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    Default [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    The Stubborn Fighter
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|+1|+2|+1|+2|Disbelieve , Bonus Feat

    2nd|+2|+3|+1|+3|Shun the Foolish, Bonus feat

    3rd|+3|+3|+2|+3|

    4th|+4|+4|+2|+4|Bonus feat

    5th|+5|+4|+3|+4|Disbelieve

    6th|+6/+1|+5|+3|+5|Bonus feat

    7th|+7/+2|+5|+3|+5|

    8th|+8/+3|+6|+4|+6|Bonus feat

    9th|+9/+4|+6|+4|+6|

    10th|+10/+5|+7|+5|+7|Disbelieve , Bonus feat, Convincing

    11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+5|+7|

    12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+6|+8|Bonus feat

    13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+6|+8|

    14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+6|+9|Bonus feat

    15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+7|+9|Disbelieve

    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+7|+10|Bonus feat

    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+8|+10|

    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+8|+11|Bonus feat

    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+8|+11|

    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+9|+12|Disbelieve , Bonus feat, Smite the Foolish

    [/table]
    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: 1d10

    Class Skills:
    Class Skills are... Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

    Class Features:
    All of the following are class features of the fighter.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
    However, they cannot wield magic items.

    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

    These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

    Disbelieve:
    The Stubborn fighter so strongly believes that Magic does not exist, Or perhaps even comes from a world of no magic, That the fighter is unaffected by it.
    • 1st: Ignore 0-2nd level spells, or spell-like abilities.
    • 5th: Ignore 0-3rd level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +1 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.
    • 10th: Ignore 0-5th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +2 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.
    • 15th: Ignore 0-7th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +3 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.
    • 20th: Ignore 0-9th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +4 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.

    The fighter is immune to listed spell levels, and ignores they're effects even if it normally does not allow spell resistance/immunity. A Transformed wizard would not carry benefits when attacking the Stubborn fighter, but would still retain any defense himself when the Fighter attacks back. A Summoned monster is tied by magic, and can't effect the Fighter. The fighter sees these things as nothing but hoaxes, and trickery attempting to control the minds of the simpletons.
    A Magic sword is treated as a Normal sword if the enhancement bonus is not more then the level the Fighter would ignore, in which case its subtracted.

    In addition, she gets a Spell Resistance equal to her class levels + Constitution modifier +5

    The Fighter cannot remove or take down her Disbelief, As such she cannot benefit from healing, or similar positive effects.
    To compensate, the Fighter heals faster then normal. Healing character level +con modifier an hour. And con mod worth of ability damage per day.


    Shun the Foolish:
    The Stubborn Fighter gains a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to the highest spell level or effective spell level the target can cast.
    Example: A Stubborn fighter against a foe that can cast Level 5 spells, gets a +5 to attack and damage rolls.


    Convincing:
    The Stubborn Fighter can cause the subject to doubt the existence of they're own spells. They loose 1 spell per point they fail a will save DC= 10+Fighter's charisma modifier+Subjects highest spell level.
    To use this is a free action. Once a victim saves, they are immune for 24 hours or until they forget the event, which ever is sooner. a Fighter can use this at will.
    Example: Before attacking, the Stubborn Fighter comments that the Sorcerers finger-twinkling is hardly going to help as the Sorcerers fireball does nothing to even hint that the Fighter took any effect what so ever. The Sorcerer questions the reality of what may be happening, and his mind falls to chaos. (Failed will save) and looses four spells from his highest level to lowest.

    Smite the Foolish:
    The Stubborn fighter now gains the above bonuses for Shun to they're Attack bonus. But instead of gaining the damage bonus, they instead deal an extra 1d4 damage for each spell the subject can cast, or every spell-like ability they can use. (If only one spell-like ability, instead deal 1d6 per times they can use it)
    The fighter can use this once per day +1 per 2 Cha mod.
    Example: A High level Wizard meets a Stubborn Fighter, The Stubborn fighter Smites the Wizard. Who takes Fighters attack as normal, but also 36d4 extra damage from her Smite attack. Because the Wizard has 4 spell slots, from nine spell levels. 9x4=36.
    Last edited by Cipherthe3vil; 2011-07-11 at 02:12 PM.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Some of this needs rewording or just expanding a bit, an example or two may not go amiss, but as a whole, this is funky. It reminds me more than a bit of the forsaker, whereas it doesn't use strange pseudo-anti-magical abilities, it does strike straight back at the wizard in a way that's VERY hard to fight against with magic. Doesn't help against buffed opponents, doesn't help against level 9 spells, but it does everything else....nice.

