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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Avalon2099's Avatar

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    Default AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Okay, I have a game where there's this item that has the ability to give off an anti magic field for it's wearer, I don't know the exact stats on the item, but I know it was once worn by a barbarian king to fight against magic users. Now from little tid bits other players and the DM have dropped is the item can select who it affects and doesn't effect based on the wearers commands. Dumb powerful I know.

    Now I've been thinking of ways to defeat this stupid creation of an item. Now I've come up with Shapechanging into a Prismatic Golem, would that work? Also, are the Orb line of spells affected by AMF? I am looking for contingent ways to beat/get around it, but failing that get away from it before o get caught in it.

    The problem is it's only restriction is that the Wearer be CN (stupid restriction in only that it's not one) this just means the players who like to do anything they want at a moments notice are going after it, the real problem is my character is part of a team that supposed to go "get" this armor for a specific member of the party who is a known betrayer and caused problems in the past. I'm playing a "wiz/incantrix/archmage 18" I'm NG and a clone or rather dead clone of one of the BBNG's in the game.

    So my ultimate goal is the defeating of this item should the worst happen, failing that GTFOing out of there if I can't. The DM doesn't operate fully by the rules and makes alot of stuff up on whim because it amuses him. So I need book references for anything that will/might work.

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avalon2099 View Post
    Also, are the Orb line of spells affected by AMF?
    I believe (and I may be wrong) that the Orb spells can't be cast inside the AMF, but if you cast it while outside the AMF, it will still hit the target, because they're Conjuration spells, not Evocation.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnestic View Post
    I believe (and I may be wrong) that the Orb spells can't be cast inside the AMF, but if you cast it while outside the AMF, it will still hit the target, because they're Conjuration spells, not Evocation.
    More specifically because they are Conjuration (Creation) spells, rather than anything else.

    Though it sounds like your DM may well overrule that, as well as the hat trick (two of the easiest ways to deal with AMFs).

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    You're gonna have to basically be Kirk and dealing with the kobayashi maru.

    So, get enough blackmail material or other leverage on the problem player or otherwise make a deal that is contingent on his good behavior to get something he wants so that he doesn't **** all over the game.

    Because it sounds like that's the situation the DM is trying to engineer here. So you might want to address why even the DM hates the campaign.

    Failing that, once the party looks like they're going to acquire the item... be the only person with pepto bismal.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-07-04 at 03:31 PM.
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionoftheVoid View Post
    More specifically because they are Conjuration (Creation) spells, rather than anything else.

    Though it sounds like your DM may well overrule that, as well as the hat trick (two of the easiest ways to deal with AMFs).
    No Thats the thing he loves it when we surprise him, we just have to provide proof that what we are doing is legit and printed in a book.

    Also what is the hat trick?
    Last edited by Avalon2099; 2011-07-04 at 03:34 PM.

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionoftheVoid View Post
    More specifically because they are Conjuration (Creation) spells, rather than anything else.
    One last component to that - they must be Duration: Instantaneous. An AMF will shut down anything else, even Permanent, because it depends on magic to exist.

    A clear example is Major Creation - nothing you make with that spell can be sustained in an AMF.
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    You're gonna have to basically be Kirk and dealing with the kobayashi maru.

    So, get enough blackmail material or other leverage on the problem player or otherwise make a deal that is contingent on his good behavior to get something he wants so that he doesn't **** all over the game.

    Because it sounds like that's the situation the DM is trying to engineer here. So you might want to address why even the DM hates the campaign.

    Failing that, once the party looks like they're going to acquire the item... be the only person with pepto bismal.
    Oh trust me I feel you, I've been Kirk in this game since day one, I've managed to get out and win practically every scenario with amazing results, he was shocked each time I did what I did. Personally, the idea behind his game is that this lame recurring BBEG who's a "planeswalker" (or a rank 6 deity) that can go anywhere, and anything. His schemes are trite and boring (end all of everything) can unleash Elder Evils because he feels like it? Murders all the gods in an instant (except himself) because why not? I less feel like I'm playing D&D and more playing out a creative writing story in his head that's not all cohesive an missing key plot points.

    It's come to the point where I'm the last bastion of the group "playing by and abusing the rules to win" I dont really care to win as the prize is to save his created multiverse... Yay? Or become gods or something? Not really my characters style.

    But yeah.

    I guess it's less about winning and more about using in game rules in ways that allow me to get desired results against seemingly impossible odds.

