Need help with a Base Class Ability (Please PEACH)

[The Witch-King]

My current project is the Fabricator, a class I put together for the Base Class Challenge Contest. The Fabricator is a steampunk sorcerer who has learned her trade from communicating with strange alien spirits out there.

Anyway, I was looking around the forum and I found Hastur Avaddon's re-working of the Alienist Prestige Class and I saw this:

"Elder Secret (Ex): An Alienist listens to the secret voices whispering from beyond time's end and profits thereby. At 3rd, 6th, and 9th level the Alienist may select any meta-magic or aberrant feat as a bonus feat. The Alienist also has access to the following three vile feats as bonus feats if he is of evil alignment: Willing Deformity (Heroes of Horror Pg 125), Deformity: Madness (Elder Evils Pg 13), and Reflexive Psychosis (Elder Evils Pg 14)."

And I liked the idea and thought to rework it into an ability--even though my contest entry is fixed, I'm still thinking of ideas for the class--where you would get advised by an Elder Primordial spirit and he would help you shape the mystic energies you were weaving and you'd get a Metamagic feat of your choice for a few rounds. But then I thought, how often do you need to use any one particular metamagic feat as a spontaneous caster? If you can call on this guy's help once a day and get the use of that feat a few rounds every day--you don't need to actually get the feat. Worse, you can pick which one you want so it would seriously reduce your need to get metamagic feats at all. And then I thought, fluff-wise, it doesn't really seem cool to be pestering this Elder spirit or one of his friends every single day to hold your hand and help you cast spells. So I thought of this:

Dark Tutelage (Su)

The Fabricator communes with a patron Elder Primordial spirit from the Outer Blackness who assists her in the casting of a particular spell as a favor. A standard action is expended as the communication and then, for a number of rounds equal to the Fabricator's Wisdom stat modifier, the Fabricator gains the ability to cast a single Maximized spell she knows boosted by another metamagic feat of her choice, whether she has it or not, without the use of any additional spell slots over that needed to cast the base spell, which is now at +5 DC. The Fabricator takes one point of temporary Wisdom damage due to the intensity of the direct spiritual connection with such a powerful and alien entity and may not use this ability again for one lunar month.

While I want to know what you think of the ability, ultimately, I guess the question is: is there a point to any class ability that you can only use once a month?

What do you think, sirs?

[Kellus]

The Fabricator communes with a patron Elder Primordial spirit from the Outer Blackness who assists her in the casting of a particular spell as a favor. A standard action is expended as the communication and then, for a number of rounds equal to the Fabricator's Wisdom stat modifier, the Fabricator gains the ability to cast a single Maximized spell she knows boosted by another metamagic feat of her choice, whether she has it or not, without the use of any additional spell slots over that needed to cast the base spell, which is now at +5 DC. The Fabricator takes one point of temporary Wisdom damage due to the intensity of the direct spiritual connection with such a powerful and alien entity and may not use this ability again for one lunar month.

This is actually very unclear. After several readings I'm not clear if you get a single spell automatically Maximized + Another Metamagic or if you have to Maximize it and then get Another Metamagic for free. I'm also not clear where the DC comes into it, since there is not skill check required for spellcasting. I think you might mean spell levels, but that also doesn't make sense since Maximize is a +3 adjustment. I'm also not clear if you have to pay the +3 adjustment or if the +5 just represents the whole effect of Maximize + Another Metamagic.

Also unclear is the activation. You activate the ability as a standard action. Then you can use it for a number of rounds equal to your Wis modifier. I'm not sure if you get to use this SuperSpell as many times as you want during that time or if you can only use it once. Or even if you can do this SuperMetaMagic to multiple spells in that period of time or if you're locked into one particular spell.

Next up is the problem that metamagic varies wildly in power. The difference in potency between Empower Spell and Persistent Spell is intense. I would think deeply about what sorts of effects you want people to pull off with this, either cherry picking a list of appropriate effects or giving a cap on the maximum spell level adjustment the chosen metamagic feat can have.

