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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Is the HEROS system worth playing?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    The Hero System (Champions, Fantasy Hero, etc.) is great for some people, but not for others. It allows incredible flexibility in designing unique powers and skills.

    But it comes at what some people consider a cost.

    Creating a character involves a mild use of math - adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing. If you aren't willing to do that, either on paper or in Excel, you will probably find character creation frustrating.

    I love the game, and usually do the character creation for one or two friends. Then they have a great time playing.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Pro's:
    Amazing levels of power customization.
    Interesting and different initative system.
    Great customization of normal human stuff.

    Cons:
    Tendency to encourage "pissing contests" at character creation. You can just flat out buy attacks that do 6d6 or 8d6 or 10d6 and do typeless damage or esoteric damage types or you can have two attacks linked to always go off together. Then ther's Armor piercing abilities and hardened defenses and double armor piercing and double hardened.
    This segways well into the fact that it's a very exploitable system and every build needs a thourough looking over and knowledgeof the system allows some real silliness.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    Interesting and different initative system.
    I've heard this one mentioned before. What's it like?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhynn View Post
    I've heard this one mentioned before. What's it like?
    One of your stats is speed. In twelve turns, you get as many actions as your speed. So a speed 5 character moves & attacks on turns 2, 5, 7, 10, and 12. A speed 3 character moves & attacks on turns 4, 8, & 12.

    Within a turn, it's in DEX order.

    DEX and SPEED are both expensive relative to STR, so a super-strong character gets fewer attacks than a speedy but less strong martial artist.

    So there is a trade-off between how powerful your attacks are and how often you can use them.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Knaight's Avatar

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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Creating a character involves a mild use of math - adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing. If you aren't willing to do that, either on paper or in Excel, you will probably find character creation frustrating.
    More specifically, it involves the use of quite a bit of math, all of which is extremely simple. It's more analogous to extremely basic accounting than anything else, really.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
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    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    For character design there are also dome very nice software packages which take the maths out of it . I like them and I am a keen mathmetician

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    May 2012

    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    No, just no.

    Both Wild Talents and Mutants and Masterminds do every single thing the HERO system does, but better and with less rules. It's a matter of choosing between a modern assault rifle, and a rifle from WW2. They both do the same thing, one(or two in this case) is just strictly better.
    When you are first born, the universe assigns you a secret luck value. The quality of your life, dice rolls, and how friendly your DM is are all influenced by the luck value. It is the universe's secret social experiment. So if you been rolling poor, it is only because you were assigned low luck value by the universe. You can raise your luck value only through proper dice rolling rituals.


  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Oct 2007

    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Char-gen is really not bad. It looks intimidating as hell, but with the use of example powers, and/or one experienced player helping, it's pretty straightforward. And the math is simple, there's just a lot of it.

    The main trade-off for me is the combat speed. HERO combat is just not fast, even with experienced players, even with some houserules made to speed it up. It runs toward the slow end of 3.x D&D combat, which to me is definitely slower than ideal.

    And with inexperienced or just disorganized players/GM, the combat can be molasses-like.

    That said, it's an extremely powerful and flexible system, and really fun to build things in.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2014-02-15 at 04:42 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kesnit's Avatar

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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    My gaming group decided to try HERO recently. (The GM and one other player are very familiar with the system. The other 3 players are not.)

    Character creation was both awesome and nightmarish. It was awesome because I told the GM what I wanted my PC to be able to do, and he put together an amazing power set that is better than I dreamed. It was nightmarish because of the math involved in buying stats, skills, etc. (I'm saying this as someone who got a degree in engineering.)

    Once we got playing, though, I'm enjoying it. I have yet to do a combat where everyone is powered up, though, so we'll see how that goes. (Our first session, we did a combat that led to us getting our powers. It took a long time because 3 of us had built with the assumption we would have powers. Without them, we didn't have a lot of combat options. The rest of the party has done a combat with powers, but I had to miss that session. However, we are set up for a fight to start next session.)
    Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    One of your stats is speed. In twelve turns, you get as many actions as your speed. So a speed 5 character moves & attacks on turns 2, 5, 7, 10, and 12.
    *Cough* 3, 5, 8, 10, 12 *Cough*

    One advantage of Hero system is that it is hard to design a character that stands no chance at doing any damage. Also, one thing I like about it is that combat is more mobile.

