dealing with tiers

[hivedragon]

I think everyone knows of this system. How do you deal with the obvious diferences in the power of classes? (don't say anything about 4e ). Do you nerf some of the stronger classes? Do you use gestalt? Or are your party members happy to be the runt of the litter (casters at level 5 and below and non casters at level 10 and above)

[OnePep]

I've played a tier 2 char (sorcerer) once. All other characters I've played where tier 3 or lower.
Because I wanted to DM, I decided to play a caster.
As if it was ment to be, I was invited to play with another group and I've grabbed my chance and build me a Mystic Theurge (Illumian archivist/wizard/MT).
The group consisted of three players (me, a rogue and a warlock) and a DM. We started out at lvl 5.
I thought we had a nice first session. But the warlock pm-ed me shortly after that. He thought I overruled him too much, for I did everything he would like his character to be best at. (Maybe a bit exaggerated...)
Now we've agreed that I will take the controle/buff/debuff role and things run smoothly now.

So I guess you could say D&D is a teamsport. If you have the better build, don't prove it all the time.

[Ernir]

Have you taken a look at the suggestions JaronK makes in his posting of the tier system? Are you looking for more suggestions? Or are you looking for a popularity check of the numerous suggestions already out there?

[Pyro_Azer]

If there is no problem there is no need for a fix. If the players do not constantly step on each others toes and hog the spotlight there is no need to adjust the mechanics. When I play a wizard I can easily open any door I come across with knock, but I don't. Why? Because that is the time for the rogue player's time to shine.

[Greenish]

When I play a wizard I can easily open any door I come across with knock, but I don't. Why? Because that is the time for the rogue player's time to shine.

Unless it's arcane locked.

[Pyro_Azer]

Unless it's arcane locked.

Eh, when I am a rogue I do this.
So even if it is arcane locked.

[FMArthur]

Unless it's arcane locked.

Pfft. Your rogues must be doing something wrong, then. Proper rogues are of the "huge, super-strong, doesn't-like-big-words and gets angry if looked at" variety, with big two-handed lockpicks capable of bypassing Arcane Locks and a penchant for using them on doors regardless of whether or not they are locked.

[Godskook]

I think everyone knows of this system. How do you deal with the obvious diferences in the power of classes? (don't say anything about 4e ). Do you nerf some of the stronger classes? Do you use gestalt? Or are your party members happy to be the runt of the litter

I encourage a certain level of optimization such that tier 4 is the bare minimum.

(casters at level 5 and below and non casters at level 10 and above)

You're confused good sir.

-Druids have Entangle, decent AC, decent HP, a few useful skills(spot, listen, sense motive are all wis based class skills), decent attacks from Shillelagh, and an Animal Companion that's a better fighter than your party's fighter(ironic, no?)

-Clerics have *HIGH* AC, decent HP, healing, domains(possibly useful), buff/debuff spells, and if you're facing undead, this is the time frame when turning is useful, since at higher levels, most undead's HD outstrip your ECL by a good deal, or you've prestiged into something that doesn't progress turning level. I had a cleric PC quit on me, and the party's scout decided to gank him cause he was acting 'weird'. Well, I ran it, and 5-6 combat rounds later, the cleric was tying the scout up, having won handily(Hold person was used).

-Wizards, well, an Abrupt Jaunt wizard is a better tank than the party tank, and that's while looking like the squishy. That's not to mention all the *SPELLS* that are available at this level. Benign Transposition, Dimension Step, Glitterdust, Web, Grease, Alter Self, Heroics, Mirror Move, Mirror Image, etc, etc. Seriously, level 2 spells are notoriously powerful imho, and many of them are that way from the moment you pick them.

-Sorcerers, see wizard

That covers core. Need I go on?

[Amnestic]

Do you nerf some of the stronger classes? Do you use gestalt? Or are your party members happy to be the runt of the litter (casters at level 5 and below and non casters at level 10 and above)

No.
Only if everyone is gestalting freely and equally.
No.

