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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glarx View Post
    Could it be that ravages, only affecting those with the Evil alignment or subtype, are considered Good by merit of bringing suffering only to the wicked, while poisons affect indiscriminately?
    So it's cool to harm anybody as long as he pings as evil on the Pally's radar? Are you arguing that torturing people is okay as long as they deserve it?

    And then, here's something else: if it's the general consensus that poisons aren't Evil, then are drugs Evil, as described in the Book of Vile Darkness?
    What does it mean that 'drugs are evil'? Trafficking drugs? Using drugs? The former could be constructed as evil, depending on a lot of variables, the latter probably isn't.

    Finally, it seems strange to say that a sword and poison are synonymous in terms of morality because -- and yes, I'm going to ignore the mechanical effect of 'but it only deals ability damage and cannot technically kill you' -- you cannot slip a sword into your enemy's Cure Serious Wounds potion.
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glarx View Post
    And then, here's something else: if it's the general consensus that poisons aren't Evil, then are drugs Evil, as described in the Book of Vile Darkness?
    Not in my opinion, no. Activities around the drug trade? Quite possibly. But... well, lets just say I'm heading rapidly into Forbidden Topics there

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    A sapient being, exercising his free will to knowingly engage in drug use, isn't evil. BoVD has a very annoying tendency to equate "evil" and "squick" when they aren't the same thing... like, at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    For those who broach the subject of Assassins, might I direct you to check the Test Based Prerequisite? It's not very clear, but the fluff of the Assassin class very clearly indicates that you aren't trying to be an Assassin, you're trying to be a member of the Assassin's Guild of Evil Murderers. I've actually used the assassin class for certain ranger types, who were focused on killing their enemies.

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Like most people here, I say no - with the possible exception of poisons that explicitly cause intense pain or permanent physical deformities. But that shares a very blurry line with the "it's how you use it that determines its alignment" angle.
    I can see the "it's dishonourable" angle, but I also see it as the weapon of the weak, of women (noncombatant, that is) and children.
    Which brings us to the question, are there any that do that in D&D to your knowledge in the first place that you feel that caveat is necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Think about it. You're an assassin - a living weapon. Your employers send you a picture, and you don't ask questions, you get out there and do it. That's what they want from you, none of this nonsensical "free will" and "thinking it over."
    Which is quite a different picture from the scenario you first set us upon anyway.

    What with it being "They tell you" rather than "You get to choose but can't actually choose"

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    It's not very clear, but the fluff of the Assassin class very clearly indicates that you aren't trying to be an Assassin, you're trying to be a member of the Assassin's Guild of Evil Murderers.
    Which is probably is related to the whole annoyance at WOTC thing, yeah.

    Though telling them to kill & replace the court wizard is a pretty lulzy way to get PCs perma-dead, I'll admit...
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-06-14 at 09:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Which is quite a different picture from the scenario you first set us upon anyway.

    What with it being "They tell you" rather than "You get to choose but can't actually choose"
    Those are two different scenarios by design. The former is after you succeed at joining the assassins, the latter is while you're trying to qualify.

    The logic of course being: "if he doesn't care who he has to kill now, he won't ever question his assignments." And not caring who you kill is of course evil as kpenguin said.

    Do you have a response to the conundrum I posted after that?
    Last edited by Psyren; 2011-06-14 at 09:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Those are two different scenarios by design. The former is after you succeed at joining the assassins, the latter is while you're trying to qualify.

    Do you have a response to the conundrum I posted after that?
    Other than that you're not beholden to the assassins at all after you take your first level of the PrC, so the fluff is out of whack if the only guaranteed assassination opportunity is cheapened and played as just straight up stabbing some random guy in the face.

    As for the conundrum you posted, I've gotta run out the door, but skimming it, the "for no other litmus" is failed in the second case because you killed them because it was easier to justify as an entry killing to get into the assassins. Which is similar to failing because "I chose him because he's prominent and it'd be more impressive/flashy to actually succeed in killing a batman wizard than some random barmaid."
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-06-14 at 10:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Which brings us to the question, are there any that do that in D&D to your knowledge in the first place that you feel that caveat is necessary?
    I'm pretty sure I've seen poisons described that do them. Although the disfigurement bit I might be getting mixed up with diseases. I think the drow's favoured poison might be of the horrible pain variety, though?

