level character.

    The most important thing is that you're not having fun. It's not your fault that the monk class is poorly designed, and it's only compounded by the fact that your enemies are using weapons it was not designed to fight against. If your DM resists any changes or ideas I've suggested, the only thing you should have to compare against is the other characters. If he has a problem with giving you full BAB or a defense bonus? The bug-guy has multiple attacks at a certain bonus, and I'd bet the attack bonus and damage both higher than your flurry of blows, which isn't fair. The spartan didn't really pay anything for his huge armor bonus to AC, and you're not actually getting any benefit out of not wearing any (somehow I doubt his speed is reduced, assuming it's "powered"), so it's not fair for your AC to suck. Basically, the monk class isn't fair: it gives up the bonuses from upgradeable weapons and armor and ends up weaker than any class that uses them, while the other players are using natural weapon builds and custom futuristic armor, so your DM should help you make it fair by letting the monk play on the same field.

    *One class feature you can make easy use of is Deflect Arrows: guns are ranged weapons, so you can deflect bullets just fine. Unless they count as siege weaponry or spell effects, in which case I would ask why your enemies are dual wielding the equivalent of medieval mortars and free spells.
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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Monks are indeed very squishy. It would be useful to know what your actual build is (ability scores, race, feats, basically everything on your character sheet) so we have something to work with.
    My Race is Half-Orc, Monk 4. Ability Scores of Str 21, Dex 18, Con 16 Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 13. The feats I had due to miss information due to the Sword and Fist book are Weapon Focus (Big Rock), Monkey Grip, Deflect Arrow, and Stunning Fist. The damage he gave the 200+ rock was a d8, x2 for crit.
    Last edited by SilverSavio; 2011-06-08 at 09:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Well; the stats seem more than okay (I'd have personally switched your dex and wis). I'm a bit at a loss about the 'big rock' thing, wondering... Why?
    I feel pretty much the same about monkey-grip. It's really not that good; it allows you to wield a weapon one size category greater than normal.

    I assume the Big Rock is a two-handed weapon? In that case, you could throw it at a +7 damage bonus.
    Or you could re-hash your character to use other kinds of throwing weapons. Like javelins, for instance. At 1d6+5, it's still not all that bad.
    But what you really want to do is get in melee, of course. And not with a big rock as a weapon.

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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    Well; the stats seem more than okay (I'd have personally switched your dex and wis).
    Me too, but otherwise nice stat line dude...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    I'm a bit at a loss about the 'big rock' thing, wondering... Why?
    Yes indeed, should have gone Unarmed for the focus imho.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    I feel pretty much the same about monkey-grip. It's really not that good; it allows you to wield a weapon one size category greater than normal.
    Again yes, I agree, but with a house rule tweaking for monkey grip and the use of oversized 2wf, there's fun to be had with a fighter/barbarian build running about with a greatsword and bastard sword. For a monk though, there's no point, your unarmed damage will outstrip just about any weapon you could use, even with monkey grip.
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    Default Re: Steam Punk Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverSavio View Post
    My Race is Half-Orc, Monk 4. Ability Scores of Str 21, Dex 18, Con 16 Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 13. The feats I had due to miss information due to the Sword and Fist book are Weapon Focus (Big Rock), Monkey Grip, Deflect Arrow, and Stunning Fist. The damage he gave the 200+ rock was a d8, x2 for crit.
    Ah, well there's the problem. I see two horrible feats and a ruling against your build. Yeah, that would make you suck. You've got enough stats to pull off monk, so that's good, but it doesn't invalidate any of the stuff I mentioned above: you still need something to increase your armor and damage to the same level as other characters. Getting access to Mage Armor, Shield, and Enlarge Person should be top priorities.

    I'm not sure what's going on with the rock damage ruling. If anything, he should have ruled that you can't use it at all, but letting you use it normally with only 1d8 damage makes no sense. For one, you shouldn't be able to wield a 200lb rock, since your light load is only 153lbs. From the way it's presented, I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure the reprinted large improvised weapon rules in Complete Warrior wouldn't allow a medium creature to wield something weighing over 50lbs. If we pretend a 100lb rock is officially a two handed weapon sized for a large creature, then we can use Monkey Grip to wield it in two hands at a -2 penalty as a medium creature. The 100lb rock should deal 4d6 damage. But that still doesn't let you throw it: throwing the rock would have a -4 penalty and range increment of 5' (max range 25'), for a total of -6 on attacks and not enough range to matter.