It's quite simple really: You simply agree not to break the game and not to outdo each other. Druids may be an exception in that it's very easy to end up kicking all sorts of ass without trying, but even then it's not likely going to be a problem.

[MeeposFire]

I have yet to have to deal with it. My players have unintentionally have managed to stay within the same relative power level and when not I find ways to keep the challenge. That said I know how bad it can be done and it was a TON of work. Which is one reason that I refuse to DM anymore 3e type games, possibly forever, since the result was not worth the time and effort. Playing is alright though.

[Seerow]

No.
Only if everyone is gestalting freely and equally.
No.

It's quite simple really: You simply agree not to break the game and not to outdo each other. Druids may be an exception in that it's very easy to end up kicking all sorts of ass without trying, but even then it's not likely going to be a problem.

Honestly if you're using gestalt you've given up any pretense of a mechanically balanced game in the first place, so tiers should be the last thing on your mind.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

i generally ignore the tier system itself. most players play at a equal level of play anyway.

[McStabbington]

I've found that effective multiclassing can turn even crappy classes into something that is highly effective. Of course, it doesn't always work out consistently. In one of my last games, we were trying our first evil party, and I had a drow hexblade/spellthief with a penchant for poisons. While the hexblade and the spellthief on their own are pretty crappy, put this stuff together and I could basically take out any Tier one character (druid excepted, which they didn't have) I wanted. Any spell that didn't simply bounce off of me I could make the save on easily, and with evasion and mettle, that meant 0 damage for moi while they frantically threw every spell they had at me. Of course, it also meant I was chopped liver for the evil monk that ultimately throttled me to death when I turned on the party. There was quite literally nothing I could do against him, despite the monk being pretty low-tier.

[big teej]

I think everyone knows of this system. How do you deal with the obvious diferences in the power of classes? (don't say anything about 4e ). Do you nerf some of the stronger classes? Do you use gestalt? Or are your party members happy to be the runt of the litter (casters at level 5 and below and non casters at level 10 and above)

I expect my players to be mature enough to keep things in check. the occaisional "I'm new to the class" mistakes are acceptable. but my table has a standing agreement on game-breaking things.

"don't"

the long version is "don't. or else"


granted, I do consider myself blessed with one of the greatest groups in existence!

[MeeposFire]

I expect my players to be mature enough to keep things in check. the occaisional "I'm new to the class" mistakes are acceptable. but my table has a standing agreement on game-breaking things.

"don't"

the long version is "don't. or else"


granted, I do consider myself blessed with one of the greatest groups in existence!

That works alright assuming the game breaking is obvious. Sometimes the fact it breaks the game isn't obvious until you have used it such as gate. Use it exactly as intended can break the game or use some of the lower level spells that make the other classes feel bad but do so unintentionally. Many cases of the worst stuff is stuff being exactly as designed.

[Amphetryon]

i generally ignore the tier system itself. most players play at a equal level of play anyway.

This sentiment does not echo my experience.

Seriously consider banning Tier 5, and using a diminished point buy for Tier 2 and 1. Both should help a bit.

[Big Fau]

I ban Tiers 1, 5, and 6. Tier 2 is more manageable than Tier 1 (less spells to worry about), and Tiers 3/4 are the most entertaining to DM for.

[NNescio]

I've found that effective multiclassing can turn even crappy classes into something that is highly effective. Of course, it doesn't always work out consistently. In one of my last games, we were trying our first evil party, and I had a drow hexblade/spellthief with a penchant for poisons. While the hexblade and the spellthief on their own are pretty crappy, put this stuff together and I could basically take out any Tier one character (druid excepted, which they didn't have) I wanted. Any spell that didn't simply bounce off of me I could make the save on easily, and with evasion and mettle, that meant 0 damage for moi while they frantically threw every spell they had at me. Of course, it also meant I was chopped liver for the evil monk that ultimately throttled me to death when I turned on the party. There was quite literally nothing I could do against him, despite the monk being pretty low-tier.

