Help our (Core) Monk increase his viability

[ZevTheStray]

As is said in the title, our campaign is being run core(and srd) only, for the sake of simplicity . Our groups is a rather high powered one, with a wizard, a druid, a cleric, a bard, and our monk. As of right now, at level three, our monk is able to keep up with the dmg output of the druid's animal companion . I am, however, concerned about his viability in later levels. As far as I know, monks are a rather underpowered class, and as I am helping my girlfriend, the dm, grow into her role, I am hoping that we can get some more input on different ways to increase his power to keep him in line with the rest of the group.

I am aware of the difficulty with the task, as we have three full casters (one of which has a mini fighter pet ), but I'm just looking to increase his power enough to where he doesn't end up feeling lackluster later on down the line.

[Kantolin]

While probably not the best options, I'd suggest aiming him towards one of two psionic prestige classes: Either the Psionic Fist, or the War Mind.

Neither is the best class, mind you, but they both can help a monk while retaining a lot of the flavor, depending on what kind of monk he's aiming for. These will allow him to, among other things, take hustle (or Psionic lion's charge) so he can move and flurry, which is if you ask me the most irksome limitation to a monk. ^_^

They both limit flurry. Psionic fist keeps boosting his unarmed damage, while war mind's BAB improvements work as being almost strictly better sans greater flurry at monk 11, in which war mind has other perks.

[Jude_H]

Support casting is what makes Wizards scary. It's also what lets Monks beat things up.

edit: Also, if you have a Monk in the party, play like there's a Monk in the party. If the Monk wants to do the scouting or use sweet acrobatic skills to do something another party member could do with a spell slot, the party gets that much extra endurance if they let the monk do it.

[OracleofWuffing]

Search for monk threads on this forum, there's one or two that'll give you a few suggestions.

Since you want to keep it core, the most direct routes involve the DM making concessions to the Monk class. Frequent suggestions are a d10 hit die, full BAB, Flurry as a standard action, and "wraps" or some other means to enchant unarmed strikes at the same cost as regular weapons. (And also a king's bounty in partially charged wands and the means to pump UMD to useable levels, but that's... Well, that's just that.)

I know it, along with Tome of Battle, are outside of strict core and thus not applicable to your situation, but the Tashalatora feat is available online, and psionics fit well with monks. Just stay away from the Soulknife.

[Veyr]

SRD-only and no homebrew or houserules makes this impossible. There is literally nothing that can be done to save this character, aside from getting out of the Monk class ASAP (Monk 1 & 2 have enough class features that a Monk 2/something(s)-else 18 works out OK).

If you're looking for a Monk-like character who is actually good, even without Tashalatora a Psychic Warrior could fit the bill. Refluff Claws of the Beast as unarmed strikes, and you should be good to go. I don't think Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 is a great choice, though, since the two Monk levels don't add a whole lot.

[Telonius]

Core only - does that include psionics? If not, that limits your options tremendously, as far as damage output is concerned.

Ki Focus Wounding Quarterstaff is probably going to be your best bet for weapon enhancements. Theory: treat the Con damage as bonus damage; this plays to your "extra attacks" strength. (The damage actually tends to scale with level, as higher-CR foes tend to have more HD. EDIT: Yes, other classes can get this too; but we're trying to help this particular Monk squeeze every bit of damage he possibly can).

You can make a semi-decent tripper/disarmer if you get a reliable means of Enlarge Person. It won't be as good as a full-BAB class, but your group doesn't have one of those anyway.

[Psyren]

Nerf everyone else down to his level. Be sure he knows he is the reason you're doing this, so that the resulting mixture of guilt and peer pressure keep him from even glancing at the monk for the rest of his days.

...Or Psionics. Psionics work too.

[ZevTheStray]

Core only - does that include psionics? If not, that limits your options tremendously, as far as damage output is concerned.

As far as I understand, my DM is a little skeptical about using the psionic rules, because none of us are very familiar with the rulebooks. I'll look over the psionic material on the SRD and hopefully we can reach a positive stance.