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Ironically, no. The drow favor a painless sleep poison.


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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    As for the conundrum you posted, I've gotta run out the door, but skimming it, the "for no other litmus" is failed in the second case because you killed them because it was easier to justify as an entry killing to get into the assassins.
    Right - which means you did it to get into the assassins. It thus passes the litmus and is valid. (But, makes you evil.)

    My point is that the alignment requirement on the Assassin makes perfect sense with that fluff requirement in there.

    As for "I killed Batman because it would impress the assassins" - that passes too. (And again, makes you evil.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Which does nothing to explain why that requirement is actually there or mitigate the raw stupidity of it, even if that's what it actually was.
    Assassin-class was originally used for a very specific organization of assassins hence the prerequisite. It's just presented in a general manner in DMG and thus the prerequisites seem kinda weird.

    And no, obviously using poison is not evil. Poison is a tool, what matters is how it's used. Using a poison/sword/fireball to kill a Red Dragon? Fair. Using them to kill an innocent human child. Quite evil. Absolutely no difference between poison and other implements of death. Even the "fairness"-argument is kinda...casting Invisibility is no less underhanded than poisoning food. So, yeah.
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Personal Opinion That Overrules Canon In My Games:

    Poison is not evil. It's not chaotic, it's not dishonourable, and each paladin writes his own code (or adopts the code of a mentor), so it's not even unpaladinlike (not even unladylike, either). Why? Because basic college education has taught me that everything is poison. The only degree of difference is dosage. What we know as a "poison" is merely a substance that is toxic or harmful in very small doses. If we start looking at things a bit closer, even water can be poisonous.
    Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2011-06-14 at 10:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    You can OD on it...

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Personal Opinion That Overrules Canon In My Games:

    Poison is not evil. It's not chaotic, it's not dishonourable, and each paladin writes his own code (or adopts the code of a mentor), so it's not even unpaladinlike (not even unladylike, either). Why? Because basic college education has taught me that everything is poison. The only degree of difference is dosage. What we know as a "poison" is merely a substance that is toxic or harmful in very small doses. If we start looking at things a bit closer, even water can be poisonous.
    I think that's kind of beside the point though. We're talking about the conscious choice to use a harmful (or lethal) amount of that substance on someone. There's a world of difference between handing someone an apple and cracking open the seeds of hundreds of apples and purifying the cyanide out, and then giving that to a person.

    I agree that poison shouldn't be evil (or rather, any more evil than any other form of killing), but I don't think this has anything to do with it.

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by PollyOliver View Post
    I think that's kind of beside the point though. We're talking about the conscious choice to use a harmful (or lethal) amount of that substance on someone. There's a world of difference between handing someone an apple and cracking open the seeds of hundreds of apples and purifying the cyanide out, and then giving that to a person.

    I agree that poison shouldn't be evil (or rather, any more evil than any other form of killing), but I don't think this has anything to do with it.
    My problem is that "poison use" is hilariously stupid as a concept because, as I mentioned, everything is a poison. And this is without going into things like allergies, which something that further muddies the waters (Is it poison (and therefore evil) if I am captured by orcs and, instead of stabbing them all in the eye with a toothpic (à la typical action hero), I put almonds in their meals, fully aware that most orcs are deathly allergic to almonds?).

    And what about the theoretical paladin who casts a compulsion spell that make targets hyperventilate to death (sustained hyperventilation causes metabolic alkalosis, which can be fatal, and physiologically indistinguishable from having ingested or inhaled a "poisonous" substance that produced the same effect)? That's, in a fashion, poisoning people to death with air. And why does he do that? Because this is basically painless. Instead of hacking into their soft flesh like the main character in a slasher flick, he kills them in a more humane way.

    Or he challenges the BBEG to a drinking contest and kills him via alcohol poisoning. Why is that Evil? That should be Awesome Good instead.

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    part of the problem with the assasin class is it is a prestige class prestige class were supposed to be tied to the champaign world and heavily subject to dm fiat but insteade pepole me included just treat them like classes with prequisites picked and choosen for mechanical abbilities almost never built into the setting in any meanigful way. So like has been said you werent just a killer you were part of the order of assasins and shure once they have taught you their super special killing techniques you could leave but then youve just left the order of master killers and now must fight against them or whatever.