    If you want to throw rocks well then you'll either need a very focused improvised weapon build, or the Rock Hurling feat from Races of Stone. That lets you throw 50lb rocks for 2d6 damage with a range of 15', but you need to be large size or have the powerful build trait, so you'd need to retcon your Orc into a Goliath. Then you could take Improved Rock Hurling and get a decent range, but you'd need more strength than you have now. Or if you got to something with large size you could go Hulking Hurler, but that takes BAB 5+ so you'd be waiting quite a while.

    Aside from Weapon Focus and Monkey Grip already being bad feats (google around if you want the specifics), they won't let you throw rocks. If you need a ranged weapon, Dryad had the right plan: just use Javelins. You could also use a Sling if you need a little more range. Either of them will add your strength bonus, and they won't penalize your attack into nothingness. Monks aren't ranged attackers.

    Feats: Weapon Focus and Monkey Grip have already gotta go, but let's look at the monk feats first. Your first level options are Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist. The grapple rules can be very powerful when used correctly, but a lot of groups don't like to bother, and monks have a BAB disadvantage, so it might not be useful. Stunning fist uses a fort save which means it's not very useful against melee targets, but it also fuels a lot of other feats and even some items, so it's a fine choice. Your second level options are Deflect Arrows, Combat Reflexes, or you could try Fiery Fist from the Players Handbook 2. This depends on your DM's ruling on deflecting bullets: it's perfecly legal, but if he won't allow it and all your enemies are using guns, then you're better off with something else. Combat Reflexes gives more AoOs, which are basically free attacks, so that's pretty awesome. Fiery Fist is pretty lame, but an extra 1d6 on a full attack is still something, and if your enemies never provoke AoOs, then it'll be a lot more useful than Combat Reflexes.

    If you want to focus on Stunning Fist, you should take Ability Focus: Stunning Fist at first level for a +2 on your save DCs, followed by Pain Touch (from Complete Warrior) at 3rd, which will nauseate them for one round after the stun ends. In combat you move and stun, then full attack while their stunned, then move and stun while they're nauseated, and so on, hoepfully stun-locking them for the whole fight. If you do this, don't take Firey Fist, because your stun uses are better used for stunning. You might consider Pharoh's Fist (Sandstorm), which lets you also stun adjacent enemies, though it might count as a separate ability and not stack with your focus and pain touch.

    If you want to focus on beating people up, then... huh, can't find much support for it, what a surprise. For the Monk feats just stick with Stunning Fist (later you can buy some Ki Straps and burn them for healing or something), and either Deflect Arrows if it stops bullets or Fiery Fist if it doesn't. Aside from Improved Natural Attack at 6th level (which you want no matter what you're doing), there's not much for straight up bashing. This is one instance where Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) isn't the worst option available, as most of the feats you want require more BAB than you have right now. Improved Toughness gives an extra 1 hp at every level, and you can take it a 1st. Delay Potion (Complete Mage) lets you drink a potion then activate it for free up to 1 hour later, which would really help if you take the potion buffing route.

    Alternate Class Features: most of theses get pretty fancy, but there's two simple choices worth noting. There's the Decisive Strike I mentioned earlier, and also Holy Strike from Complete Champion. Holy Strike would give you an extra 1d6 against evil creatures all the time, and you don't need the feature it replaces if you're wielding an enchanted battlefist of some sort.

    Blarg. It's really hard to find anything powerful to do with a monk that doesn't require tons of magic items or involve trip/grapple/AoO abuse. Even one or two levels of sorcerer would let you cast Blood Wind (Spell Compendium) to "throw" your fists a few times per day (or you could buy 1st level wands of it, but again, no idea how much magic you're allowed to have/use/purchase). My apologies for not offering very "steampunk" solutions, but aside from my skepticism, it's not something I think needs to be homebrewed very hard. If you'd started out wanting to play a gun-monk, then sure, but it's not worth homebrewing an entire class as a plan B when it shouldn't be too hard to fix the plan A.
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