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    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    ...What are you actually getting out of playing with these people?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avalon2099 View Post

    Also what is the hat trick?
    Have made or Fabricate a cone/dome of something that will block line of effect, sufficiently large to cover you completely. Cast Shrink Item on it so it becomes small, clothlike, and fits on your head. Wear it as a hat. When you are exposed to an AMF effect, the Shrink Item is suppressed, causing the dome to spring back to full size and removing you from the AMF, which gives you a chance to buff, teleport out to a non AMF'd area, or otherwise reset the fight to a less annoying situation.

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Go Pun Pun. That should teach him.

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Have made or Fabricate a cone/dome of something that will block line of effect, sufficiently large to cover you completely. Cast Shrink Item on it so it becomes small, clothlike, and fits on your head. Wear it as a hat. When you are exposed to an AMF effect, the Shrink Item is suppressed, causing the dome to spring back to full size and removing you from the AMF, which gives you a chance to buff, teleport out to a non AMF'd area, or otherwise reset the fight to a less annoying situation.
    Adamantine is a solid choice because it's the most durable non-magical material in the game and thus provides the optimal protection when subjected to an AMF. When subjected to an AMF, you Teleport away from inside (or do some such) and deal with the issue in the usual way (called creatures [Gate is frighteningly efficient], summons with SR, instantaneous Conjurations, in general the whole Conjuration-school is your weapon of choice).

    You should also consider having some access to Invoke Magic [LoM]; basically, it's a level 9 Evocation that allows casting a level 4 or lower spell in an AMF. E.g. Orb Of Doom or Dimension Door.

    Complete Arcane has rules for Crafted Contingencies. Between Anticipate Teleportation [Spell Compendium], Contingency and crafted contingencies, you should be able to cover every means of getting an AMF next to you with some Line-of-Effect blocking or moving contingency (Resilient Sphere around yourself, Teleport, or some such).

    Shapechange and simply using long range attacks of course works. People can rarely fly with AMF around them, after all, so if you just have magical flight (which you should 24/7) you can poke the AMF-fools with impunity.


    You should always have more than one solution to every problem you can imagine (and you should be able to imagine a lot). It's all there in your abilities. Divinations are always useful too (figure out when someone will try to impose an AMF on you: prepare accordingly).

    EDIT: Oh. And obviously, for dealing with bothersome items and being capable of destroying AMFs, there's always Disjunction. Though to do it with any sort of consistency, you need some caster level buffing. Peruse this thread for the how-to. Note that Beads of Karma can be activated with Use Magic Device.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2011-07-04 at 04:17 PM.
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorK View Post
    Go Pun Pun. That should teach him.
    Eh, just chain gate Titans. n+1 Titans as a standard action. Candles of Invocation are dirt cheap.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Get the guy into a castle basement. Cast Earthquake from outside.
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Orbs by RAW aren't poofed away by antimagic, but asuming you are giving it instructions by MAGIC, once it enters the field it should either automatically explode or just roll aimlessly in the last direction you sent it. More or less same for any conjured thing that needs your directions.
    Summoned extraplanar creatures poof back home. Only extraplanars, mind you.

    Psionics.

    Unless you are using the psionics=magic rule, easiest way to piss off antimagic users is psionics.

    Buy psionic teleport wands. Spam until he fails save. Deposit him in a cage with the rust monster variant that eats magic.(forgot what the critter was called, something about dweomer,maybe?)
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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by marcielle View Post
    Summoned extraplanar creatures poof back home. Only extraplanars, mind you.
    They get an SR check. Also, I kinda always assumed Orbs just follow Newton's 2nd once you've launched 'em. I mean, yeah, they don't all make sense physics-wise but they work out that way. It seems exceedingly illogical that their behavior would change in an AMF, at any rate, when they already have the direction and the speed. Psionic - Magic Transparency rules are the default so I wouldn't rely on that.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2011-07-05 at 05:24 AM.
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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Iron Heart Surge (Tome of Battle).

    To get it, Embrace and Shun the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I).

    Ends the AMF immediately, no ifs, no buts.

    Unless your DM bans such use of it.
    Last edited by magic9mushroom; 2011-07-05 at 05:40 AM.
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    On the other hand, if your DM doesn't ban every part of that plan then you know you can get away with anything.

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by marcielle View Post
    Psionics.

    Unless you are using the psionics=magic rule, easiest way to piss off antimagic users is psionics.