Lastly, per month abilities sit in a weird spot where nobody really knows how often they'll be used. They're far enough apart that you probably won't be able to use them twice on the same dungeon crawl, but outside of that there's nothing stopping the party from announcing a month-long break basically whenever they feel like it aside from DM fiat. That means that the usefulness of any ability like this varies wildly depending on a multitude of factors including the splatbooks available (ie the metamagic feats available), the player using it, the willingness of the party to sit around waiting for it to recharge, and the style of the DM. Overall I would suggest against durations of longer than 1/day, since they're just too hard to adjudicate from the outside of the campaign.

The basis of the lunar month is also pretty messed up, since a lot of campaign settings have either no moon or more than one moon, and have months of vastly different lengths.

[The Witch-King]

This is actually very unclear.

The idea is that Maximize would automatically be applied to the spell and one other Metamagic of your choice. Any save required by a target of the SuperSpell would be at a +5 to represent the whole effect. You wouldn't have to pay the higher spell level cost for this single spell as a spontaneous caster because the Elder spirit was doing all the heavy lifting.

Also unclear is the activation. You activate the ability as a standard action. Then you can use it for a number of rounds equal to your Wis modifier. I'm not sure if you get to use this SuperSpell as many times as you want during that time or if you can only use it once. Or even if you can do this SuperMetaMagic to multiple spells in that period of time or if you're locked into one particular spell.

I apologize for any confusion. The idea is that the communication with the spirit requires a standard action and then, after that, you have the option to cast the SuperSpell once and once only within the time span allotted (a number of rounds equal to your Wis modifier) and if you failed to cast it within that time span, you wouldn't get to cast it at all with the bonuses given.

Next up is the problem that metamagic varies wildly in power. The difference in potency between Empower Spell and Persistent Spell is intense. I would think deeply about what sorts of effects you want people to pull off with this, either cherry picking a list of appropriate effects or giving a cap on the maximum spell level adjustment the chosen metamagic feat can have.

*nods* That's probably a good idea. Thanks!

Lastly, per month abilities sit in a weird spot where nobody really knows how often they'll be used. They're far enough apart that you probably won't be able to use them twice on the same dungeon crawl, but outside of that there's nothing stopping the party from announcing a month-long break basically whenever they feel like it aside from DM fiat. That means that the usefulness of any ability like this varies wildly depending on a multitude of factors including the splatbooks available (ie the metamagic feats available), the player using it, the willingness of the party to sit around waiting for it to recharge, and the style of the DM. Overall I would suggest against durations of longer than 1/day, since they're just too hard to adjudicate from the outside of the campaign.

The basis of the lunar month is also pretty messed up, since a lot of campaign settings have either no moon or more than one moon, and have months of vastly different lengths.

I picked a lunar month rather than a standard month because it seemed more "mystical." I hate to just drop the whole idea but I can't see the 1/day thing working for this fluff-wise. Pestering a powerful spirit on a daily basis seems counter-dramatic but as you say, there are serious problems with any duration longer than once per day.

I had the thought to adopt a mechanism akin to action points and go with so many uses per character level. Then I thought, why re-invent the wheel--we may not have used action points to date but we always could--I could just require the use of an action point to use the ability but I see that there already is a very similar ability under action points so I think for now I may just drop this notion. I'll keep thinking about it.

Thank you very much for responding.

[jiriku]

I'm also not feeling a once/month usage. In some of the games I've run and played in, there's a strong time pressure, and this ability would get used once, period -- there would never be a second chance. In others, it would see use every 3 or 4 game sessions.

I'm thinking that if you can find a way to accomplish the same goal using an existing mechanic (the action point option you mentioned), you should run with it. I always try to lean on existing mechanics as much as I possibly can in order to flatten the learning curve needed to get into the game.

[Yitzi]

I'd say that rather than balancing it via ability damage or limited uses per month, I'd say better to give it a minor-to-moderate XP cost (depending on the number of virtual levels added). The Elder spirit wants payment for his help, and that payment comes from your life essence (or whatever you call it).

Another thing to always watch out for with metamagic is the effects of being able to cast a spell normally totally out of reach.

[DracoDei]

Wikipedia-like cross indexing: Reverse Enchanting

I dunno... I was the only one who objected to 1/week HERE, and that was because I thought that the logistical requirements were restriction enough. I was probably mistaken about that. Nobody objects to the 1/week nature of the Paladin's Cure Disease (some don't like it for OTHER reasons but...).

This is an NPC base class I made, and it seemed the only objection to the 1-4/YEAR abilities, and nobody even mentioned the 1/month ability.

