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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    I never saw it, but I like the idea and ask you: Would it be good enough to play?

    • What does a character need to be a good rogue/barbarian crossclassed-character?
    • What combat roles could he still fill and what could he not fill in?
    • How high/low would his damage be?
    • How high/low would his tanking skills be?
    • What out-of-combat roles could he still fill in?
    • What Feats/Classes/Prestige Classes/Races support a Barbarian/Rogue?
    • What does this guy need in his party to be useful? (Is another BSF needed for flanking?)

    I think about playing such a guy and he needs to be as good as the other guys (obv to keep the same strenght so noone feels useless). My party is atm: A Spellscale Wilder (glass-canon and face), a Whisper-Gnome rogue with craven (glass-canon and skill-monkey), a Warforged Artificer and a Barbarian heading to Frenzied Berserker. But until I make a new char (I keep my old one until he dies) I assume most have them got new characters of the same optimization-level.

    Random facts that could be useful:
    - Two times uncanny dodge gets to Improved Uncanny Dodge, two times improved uncanny dodge (or uncanny dodge of one class + IUD of the other class) lets the levels of both classes stack for improved uncanny dodge.
    - Craven helps a lot to fix the sneak attack damage

    Any ideas/answers/build suggestions?
    Last edited by Tr011; 2011-06-21 at 09:31 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    Sneak attack doesn't require any specific weapon and has no armour restrictions. As such, rogue + any fighter class works pretty well as a damage dealer thanks to the combination of decent BAB and damage bonus from sneak attack.

    You'd want to be wearing light armour though since the rogue class loses certain abilities in heavier armour.

    This combo would have good damage output, but due to armour restrictions would be a bit of a glass cannon - fairly good HP but not so good AC.

    Out of combat your character would still have their rogue skills so they'd be pretty well off.

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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    You'll only have a couple of dice, but you can greatly benefit from them. Staggering Strike is a GREAT feat for you, as you only need 1d6 SA to trigger it, and it's save is based on your TOTAL damage. So if you PA for 10 with a greatsword and get +20 damage, and add your 1d6 SA on top of that, the whole thing adds together for your Staggering Strike DC. Get really angry, surround your foe with plenty of friends, and hit him so hard he's crippled.

    I'd check how many Rogue levels you take. I'd either take 4, or 8, to minimize BAB losses. Also, spread them out so you can keep the skills you REALLY need topped off.

    If you can, try using the Sneak Attack Fighter ACF instead. That'll get you what you mainly want (the dice) without losing BAB so you can PA more efficiently.

    A PrC to look into, being...decent but not great, is Dread Commando. Big boost to your team's Initiative checks, some extra dice, and the ability to sneak around at full speed in full plate!
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    Ok I thought about it and I think I make him a low-AC-Charger who hopes in Flanking. Barbarian and Rogue (with Fighter Feats) combined with one level of Fighter (the Variant with Drow's Dex to damage against flat-fooded) and then Nightsong Enforce.

    Would look like that:
    Race: Exiled Human (+2 to one ability) Dragonborn (with wings)

    Rogue 1 Improved Ini (Fighter Feat), Trapfinding, Dodge (lvl1 Feat)
    Fighter 1 Power Attack (Fighter Feat), +2 Ini, dex to damage against flat-flooded
    Barbarian 1 Pounce, Rage, Combat Reflexes (lvl3 Feat)
    Rogue 2 Evasion, Powerful Charge (Fighter Feat)
    Barbarian 2 Uncanny Dodge
    Barbarian 3 Trapkiller (Dungeonscape), Karmic Strike (lvl6 Feat)
    Rogue 3 Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape)
    Rogue 4 Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) (Fighter Feat), Improved Uncanny Dodge
    Nightsong Enforcer 1 Sneak Attack +1d6, teamwork (hear/see), Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) (lvl9 Feat)

    That would be in total a Strength-based Barbarian with lots of skills, 4d6+3d12+1d10+1d8 Hit Dice and 3d6 Sneak, with Pounce and only a lose of one BAB. Combat Reflexes and Power Attack works nice with Karmic Strike, but I miss the Exotic Weapon Proficiency because some range would be nice.
    Also I'm getting a low Reflex save, that's not nice with Evasion (Improved Evasion is available at level 16). The sneak attack improves well with the levels above 9 due to the levels in Nightsong Enforcer.

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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    The key thing to consider here is what role this guy is going to play. Is he primarily a Rogue, or primarily a Barbarian, or some mix of the two?

    Rogue with a dash of Barbarian probably benefits more than Barbarian with a dash of Rogue. Just a couple levels of Barbarian will give the Rogue proficiency in all martial weapons and medium armor, average 3 extra hp per level, fast movement, and a bump to Fort save. Pounce instead of Fast Movement if Lion Totem (CChamp, not UA) is available.

    Just a couple levels of Rogue will give the Barbarian sneak attack and evasion. Which are both fine if you're trying to qualify for specific PrC's, but not terrifically useful for regular combat.

    Even split of levels is almost always a bad idea. Medium power + medium power /= high power.