    Buy psionic teleport wands. Spam until he fails save. Deposit him in a cage with the rust monster variant that eats magic.(forgot what the critter was called, something about dweomer,maybe?)
    The big problem with this plan - if you're NOT using transparency rules, that means you can't activate a dorje either, not without ranks in UPD.

    In fact, even with default transparency you would need UPD, because transparency doesn't extend to skills. Only Pathfinder lets you treat UPD as UMD and vice-versa.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Have made or Fabricate a cone/dome of something that will block line of effect, sufficiently large to cover you completely. Cast Shrink Item on it so it becomes small, clothlike, and fits on your head. Wear it as a hat. When you are exposed to an AMF effect, the Shrink Item is suppressed, causing the dome to spring back to full size and removing you from the AMF, which gives you a chance to buff, teleport out to a non AMF'd area, or otherwise reset the fight to a less annoying situation.
    This makes me wonder, what happens when an AMF is released inside a bag of holding?

    Got an archer you can trust? Cast shrink item on a bundle of really big arrows for him then let him full attack into the field.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avalon2099 View Post
    No Thats the thing he loves it when we surprise him, we just have to provide proof that what we are doing is legit and printed in a book.
    In that case you may be interested to know that the PHBII Abrupt Jaunt Wizard ACF (teleport 10ft as an immediate action) is referred to as an Extraordinary ability, and would therefore be usable inside an antimagic field (it is also referred to as a spell-like ability, so your DM may rule it doesn't work in an AMF. Don't ask me how it manages to be both).

    Edit: For the poster above's trick, you can use boulders and hurl them if you don't have a suitable archer. Alternatively, put Crossbow proficiency to good use and use it on the bolts.
    Last edited by ScionoftheVoid; 2011-07-05 at 10:56 AM.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Item? Break it. If it's not Armor, you can probably sunder or disarm whatever it is off him (snatching a cloak or goggles off opponents are listed examples in the PHB). Get your Orb spells or minions to do so, then go to town on his betraying ***. Also, what's the problem-player's stats? If he doesn't have access to flight, you can drop shrunk items on him till he dies.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Cheater of Mystara.

    Failing that, MDJ the AMF. 1% chance per caster level of making the AMF go poof.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionoftheVoid View Post
    In that case you may be interested to know that the PHBII Abrupt Jaunt Wizard ACF (teleport 10ft as an immediate action) is referred to as an Extraordinary ability, and would therefore be usable inside an antimagic field (it is also referred to as a spell-like ability, so your DM may rule it doesn't work in an AMF. Don't ask me how it manages to be both).
    it was errated to be a supernatural ability

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    So we did the session and to my surprise the armor was not held by the enemy as they had no one of CN to wear it. But they had set up a camp and guarded the armor with armored Mind Flayers, a Worm that Walks, and a dracolich riding big two handed wielding ubercharger. Now I had anticipated going in and somehow the armor becoming activated, I had not anticipated actually trying to enter an active anti magicfield.

    The field is a mile in diameter on the artifact, so I and the rest of the magic users stayed behind and let the physical and skill based charters go in, which resulted in a Halfling Rogue, Human Monk and a humanoid (fox) cleric to enter, why he did so was beyond me, his explanation was that he had a spear and knew how to use it.

    So they get to the crater where the armor is and see all the BEGs and the 2 supposed BBEGs. So they decide to dig a pit with a shield in order to lure a scout out, kill him and take his armor, only problem is the mooks are all Mindflayers, so eventually the Paladin gets into a verbal argument with the cleric and the mooks hear them.

    The group ambushes the one scout that comes to investigate and manages to dispatch him in the pit, unfortunately they are forced to scatter as more come over, the Halfling dashes past the guards who were unsure what it was and sounded the alarm, the Halfling made it to the crater and jumped down. Seeing the armor, the cleric sensing that someone was going after armor other than him when he saw the Halfling dash to the crater also ran through the tents.

    Eventually the cleric and Halfling were both in the pit struggling to pull the armor out of the ground, the BBEG showed up and corralled them into the pit, and began to weep, but the tears flowed like a really powerful decanter if endless water that was not obstructed by the armor. So the Halfling and cleric were soon wading in water, every time they tried to get out the bBEG named Despair, would coral them back in, when the crater was full. The dracolich placed it's colossal claw/foot over the entry.

    The paladin and monk had booked it out leaving those 2 to die, which they did, horribly.

    I had mentioned before everyone entered that perhaps going into an active antimagic field isn't the best course of action and perhaps we should infact go after the Sword of Gabaer, which supposedly acts as a counterbalance to the armor, but no. The clerics greed and the rest of the groups stupidity cost them.