If not, I like the idea's posted above, namely, the DM concessions on giving the monk a higher HD and Full BAB.

[ZevTheStray]

Nerf everyone else down to his level. Be sure he know he is the reason you're doing this, so that the resulting mixture of guilt and peer pressure keep him from even glancing at the monk for the rest of his days.

...Or Psionics. Psionics work too.

I would like to share that the two of us (myself and the DM) have yet to stop chuckling at this

We're looking at the psionic classes atm

[ericgrau]

The casters may actually be a good thing. Mage armor, greater magic weapon/fang, heroism, enlarge person, etc. Shillelagh only functions for the druid's own weapons but the monk can grab some shillelagh oil instead. Likewise potions of enlarge person don't hurt for grappling.

Also remember that grapple damage is equal to unarmed strike damage and most other things deal greatly reduced damage in a grapple. Thus the monk should engage in a grapple when possible, even against things with a higher grapple modifier. Otherwise he'll deal more damage with a weapon (and later with a magic weapon). That's not ideal compared to more focused weapon classes, but at least it's better than using unarmed strikes against non-grappled foes.

Check out this confused DM:
http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums.../t-314426.html

[Veyr]

As far as I understand, my DM is a little skeptical about using the psionic rules, because none of us are very familiar with the rulebooks. I'll look over the psionic material on the SRD and hopefully we can reach a positive stance.

The Psionics system is pretty simple. You're a spontaneous caster, but instead of discrete spell slots, you have Power Points. You spend these to "manifest" (read: cast) Psionic Powers. It's basically like any CRPG or video game that uses Mana.

Psionics is generally far more balanced that spellcasting, especially the rules in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (which is what the SRD has; Complete Psionic is mostly crap). Three things to note:

1. Whereas spells scale automatically but have caps (e.g. Fireball does 1d6 Fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6)), powers scale based on Augmentation, which is spending extra Power Points on them, but are not capped (Energy Ball does 1d6 energy damage per Power Point (no maximum). This is basically as if you had to use Heighten Spell on your Fireball in order to get that extra damage, but you could heighten it all the way to 9th.
2. However, you may never spend more Power Points than your Manifester level! This is crucial. A 17th level Psion can spend 17 Power Points on Energy Ball (a 4th-level Power, but Augmented to the same cost as a 9th), and do 17d6 damage. A 7th level Psion could not do this. Only the Overchannel feat and the Wild Surge class feature can change this (and only then in very limited ways).
3. All Psionic Creatures can gain "Psionic Focus" by Concentrating. If you have Psionic Focus, you can expend it on a number of things: by default, for example, you can expend Psionic Focus to "take-15" on a Concentration check. One of the things you need to expend Psionic Focus in order to do is to use a Metapsionic Feat. This means that unless you have some method of having multiple Psionic Foci, you can only use a single Metapsionic Feat on a given Power.

If not, I like the idea's posted above, namely, the DM concessions on giving the monk a higher HD and Full BAB.

It won't do even remotely enough, just fair warning.

[ericgrau]

Looking at it another way, what if you gave the barbarian unarmed strike damage progression and flurry (but only when he's not wearing armor). What good would that do him? Little or nothing, ya. He's still gonna swing his greatsword and wear armor. Yet in most ways he's better than the "boosted" monk at hitting thanks to that weapon and armor proficiency. Unless you actually use your class features there's no point to adding more.

Loading up on buffs from the party casters and grappling OTOH is one way (taking advantage of your higher damage and ability to regrapple even those who escape; not so much your BAB). Triple tripping is another way. And there are others depending on the campaign. But if the player wants to swing and deal damage without getting buffed through the roof, it's time to play another class like a barbarian, something from psionics, or etc.

[Hecuba]

It won't do even remotely enough, just fair warning.

Core only, it might keep up with the bard if they're not pushing battlefield control (that is, if they're particularly spoony). Maybe. Full BAB and flurry as standard means you should at least be able to put out "decent" damage.

But yeah, there's a druid in the party. Have fun with that.

[TroubleBrewing]

Leap off a cliff and roll PsyWar or Swordsage.

