The Brawler (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

[NeoSeraphi]

Looks like a really fun class. Mostly different abilities that the Monk or Fighter SHOULD have, but don't, for whatever reason.

I'd have to say my main confusion comes with when you can use what attacks. Just from looking at it, it seems there's nothing stopping me from using a Concentrated Leaping Devastating Stunning punch. Why is that? Which skills interact with which others? Is there a criteria for which skills combine (other than that you can't combine different full-round actions)?

Also, I'm kind of not seeing a reason NOT to use Concentrating Punch and Leaping Punch for every attack. Concentrating Punch adds an untyped bonus to your attack rolls that ALWAYS grants a bonus, effectively doubling your attack roll every time if you invest at least a marginal amount (to put things in perspective, a level 3 Brawler with 18 STR and 16 CON who maxes ranks in Concentration has an attack bonus of 6 + 4 + 3 + 3 = 16, before rolling EITHER the Concentration check OR the attack roll (and if you roll 1 or 2, respectively, the minimum before critical fumbles if you use them, you still get a 19 result at level 3). As you can see, "roll to hit" becomes extremely trivialized, and ADDING the Concentration check to your to-hit roll (instead of replacing it, like a certain Diamond Mind maneuver does for damage) means that, at level 3 and onward, you can replace your ENTIRE BAB with Power Attack or Defensive Punch and still have level+3 to-hit, PLUS two relevant to-hit modifiers, PLUS a 2d20 and add attack roll. Even untrained, adding a second attribute and an extra d20 to-hit is quite powerful, and you shouldn't expect to miss on anything but a 1 for as many as 18 levels. (It also means Defensive Punch and Power Attack can be maxed at any time, meaning you effectively have your level to AC or damage on all attacks without really incurring a real chance to miss.)

As for Leaping Punch, at least it's a binary pass-fail skill, unlike Concentrating Punch, but you gain a reward for succeeding and lose nothing for failing (not even the action you're leaping on), so even if you only succeed on a 19 or 20, there's no reason not to jump EVERY TIME, so as to at least get the double bonus that 10% of the time. Imagine Power Attack without an attack roll penalty! Some sort of penalty for failing the check (like, instead of "deciding not to jump", "your jump falls short, putting you off-balance and incurring a to-hit penalty equal to the number by which you missed the DC) would balance that out nicely.

Defensive Punch specifically states it can't be used at the same time as Concentrated Punch.

So if you want to Concentrated Punch every round, that's fine. But you effectively knock your AC to 0. Every round. In exchange for a guarantee to hit. There's also no way to limit it. For instance, if your BAB is +6, and you just need a +2 to hit or so, you still have to take the 14 or so you roll for your Concentration check and take that hit to your AC. The class already has Full BAB, so Concentrated Punch provides very diminished returns as the levels go on.

You can't combine Leaping Punch with any of the other punches except Stunning and Concentrated, because all the punches require a Full Round action, and you can't have more than one full round action per round. You COULD use a Leaping Concentrated Stunning Punch, but not every round as Leaping Punch requires you to charge, so unless you're dropping a foe every round (unlikely), you'll only be using Leaping Punch on one enemy. It provides the same bonus to a charger that the Valorous weapon enhancement provides, (double damage on all charges) but with a required skill check instead of simply paying 8000 gp for an auto-double damage ability.

[Rossebay]

I'm gonna be honest:
I almost pissed my pants reading the class feature descriptions. Oh, wow.
Really considering playing a half-orc brawler or something like that in the near future. This class is fantastic.
I only wish there was something Falcon-Punch esque.

The racial descriptions had me laughing for about 5 minutes, and Quantum Punch Defense caught me for some reason and I was laughing at THAT for a good 2 minutes.

Needless to say, I'm VERY happy that I happened across this thread at such a late hour. Really made my day.

On topic, I really like the way this class runs. It's all melee, all focused on doing whatever the hell you feel like with one swift punch to the face. There's no real way around it. You punch enemies in the face. I like that. The DM asks me what I'm gonna do?
I'm gonna punch 'em in the face. And that, to me, is more rewarding than dropping some pansy-ass comets on them.

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm gonna be honest:
I almost pissed my pants reading the class feature descriptions. Oh, wow.
Really considering playing a half-orc brawler or something like that in the near future. This class is fantastic.
I only wish there was something Falcon-Punch esque.

The racial descriptions had me laughing for about 5 minutes, and Quantum Punch Defense caught me for some reason and I was laughing at THAT for a good 2 minutes.

