Help Me Win Using The Dragon Shaman

[Gorfang113]

Right, so me and my friend got into an argument over which is better, Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept. To settle it we are having a duel between the two classes. Im on the side of Dragon Shaman. We should end being ECL 20 and with all class levels being in our chosen class. We have 250,000 gp to spend, and starting stats of 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10. The build should not be made to go for the other class specificly, but we can rule out what it doesnt need to fight based on the opposite class. So help me win this duel and prove who is the better dragon follower.
Edit: btw, I have untill 8pm tomarrow.

[*.*.*.*]

DFA IS better, your friend is right.

[mootoall]

Yup, Dragonfire Adept wins. Its invocations beat your auras, and its breath weapon is better, especially since it can debuff.

[Lord Loss]

Unless you optimize like a madman and your friend doesn't the Dragon Shaman is going to get crushed. First of all it's a very bad class and combat isn't it's strong side. It's like pitting the Bard against the Fighter. They're both useful party members, but the Bard isn't built for one on one combat.

[Amnestic]

Your friend is the winner, especially if he happens to go Evil. Fivefold Breath? Hold me closer, oh dark mistress!

[mootoall]

Unless you optimize like a madman and your friend doesn't the Dragon Shaman is going to get crushed. First of all it's a very bad class and combat isn't it's strong side. It's like pitting the Bard against the Fighter. They're both useful party members, but the Bard isn't built for one on one combat.

Bard wins that fight, actually. Yes, spells are that good. Also, they're better at melee combat with things like Snowflake Wardance. So ... bad example, but you're right.

[MeeposFire]

The DFA is better though a duel is not really its strong suit. DFAs best advantage is strong battlefield control in mass quantities. Plus the DFA can also get your aura for a feat and his breathweapon his hands down better.

[mootoall]

Not to mention the DFA actually got (wait for it) splat support! The MIC has at least one item just for them.

[tyckspoon]

Mate, I hate to say it, but yer boned. You might pull something out by careful and clever application of wealth. Otherwise? By weight of class features, the DFA has you beat everywhere. The biggest advantage you have is that your breath weapon qualifies for metabreath feats, so you can make it be a Heightened Maximized Clinging breath that deals full damage on first hit with a DC 40-some save and then does repeating damage for the next 10 rounds.. the problem is you won't get enough damage to one-shot him, and when his turn comes around he can just Energy Immunity to your breath type. And then you're screwed.

[mootoall]

Mate, I hate to say it, but yer boned. You might pull something out by careful and clever application of wealth. Otherwise? By weight of class features, the DFA has you beat everywhere. The biggest advantage you have is that your breath weapon qualifies for metabreath feats, so you can make it be a Heightened Maximized Clinging breath that deals full damage on first hit with a DC 40-some save and then does repeating damage for the next 10 rounds.. the problem is you won't get enough damage to one-shot him, and when his turn comes around he can just Energy Immunity to your breath type. And then you're screwed.

Gah, beat me to it, I just remembered DS breath weapon got metabreath feat access. Still, you've also covered the response to it. You didn't, however, mention how the DFA can get its breath weapon cheesed to get metabreath feats as well. And have other class features to use while it's recharging.

[Psyren]

DFA IS better, your friend is right.

I love when a thread can be wrapped up on the second post

[MeeposFire]

Not to mention the DFA actually got (wait for it) splat support! The MIC has at least one item just for them.

What item is that by the way?

[Flickerdart]

Incidentally, the wealth you're using for the duel is about a third of what you should actually have by that level. Any reason why?

[mootoall]

What item is that by the way?

Some sort of Carapace of Something. It's the analogue to the Chasubel of Fell Power for the Warlock. Except there's no Greater version. Which makes me angry.

[Amnestic]

What item is that by the way?

There's the Dragon Spirit Cincture, a cheap belt item which adds 1d6 to your breath weapon damage, and gives you a +1 on the DC if you wield a weapon with the same energy type. The obvious answer, therefore, is to grab a/some daggers with Least Energy Assault Weapon Crystals inside, which work just fine. All in all, tiny investment for decent boon to your primary weapon.

[Gorfang113]

Well this is optimistic... I will just take the metabreath feats and hope for him to screw up or for me to get lucky. The metabreath feats are all in dragonomicon, right?

[MeeposFire]

There's the Dragon Spirit Cincture, a cheap belt item which adds 1d6 to your breath weapon damage, and gives you a +1 on the DC if you wield a weapon with the same energy type. The obvious answer, therefore, is to grab a/some daggers with Least Energy Assault Weapon Crystals inside, which work just fine. All in all, tiny investment for decent boon to your primary weapon.

Wait doesn't that work with any breath weapon though?

[mootoall]

There's the Dragon Spirit Cincture, a cheap belt item which adds 1d6 to your breath weapon damage, and gives you a +1 on the DC if you wield a weapon with the same energy type. The obvious answer, therefore, is to grab a/some daggers with Least Energy Assault Weapon Crystals inside, which work just fine. All in all, tiny investment for decent boon to your primary weapon.

Ah, yes, that one. Actually, the most efficient way to do it is +1 arrows with least energy assault weapon crystals. Cheaper, and you're not actually fighting with it, so weilding it as a improvised melee weapon doesn't matter.

[tyckspoon]

Ah, yes, that one. Actually, the most efficient way to do it is +1 arrows with least energy assault weapon crystals. Cheaper, and you're not actually fighting with it, so weilding it as a improvised melee weapon doesn't matter.

