New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 201
  1. - Top - End - #91
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    It is a typo. Standard is 1d4 con, Greater is 1d6 con. The DCs are correct.

    (Dungeonscape 129)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Denver.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    It's more that poison is dishonorable (which, by definition, is chaotic).

    So it is. That is bizarre. Now I need to rethink my whole concept of law / chaos.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2011-06-14 at 07:44 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGirl

    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I apologize if my meaning was not clear. I was not talking about the Evil alignment. I was talking about that kind of strict(in my mind, insanely so) reading of the requirement "kill someone to join the assassins."

    Which are quite different from a street gang in terms of how they're sold in fantasy fluff, generally speaking.

    If the assassin requirement were an upmarket version of the street gang example you gave, then the prospective assassin would need to actually select a mark & plan out a hit. But if he uses any criteria for selecting a target to and actually plans an assassination of said person, then he violates the PrC requirements by the reading that Psyren gave.

    Since it's impossible for an actor, rational or otherwise, to be truly random and it's impossible to use no criteria and remain an actor, the closest example I could think of to illustrate what kind of limitations this imposed when taken to the logical conclusion was that of a mindless, brainless killbot. Possibly with a pre-set kill limit. So that one could send wave after wave of one's men to be killed by them until they reached that limit and shut down...

    edit:


    If you read this strictly, then you're not allowed to use any selection criteria to choose your target. Or even kill a given target because the assassins told you to kill them in order to join them.
    I don't understand. It says "
    The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins." So that must be your only motive (i.e. not part of some quest, not done for profit and loot, although it doesn't say you can't loot them anyway - i.e. as long as the DM or in-world senior Assassins believe in your motives it's fine). It doesn't say anything else about how you choose the person, or that they have to be 'random' in any statistical sense, or it can't involve planning, stealth, use of archetypical skills, etc. Or doesn't say that senior Assassins must pick the target for you, but it doesn't say they can't give you "suggestions" (and while killing someone else may meet the stated prereqs, there may be in-character incentives to go along with a 'suggestion' made by assassins).
    Last edited by ffone; 2011-06-14 at 08:08 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Xin-Shalast
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Assassin-class was originally used for a very specific organization of assassins hence the prerequisite. It's just presented in a general manner in DMG and thus the prerequisites seem kinda weird.
    Which just increases the aggregate raw stupidity of it, that they made something generic without actually making it generic.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Dice View Post
    The question isn't "Should I use it?" The question is, "Would I object it if it were used on me?"
    Then everything fails that last question that isn't enough beer and wenching to last until the next adventure.

    Quote Originally Posted by ffone View Post
    I don't understand.
    Psyren nixed killing someone powerful, evil, and notable because they're powerful, evil, and notable, and that's what I was reacting to when I was criticizing what I perceived to be an overly strict reading of the requirement.

    I then proceeded to discuss how being that strict with one's reading would lead to the things I said. The reason one chose who one killed for the prerequisite is enough to prevent one from qualifying for the PrC by that kind of reading because it's an additional reason on top of doing it to join the assassins.

    Is that more clear?
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-06-14 at 10:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
    To Do: Reboot and finish Riptide

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Question: Why isn't the spell Poison evil then? Also, if anyone has noticed, Druids have an incredible amount of CON damaging spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post

    DM says: WHY!? WHY!? WHY?!
    DM means: NO! NO! NO!!!
    Player hears: GOOD JOB PLAYER! DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Denver.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by jguy View Post
    Question: Why isn't the spell Poison evil then? Also, if anyone has noticed, Druids have an incredible amount of CON damaging spells.
    Because its a core spell, and the idea of poison being evil wasn't added until later, just like Coatl, a core monster, can using poison and be good.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I then proceeded to discuss how being that strict with one's reading would lead to the things I said. The reason one chose who one killed for the prerequisite is enough to prevent one from qualifying for the PrC by that kind of reading because it's an additional reason on top of doing it to join the assassins.
    It's actually easy to pass the "no other reason" litmus - just kill someone you don't know. Simple.

    If I don't know you're a tyrannical despot who deserves to die, then that reason will never factor into my choice to kill you.

    Another way to do it - kill someone you know doesn't deserve death, like a Mother Teresa figure. There would be absolutely no reason to murder someone like that - except to join the assassins.

    Both of these work. And again, they are both Evil. (And thus, you would be too.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Xin-Shalast
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's actually easy to pass the "no other reason" litmus - just kill someone you don't know. Simple.
    Which is stupid as a requirement to join a group of assassins for a variety of reasons, my least favorite being that somehow killing a faceless no-name is really worth teaching some two-bit rogue how to use magic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
    To Do: Reboot and finish Riptide

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Random NPC's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's actually easy to pass the "no other reason" litmus - just kill someone you don't know. Simple.
    Ah, but now you're killing them because you want to join the assassins, and because they are someone you don't know.