    How about: Rogue1/Barbarian1/Ftr2/Rogue2-17. Strength-based, especially if Pounce is in play; but decent Dex.

    Rogue1 Power Attack
    Rogue1/Barb1/Ftr1 Improved Bull Rush, Craven
    Rogue1/Barb1/Ftr2 Combat Reflexes
    Rogue3/Barb1/Ftr2 Improved Initiative
    Rogue6/Barb1/Ftr2 Shock Trooper
    Rogue9/Barb1/Ftr2 Leap Attack
    Rogue10/Barb1/Ftr2 Improved Evasion (Rogue Ability)
    Rogue12/Barb1/Ftr2 Savvy Rogue
    Rogue13/Barb1/Ftr2 Crippling Strike (Rogue Ability)
    Rogue15/Barb1/Ftr2 ?
    Rogue16/Barb1/Ftr2 Slippery Mind (Rogue Ability)

    Idea behind the build: Character wins initiative and charges with a Greatsword, dealing Power Attack + Leap Attack + Sneak Attack (enemies are still flatfooted) + Craven damage. (Pounce is icing on the cake). Medium armor helps mitigate the Shock Trooper AC problem, higher hitpoints than a normal Rogue lets him be a bit more survivable. Higher Fort save than a normal Rogue as well.

    General tactics: snipe off mooks on the edge of enemy formations by charging. Don't dive in to the center; flank with the person who's diving into the center. Save Rage for very special occasions.

    At 20, you'll have BAB of 16/11/6/1, Hitdice of 16d6+1d12+2d10, Sneak Attack 9d6.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    I thought more of a Barbarian-Style than Rogue-Style (but with only 1 rage/day).
    The benefit of more levels in Barbarian is obviously Improved Uncanny Dodge. You don't get flanked so you don't get sneak-attacked down.
    I thought a bit about Craven: It's nice on the paper but it involves that you play a coward. The Will+ of Barbarian's Rage can cancel this effect out imo, but if you don't rage your coward of a character would never charge into enemies.
    Also, I don't think Leap Attack is better than Powerful Charge. Leap attack gets up to +1 damage/BAB on a charge, Powerful Charge gets 1d8 (average 4.5) unbuffed, 2d6 with any item granting you more size (average 7) and 3d6 with item+buff (average 10.5) - with no need of sacrificing the BAB (you wouldn't sacrifice much BAB against armored enemies before you know their AC).

    Btw you can't use medium armor since you loose evasion if you do...

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    Leap Attack is better if you consider Shocktrooper. Shocktrooper, as noted, allows you to PA off of your AC, instead of your BAB. This gives you a massive boost to your damage with no expense to your accuracy. If you kill your foe outright, it doesn't matter how low your AC is.

    That said, I personally don't like Shocktrooper, and don't think its balanced. Power Attack is fine without it, and it turns the character into a "kill or be killed" setting. The difference is, that never favors the character. The character needs to kill each foe, and will face many foes. A single enemy just has to kill the character once. I just think that the feat detracts from the fun of the game. This is my opinion (and yes, melee can have nice things, its called ToB), so take it for what you will.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tr011 View Post
    I thought more of a Barbarian-Style than Rogue-Style (but with only 1 rage/day).
    The benefit of more levels in Barbarian is obviously Improved Uncanny Dodge. You don't get flanked so you don't get sneak-attacked down.
    I thought a bit about Craven: It's nice on the paper but it involves that you play a coward. The Will+ of Barbarian's Rage can cancel this effect out imo, but if you don't rage your coward of a character would never charge into enemies.
    Also, I don't think Leap Attack is better than Powerful Charge. Leap attack gets up to +1 damage/BAB on a charge, Powerful Charge gets 1d8 (average 4.5) unbuffed, 2d6 with any item granting you more size (average 7) and 3d6 with item+buff (average 10.5) - with no need of sacrificing the BAB (you wouldn't sacrifice much BAB against armored enemies before you know their AC).

    Btw you can't use medium armor since you loose evasion if you do...
    Leap attack is usually better for damage output if combined with Shock Trooper. The power attack comes out of your AC, not your attack bonus, so you can feel free to take away as much as you like. (The caveat being that you should make sure that the enemy is dead, since your AC will be low until the next round). Also, with a 2h weapon (like Greatsword), the damage bonus from Leap Attack is +200%, not +100%. The usual ratio for 2h power attack is 2 to 1; with leap attack it's an extra +2 per power attack point, for a total return of 4 for 1. Power Attack 3 gets you +12 damage, outdoing Powerful Charge+item+buff on its own.

    Of course there's no reason you can't plug in Powerful Charge to that empty feat slot and get both.

    Good catch on Evasion - Something was telling me that there was a reason Rogues didn't take it even if they got proficiency, but my brain must have skipped over that one when scanning the description.

    I honestly wouldn't worry about IUD. Unless you're fighting against an equal-character level Rogue with a flanking buddy, you really won't have any problems. It's not going to come up that often in most campaigns.