I take it that your DM isn't a fan of area spells? Which are distressingly common among Tier 1~3 casters? Even if one considers only those they don't allow saves or still have effects even if you saved?

[Alleran]

I've honestly never really had a problem with it in-game. Sometimes it happens during character creation, but it's not hard to stop, since I always make sure to check and see what somebody's final build will be.

[Jack_Simth]

I think everyone knows of this system. How do you deal with the obvious diferences in the power of classes? (don't say anything about 4e ). Do you nerf some of the stronger classes? Do you use gestalt? Or are your party members happy to be the runt of the litter (casters at level 5 and below and non casters at level 10 and above)

It's called the "don't be an idiot" system (well, OK, the real word at the end is a little different, but I try to watch my language). Sure, the "right" cleric build can make the cleric "da bomb" in melee. The "right" Wizard build can end every other encounter with one spell (and the rest with two or three). So don't. If the Cleric casts Recitation while the Wizard casts Haste, the Cleric follows up with Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and the Wizard casts Greater Invisibility on the rogue, then the melee machines become meat grinders, the Rogue becomes death on two feet, and everyone has fun.

It requires, you know, mature players, though.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

This sentiment does not echo my experience.

Seriously consider banning Tier 5, and using a diminished point buy for Tier 2 and 1. Both should help a bit.

so your players compete to see whos the best at everything.

[Godskook]

I've found that effective multiclassing can turn even crappy classes into something that is highly effective. Of course, it doesn't always work out consistently. In one of my last games, we were trying our first evil party, and I had a drow hexblade/spellthief with a penchant for poisons. While the hexblade and the spellthief on their own are pretty crappy, put this stuff together and I could basically take out any Tier one character (druid excepted, which they didn't have) I wanted. Any spell that didn't simply bounce off of me I could make the save on easily, and with evasion and mettle, that meant 0 damage for moi while they frantically threw every spell they had at me. Of course, it also meant I was chopped liver for the evil monk that ultimately throttled me to death when I turned on the party. There was quite literally nothing I could do against him, despite the monk being pretty low-tier.

Wow, poorly played casters then. I'm curious as to how you think you'd handle force-cage+cloudkill.

[big teej]

That works alright assuming the game breaking is obvious. Sometimes the fact it breaks the game isn't obvious until you have used it such as gate. Use it exactly as intended can break the game or use some of the lower level spells that make the other classes feel bad but do so unintentionally. Many cases of the worst stuff is stuff being exactly as designed.

an excellent and valid point.

and our group is aware of this, our mantra is "don't do it on purpose, and mention it in advance if you think it might."

now, if despite all our attempts at prevention/anticipation, someone accidentally breaks the game (such as the aforementioned Gate) we identify what the problem is and why it was a problem. then we (will) move to correct the issue.

as of now the group has played from 1 - 5 and we're doing okay, and our last session before the semester helped greatly illilstrat... crap.
illistrate
illustrate
....
helped greatly illustrate(?) what I've been talkin about, we have a cleric player that, after myself and the paladin, has the greatest working knowledge of the rules, and applied this knowledge to buff the party for a fight with a dragon.

more than once was the entire party stunned by the effects of some of his spells.

so I believe they're learning about what to worry about, and I have little to no fear about them avoiding it.

[Midnight_v]

In my last game I banned anything that below tier 4...
Without saying so... I said, for this game "Here are the classes available"
Which met with a few groans, cause I had a player who didn't want to learn a new system...
I was like hey, its the new system game!
To which they responded "but sorcerer is on this list!"

To which I responded... "Wait... are any of you gonna wanting to play a sorcerer or a wizard? No?"
"Its the new systems game!"

and yeah... that was playing it dirty they were a new group with a couple novice players and we had just started the new campaign, this go round...