In short 1/month for such a powerful ability sounds reasonable to me. As for super-fast paced campaigns, I think an ACF would be good for the OP to provide.

[The Witch-King]

I'm also not feeling a once/month usage. In some of the games I've run and played in, there's a strong time pressure, and this ability would get used once, period -- there would never be a second chance. In others, it would see use every 3 or 4 game sessions.

I'm thinking that if you can find a way to accomplish the same goal using an existing mechanic (the action point option you mentioned), you should run with it. I always try to lean on existing mechanics as much as I possibly can in order to flatten the learning curve needed to get into the game.

I decided to go with the action point option.

Dark Tutelage, take two:

Dark Tutelage (Su)

The fabricator communes with a patron Elder Primordial spirit from the Outer Blackness who assists her in the casting of a particular spell as a favor. The fabricator uses a standard action to initiate communication with the Elder spirit. This also requires the expenditure of two action points. The fabricator suffers a single point of temporary wisdom damage due to the intensity of the direct spiritual connection with such a powerful and alien entity.

After that, the fabricator gains the ability to cast a single spell modified by metamagic feats. The spell is treated as if either the metamagic feat Empowered Spell or Intensified Spell were applied to it as well as one of the following metamagic feats: Ectoplasmic Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Piercing Spell, Selective Spell or Threnodic Spell. The spell in question does not require the use of a higher level spell slot. If the option to cast this specially modified spell is not used within a number of rounds equal to the fabricator's Wisdom stat modifier, then the option is lost and the action points and the point of temporary Wisdom damage were for nothing.

I ran across a reference to the Void Disciple from the Rokugan Campaign setting and I'll be reworking the fabricator class to include Void point use as it fits the background of the class so well.

In the meantime, there was this posted to the Base Class Challenge VI - Voting Thread:

...where does it all come from? Those are some awesome items but I feel without the build it yourself element (that could be "borrowed" from an artificer) it's too much like "Oh I leveled up, Hey look a Bazooka!" granted fluff could mean it's been tinkering with these forever and then finally getting them working.

When I first created the class, I decided against some sort of XP or GP cost to manufacture the implements and items of the class because, well, they were class features and you don't see the Ranger being charged for his class features or the Druid for hers, right? But I can see where leaving out construction costs and times is a lost chance for verisimilitude in a class that builds the things it uses so I've changed my mind. I'll be adding in GP costs for building the fabricator equipment. In the meantime, I'm working on adding this new class feature:

Cannibalize (ex)

The fabricator can dismantle certain items for use in her work of constructing fabricator implements, fabricator items and magic items. Any of the following may be dismantled and cannibalized by the fabricator for parts and components: devices and equipment with gears, other moving parts and/or steam engines, crossbows, black powder weapons, potions, powders and other substances created through alchemy and magic items.

By sacrificing such an item, a 1st through 10th level fabricator is able to scavenge 25% of the item's market cost in GP as well as 25% of the XP that went into the construction of the item, but only for the purposes of constructing new fabricator implements, fabricator items and/or magic items. From 11th level on, the fabricator can scavenge such items for 50% of their market cost in GP and 50% of the XP that went into their construction.

Constructs destroyed in combat can likewise by scavenged by the fabricator for parts and components but at an additional 50% penalty (a 1st through 10th level fabricator would scavenge 12.5% of the GP and XP of a defeated construct, whereas a 11th level or higher fabricator would be able to scavenge 25%.)

[DracoDei]

You realize that they are much more efficient with the GP scavenging than the XP scavenging, right? I actually approve of this. As a Mechanical Engineer I know that earning the real world equivalent of XPs by taking something new apart is very much a possibility (the option of putting it back together again afterwards... well that requires a Craft and/or Knowledge check or two), but getting a bunch of screws and motors and such that you could later find a use for is much more reliable.

Also, you have a MAJOR loop-hole since you listed crossbows (and a bunch of other non-XP requiring stuff, but that doesn't make the point any more true). But when one double checks the crafting rules... the raw materials required for crafting are one THIRD of the market price. Hey presto, infinite gold. I would tweak the rules or outright cut the GP yield from items that work with the 1/3rd thing to 1/4 market price.