Needless to say, I'm VERY happy that I happened across this thread at such a late hour. Really made my day.

On topic, I really like the way this class runs. It's all melee, all focused on doing whatever the hell you feel like with one swift punch to the face. There's no real way around it. You punch enemies in the face. I like that. The DM asks me what I'm gonna do?
I'm gonna punch 'em in the face. And that, to me, is more rewarding than dropping some pansy-ass comets on them.

Fist of Fire
Prerequisites: Unarmed Damage 2d10, Must be mature enough to not make obvious F-Zero references every time you use this feat
Benefits: You may charge your fists with powerful fire energy to unleash a devastating attack. As a standard action, you may deliver a deadly punch that deals your normal unarmed strike damage, plus 1d8 fire damage per 2 character levels. After using this feat, you must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.
Special: You may treat this feat as a breath weapon for the purposes of the following feats (this also allows you to qualify for those feats) Maximize Breath, Lingering Breath, Empower Breath, Quicken Breath

There you go. Have fun smacking people down!

[Kellus]

Fist of Fire
Prerequisites: Unarmed Damage 2d10, Must be mature enough to not make obvious F-Zero references every time you use this feat
Benefits: You may charge your fists with powerful fire energy to unleash a devastating attack. As a standard action, you may deliver a deadly punch that deals your normal unarmed strike damage, plus 1d8 fire damage per 2 character levels. You can choose to have this ability deliver an awesome blow even if you don't meet the prerequisites for the feat. To use that option you must assume a -4 penalty to your attack roll, with an additional -4 penalty for every size category the target is greater than the normal limit. After using this feat, you must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.
Special: You may treat this feat as a breath weapon for the purposes of the following feats (this also allows you to qualify for those feats) Maximize Breath, Lingering Breath, Empower Breath, Quicken Breath

Fixed that for you.

[NeoSeraphi]

Fixed that for you.

Why thank you good sir! Yes, this fits better

[NeoSeraphi]

Alright, well since Quelliran wasn't offering any advice, I put the limited regeneration in at level 10. It only applies to weapons, but now he has a strong defense against melee, even with 0 AC.

[Zeta Kai]

I really like this class, & I don't mind that it doesn't have any explicit movement options to supplement its highly-focused feature set. That's what WBL is for! If you wanna punch a flying dragon, buy a magic carpet, or a flying broom, or a potion of fly, or any of the other myriad means of gaining flight in this game. You want mobility? A potion of freedom of movement plus a wand of dimension door will serve you well. This class doesn't need to spend money on weapons, which are the most expensive magical items in the game, so it should have a lot of money freed up for all sorts of other gear. I don't see a problem with this, only an opportunity for more punching. Which is a damn good thing, as I'm all out of bubble gum.

[NeoSeraphi]

I really like this class, & I don't mind that it doesn't have any explicit movement options to supplement its highly-focused feature set. That's what WBL is for! If you wanna punch a flying dragon, buy a magic carpet, or a flying broom, or a potion of fly, or any of the other myriad means of gaining flight in this game. You want mobility? A potion of freedom of movement plus a wand of dimension door will serve you well. This class doesn't need to spend money on weapons, which are the most expensive magical items in the game, so it should have a lot of money freed up for all sorts of other gear. I don't see a problem with this, only an opportunity for more punching. Which is a damn good thing, as I'm all out of bubble gum.

Thank you. Yes, other than, say, an Amulet of Mighty Fist, or some material gloves (Cold Iron and silver), you can't really improve your weapon with money. (Unless you want to go kensai, but that would just be weird...) So you can spend all that extra cash on...say, things you actually need! Like Bracers of Armor, if you're into that.

[Zeta Kai]

Like Bracers of Armor, if you're into that.

I am into that, as a matter of fact. And since magical armor costs about half of what magical weapons do, you could deck out your Brawler in all kinds of protections & still have enough coin to load 'em up with crazy gear. I always feel like my melee characters are strapped for cash, due to weapon costs, but the Brawler here free up my finances so I can splurge on really fun things while still getting the bases covered.

[SilverSavio]

I think that some of the Feats for the monk could be reworked for the Brawler quite well like Pain Touch. Call it "I think you broked my nose!!!" or Ow My Nose for short.

Ow My Nose
You can punch someone in the face so hard that they will be checking the pain in their face to make sure their nose ain't broke.