I get the players to come together and make their pcs as a group, and decide how each person is going to contribute, specifically.
When the guy who was thinking to be a monk, discussed it with the crew and they casters were like "My character idea, doesn't really focus on buffing so much each fight, y'know?" he actually turned tack and chose a Crusader instead, saying the whole thing he wanted to do was tie people up in combat and protect the casters, "not die, had been thinking bout tanking the whole time".
Since he kinda got the idea in the last campaign thats what crusaders were about. He took the EXACT SAME backstory for his monk and wholesale ported it to the crusader.
The other players looked like "aren't you playing a different pc" He said "NO! I'm playing the same pc, he was just trained in a rare and better martial arts"
I was so proud

[peacenlove]

A weird solution for my group was the following: I deal with the fighting, they deal with out of combat / support in combat roles. Most of my players, who decide to DM, put absurdly easy encounters (for example a duo of hill giants when he knows I am an enchanter specialist ) and our sessions are freeform RP so the less optimized players can shine. However this works only because we have discussed it before with both the players and the DM.

When I am a DM (the majority of the time), I ban wizards and force clerics and druids to be spontaneous casters (ala unearthed arcana) by default. Also I require concepts and guidelines from my players (I deal nowadays mostly with new ones) and I create the characters. With my previous group we spent a session to oversee their characters before play, so we can trade optimization advice.
If, somehow a player outshines the party, it is not uncommon for the party to face a greater than normal challenge, resulting in the player killed but the party having greater treasure after (hopefully) defeating the challenge. This of course is again with the agreement of said player and only applicable in my old gaming group.
Lastly I default my games in T2 territory for my old players and T3 for new ones because purely by coincidence T3 seems the easiest to learn if instructed (short spell lists, tome of battle with his cards, incarnum is easier than it seems etc)

[Amphetryon]

so your players compete to see whos the best at everything.

Nope, didn't say that.

[navar100]

Ignore it.

It's the DM's job to ensure everyone has spotlight time. It is his job to ensure no one Wins D&D and no one Loses D&D. If he can't stand that, he shouldn't be DM. The only thing that matters is what the PCs for that particular game can do, not what is theoretically possible given all the time in the world, access to everything ever published by 3E, and having exactly what you need at the moment you need it.

[olentu]

Ignore it.

It's the DM's job to ensure everyone has spotlight time. It is his job to ensure no one Wins D&D and no one Loses D&D. If he can't stand that, he shouldn't be DM. The only thing that matters is what the PCs for that particular game can do, not what is theoretically possible given all the time in the world, access to everything ever published by 3E, and having exactly what you need at the moment you need it.

So ignore the difference in power of classes and then address the difference in power of classes. It seems sort of silly to go through all the trouble of ignoring what you are trying to mitigate.

[ImperatorK]

Ignore it.

It's the DM's job to ensure everyone has spotlight time. It is his job to ensure no one Wins D&D and no one Loses D&D. If he can't stand that, he shouldn't be DM. The only thing that matters is what the PCs for that particular game can do, not what is theoretically possible given all the time in the world, access to everything ever published by 3E, and having exactly what you need at the moment you need it.

Then why ignore it? It is very helpful for a DMs job.

[navar100]

Yes, ignore it.

Only pay attention to what the player characters for the particular game you are running can do. If the fighter likes to Trip, stop it already with the large flying four-legged monsters. If the druid likes to stay in wild shape as a bear the whole day because he has Natural Spell, fine, but he's useless during non-combat time when the party is in the city gathering info, getting supplies, or investigating. When the druid player sighs and agree to end/use up his wild shape back to human form, the bad guys catch wind of the players investigating and set up an ambush. The druid can't wildshape freely because a) the populace will not just accept a bear walking around their city and b) they could be in a building, an alley, or a sewer tube where wildshaping into a large animal wouldn't be prudent. The druid still has his fun being a bear in other combats. If the wizard Gates in a Solar every combat, either you are making combats too easy and the wizard is really just wasting a 9th level spell and XP when a lower level spell would do or you made the combat tough where the wizard had to Gate in a Solar and you were counting on it.