[The Witch-King]

You realize that they are much more efficient with the GP scavenging than the XP scavenging, right?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

Also, you have a MAJOR loop-hole since you listed crossbows (and a bunch of other non-XP requiring stuff, but that doesn't make the point any more true). But when one double checks the crafting rules... the raw materials required for crafting are one THIRD of the market price. Hey presto, infinite gold. I would tweak the rules or outright cut the GP yield from items that work with the 1/3rd thing to 1/4 market price.

It was my intention that you could only use the cannibalized parts for building new things but still--I see your point. Thanks!

Cannibalize, take two:

Cannibalize (ex)

The fabricator can dismantle certain items for use in her work of constructing fabricator implements, fabricator items and magic items. Any of the following may be dismantled and cannibalized by the fabricator for parts and components: devices and equipment with gears, other moving parts and/or steam engines, crossbows, black powder weapons, potions, powders and other substances created through alchemy and magic items.

By sacrificing such an item, a 1st through 10th level fabricator is able to scavenge 25% of the item's market cost in GP as well as 25% of the XP that went into the construction of the item. Neither the GP nor the XP gathered can be used for any purpose other than constructing new fabricator implements, fabricator items and/or magic items. From 11th level on, the fabricator can scavenge such items for 25% of the GP and 50% of the XP that went into their construction.

Constructs destroyed in combat can likewise be scavenged by the fabricator for parts and components but at an additional 50% penalty (a 1st through 10th level fabricator would scavenge 12.5% of the GP and XP of a defeated construct, whereas a 11th level or higher fabricator would be able to scavenge 12.5% of the GP and 25% of the XP.)

[jiriku]

I ran across a reference to the Void Disciple from the Rokugan Campaign setting and I'll be reworking the fabricator class to include Void point use as it fits the background of the class so well.

I heartily approve of anything that involves the Void point mechanic - I think that's a promising avenue. Feel free to sift through the Void Disciple class in my sig and steal anything of use that you might find therein.

[DracoDei]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

I am saying (updated for your changes) that 25% of the market price of a magic item equals 50% of the cost of materials needed to construct it.
On the other hand, 25% of the XPs needed to construct a magic item is... 25% of the XPs needed to construct it. (tautological I know, but sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest to see).

This means that initially the class is twice as efficient at scavenging XPs as it is at scavenging GPs, and from level 11 onward it is instead four times as efficient with XPs.

Incidentally, you might want to take an look at THIS (going to be editing the same link into my first post on this thread for wiki-pedia-like cross-indexing) since it is vaguely relevant, and you might want to explicitly state that the two options combine in a favorable fashion (or even build the option into the class if you REALLY REALLY like it).

[The Witch-King]

I heartily approve of anything that involves the Void point mechanic - I think that's a promising avenue. Feel free to sift through the Void Disciple class in my sig and steal anything of use that you might find therein.

Thanks!

I am saying (updated for your changes) that 25% of the market price of a magic item equals 50% of the cost of materials needed to construct it.
On the other hand, 25% of the XPs needed to construct a magic item is... 25% of the XPs needed to construct it. (tautological I know, but sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest to see).

This means that initially the class is twice as efficient at scavenging XPs as it is at scavenging GPs, and from level 11 onward it is instead four times as efficient with XPs.

Thanks for the link and for all your help.

And in retrospect, this is how I should have just done this in the first place...

Cannibalize, take three:

Cannibalize (ex)

The fabricator can dismantle certain items for use in her work of constructing fabricator implements, fabricator items and magic items. Any of the following may be dismantled and cannibalized by the fabricator for parts and components: devices and equipment with gears, other moving parts and/or steam engines, crossbows, black powder weapons, potions, powders and other substances created through alchemy and magic items.

By sacrificing such an item, a fabricator is able to scavenge 50% of the item's raw materials cost in GP as well as 50% of the XP that went into the construction of the item. Neither the GP nor the XP gathered can be used for any purpose other than constructing new fabricator implements, fabricator items and/or magic items.

Constructs destroyed in combat can likewise be scavenged by the fabricator for parts and components but at an additional 50% penalty (a fabricator would scavenge 25% of the raw materials and XP of a defeated construct.)

And with that and some very helpful comments I got about the class last night from some veteran players and DMs, I'll start revamping the class from the ground up and I'll start a new PEACH thread for it when I'm ready.

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to respond and help me out. I really appreciate it!