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Personal Opinion That Overrules Canon In My Games:

    Poison is not evil. It's not chaotic, it's not dishonourable, and each paladin writes his own code (or adopts the code of a mentor), so it's not even unpaladinlike (not even unladylike, either).
    Oh dear.

    Poisoning a weapon is cheating. It's taking away the skill of the person using said weapon and replacing it with chemistry. It's not noble, it's not skillful and it's not any kind of fight when you can incapacitate or kill the other guy with the lightest of scratches.

    The question isn't "Should I use it?" The question is, "Would I object it if it were used on me?" And if I need to go into this any further, I have a feeling it wouldn't make any difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    My problem is that "poison use" is hilariously stupid as a concept because, as I mentioned, everything is a poison. And this is without going into things like allergies, which something that further muddies the waters (Is it poison (and therefore evil) if I am captured by orcs and, instead of stabbing them all in the eye with a toothpic (à la typical action hero), I put almonds in their meals, fully aware that most orcs are deathly allergic to almonds?).

    And what about the theoretical paladin who casts a compulsion spell that make targets hyperventilate to death (sustained hyperventilation causes metabolic alkalosis, which can be fatal, and physiologically indistinguishable from having ingested or inhaled a "poisonous" substance that produced the same effect)? That's, in a fashion, poisoning people to death with air. And why does he do that? Because this is basically painless. Instead of hacking into their soft flesh like the main character in a slasher flick, he kills them in a more humane way.

    Or he challenges the BBEG to a drinking contest and kills him via alcohol poisoning. Why is that Evil? That should be Awesome Good instead.
    Too technical. Too ludicrous. Get your classroom out of my RPG.

    Poison makes things easier for you and harder for the enemy. But does it in a way that isn't clever, it's sneaky. It's not a tactical advantage or an ace in the hole, it's something that would have players screaming out about how unfair the GM was being if it were done to them.

    In a place where morality can take concrete form and literally rip your lungs out, there is no argument that poison is evil.

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    @ Big Dice - Poison being "cheating" does not equate to it being evil. Dishonorable maybe (and thus chaotic, if anything) but not evil.

    Sure poison replaces my weapon skill with chemistry, but you could easily make that argument about almost any magic spell (e.g. Shivering Touch) which replaces my combat skill with physics.

    I would object to a fireball being used on me too. Why aren't fireballs inherently evil?


    Finally, every last one of your arguments applies to Ravages too. Yet they are good because... they only work on evil people? So, what about if I only poison evil people?
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Dice View Post
    Oh dear.

    Poisoning a weapon is cheating. It's taking away the skill of the person using said weapon and replacing it with chemistry. It's not noble, it's not skillful and it's not any kind of fight when you can incapacitate or kill the other guy with the lightest of scratches.

    The question isn't "Should I use it?" The question is, "Would I object it if it were used on me?" And if I need to go into this any further, I have a feeling it wouldn't make any difference.

    Too technical. Too ludicrous. Get your classroom out of my RPG.

    Poison makes things easier for you and harder for the enemy. But does it in a way that isn't clever, it's sneaky. It's not a tactical advantage or an ace in the hole, it's something that would have players screaming out about how unfair the GM was being if it were done to them.

    In a place where morality can take concrete form and literally rip your lungs out, there is no argument that poison is evil.
    Oh that was funny. Thanks for that chuckle.

    I actually had a thought-out argument to counter every single point you're making here, but then I realised that it wouldn't make a difference, since you're applying your morality to the game and no amount of logic or sound reasoning is going to change that; you're too emotionally invested into this argument. It would be like trying to tell someone who is convinced that paladins must be Lawful Good that it's okay to have a Chaotic Good paladin. No amount of reasoning is going to change their deep-seated convictions. So why try?

    If you think poison use is evil, that's okay. You can run your game however you like!

    For the record: I wouldn't object to a DM using poison on my character. Why would I? It'd be just as silly as objecting to having been targeted by a Ray of Enfeeblement, Touch of Stupidity, Shivering Touch or a stat-draining attack from an undead creature (all together now: Shadows for Strength, Allips for Wisdom, Banshees for Charisma, Wraiths for Constitution, Forgewraiths for Dexterity, Dream Vestiges for Intelligence and Spectres for tasty, tasty levels!).
    Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2011-06-14 at 02:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    My opinoin is this.
    Poison isn't honourable, its just another way of putting the other guy in the ground. An Orthodox Paladin waill not approve of poisons, because the way I view their code is they respect evil and will fight it fairly.
    Which is rather odd, since that is what the code indicates and insunuates that evil isn't something which must be killed, more an enemy that must be defeated and do so with Honour.