Monks are awful. Keep players away from them.

[/thread]

[Hecuba]

Leap off a cliff and roll PsyWar or Swordsage.

Monks are awful. Keep players away from them.

[/thread]

Core and SRD only, leery of psionics. [thread]

[Eldariel]

Grappling is kind of niché though. It relies on:
- Opponent not having massively higher Grapple-check (+1 is fine, +5 not so much): generally you want to avoid anything around your level with at least one more size than you, or your size but full BAB and HDs ahead of you.
- There only being one melee opponent in the encounter: if there are multiples, making yourself lose your Dex-bonus to AC against the rest is decidedly a bad idea (though I guess it works as a form of drawing attention to yourself by making you an easy target).
- Opponents not having Free Movement or similar (granted, it's kinda rare among monsters though e.g. Spider Eater has it, and there's incorporeals and such, but it's relatively available for higher level NPCs at 10 min/level on 4th level slot from 3 divine lists & Bard).

I prefer tripping largely because it only has problems with #1 (and lesser problems at that; being a plain Strength-check, Monk's Medium BAB is no longer a hindrance compared to many creatures), as Free Movement doesn't matter for tripping and tripping doesn't in any ways decrease your defenses (on the contrary, bolstering them). Doesn't have the Unarmed Strike benefits, of course, but being superior in general should make up for missing out on the class-specific benefits.


But yeah, seriously, give him a Psychic Warrior. That's probably the archetype he really wants to play anyways (and if you gave him Tashalatora; basically has a meaningless prerequisite feat called "Monastic Training", 5 Autohypnosis & 5 Concentration, and stacks a Psionic Class with Monk-levels for Monk AC Bonus, Flurry & Unarmed damage) - the whole Mind Over Matter Unarmed Badass. Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 would be quite adequate, most likely.

[TroubleBrewing]

Core and SRD only, leery of psionics. [thread]

*Facepalm* I need to read the entire OP before opening my big mouth...

But seriously. Psionics are in the SRD. Psychic Warrior is the way to go here.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I know it's a new system, but psionics are about as simple as it gets. Slap on magic transparency and you have a really obvious system. Plus, it reflavors into ki so easily. Hustle (gives you a free move action) and psionic lion's charge (full attack at end of charge) are just the things one might have wanted to do as a monk.

[Valameer]

I am, however, concerned about his viability in later levels.

I am helping my girlfriend, the dm, grow into her role, I am hoping that we can get some more input on different ways to increase his power to keep him in line with the rest of the group.

This is an easier problem to tackle as the DM than it is as a player.

Just make sure the monk gets a few cool magic items that keep him in line with where you want him to be. A set of special monk-only dragon fist-things that makes unarmed attacks more powerful. Monk-only bells that increase AC and make jumps comparable to in-combat flight, etc.

You could also design a unique prestige class that might entice the player, and have the most prestigious monks in the world subscribe to this style. Something like the Order of the Dragonmonks. Double unarmed damage on a flying kick manouver. Allow full attacks after movement. d12 hit dice.

Boost the monk to a good damage dealer / survivor. They don't have to be earth shattering like a caster, but they should be able to kick butt in combat.

[Zylle]

As the DM in question, I should probably clarify a few things...

Psionics are of course allowed, they're part of the SRD. No one expressed any interest in using them however, and if someone in the group did want to use them, of course I would familiarize myself with them.

I do allow other books and homebrew, but only on a case-by-case basis. And yes, part of the reason for that is to keep the rules as simple as possible, first-time DM and all that stuff. However, it was also because I know my players, and my two "powergamers" are the only ones likely to use extra books (thereby increasing the power gap between themselves and the non-optimized characters even further). My other three players, the monk included, aren't powergamers. And that's okay. I want them to enjoy the game in their own way, and I've already homebrewed a few items for the monk and the bard to help them keep up with the rest of the party.

I admit I'm also uncomfortable with telling the monk "these are the feats/items/features you need in order to not fail at being a monk." If he expresses interest in getting some cool non-standard class features, that's great. If he's happy with his character, I'd rather not tell him it's not good enough because it isn't an optimal build.