    Like he said, that overly strict reading of the requirements causes you to be unable to kill anyone just to join the assassins.
    See when a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, you can bet we've bought the vinyl.
    -Snow White

    Avatar by Chd

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Terra Australis
    Gender
    Male

    Thumbs down Re: Is poison use evil?

    I find it hilarious that under BoED’s oddball morals, poisoning enemies is eeeevil, yet it’s OK to bash, cut, puncture, burn (with fire or acid), electrocute, freeze, blind, deafen, terrify to death (Phantasmal Killer), turn to stone, paralyse, implode, render insane, telekinetically batter against a wall, use caltrops/spike stones against, and otherwise harm opponents. It’s an idiotic return to the 1E notion that poison is the tool of the cowardly and dishonourable.

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Fox Box Socks's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    RAW, yes.

    Thematically, it's less Evil and more Chaotic. It's only a dirty and underhanded tactic if you think that combat has rules that need to be followed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Heroes of Horror is only 1.8 pounds. By comparison, the DMG is a hefty 2.6 pounds, making it by far the more powerful book.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Dice View Post
    That's more or less what I thought. And then a player took the Oblivion route of killing some insignificant individual rather than try to find the Assassins by more conventional means. And so was born an organisation inspired by the Dark Brotherhood.
    Heh, Oblivion. It was kind of buggy when it came to the "kill someone innocent to join the Dark Brotherhood" check. I managed to trigger the required kill when fighting someone in the arena. I don't know why it considered them to be an innocent.

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    Ah, but now you're killing them because you want to join the assassins, and because they are someone you don't know.
    Totally incorrect. Them being someone you don't know is a means to the end of joining the assassins. As opposed to killing someone you know is evil, which has nothing to do with the assassins at all, instead serving the alternate motive of assuaging your own guilty conscience.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by holywhippet View Post
    Heh, Oblivion. It was kind of buggy when it came to the "kill someone innocent to join the Dark Brotherhood" check. I managed to trigger the required kill when fighting someone in the arena. I don't know why it considered them to be an innocent.
    Friendly word of advice: Don't trigger it in the Shivering Isles. Bad things happen when you do.

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Totally incorrect. Them being someone you don't know is a means to the end of joining the assassins. As opposed to killing someone you know is evil, which has nothing to do with the assassins at all, instead serving the alternate motive of assuaging your own guilty conscience.
    You made it sound like you were killing them because you didn't know them and thus felt it would make joining the Assassins easier.

    And this makes me curious. If a Golem is ordered to join the Assassins and to follow any orders from others to in order to follow the first order, does that pass the technical "only to join the Assassins" that is being argued here? Or is it invalidated because it is only doing it in order to follow its initial order to join the Assassins and thus isn't killing to only join the Assassins? Assuming that the orders aren't too complicated and the Golem can take the class.

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Xin-Shalast
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Totally incorrect. Them being someone you don't know is a means to the end of joining the assassins. As opposed to killing someone you know is evil, which has nothing to do with the assassins at all, instead serving the alternate motive of assuaging your own guilty conscience.
    Nah, at that point we're going out of RAW and more into rules as make some variable amount of sense.

    Granted, the whole doing something to assuage a guilty conscience as opposed to the fact that famous evil people are going to be more famous as difficult to kill or unkillable is pretty silly.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-06-15 at 12:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
    To Do: Reboot and finish Riptide

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Totally incorrect. Them being someone you don't know is a means to the end of joining the assassins. As opposed to killing someone you know is evil, which has nothing to do with the assassins at all, instead serving the alternate motive of assuaging your own guilty conscience.
    You know if getting into reasons behind reasons then it is actually impossible to join the assassins unless you have absolutely no reason to want to join the assassins.

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    You know if getting into reasons behind reasons then it is actually impossible to join the assassins unless you have absolutely no reason to want to join the assassins.
    And this is why we don't talk about Fightclub.

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    You know if getting into reasons behind reasons then it is actually impossible to join the assassins unless you have absolutely no reason to want to join the assassins.
    Which is why I wasn't getting into reasons behind reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Which is why I wasn't getting into reasons behind reasons.
    But that's what you seemed to imply by saying that they were doing the hit because they didn't know the person as opposed to knowing them.

  21. - Top - End - #111
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    But that's what you seemed to imply by saying that they were doing the hit because they didn't know the person as opposed to knowing them.
    You're overthinking it.

    Assassins say "go kill someone."
    I throw a knife out the window.

    What other reason could there have been for that besides, "to join the assassins?" Please, tell me.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You're overthinking it.

    Assassins say "go kill someone."
    I throw a knife out the window.

    What other reason could there have been for that besides, "to join the assassins?" Please, tell me.
    I'm merely commenting on the point Coidzor is already making, which is that you made a bad choice of wording when making your point.