    The poison itself is evil depending on why you kill someone and who it is.
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    I actually had a thought-out argument to counter every single point you're making here, but then I realised that it wouldn't make a difference, since you're applying your morality to the game and no amount of logic or sound reasoning is going to change that; you're too emotionally invested into this argument. It would be like trying to tell someone who is convinced that paladins must be Lawful Good that it's okay to have a Chaotic Good paladin. No amount of reasoning is going to change their deep-seated convictions. So why try?
    Ok, let me put it this way. The game says poison is evil. The game also says that there are real, physical places made of good, evil, law, chaos and neutrality. And combinations of those ingredients. Therefore, in D&D morality isn't just a concept. It's entire worlds.

    The game also says there are also creatures made of good and evil, law and chaos. So evil isn't just a concept, it's a living, breathing being.

    In other words, evil is a real, tangible thing in D&Dland.

    The game also says that Paladins must be Lawful Good.

    Any other position is by definition homebrew.

    Now, I don't see anyone arguing against the various good and evil planes, or against demons, devils, archons and so on. And yet people always argue against the evil nature of poisons. Why is this? And yes, ravages are stupid. But then so are most of the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness. They should have been called the Books of Scooby Doo. Because that's the level of sophistication both deal in.

    Here's the thing. D&D is a game of absolutes. It's also a game where a great many things are abstracted. Bringing philosophy or science into things makes a mockery of the entire structure of the game. After all, the rules tell me what I can do. They don't mention terminal velocity, so therefore if I fall, it doesn't matter what height I fall from. It could be ten feet or ten miles. I hit the ground immediately and take 1d6 per ten feet fallen of damage. There's no provision for terminal velocity and water counts as a soft surface for landing on.

    D&D morality is exactly the same. Good and evil are real, concrete, measurable and quantifiable absolutes. They are places and creatures and they can be defined in precise degrees by the use of Detect Good/Evil. And claiming otherwise is simply sophistry and an attempt to justify your own opinion in game terms. The same with trying to say that you can't swim across lava because the temperatures involved would literally evaporate human flesh on contact. Even though the rules say you can swim in lava.

    If the game says something is evil and you decide it isn't, you need to follow the chain of dominoes that choice causes to fall. Because the idea of evil as a living things is deeply embedded in D&D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Dice View Post
    Ok, let me put it this way. The game says poison is evil. The game also says that there are real, physical places made of good, evil, law, chaos and neutrality. And combinations of those ingredients. Therefore, in D&D morality isn't just a concept. It's entire worlds.

    The game also says there are also creatures made of good and evil, law and chaos. So evil isn't just a concept, it's a living, breathing being.

    In other words, evil is a real, tangible thing in D&Dland.

    The game also says that Paladins must be Lawful Good.

    Any other position is by definition homebrew.
    Quite correct you are. Which is why I prefaced my post with "personal opinion that overrules canon in my games." I understand what the game's canon says and I choose to utterly disregard it. If you completely missed that, despite it being plain there in the post you quoted, well... that's hardly my fault.

    Now, I don't see anyone arguing against the various good and evil planes, or against demons, devils, archons and so on. And yet people always argue against the evil nature of poisons. Why is this? And yes, ravages are stupid. But then so are most of the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness. They should have been called the Books of Scooby Doo. Because that's the level of sophistication both deal in.
    Funny how you say that poison is evil and then disregard the books that say so. As far as I'm aware, it doesn't say anywhere in core that poison use is evil, only that paladins are not allowed to do so.

    Here's the thing. D&D is a game of absolutes. It's also a game where a great many things are abstracted. Bringing philosophy or science into things makes a mockery of the entire structure of the game. After all, the rules tell me what I can do. They don't mention terminal velocity, so therefore if I fall, it doesn't matter what height I fall from. It could be ten feet or ten miles. I hit the ground immediately and take 1d6 per ten feet fallen of damage. There's no provision for terminal velocity and water counts as a soft surface for landing on.
    Actually there are rules for terminal velocity. Relevant link. There's a 20d6 maximum damage no matter how high you fall. They don't call it terminal velocity, but that's pretty much what it is.