That said, if anyone with experience in playing (or DM-ing for) a monk can suggest some good items, either homebrew or otherwise, that can keep him feeling powerful in combat, that would be much appreciated :)

[Eldariel]

I admit I'm also uncomfortable with telling the monk "these are the feats/items/features you need in order to not fail at being a monk." If he expresses interest in getting some cool non-standard class features, that's great. If he's happy with his character, I'd rather not tell him it's not good enough because it isn't an optimal build.

Well, the big thing to know about Monk is:
- It looks really cool and really strong by first glimpse.
- It covers two distinct archetypes the other classes don't really get into (Unarmed Brawler, Mind Over Matter Monastic Badass).
- In reality, it's extremely weak early game and gets only slightly better compared to other warrior types as it goes on; it gets even worse compared to casters which you have a party full of
- Many of the archetypes people want to describe with Monk don't actually work out that well as Monks.

In other words, it's a deceptive class that might make a player think the character he wants to play would be most logical as a Monk even though that's not a case. As such, it's very well possible that he'll play few sessions as the Monk, realize that his character isn't doing what he wants it to, and have to rework everything; that would be rather anti-climatic.

The particular issue I'm worried about is what this ancient EnWorld thread is about; basically, he plays a Monk and realizes that one spell slot from a Druid contributes more than his entire character (the rest of the thread is full of bad, patchwork "advice" on how to fix this; it's probably not worth your time to read it - this is from the time before people actually understood the system so other people going ballistic on the idea of "classes are imbalanced" is logical enough).


This is why I'd try to figure out what his character concept is and trying to help him play the concept instead of a class. More than likely, Monk 2/Psychic Warrior would be closer to the character concept he wants (the only two non-Core feats this would need are exceedingly simple and it would be basically Monk, except mechanically sound), and more importantly it would get enough unique goodies to have the leeway to keep up with the rest of the party.

Of course, making them fight some Monks and giving some Monk-specific custom items as loot would work as a patchwork fix if he's absolutely determined to play a Monk; might help him keep up in at least brawling compared to Druid's summons, animal companion and the Druid himself.

[Woodzyowl]

This page is the [/ srd psionic monk thread] page. You can modify some feats and some classes, but at least 10 psionic fist and 6 monk are required for this kind of build. It focuses on getting metamorphosis and expansion to become some ridiculous humongous animal hitting for 12d8+10 or so per hit. With flurry. I played a non-srd ultimate monk and had him making like 500 points of damage per swing at level 20. I'm not a munchkin, what are you talking about?

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm not a munchkin, what are you talking about?

That's called optimization. Munchkinery would be if you did that with four extra zeroes per swing.

[prufock]

Monk is a class that really needs shiny goodies. Low level and SRD-only limit the available shiny goodies.

Size - You'll want an item to increase your size. Potions of Enlarge Person (50gp per potion at caster level 1) work. A custom [item] of Enlarge Person is only Spell Level 1 x Caster Level 1 x 1800 gp for Command Word activation, divide by 5/charges if you can use it limited number of times per day. That's 360gp for a 1/day item, 1 minute duration. Or 720gp for 2/day, about 1070 for 3/day, 1440 for 4/day. At level 3 you have 2700gp.

Damage - You can't get it yet (requires BAB +4), but you'll eventually want Improved Natural Attack to increase your damage die a step.

Other items - Take a look at the Necessary Magic Items thread and go cheap. Remember this list leaves off potions, which will be your most economical solution at low levels. Some things you simply CAN'T afford at your level, but you'll want a way to fly (potions are affordable), some miss chance (Smokesticks are cheap but will also apply miss chance to your attacks), healing (wands of CLW with a Use Magic Device check).

And of course a monk's belt when you get enough money. Best at levels 7, 11, and 15, because your damage die is 2 steps up. All other levels it's only 1 step.

Skills - Tried but true, pump up UMD. This will be useful in the long run, even if it isn't a very "Monk-like" skill. At level 3 that's 6 ranks + 1 charisma (though charisma shouldn't be a priority stat) + 3 skill focus = +10 total, reasonably. You only need a 20 total check to activate a wand, and 20+spell level to use a scroll.
You want at least +5 in tumble.