    Granted, I do Champions with Knockback, but it's fun to watch people get blown about the map :) I know my players got a kick out of every time they sent a villian flying :)

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    In my experience, the Hero system is absolutely fantastic for character creation. I haven't come up with a single concept that the system hasn't been able to implement, in most cases doing it quickly, simply, and elegantly, and to an arbitrary level of detail. There can a fair amount of number-crunching involved, but none of it is very difficult.

    The down side to this is that the system is not at all self-balancing. The GM must have enough system mastery to be able to tell how various abilities and powers will synergize, and be willing to modify or veto anything.

    Running the game may be more work than many players or GMs are willing to deal with. Combat can be slow, as it involves keeping track of several different numbers for each character (instead of just hit points, for example, each character must track Body, Endurance, and Stun) and can involve rolling huge handfuls of dice. If every player has enough familiarity with the system to keep track of his own character, it goes fairly smoothly, in my experience, but a big combat can drag on.

    Final advice: Don't let the min-maxer have a Variable Power Pool. Not because he'll break the game (though he'll try), but because he'll waste hours of game time figuring out the most efficient way to allocate his points.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Crown View Post
    In my experience, the Hero system is absolutely fantastic for character creation. I haven't come up with a single concept that the system hasn't been able to implement, in most cases doing it quickly, simply, and elegantly, and to an arbitrary level of detail. There can a fair amount of number-crunching involved, but none of it is very difficult.
    Very true. It's an infinitely flexible system. The idea is that the power is a basic effect, with any number of modifiers worked out and paid for in advance. I once modeled the ability to leap onto a moving car safely as a short teleport with the modifiers "must pass through the intervening space, "must make an acrobatics skill roll", and "can change relative velocity".

    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Crown View Post
    The down side to this is that the system is not at all self-balancing. The GM must have enough system mastery to be able to tell how various abilities and powers will synergize, and be willing to modify or veto anything.
    This is quite true. It's an infinitely flexible system, but one of the drawbacks to that is that it's an infinitely flexible system. The introduction to my last campaign included the following rules:
    "I know most of the ways to try to build a character worth much more than the rules intend. If you come up with such a strategy, I will congratulate you on your cleverness and ruthlessly disallow it."

    "10. I reserve the right to put limitations on the following powers, to prevent game-warping effects: N-Ray Vision, Clairsentience, Desolidification, Extra-Dimensional Movement, Faster than Light Travel."

    "14. I will add a –1/4 limitation of my own choice to any power of 60 or more active points. I will add a –1/2 limitation to any power of 80 or more active points. I will add limitations adding up to at least –3/4 to any power of 105 or more active points. I will decide on a case-by-case basis how much Limitation I will give any powers much above that level. These limitations will be chosen specifically to keep them fun and valuable, while limiting their ability to screw up my plans, so I will not tell you why I chose them. You may or may not know what this limitation is at the start of play. Limitations I choose are likely to include side effects, gestures, restrainable, Reduced by Range or Reduced Penetration, Gradual Effect, Extra Time, or something else that gives me as GM an opportunity to prevent their use at specific moments for story purposes."

    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Crown View Post
    Running the game may be more work than many players or GMs are willing to deal with. Combat can be slow, as it involves keeping track of several different numbers for each character (instead of just hit points, for example, each character must track Body, Endurance, and Stun) and can involve rolling huge handfuls of dice. If every player has enough familiarity with the system to keep track of his own character, it goes fairly smoothly, in my experience, but a big combat can drag on.
    If somebody doesn't have much system familiarity, design him a straightforward brick or energy blaster, with simple options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Crown View Post
    Final advice: Don't let the min-maxer have a Variable Power Pool. Not because he'll break the game (though he'll try), but because he'll waste hours of game time figuring out the most efficient way to allocate his points.
    There are two solutions for this. I will always allow a gadget Power Pool, with the restriction that every gadget you use must be designed in advance and written down. You have a laser, or a shrink ray, in your pool? Fine - but have its form pre-calculated and just show me what it does.