    Other than that, I completely disagree. D&D is what I make of it. If I want to bring philosophy, physics or whatever into my game, I can. I just don't expect everyone to agree with me or see it from my point of view.

    D&D morality is exactly the same. Good and evil are real, concrete, measurable and quantifiable absolutes. They are places and creatures and they can be defined in precise degrees by the use of Detect Good/Evil. And claiming otherwise is simply sophistry and an attempt to justify your own opinion in game terms. The same with trying to say that you can't swim across lava because the temperatures involved would literally evaporate human flesh on contact. Even though the rules say you can swim in lava.

    If the game says something is evil and you decide it isn't, you need to follow the chain of dominoes that choice causes to fall. Because the idea of evil as a living things is deeply embedded in D&D.
    Yes, I know. And I dislike that, so I changed it. I've also changed how Detect Good/Evil/etc works. And if I find anything I don't like, I change it. Simple as that. I never say that my changes are flawless, but I put some amount of thought into them, and so far, they've worked. They've improved my games.

    If poison being evil improves your game, go for it! Just accept that others may change that part of the game without any negative consequences (so far).

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    I agree it's RAW, yet so is drowning to heal. At some point you have to let common sense take a seat at the table too.
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    For those who broach the subject of Assassins, might I direct you to check the Test Based Prerequisite? It's not very clear, but the fluff of the Assassin class very clearly indicates that you aren't trying to be an Assassin, you're trying to be a member of the Assassin's Guild of Evil Murderers. I've actually used the assassin class for certain ranger types, who were focused on killing their enemies.
    Yes. I've house-ruled that prerequisite to be "any dangerous covert mission", so as to open the Assassin class to non-Evil. I don't see any mechanical reason why Assassins should be Evil other than that prerequisite, so why limit it? It's a perfectly good PrC and most games are Good/Neutral ones anyway.

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Callista View Post
    Yes. I've house-ruled that prerequisite to be "any dangerous covert mission", so as to open the Assassin class to non-Evil. I don't see any mechanical reason why Assassins should be Evil other than that prerequisite, so why limit it? It's a perfectly good PrC and most games are Good/Neutral ones anyway.
    Correction: most PCs are Good/Neutral. Several PrCs are intended for NPCs: Witch Hunter for instance, or Red Wizard, or Necrocarnate, or Blighter. Assassin (and Blackguard) can easily fall into this camp.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    By RAW cocording to the PHB poison is not good, evil, lawful, or chaotic. It is dishonorable. Paladins (and knights) are NOT allowed to make up their own code by RAW, must be honorable and therefore cannot use poison.

    BoED and BoVD RAW says poison is evil. BoED and BoVD are right up there with the Monster Manual II as the worst written D&D books of all time, and I would suggest not playing with them.

    A side question, is it house ruling, or violating RAW, or using rule zero, to decide which splat books are used in your game, or do you have to go with a "everything official is allowed" or "core only" position to be on the up and up?
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2011-06-14 at 07:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Correction: most PCs are Good/Neutral. Several PrCs are intended for NPCs: Witch Hunter for instance, or Red Wizard, or Necrocarnate, or Blighter. Assassin (and Blackguard) can easily fall into this camp.
    Don't forget Beholder Mage.

    On poison:
    Poison is a weapon, more potent than most, but still a weapon. Saying poison is evil is like saying swords, axes, fire, magic, etc. is evil. It's more that poison is dishonorable (which, by definition, is chaotic).
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Not to disrupt a fascinating alignment debate, but this was quoted upthread:

    * DC 34: Svakalor Venom, Greater (Paralysis/1d6 Con) (Dungeonscape)
    * DC 24: Svakalor Venom (Paralysis/4d6 Con) (Dungeonscape)
    Is that a typo, or is 'greater' Svakalor Venom only 25% as potent as ordinary venom?
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2011-06-14 at 07:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Not to disrupt a fascinating alignment debate, but this was quoted upthread:



    Is that a typo, or is 'greater' Svakalor Venom only 25% as potent as ordinary venom?
    Heh, that's what I was wondering.
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    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Looks like less potent, but incredibly more difficult to throw off. So the Greater Svakalor doesn't need the Con damage to its enemies?

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