Prerequisites: Str 15, Stunning Punch, BAB +2

Benefit: You punch them so hard that the round after a successful Stunning Punch that your opponent will be stunned for one additional round from pain from where you hit.


Maybe also turning Weakening Touch into Dead Punch

Dead Punch
A brawler knows how to punch the strength out of his opponent.

Prerequisites: Str 17, Punch Them In The Face, BAB +2

Benefit: A successful punch causes no damage and the target to take a -6 Str penalty for 1 round/2 levels. Any other attempts while in effect do not stack but instead reset the clock.

[NeoSeraphi]

I think that some of the Feats for the monk could be reworked for the Brawler quite well like Pain Touch. Call it "I think you broked my nose!!!" or Ow My Nose for short.

Ow My Nose
You can punch someone in the face so hard that they will be checking the pain in their face to make sure their nose ain't broke.

Prerequisites: Str 15, Stunning Punch, BAB +2

Benefit: You punch them so hard that the round after a successful Stunning Punch that your opponent will be stunned for one additional round from pain from where you hit.


Maybe also turning Weakening Touch into Dead Punch

Dead Punch
A brawler knows how to punch the strength out of his opponent.

Prerequisites: Str 17, Punch Them In The Face, BAB +2

Benefit: A successful punch causes no damage and the target to loose 6 points in Strength for 1 round/2 levels. Any other attempts while in effect do not stack but instead reset the clock.

Although I could just be a moron who has no idea what he's doing

This is good, though, I would have to disagree with your wording on Dead Punch- it would be "takes a -6 Str penalty". (There's a huge difference in 3.5 between ability penalties and ability damage)

Other than that, nice! Good feat ideas.

[SilverSavio]

I've been thinking some more and I think I have a couple more feats that go with the brawler theme.

Arms of a Contender
You've been punching so many faces in your life that your arms have become outstanding at delivering force.

Prerequisites: Str 17, Punch Them in the Face, BAB +3 (or higher)

Benefit: You are capable of delivering more force then your average puncher. Your add your Str * 1.5 for every punch you throw and only to punches.

Arms of a Champion
There is no force greater at rearranging faces then your blows.

Prerequisites: Str 19 or 20, Punch Them in the Face, Arms of a Contender, BAB +6 (or much higher)

Benefit: You are at the top tier of the punching world. Your arms are capable of delivering double power (Atk+Str*2) for your strikes.

Spoiler

Show

The idea I have behind these two feats is that a brawler's arm strength for striking should be higher then anyone else because that is all he does. These really help cement in how much better at tenderizing flesh a brawler is with these feats then just a part time one (multiclass dip). I hope this idea that is balanced, but it most certainly does fit the theme.

Ringside Coach
The Brawler isn't the smartest person around town and isn't the most liked. To survive sometimes he needs an ally with some brains telling him who he can punch to get what he wants. Not only that the brawlers companion has to know something about punching people in the face and how to give proper advice.

Prerequisites: Punch Them in the Face

Benefit: The ally to the brawler can have any number of reason to be helping the brawler although one thing is universal, they enable the brawler punch people in the face better. The ally usually stays away from the fight and can give situational advice to the brawler. This ally can be of any class but they tend to favor rouges and bards. [Other vital info I am most likely missing like the actual numbers they help.]

Spoiler

Show

This one is simple for me about how my thought process developed it. I was thinking of boxers and their coaches. People who stand their and just give advice on how to hit. Of course Leadership is already there so this might just be redundant.

[SilverSavio]

Would the Brawler's unarmed damage scale like a Monk's when applied to creatures of smaller/larger sizes?

[NeoSeraphi]

Not like a monk's, since it uses a completely different damage scheme. More like this:

Small Monk: 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 5d6
Large Monk: 2d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 10d8

[SilverSavio]

Not like a monk's, since it uses a completely different damage scheme. More like this:

Small Monk: 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 5d6
Large Monk: 2d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 10d8

Oh I know it's not like the Monk's damage table but wouldn't it be more like

Small Brawler: 1d8, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 5d8
Large Brawler: 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 10d6

[NeoSeraphi]

Oh I know it's not like the Monk's damage table but wouldn't it be more like

Small Brawler: 1d8, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 5d8
Large Brawler: 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 10d6

Going off the damage table of the monk's, (which lists 2d10 as 4d8), I would assume the Large damage (as I stated it in my previous post) is correct. As for the small damage, what you have listed is possible, I suppose.

Edit: If it helps, a Large sized bastard sword (which deals 1d10 Medium) deals 2d8 damage, as listed in the SRD. So yeah, 2d8 for every 1d10.

[SilverSavio]

I've been thinking about a way to use Stunning Punches and I think I've come up with something.

Knuckle Sandwhich
A brawler lives to have people taste his knuckles. Those that have the vision, and will power, can turn a stunning blow into one that can feed a village.

Prerequisites: Stunning Punch, BAB +2

Benefit: You can increase the damage of one attack by one size category. Using this ability uses your Stunning Punch for the round.


Is it good, or should I just stop while I'm ahead?

[Shadow Lord]

Neo, you should be ashamed. You forgot the most important thing for any Badass Normal. You forgot...

[NeoSeraphi]

Unfortunately, for Knuckle Sandwich, Improved Natural Attack increases the effective size of a natural attack permanently, but it doesn't stack with other increases in damage, so this particular feat is just subpar to what already exists.

Sorry

And ShadowLord, I made the Fist of Fire feat! I just didn't have the motivational poster. But now I do!

[SilverSavio]

Yes improved natural attack is better but you didn't make mention that a brawler's fists was considered a natural weapon. I should have asked about that first.

I'll just have to go to the drawing board again because it would be fun to have have feat to make opponents eat a knuckle sandwhich. Now to think about what that fun effect could be... Amateur away. <Flies into a white board.>

[NeoSeraphi]

Yes improved natural attack is better but you didn't make mention that a brawler's fists was considered a natural weapon. I should have asked about that first.

I'll just have to go to the drawing board again because it would be fun to have have feat to make opponents eat a knuckle sandwhich. Now to think about what that fun effect could be... Amateur away. <Flies into a white board.>

Er...I didn't think that was necessary, as it's a fist, just like a slam attack is a slam attack..but okay. I'll update the OP now...

[SilverSavio]

While I haven't had any ideas that could use the Knuckle Sandwhich moniker, but I have come up with something else going off of the base idea from Fist of Fire.

Soul of Fire
What is scarier then a man punching your face in? One that is on fire of course. You can set your hands on fire for devastating attacks through badass-ness, but now your very soul of badass-ness can set you ablaze as you rampage across the battlefield.

Prerequisites: Fist of Fire, Angry Brawler or similar Rage ability, Unarmed Damage 2d10

Benefit: When activating Angry Brawler, you may choose to activate Soul of Fire, which sets you ablaze with the effects from Fist of Fire. This fire harms any who comes into contact with it, including those from your fists. You cannot deliver an awesome blow for you are too busy being on fire. Soul of Fire lasts as long as Angry Brawler and cannot be turned off until AB is. After AB is over you may not use FoF for the rest of the encounter just like with the AB ability. Using SoF increases the Condition Status that AB produces by one level (fatigue=>exhausted)

Special: You may treat this feat as a breath weapon for the purposes of the following feats (this also allows you to qualify for those feats) Maximize Breath, Lingering Breath, Empower Breath

Spoiler

Show

The kernel of this idea came from looking at Fiery Fist, Fiery Ki Defense, Fist of Fire, and Angry Brawler. As I thought about it I asked what would be an awesome way to make a better Fiery Ki Defense based off of Fist of Fire. Then I remembered AB and a raging inferno came to my mind. It would give a Brawler more protection while raging was also a thought.

Any comments and advice would be appreciated.

[NeoSeraphi]

While I haven't had any ideas that could use the Knuckle Sandwhich moniker, but I have come up with something else going off of the base idea from Fist of Fire.

Soul of Fire
What is scarier then a man punching your face in? One that is on fire of course. You can set your hands on fire for devastating attacks through badass-ness, but now your very soul of badass-ness can set you ablaze as you rampage across the battlefield.

Prerequisites: Fist of Fire, Angry Brawler or similar Rage ability, Unarmed Damage 2d10

Benefit: When activating Angry Brawler, you may choose to activate Soul of Fire, which sets you ablaze with the effects from Fist of Fire. This fire harms any who comes into contact with it, including those from your fists. You cannot deliver an awesome blow for you are too busy being on fire. Soul of Fire lasts as long as Angry Brawler and cannot be turned off until AB is. After AB is over you may not use FoF for the rest of the encounter just like with the AB ability. Using SoF increases the Condition Status that AB produces by one level (fatigue=>exhausted)

Special: You may treat this feat as a breath weapon for the purposes of the following feats (this also allows you to qualify for those feats) Maximize Breath, Lingering Breath, Empower Breath

Spoiler

Show

The kernel of this idea came from looking at Fiery Fist, Fiery Ki Defense, Fist of Fire, and Angry Brawler. As I thought about it I asked what would be an awesome way to make a better Fiery Ki Defense based off of Fist of Fire. Then I remembered AB and a raging inferno came to my mind. It would give a Brawler more protection while raging was also a thought.

Any comments and advice would be appreciated.

Haha it's fantastic! Nice feat.

[SilverSavio]

I've been thinking about how TWF was said to be a trap for this class, yet I've been trying to think of a flavorful way to give them more attacks. I believe I have come up with a feat for it. I have probably entered the realm of thinking about this too much, but hey I'm enjoying this.

Punch Them in the Face Some More
If you think that your Sunday Punch is all you need, then you probably are a moron. A true practitioner of fist fighting knows not to place their hope in a one hit knock out. Instead opting to use the strength of their arms to throw multiple punches.

Prerequisites: Str 16, Punch Them in the Face

Benefit: For having a high str bonus you can make more attacks at your highest BAB, but you cannot gain more attacks then CL/2 (minimum 1). This ability scales as so: At 1st level for every 3pts of Str modifier you have, gain 1 extra attack (3:1) with attack and damage at a -2; At 5th level it improves to 3:2 with the penalty reducing to -1; At 10th it improves again to 1:1 with no penalty; At 15th 2:3 and 20th 1:3.

These extra attacks can only be made while unarmed and using Punch Them in the Face.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I know that the entire class is based off "punching people in the face" but shouldn't The Brawler be proficient with improvised weapons? If he were truly a brawler then he should be able to use just about anything he can grab and smack his foe with, a bottle, a large rock, the dismembered arm of one of his companions, not JUST his own two fists.

[NeoSeraphi]

I know that the entire class is based off "punching people in the face" but shouldn't The Brawler be proficient with improvised weapons? If he were truly a brawler then he should be able to use just about anything he can grab and smack his foe with, a bottle, a large rock, the dismembered arm of one of his companions, not JUST his own two fists.

By your logic, the monk should be a non-violent Int-based scholar in a robe and the archivist a quiet librarian who never went on adventures.

It's just the name of the class. The class has a narrow focus. Dealing lethal damage with improvised weapons is something that only prestige classes can do, giving it to a base class would actually undermine that system entirely. (And I've already undermined unarmed combat here xD)

[SilverSavio]

By your logic, the monk should be a non-violent Int-based scholar in a robe and the archivist a quiet librarian who never went on adventures.

It's just the name of the class. The class has a narrow focus. Dealing lethal damage with improvised weapons is something that only prestige classes can do, giving it to a base class would actually undermine that system entirely. (And I've already undermined unarmed combat here xD)

You have not undermined unarmed combat here. You have simply empowered it to allow melee jump in front of a Dragon and Punch It in the Face... Really wishing I had an emoticon of that right now.

[NeoSeraphi]

You have not undermined unarmed combat here. You have simply empowered it to allow melee jump in front of a Dragon and Punch It in the Face... Really wishing I had an emoticon of that right now.

The dragon must be punched in the face! There are no other options!

Except grappling the dragon with my beast incarnate prestige class, where I empower grapplers the same way I empowered unarmed combat here!

*shameless self-promoting*

[Sgt. Cookie]

By your logic, the monk should be a non-violent Int-based scholar in a robe and the archivist a quiet librarian who never went on adventures.

It's just the name of the class. The class has a narrow focus. Dealing lethal damage with improvised weapons is something that only prestige classes can do, giving it to a base class would actually undermine that system entirely. (And I've already undermined unarmed combat here xD)

Your point on the PrC is accurate, but they tend to have many other abilities and weapons for use as well. The Brawler simply gets more and more inventive in punching people to death.

[SilverSavio]

Your point on the PrC is accurate, but they tend to have many other abilities and weapons for use as well. The Brawler simply gets more and more inventive in punching people to death.

He has a point here. The Brawler should have some more utility punches because they can tenderize and cook meat already using Fist of Fire. Maybe something like punching the ground for super jumping like Kazuma from S-cry-ed does.

Edit: Maybe give the Brawler an ACF to punch at range instead of Power Word: Punch. Call it Punches from the Punch Dimension. As a full round action you can attack anyone within Double your Movement.