A dragoncraft dagger/sword/whatever also works if you prefer something that doesn't make your DM want to smack you for abusing the ammo crafting rules- dragoncraft weapons do 1 point of damage of whatever energy type the source dragon breathed.

Edit: And a Least crystal only requires Masterwork quality, so if you're not planning to actually hit anything with 'em those arrows don't even need the enhancement. If you're gonna suggest something for the sake of cheesy efficiency, be efficient!

[mootoall]

A dragoncraft dagger/sword/whatever also works if you prefer something that doesn't make your DM want to smack you for abusing the ammo crafting rules- dragoncraft weapons do 1 point of damage of whatever energy type the source dragon breathed.

Edit: And a Least crystal only requires Masterwork quality, so if you're not planning to actually hit anything with 'em those arrows don't even need the enhancement. If you're gonna suggest something for the sake of cheesy efficiency, be efficient!

Heh, didn't know that, thought they needed the enhancement bonus. I'll read up better next time

[Amnestic]

Wait doesn't that work with any breath weapon though?

I believe so, yes. Less useful for most others though, since they use their Breath Weapon less, so the investment is used less.

Well this is optimistic... I will just take the metabreath feats and hope for him to screw up or for me to get lucky. The metabreath feats are all in dragonomicon, right?

Of course you have to worry about him taking breath weapon feats - easily accomplished by either going Dragonborn or taking the Power Surge feat (Dragon...314?). It's not as if the DFA really needs to spend his feats on anything else once he has Entangling Exhalation.

[Prime32]

Dragon shamans are more useful for supporting armies of low-level soldiers than fighting one-on-one. And their auras can be replicated with feats anyway.

[Kefkafreak]

Why would a duel show which class is better? If a character has an aura that adds +50 damage to every party member but him, he's doing more damage than the party's Fighter, but he couldn't win against him 1 on 1.

[FMArthur]

Yeah, but Dragon Shaman auras are bad regardless. The best you can get is capped fast healing for out-of-combat healing that everyone should have prepared to do anyway.

[slaydemons]

Not to mention the DFA actually got (wait for it) splat support! The MIC has at least one item just for them.

sorry what what?

Spoiler

Show

DRAGON SPIRIT
AMULET
Price (Item Level): 2,000 gp (6th)
Body Slot: Throat
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: Swift (command)
Weight: —
This necklace features a large, clear crystal set
in silver, and the silhouette of a dragon has
been etched onto it.
Prized by dragon shamans (PH2 11), basically 3 times a day double aura size for a round

you mean just like dragon shaman?

I just realized was talking about dragon disciple bah I am an idiot

[mootoall]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Dragon Shaman was meant to be an NPC "Marshall" class. Then again, I'm also convinced the Paladin, or anything else with "X per day" abilities where X is less than 3. Edit: I send a "What?" right back to you, sir. Since when is DFA not a 20 level class in Dragon Magic? Though I'll concede I wasn't aware of the DS item. Although a DFA can still get all the good DS auras by feats, and benefit from the item too ...

[slaydemons]

I send a "What?" right back to you, sir. Since when is DFA not a 20 level class in Dragon Magic? Though I'll concede I wasn't aware of the DS item. Although a DFA can still get all the good DS auras by feats, and benefit from the item too ...

made a mistake ,dragon disciple, lot of breathing classes sorry my bad

edit 1: note to self check to see if breath weapons stack and don't confuse dragonfire adept with dragon disciple again you look like an idiot

[golem1972]

Dfa's are best at debuffing, and then blasting. They should also have high mobility.
I suggest that you make yourself immune to the debuffs and immune or highly resistant to the blasting. A warforged or undead will be resistant to most of the debuffs. There's a ring that gives you the half dragon template (white), ask your dm if you can get different flavors (black and blue). Mantle of icy soul and the fire version are expensive but give you fire and cold subtypes. Ring of freedom of movement or several castings of heary of water will protect you from entangle. Mind blank, armor with proof against transmutation, blindfold of true dark, and decent saves should make you immune to most of what he can do to you.

He's got a lot of defenses against your breath weapon built in, so I would mostly ignore it. Pick up entangling exhalation if you think you must (just to show you can without having to jump through hoops). Buff dex, str, then con and wis. Get a good bow and endless quiver. Spend some feats and magic items to make yourself decent at archery. True strike plus manyshot isn't a bad combo. A +5 splitting dragonbane bow should do the trick. Get hanks bow from the wizards website if you can.

I know all of this is more than 250k, I am going with normal wbl.

[tyckspoon]

Dfa's are best at debuffing, and then blasting. They should also have high mobility.
I suggest that you make yourself immune to the debuffs and immune or highly resistant to the blasting. A warforged or undead will be resistant to most of the debuffs. There's a ring that gives you the half dragon template (white), ask your dm if you can get different flavors (black and blue). Mantle of icy soul and the fire version are expensive but give you fire and cold subtypes. Ring of freedom of movement or several castings of heary of water will protect you from entangle. Mind blank, armor with proof against transmutation, blindfold of true dark, and decent saves should make you immune to most of what he can do to you.

and then he just blitzes you with alternate uses of Thunder Breath (sonic!) and the special Bahamut breath (untyped) anyway.

[mootoall]

Yeah, WBL can do pretty well against the DFA ... if you want to be immune to all energy damage types. At which point you still have to deal with Invocations. Good luck with those.