Feats - I would recommend Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes (with high dex) and Improved Trip.

As everyone else has said, Psionic Fist is a half-decent PrC to aim for. You'll need the Wild Talent feat, nine ranks in Concentration (a class skill!), and Still Mind (monk 3). You can get it at level 7. Decent powers are Expansion, Biofeedback, Hustle, Psionic Lion's Charge, Dimension Slide, Empathic Feedback, Hostile Empathic Transfer, Psionic Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Immovability, Inertial Barrier, Psychobiofeedback, Oak Body.

If Psionics aren't desirable, have a look at Shadowdancer or Horizon Walker. They're solid, though of course not as good as any caster/manifester.

MAD is still a problem. You kind of need them all, though some more than others. I'd prioritize Strength, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution in that order. Switch out Wis and Dex if you want lots of AoOs from Combat Reflexes. Human or Half-orc would be the best races. Don't go small.

[PinkysBrain]

Psionic Fist is the obvious choice.

So Monk 4/psionic base class 2/Psionic Fist X

(If you're using fractional BAB monk 3/PW 3 is an option)

[Eldariel]

Psionic Fist is the obvious choice.

So Monk 4/psionic base class 2/Psionic Fist X

(If you're using fractional BAB monk 3/PW 3 is an option)

Monk 3/Psy War 3 has the same BAB by fractionals and normals?

[NecroRick]

Prepare yourself for the awesome.

Level 1 - Stunning fist
Level 2 - Fiery Fist (from PHB2), now you can spend stunning fists for for moar thwackity damage
Levels 3..6 (as a Cleric with travel(?) domain). At level 6 take Sun School Monk as a feat. Now you can thwackity after teleporting
Levels 7..9 continue to progress in spellcasting. At level 9 take the reserve feat that lets you teleport all day long (Dimensional Jaunt). Not entirely coincidentally - taking the travel domain gave you Dimension Door.

As a cleric take spells that pump your thwackitaciousness.

At level 3 you can abuse feats that you give up turning attempts for.

NB: at level 7 if you took combat casting and combat reflexes at level 1 then you get access to the Sacred Fist prestige class. The first three levels of it give full BAB and full spellcasting. Sacred Fist levels stack with Monk for the purpose of determining how big the dice is that you roll for unarmed damage.

Other domains of interest. Strength grants Enlarge, which pumps your thwackity. And War grants Divine Power, which is the one stop shop for thwackity pumpage.

[TroubleBrewing]

*Summary: Clerics > Monks*

See, this is what I love about the Cleric.

I've used it to out-paladin Paladins, out-fighter Fighters, and out-rogue Rogues before, but I've never bothered with Monks.

I didn't see the point, to tell the truth. I'm glad someone took the time, though.

Probably wasn't much time; out-monking the Monk is not challenging, least of all with a Tier 1 class as rad as the Cleric.

[Runestar]

The particular issue I'm worried about is what this ancient EnWorld thread is about; basically, he plays a Monk and realizes that one spell slot from a Druid contributes more than his entire character (the rest of the thread is full of bad, patchwork "advice" on how to fix this; it's probably not worth your time to read it - this is from the time before people actually understood the system so other people going ballistic on the idea of "classes are imbalanced" is logical enough).

Funny, I read the OP's post and thought of the exact same thread from enworld. Ninja'ed by more than 4 hours!

[NecroRick]

See, this is what I love about the Cleric.

I've used it to out-paladin Paladins, out-fighter Fighters, and out-rogue Rogues before, but I've never bothered with Monks.

I didn't see the point, to tell the truth. I'm glad someone took the time, though.

Probably wasn't much time; out-monking the Monk is not challenging, least of all with a Tier 1 class as rad as the Cleric.

Dude. You completely missed the point. That whole porting around thing? REQUIRES Monk. I'm quite capable of making some douchebag "just use cleric instead lolz" post myself, you don't need to put words into my mouth.