    Also destroying the armor is out and so is Disjuctioning it as I attempted it and was told by the DM if I go through with it the armor explodes and a good chunk of the continent with it.

    So my hands are tied...

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Hang on. The gmcreates a super powerful macguffin that could (and did) neuter the party. I accept that's a pretty impossible challenge.

    However, he also gives you information on another macguffin that counters stupid amf and you don't go after it? Party fail. But with your party, I understand why.

    Get the sword and keep it for yourself for when you go back to get the armour.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Wow. Obvious attempt to railroad you to get the macguffin is obvious...

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Okay, I don't know what level your party is, but that kind of opposition? That's a pretty big "DO NOT GO THERE!!!!!" sign if I've ever seen one. ^

    It's like riddles said: the evil guys have a super-powerful artifact. There's another, super-powerful counter-artifact around. So, that's the plot, right? And when your party didn't follow it, two of them died. Horribly. Happens.

    Now, it's not the kind of plot I like to play, but to each his own. The way I see it: you can either choose to go after the other artifact and follow the plot, or you can say, "Screw this!" and go do your own thing. In that case, however, be prepared that the bad guys start their Doomsday Machine or whatever.

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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Anyone not affected by the AMF can be targeted by and affected by magical effects as though the AMF wasn't even there. According to the Rules Compendium:
    Spells don’t function in an antimagic area, but an antimagic area doesn’t block line of effect. If a spell’s point of origin is inside an antimagic area, that spell is entirely suppressed. When a spell’s point of origin is located outside an antimagic area, but part of that spell’s area overlaps the antimagic area, that spell’s effect is suppressed where the two areas overlap. Time elapsed within an antimagic area still counts against a spell’s duration.

    If an instantaneous spell is entirely suppressed, that spell is effectively canceled. (It’s suppressed, and its duration instantaneously expires.) An instantaneous area spell is only entirely suppressed and effectively canceled if its point of origin is within the antimagic area. Otherwise it works like any other area spell that has a point of origin outside the antimagic area—only where its area overlaps the antimagic area is its effect is suppressed (and effectively canceled).
    If a creature is unaffected by the AMF then the AMF's area is not overlapping that creature's body or items. Therefore, a spell cast from outside the AMF directed at a creature unaffected by the AMF will still work as though the AMF wasn't even there. The Mastery of Shaping and Extraordinary Spell Aim AMF tricks don't actually work post-Rules Compendium, unless you get close enough to an enemy caster to get him stuck inside the AMF's effect. Even then, giant metal dome + shrink item + wear it on your head will protect you from an AMF that gets close enough to hit you. Shrink Item will be suppressed and the metal dome will expand to its full size and cover you, blocking the AMF's line of effect to you, and you can teleport safely away from the AMF-wielding hooligan. This opponent's greatest weapon is your own ignorance of the rules, an educated player should be able to defeat this without much difficulty. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    You're forgetting it's a DM fiat AMF, so it still works no matter what.

    Really I think that's a lazy way DMs use to get around annoying spellcasters. The harder but more plausible way is to find spells and other special tactics that counter their spells. Abjuration spells that block X, the many mundane ways to handle invisiblity/blindness/darkness/etc., magic items or special abilities to provide utility such as flight, strength checks, flaming weapons and/or damage to smash walls and other conjured obstacles, or push through them with ease.

    For the OP: Just try the spells that still work in an AMF. The orbs are good but perhaps your weakest option. There's wall of force, wall of stone, wall of iron, prismatic wall and gate.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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  30. - Top - End - #30
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: AMF woes: Kicking it to the curb or GTFOing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avalon2099 View Post
    *snip*
    Option 1: Gate in a ****ton of creatures. Pumping your caster level to 26 with Karma Beads, Magic Tattoo, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Spell Power & Ring of Arcane Power (for example) and gating in a Hecatoncheires and having it go postal on that little pocket could work, for example (as long as your CL is half its HD, you can control it).

    That's not really a creature anyone would want to face in an AMF. Or gating in a couple of Solars (having them gate in more while at it), for a less brute force solution.

    Option 2: Generate some sort of moving, line-of-effect blocking shell (e.g. carving out a Beholder's body and moving inside it works; they're naturally buoyant). Then just using spells as necessary in the inside. Heh.

    Option 3: Contact some deities. Get more options.

    Option 4: Get the MacGuffin. TP it to you or whatever. How boring.
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