    Smite the foolish, as worded, could be more painful to a wizard, the bigger his spellbook is, unless of course it's spells/day from all levels, in which case sorcerers would actually have more pain. Not sure if that's exactly what you're after, but either way, it does one helluva lot of damage to a high end caster, and for this, I am highly amused.

    You may wish to look at the AC problem a little, you cover the weapon troubles with disbelieve, but if you're stuck with nothing but mundane armour then levels 12+ are gonna get progressively deadlier with each set of encounters.

    Still disappointed in the 2+int skills and the almost non-existant list, but those are fighter problems, not yours I guess!
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Disbelieve:
    The Stubborn fighter so strongly believes that Magic does not exist, Or perhaps even comes from a world of no magic, That the fighter is unaffected by it.
    1st: Ignore 0-1st level spells, or spell-like abilities. All weapons have an effective +1 bonus in your possession.
    5th: Ignore 0-2nd level spells, or spell-like abilities. All weapons have an effective +2 bonus in your possession.
    10th: Ignore 0-4th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All weapons have an effective +3 bonus in your possession.
    15th: Ignore 0-6th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All weapons have an effective +4 bonus in your possession.
    20th: Ignore 0-8th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All weapons have an effective +5 bonus in your possession.
    In addition, she gets a Spell Resistance equal to 15 + her class levels.
    This.... Is a bit much, if you ask me. SR 15+lvl is a little too high, but simply ignoring spells altogether is a bit too good.
    It can also be a bit chaotic. I mean: Does this character ignore terrain alteration spells? Does this character ignore summoned creatures? Manny undead were created through a spell; does this character ignore all undead except for ghosts and vampires?
    And if not, where do you draw the line? A fireball effectively conjures a great ball of fire. Even if you ignore the spell, does the fire (and the explosion) still effect you? And if so, did you effectively ignore the spell?

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    @ Dryad, yes it is a bit much, and there's teething problems to sort out, but as I see this, the troubles created by not having ANYTHING magical on you EVER have to be weighed up with some pretty damned amazing abilities to give your character any chance at all of surviving the game at later levels. The spell levels you gain immunity to aren't quite as fast as the spell levels a fullcaster gets access to at the same levels, so you're always vulnerable (excepting the possibly over-strung SR) to their top level spells.

    Things which have been made with magic (as per your examples) may well need addressing though, they could be problematic.
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Drow, Magic creatures, have SR 11+ character level. I don't think its problematic at all for a character who completely disbelieves magic and unlike the Drow, cannot use magic themselves, to be able to have a 15+ Class level spell resistance.

    Otherwise I think I finished, and most/all of whats already been said is fix'd, at least a bit.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    I think SR 999999999 + Level would be appropriate.

    Some ideas:
    • Special options for using mundane equipment other than weapons or armor.
    • An intimidation-based ability that activates when you disbelieve a spell.
    • Mage Slayer line hardwired into class abilities.
    • Limited ability to dispel or generate AMFs.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merk View Post
    I think SR 999999999 + Level would be appropriate.

    Some ideas:
    • Special options for using mundane equipment other than weapons or armor.
    • ?
    • An intimidation-based ability that activates when you disbelieve a spell.
    Hm... I might.
  8. Mage Slayer line hardwired into class abilities.
as in the Feats? I'm not familiar with them. Something about not letting casters cast defensively?
  • Limited ability to dispel or generate AMFs.
  • To magical.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    as in the Feats? I'm not familiar with them. Something about not letting casters cast defensively?
    The base feat in the chain does roughly that. Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment, later in the chain, let you overcome magic-based AC and other protections like Blur

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merk View Post
    The base feat in the chain does roughly that. Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment, later in the chain, let you overcome magic-based AC and other protections like Blur
    They're already unaffected by things like Blur, or Displacement. Things like Mage Armor are gone as well, but things creating a real change in them such as Polymorph, Iron Body, Bulls Strength ect are still in effect :/

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    I'd like to point out a few problems:
    • How does this class deal with flying enemies?
    • How does this class get healing?
    • What's to stop a mage from using instantaneous effects (by the time he gets to it wall of iron is just a wall made out of iron)?
    • What bonuses are you talking about in reference to the undead?
    • How does Smite the Foolish work with an at-will ability?
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Just a bit of suggested rewording: Convincing is a free action that is usable at will, and you have infinite free actions per round.

