A new twist in the Haley/Sabine opposites dynamic.

[Crisis21]

*Lots of good, well thought out points*

I think the relationship is only doomed if you think of it as a relationship between equals, who each ultimately want the other's good. I think Nale is doomed, but the relationship will survive just fine. It's not meant to be "healthy".

All very well thought out and reasoned.

It is very hard to define the strength of an Evil relationship like Sabine and Nale's because they operate on a completely different dynamic than what most of us are used to.

As far as "healthy" goes, the definition is a bit ambiguous. I can definitively tell that some relationships are healthy and some aren't, but I can't define where the line is because not only is it very blurry, but I'm sure it also moves when no one is watching.

However, Sabine herself makes the claim that their relationship is healthy in this comic. She also pretty strongly implies (if not outright states) that their relationship's strength is maintained through the ritual sacrifice of others.

As for Sabine being an equal in the relationship, that ship sailed all the way back in comic #62. She outright tells Haley that she was "sent to serve as Nale's concubine and advisor", both of which are inherently subordinate positions.

[Souhiro]

This is GREAT!!!

So, the Nail/Sabine relationship is more... phisical, more "Contact" without draining a few levels from Nail, while the Haley/Elan relationship is pure love.

[Crisis21]

This is GREAT!!!

So, the Nail/Sabine relationship is more... phisical, more "Contact" without draining a few levels from Nail, while the Haley/Elan relationship is pure love.

Oh, please. Haley and Elan have plenty of "contact" in their relationship.

[veti]

All very well thought out and reasoned.

Why, thank you.

It's just a theory, like yours. I would find it narratively satisfying because it's based in the culture I'm familiar with, but I suspect that's not true of everyone here.

However, Sabine herself makes the claim that their relationship is healthy in this comic. She also pretty strongly implies (if not outright states) that their relationship's strength is maintained through the ritual sacrifice of others.

Yeah... I wouldn't take either of those pronouncements at face value. As we've agreed, "healthy" from Sabine's perspective doesn't necessarily mean what we'd think of as healthy. If my theory is right, then Sabine's ideal would involve a very unhealthy degree of dependence on Nale's side. And the "ritual sacrifice" thing might just be one of the tricks she pulls to force Nale to affirm his commitment to her.

As for Sabine being an equal in the relationship, that ship sailed all the way back in comic #62. She outright tells Haley that she was "sent to serve as Nale's concubine and advisor", both of which are inherently subordinate positions.

Subordinate in theory, but there are plenty of stories of strong-willed concubines and advisors wielding great power over their (often unwitting) superiors.

In modern culture, we talk about "the vamp" and "the femme fatale". In late medieval times, "the succubus" occupied precisely the same niche in storytelling. I don't think that's a coincidence, I think Sabine is a superb return to the roots of her archetype.

[Crisis21]

Why, thank you.

It's just a theory, like yours. I would find it narratively satisfying because it's based in the culture I'm familiar with, but I suspect that's not true of everyone here.

That's actually a good summary of why I made my original argument the way I did.

Yeah... I wouldn't take either of those pronouncements at face value. As we've agreed, "healthy" from Sabine's perspective doesn't necessarily mean what we'd think of as healthy. If my theory is right, then Sabine's ideal would involve a very unhealthy degree of dependence on Nale's side. And the "ritual sacrifice" thing might just be one of the tricks she pulls to force Nale to affirm his commitment to her.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that that statement goes either way, deception or complete truth. The only way any of us will know for sure is if we get word from The Giant.

Subordinate in theory, but there are plenty of stories of strong-willed concubines and advisors wielding great power over their (often unwitting) superiors.

And many of them have the strong-willed concubine/advisor also biting off more than they can chew with their manipulations and getting exiled or executed for it when they are discovered. Again, I'd be willing to believe any such scenario as few wouldn't fit the dynamic as presented. Also again, it's all speculation without word of The Giant.

In modern culture, we talk about "the vamp" and "the femme fatale". In late medieval times, "the succubus" occupied precisely the same niche in storytelling. I don't think that's a coincidence, I think Sabine is a superb return to the roots of her archetype.

*Brain skips a groove* Wait, Haley is in a role analogous to that of a 'femme fatale', the heroic analog of course. Could this be the other way that The Giant hinted at the two being opposites?

[veti]

I'm perfectly willing to believe that that statement goes either way, deception or complete truth. The only way any of us will know for sure is if we get word from The Giant.

Well, I'm pretty sure we'll see some kind of final denouement for the LG (and this present arc isn't it), when the question will probably be answered in-story rather than in any direct message.

Again, I'd be willing to believe any such scenario as few wouldn't fit the dynamic as presented. Also again, it's all speculation without word of The Giant.

Fair enough.

*Brain skips a groove* Wait, Haley is in a role analogous to that of a 'femme fatale', the heroic analog of course. Could this be the other way that The Giant hinted at the two being opposites?

How is Haley a ff? Surely, that role implies using her sexuality to deceive and manipulate men-folk into doing something they wouldn't have done if they'd been thinking with their upper brain. I don't see Haley doing anything like that.

[Crisis21]

How is Haley a ff? Surely, that role implies using her sexuality to deceive and manipulate men-folk into doing something they wouldn't have done if they'd been thinking with their upper brain. I don't see Haley doing anything like that.

Haley isn't a femme fatale, but she is an action girl, which is the typically heroic kind of empowered female in storytelling.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

Can I sig this?

It would be my honor.

[zmasterofjersey]

I really like the thread and everyone's points. I also love it isn't another celestial vs infernal/abyssal opposite thing.

Something I find that could be another opposite, or just a case of over thinking on my part. It kind of goes with everyone else's good points.

In the "Jailbreak strips" 769-774, Ian implies that Haley is controlling the party by subtlety manipulating the "stuffed shirts." This is exactly what Sabine, one of the archfiends underlings, is doing.

The emphasis is really put on in strip 772, where Ian implies that Elan is a plant that is trying to control Haley to get to Ian. Where again this opposite thing is doubled because Sabine is again controlling Nale, at least in my point of view. The opposite is being that in the OotS Elan is the man who isn't really controlling Haley, but in the LG Sabine is the woman/demon who is actually controlling Nale. Where his comment "Thats how people like that gain your trust. They get you to you fall in love with them!" Elan again isn't doing that because he genuinely loves Haley and vice versa and they trusted each other even before they openly stated that they loved each other, (around 400). Sabine is doing exactly that, earning Nale's trust by making him love her and you can see that he really does by how jealous he gets in 794 when she gets to involved with Elan's escape kiss.

Again makes sense in my mind, but could just be over thinking.

[PetterTomBos]

For a long time, I've been thinking Nale and Sabine's relationship should have weakened in order to mirror Haley and Elan's strengthened relationship.

But you might be overanalyzing a one-off joke. Then again, it could be leading to a complete split when Nale finds out she's been using him. Either way, good analysis.

Imagine if that happends, and in the panel beside them Elan propose to Haley! (Or Haley propose to elan for that matter ;) )

[Crisis21]

Imagine if that happends, and in the panel beside them Elan propose to Haley! (Or Haley propose to elan for that matter ;) )

This would be made of pure win.