  23. - Top - End - #113
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Which just increases the aggregate raw stupidity of it, that they made something generic without actually making it generic.
    True to a degree, but it makes perfect sense when you consider the purpose of the PRCs in the book; they are, more or less, intended as examples for the DM. It was expected that DMs would mostly write their own PRCs and the DMG options mostly act as examples on how to. It goes from the generic ones (e.g. Loremaster or Arcane Archer) into the specifics (Assassin, Red Wizard of Thay) to showcase the different types of PRCs one could use.

    I don't think those particular PRCs were ever really designed for use in Core campaigns, and I know the writers didn't expect for the splatbook writers to ride the PRC idea that hard. So, the odd prerequisites seem sensible, at least to me, when considering the environment DMG was written in. Of course, little turned out the way they expected.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Taelas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Denmark
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    If you use the BoED instead of chucking it into a bin like the rest of us did, poison use is Evil. This is silly and contradictory to everything else in the game.

    If you go by logic instead, poison use is dishonorable, but can be Good, Neutral or Evil depending on your intentions and whom you use it on.

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    I'm merely commenting on the point Coidzor is already making, which is that you made a bad choice of wording when making your point.
    Duly noted.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    True to a degree, but it makes perfect sense when you consider the purpose of the PRCs in the book; they are, more or less, intended as examples for the DM. It was expected that DMs would mostly write their own PRCs and the DMG options mostly act as examples on how to. It goes from the generic ones (e.g. Loremaster or Arcane Archer) into the specifics (Assassin, Red Wizard of Thay) to showcase the different types of PRCs one could use.

    I don't think those particular PRCs were ever really designed for use in Core campaigns, and I know the writers didn't expect for the splatbook writers to ride the PRC idea that hard. So, the odd prerequisites seem sensible, at least to me, when considering the environment DMG was written in. Of course, little turned out the way they expected.
    I would buy that argument . . . if we were talking about 3.0. By the time the 3.5 DMG was written, though, there had been no shortage of splatbooks with piles of PrCs in them. The whole PrC paradigm, or something close to it, was fully in place when the 3.5 DMG crawled out of R&D.

    You could argue that they probably just copied what they had in the 3.0 DMG, but I think my point still stands. They may have been lazy, but they were in no way unaware of the fact that there would be many, many PrCs after the first batch.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ravens_cry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Which is stupid as a requirement to join a group of assassins for a variety of reasons, my least favorite being that somehow killing a faceless no-name is really worth teaching some two-bit rogue how to use magic.
    Honestly, I do not see it as stupid. If you treat taking levels in Assassin as joining an in-world group, a conceit common to many prestige classes, then ffones explanation makes perfect sense. You don't like the idea of having a character killing someone merely to join a group but have the assassin abilities, then become an Avenger.
    No, not that kind. Nor that kind. This kind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Random NPC's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    Honestly, I do not see it as stupid. If you treat taking levels in Assassin as joining an in-world group, a conceit common to many prestige classes, then ffones explanation makes perfect sense. You don't like the idea of having a character killing someone merely to join a group but have the assassin abilities, then become an Avenger.
    No, not that kind. Nor that kind. This kind.
    I belive Coidzor's point is that on the one hand you have some guy that already knows how to kill people and wants to join your group, and on the other, you have a guy that shanked a starving street rat in some back alley who also wants to join. One of those is more worthy of joining, but mechanically they both get accepted. If they were trying to make the class an orginization, the orginization should be giving you your first assignment. If not, you shouldn't have to kill someone to join the class.
    Last edited by The Random NPC; 2011-06-15 at 06:16 AM.
    See when a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, you can bet we've bought the vinyl.
    -Snow White

    Avatar by Chd

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ravens_cry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    I belive Coidzor's point is that on the one hand you have some guy that already knows how to kill people and wants to join your group, and on the other, you have a guy that shanked a starving street rat in some back alley who also wants to join. One of those is more worthy of joining, but mechanically they both get accepted. If they were trying to make the class an orginization, the orginization should be giving you your first assignment. If not, you shouldn't have to kill someone to join the class.
    Should? As ffones said, many gangs, and what is assassins guild or similar organization but a 'high class' gang, have initiations that make it hard, if not impossible, for the party to go to the authorities after without getting in trouble themselves. The skill requirements cover the technical requirements portion, albeit in an abreviated and abstracted way. The UA Test Based Requirements does it even better in my opinion for prestige classes based on in-world organizations. You didn't just kill some homeless drunk, you pulled off an intricate dance of subterfuge and murder. I would love to add this to a campaign.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Random NPC's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: Is poison use evil?

    The point is a person could join by stabbing a homeless drunk or by pulling off an intricate dance of subterfuge and murder. One is easier, and the other is more deserving. If it is representing joining an organization, they should be giving you your first mission and forcing the dance.
    See when a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, you can bet we've bought the vinyl.
    -Snow White

    Avatar by Chd

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •