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    Default Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Me and a friend DM are having rules laywers problems in our 3.5 games.

    I have read/seen this page/quote before, but now I need to find it again to read it at the start of my next game tomorrow to make it official THE Dungeon Master himself's Rule 0. Not Rule 1, Rule 0!
    Last edited by Pika...; 2011-06-23 at 11:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Copied this from a forum post, so it might be slightly off, but it does list the page number.

    It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.

    -1E DMG, page 230
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Gary Gygax's Afterword (DMG 1E Pg 230)

    AFTERWORD

    IT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME, NOT THE LETTER OF THE RULES, WHICH IS IMPORTANT. NEVER HOLD TO THE LETTER WRITTEN, NOR ALLOW SOME BARRACKS ROOM LAWYER TO FORCE QUOTATIONS FROM THE RULE BOOK UPON YOU, IF IT GOES AGAINST THE OBVIOUS INTENT OF THE GAME. AS YOU HEW THE LINE WITH RESPECT TO CONFORMITY TO MAJOR SYSTEMS AND UNIFORMITY OF PLAY IN GENERAL, ALSO BE CERTAIN THE GAME IS MASTERED BY YOU AND NOT BY YOUR PLAYERS. WITHIN THE BROAD PARAMETERS GIVEN IN THE ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS VOLUMES, YOU ARE CREATOR AND FINAL ARBITER. BY ORDERING THINGS AS THEY SHOULD BE, THE GAME AS A WHOLE FIRST, YOUR CAMPAIGN NEXT, AND YOUR PARTICIPANTS THEREAFTER, YOU WILL BE PLAYING ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS AS IT WAS MEANT TO BE. MAY YOU FIND AS MUCH PLEASURE IN SO DOING AS THE REST OF US DO!
    *NOTE: His original quote is presented as it appears in all caps with the highlighted sections.
    Last edited by crimson77; 2011-06-24 at 01:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Junkiest writing :p
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh View Post
    Copied this from a forum post, so it might be slightly off, but it does list the page number.

    It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.

    -1E DMG, page 230


    Many thankies!

    Though it has been a few years, I was sure it was a full-page something. Oh well, you all know best.

    Now to prepare to read it to my gorup.
    I just want someone to hold me and tell me they love me. Especially when I am sad.


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    The man who is dominated by fear of death is already dead.

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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pika... View Post
    Me and a friend DM are having rules laywers problems in our 3.5 games.

    I have read/seen this page/quote before, but now I need to find it again to read it at the start of my next game tomorrow to make it official THE Dungeon Master himself's Rule 0. Not Rule 1, Rule 0!
    Just to be pedantic, a rules lawyer is not likely to be particularly satisfied with a quote that isn't even from the same game he's playing.

    You might be better off quoting from the front of the 3.5 DMG instead.
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    ... a rules lawyer is not likely to be particularly satisfied with a quote...
    I agree. I take the perspective that all behavior is goal directed. My hypothesis is that your player gets some sort of reinforcement through his behavior (e.g., feeling smart, getting what he wants in game, feeling more powerful than the DM, the excitement of winning an argument, etc).

    The unfortunate thing is that, in any group, there will be interpersonal conflict and this can come in many forms (e.g., rule lawyering, metagaming, hostility, tension between group members, etc.). I think that a nondefensive (or nonaccusatory) upfront conversation about what each player likes and does not like about the gaming sessions might be a better course of action. If it is your house and you are DMing, then to a certain extent you have the right to say what type of game you are going to provide and what constitutes appropriate behaviors. For instance, I would not allow a player to smoke in my house; I see rule-lawyering in a similar manner.

    With that being said, I also must recognize that one cannot change people, places and things. Thus, your input on the player's behavior might not actually cause him (or her) to change. Therefore, you must decide if you can live with this person's actions (i.e., the rule lawyering) or with the group's support, stop inviting them to gaming sessions. This really needs to be a group decision rather than an individual decision. This is especially true if you are gaming at a public place (e.g., gaming store) or another group member's home.

    I wish you the best of luck in dealing with this uncomfortable situation.
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozreth View Post
    writing :p
    Heh, heh. There is something charming about it, though!
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Just to be pedantic, a rules lawyer is not likely to be particularly satisfied with a quote that isn't even from the same game he's playing.

    You might be better off quoting from the front of the 3.5 DMG instead.
    Dude, it's GYGAX. His words are always applicable to anything regarding D&D.
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Agreed Swordguy.

    Also, thank you all. It seems to have helped gotten the point across. I read it out loud slowly, then had a long talk with them. So did the next's day's DM in our group. Things have been much smoother since.


    Thank you Gygax up there!
    Last edited by Pika...; 2011-07-01 at 11:29 PM.
    I just want someone to hold me and tell me they love me. Especially when I am sad.


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    The man who is dominated by fear of death is already dead.

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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    When possible, let your groups know that Rule 0 is in effect when you begin a campaign and when new players join your table. It sets the tone and goes a long way to helping rules lawyers such as myself unclench.
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    Dude, it's GYGAX. His words are always applicable to anything regarding D&D.
    I couldn't disagree further. I'd state that by modern standards he is a terrible GM and terrible game designer. However, judging him by modern standards is about as fair as judging the honest medieval alchemists by the standards of modern chemistry.
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    I couldn't disagree further. I'd state that by modern standards he is a terrible GM and terrible game designer. However, judging him by modern standards is about as fair as judging the honest medieval alchemists by the standards of modern chemistry.
    Some of us feel his style is still the best one, or at least some of us prefer it. Old school DMing is fun even to a twenty-four year old like me.
    Last edited by Pika...; 2011-07-02 at 01:04 AM.
    I just want someone to hold me and tell me they love me. Especially when I am sad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Skami Pilno View Post
    The man who is dominated by fear of death is already dead.

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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pika... View Post
    Some of us feel his style is still the best one, or at least some of us prefer it. Old school DMing is fun even to a twenty-four year old like me.
    The point is, deifying the guy and assuming that his work is better than everyone who came after him just because he was first is pointless. Even if you like old style GMing, you can probably find games that do it better than D&D if you look hard enough, by virtue of the sheer quantity of games there are. A quote from Gygax means no more than a quote from Luke Crane, or Vincent Baker, or Stephen O'Sullivan, or Fred Hicks, or Steve Jackson, so on and so forth.
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    The point is, deifying the guy and assuming that his work is better than everyone who came after him just because he was first is pointless. Even if you like old style GMing, you can probably find games that do it better than D&D if you look hard enough, by virtue of the sheer quantity of games there are. A quote from Gygax means no more than a quote from Luke Crane, or Vincent Baker, or Stephen O'Sullivan, or Fred Hicks, or Steve Jackson, so on and so forth.
    That makes no sense in the context of what is being discussed here. If you want to know how D&D was originally intended to be played it only makes sense to look at the "summing up" of the guy who designed it. Sure, it is a bit weird to want to apply the spirit of the game as it was in 1979 to whatever is being played in 2011 under the same brand, but clearly that is what Pika is aiming for.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    That makes no sense in the context of what is being discussed here. If you want to know how D&D was originally intended to be played it only makes sense to look at the "summing up" of the guy who designed it. Sure, it is a bit weird to want to apply the spirit of the game as it was in 1979 to whatever is being played in 2011 under the same brand, but clearly that is what Pika is aiming for.
    From Pika's perspective it makes sense. From the players though, Gygax is just another guy by modern perspectives. Why should that quote really be all that relevant? Its not as if it is difficult to find another major figure who says the exact opposite.
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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Its not as if it is difficult to find another major figure who says the exact opposite.
    Citation needed.

    But in all seriousness, most gamers I know would acknowledge and respect the Word of Gygax, though not necessarily pay attention to it. But that's only because they know who Gygax was. I know a few people who would think that it's just another person saying something that the GM is using to back-up his argument.

    Still, it's a good quote, and always relevant; essentially boiling down to "The game should be played so that the enjoyment of everyone comes first."

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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    From Pika's perspective it makes sense. From the players though, Gygax is just another guy by modern perspectives. Why should that quote really be all that relevant? Its not as if it is difficult to find another major figure who says the exact opposite.
    I suspect Pika knows his group better than us, though, and to what authorities they will defer (and as it seems from the above, his strategy has succeeded). Moreover, if Gygax sums up his point of view as he wants to express it to the group and an individual in particular, then it is perfectly valid and sensible for him to make use of those words.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2011-07-02 at 11:46 AM.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

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    Default Re: Where can I find Gary Gygax's original one-page quote of Rule 0?

    Silly programmers, counting from 0 as if rules were an array to be offset. We mathematicians index from 1 (unless working with real numbers, but have different purposes). Rule 0 simply doesn't exist.

    Apart from that though, nice quote.

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