    EDIT: (Sudden Strike by the equal-or-greater-level Keld ninja)
    Last edited by Telonius; 2011-06-22 at 11:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    The biggest problem is that, with the important exception of UMD, you're basically locked into a single action every round of every combat. "I make a full attack." That's it. It gets boring after a while.

    (True of pretty much every Tier 4 or lower build, but I digress).

    So I suggest that you pick a Prestige Class that breaks from this mold and gives you additional options to have fun with. Good examples include the Chameleon (spells from any list), War Mind (psionics, Sweeping Strike), Runescarred Berserker (full BAB and spells from a great list), Totem Rager (soulmelds), or something similar.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    the damage bonus from Leap Attack is +200%, not +100%. The usual ratio for 2h power attack is 2 to 1; with leap attack it's an extra +2 per power attack point, for a total return of 4 for 1. Power Attack 3 gets you +12 damage, outdoing Powerful Charge+item+buff on its own.
    It's just 3 for 1 instead of 2 for 1 since multiplying in DnD means 2*2=3. I often forget that, too.

    So power attack 3 gets you +9 instead of +6.
    With IUD ur probably right... And if anyone is really sneaking me, he will be a higher rogue-level than 7. So I have to rebuild the build a bit and I'll look at shock-trooper. Probably taking this.

    @Person_Man: Ur right, I have to get some options to help me out of a simple "Charge" and "full attack".

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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tr011 View Post
    It's just 3 for 1 instead of 2 for 1 since multiplying in DnD means 2*2=3. I often forget that, too.

    So power attack 3 gets you +9 instead of +6.
    With IUD ur probably right... And if anyone is really sneaking me, he will be a higher rogue-level than 7. So I have to rebuild the build a bit and I'll look at shock-trooper. Probably taking this.

    @Person_Man: Ur right, I have to get some options to help me out of a simple "Charge" and "full attack".
    Not a mistake or a forgetting; text says "triple" not "double." 2*3=4.
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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    I think I can get much better by playing a barbarian using the party rogue... as a thrown weapon. Here's the build:

    Race: Half-Minotaur (with any LA+0 race, don't know yet what)
    1 LA (+12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, Int -2, +5 NA, -1 attack, +10 ft., Darkvision 60ft, Scent, +2 Search, Spot, Listen, Track)
    2 Barbarian with Improved Grab (ACF from CC) + Rage, Point Blank Shot (l1 Feat)
    4 Monk with Improved Grapple
    3 Fighter with Brutal Throw, Fling Enemy (l3 Feat)
    5 Warblade
    6 Warblade
    7-16 Bloodstorm Blade (l6 Feat Multigrab, l8 Bonus Feat Precise Shot...)

    The problems with this build would be that it's pretty unclear how and if the thrown character (rogue) can act (can he attack an enemy if he's getting thrown to him?). And I need one Iron Heart Stance, but the first Iron Heart Stance is available at level 3 (or level 5 Warblade or 2 levels warblade + 5 other levels). But I need one for Bloodstorm Blade.
    Also, the monk level is pretty crappy, but needed for IUS (prereq for Improved Grapple). I need many feats, but also my BAB.

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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Not a mistake or a forgetting; text says "triple" not "double." 2*3=4.
    It's actually your mistake, because the text actually says something completely different. Remember, always check for errata.

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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    It's actually your mistake, because the text actually says something completely different. Remember, always check for errata.
    Much as I hesitate to disagree with you, the errata doesn't change the triple. The original text is:
    You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can
    double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
    Errata text is:

    The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:
    If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.
    Which makes the corrected entry:

    You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent.If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
    It doesn't say delete the third sentence, or set the two-handed bonus equal to the one-handed bonus; just correct the second sentence. "Triple" is still there, unless they're released an errata of the errata.
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    If you go barbarian/rogue then TWF (oversized TWF) could be an option. Especially with Pounce. You'll get a lot of mileage out of SA damage that way.

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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Much as I hesitate to disagree with you, the errata doesn't change the triple.
    The errata leave that word in place, but obviate its use, though. You have to look at both errata to get there. We start with the Complete Adventurer Errata file.
    you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat
    What does that mean? Well, the Complete Warrior Errata answers that for us:
    Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls.
    So, working through the nested errata files, we've got a complete explanation for the altered benefit from Leap Attack: +100% the normal Power Attack damage means +2 damage per -1 penalty (1-handed weapon) and +4 damage per -1 penalty (2-handed weapon). Then the "If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple ..." part is referring to something that's already been changed by errata.
    Errata Rule: Primary Sources

    When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct.
    That's "an" errata file, not limited to the particular file for any individual book. The "triple" word is still there, but the altered text renders it moot.

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    Default Re: Barbarian/Rogue playable?

    I've seen the Pounce+SA+Craven thing used to great effect with various forms of Invisibility (for SA) and Wraithstrike to really great effect, you might want to look into some Assassin levels if that sounds appealing (That would hedge you into Chaotic Evil though! ).
    Last edited by DeAnno; 2011-06-23 at 03:19 PM.

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