    More importantly, never let a player's indecision slow down the game. It has "holding action" as an option. His lack of pre-planning limits him, not the rest of us.

    DM: OK, The next three to act are Silver Surfer, Captain Sprocket, and Wonder Warthog. Spike, it's your turn. What is your Silver Surfer character doing?
    Spike: Hold on. I'm trying to decide what my Power Cosmic will do this turn.
    DM: Silver Surfer is holding action. When you figure it out, tell me, and you'll go next. Next three up are Captain Sprocket, Wonder Warthog, and Giant Turtle Boy. Sugar, what action does Captain Sprocket take?

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zavoniki View Post
    No, just no.

    Both Wild Talents and Mutants and Masterminds do every single thing the HERO system does, but better and with less rules. It's a matter of choosing between a modern assault rifle, and a rifle from WW2. They both do the same thing, one(or two in this case) is just strictly better.
    From everything I've heard, this is the truth. I play M&M 3e, and literally every good thing posted here about flexibility in character creation applies to it as well as HERO... but the actual gameplay is simplicity itself, running off a single d20. Not to say that HERO is bad, but there's something else out there that does exactly the same thing, but better.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2014-02-25 at 07:41 PM.
    Hill Giant Games
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  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    From everything I've heard, this is the truth. I play M&M 3e, and literally every good thing posted here about flexibility in character creation applies to it as well as HERO... but the actual gameplay is simplicity itself, running off a single d20. Not to say that HERO is bad, but there's something else out there that does exactly the same thing, but better.
    Well it doesn't have the math, so inherently it has to be complex which means that it must not have as defined a model for certain things.
    My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    Well it doesn't have the math, so inherently it has to be complex which means that it must not have as defined a model for certain things.
    Huh? I can't quite tell what you're trying to say here... that M&M is cinematic, rather than simulationist?
    Hill Giant Games
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    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Huh? I can't quite tell what you're trying to say here... that M&M is cinematic, rather than simulationist?
    That M&M is less complex, and any time you lose complexity you inherently lose some details of the model. Certain things are modeled with a LOT of handwaving in M&M and this is less (though not entirely removed) in HERO. There are advantages to HERO system though they aren't often discussed, because there are advantages to greater or increased complexity. For example the fact that faster characters take more actions (which is actually against M&M design principles), is one area where HERO system can produce something that would be difficult for M&M to replicate.
    My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    With the caveat that I've never played M&M and know very little about it...Using only a D20 seems like a weakness for a superhero game to me...I like how the Hero system damage works, with likely you'll do 'x' damage, but it's possible to do more or less, which may enable characters to actually damage something else.

    Also, the 3d6 to hit system allows defensive skill/agility to play a bigger role. It really enables the Brick and the Martial Artist archetypes to shine in different ways and have the vermisiltude (sp?) that they feel different in the ways that they 'should'.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by skyth View Post
    With the caveat that I've never played M&M and know very little about it...Using only a D20 seems like a weakness for a superhero game to me...I like how the Hero system damage works, with likely you'll do 'x' damage, but it's possible to do more or less, which may enable characters to actually damage something else.
    It works, especially with the way damage works. Character don't have hit points and in fact get progressively worse at resisting damage the more they take damage.

    As I understand HERO is basically has a hitpoint like stat. Its a different mechanic, but I figure either should work. The math in M&M tends to be easier only by virtue of using whole numbers for extras and flaws on effects.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: HEROS- Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    s I understand HERO is basically has a hitpoint like stat.
    It has 2...Stun and Body. Stun represents pain/bruising...Stuff that knocks you out. Body represents actually physical injury...Stuff that kills you.

    Stun is the one that is most often damaged (And for the most)...And it recovers slowly during a fight (And you can take actions to recover even more). I like the differentiation. It allows you to be concious and fighting, yet bleeding out...And it allows you to just go down without serious damage.

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