    See the problem? I suggest you make it usable at-will, as a free action, but only once per round.
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Over 9000 SR!

    Fixed for you.
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Cute picture :3

    Interesting class. Hmm, constructive.. Why they got enhancement bonus if they are unbelieving in magic. I got the meta reason but not in-world reason why disbelieving magic makes your equipment stronger.

    I echo the opinions above on how this class can't get some nifty utilities granted by magic items. Perhaps grant them some self-healing/healing boost ability at least?
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    I would seriously think about referencing the old Forsaker PrC (Masters of the Wild, pg.57) for a little insight, it uses DR and fast healing as well as SR along a progression.

    Interesting class. Hmm, constructive.. Why they got enhancement bonus if they are unbelieving in magic. I got the meta reason but not in-world reason why disbelieving magic makes your equipment stronger.
    I'd say it's merely his unshakeable belief in the mundane, and his own mastery of that belief.
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Just a bit of suggested rewording: Convincing is a free action that is usable at will, and you have infinite free actions per round.

    See the problem? I suggest you make it usable at-will, as a free action, but only once per round.
    As stated, Free actions are governed by the DM and common sense of the player. Its obviously, thanks to the example, a Spoken action. One or two are really going to be the limit.

    Fast Healing/DR. Thats all fancy magic-people stuff.
    The only reason they get immunities and SR is due to the pure normal-ness of them.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Fast Healing/DR. Thats all fancy magic-people stuff.
    If that's the case, I'm afraid this class will be near unplayable or at the very least a major drag on the rest of the party. While everyone else can simply heal up after a fight in minutes if not seconds this character is looking at a minimum of days for natural healing to be effective. It might actually be worse than the wizards 15 minute workday since it's going to happen almost every encounter and doesn't come with the benefit of being able to hide in magical demi-planes while recovering (not that strategy is necessarily the best thing for a game).
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon Rose View Post
    If that's the case, I'm afraid this class will be near unplayable or at the very least a major drag on the rest of the party. While everyone else can simply heal up after a fight in minutes if not seconds this character is looking at a minimum of days for natural healing to be effective. It might actually be worse than the wizards 15 minute workday since it's going to happen almost every encounter and doesn't come with the benefit of being able to hide in magical demi-planes while recovering (not that strategy is necessarily the best thing for a game).
    accept for the fact that they can simply walk into mordor yes, I'm sure they're totally useless /sarcasm.
    Last edited by Cipherthe3vil; 2011-07-08 at 04:17 PM.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Yes, they can walk into mordor, assuming they can get past the physical gate. The problem is they will take damage doing that, because the orkish (or whatever they are) hordes will have mundane weapons and some will hit. That means they're liable to be low on health and in enemy territory. Most PCs would just heal at that point, but they have no mechanic for healing that doesn't take days meaning they can't advance or accomplish much in the way of goals.

    As for how useful they are in other situations... There's nothing saying that a wizard has to attack them or even fight them. Any mage could just fly up out of their reach and target the rest of the party.
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Odd...

    I actually made a class kind of like this awhile ago, albeit with mid BAB.

    You may want to see the class here as I think that the neutralization class feature I used covers pretty much everything that you want (other than not being able to percieve magic) and can fit into the odd levels of this class (to stop dead levels).

    Also, how does the stubborn fighter fail to recognize magic is there even when it is high level enough to overcome their defenses. Is a level 20 stubborn fighter going to get hit by a Prismatic Sphere (which is completely possible as disbelieve doesn't apply against 9th level spells) and just scream "Palor's Grace! Why am I on fire? Why can't I pass this line? Somebody help me. I'm scared."
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2011-07-08 at 05:33 PM.
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Odd...

    I actually made a class kind of like this awhile ago, albeit with mid BAB.

    You may want to see the class here as I think that the neutralization class feature I used covers pretty much everything that you want (other than not being able to percieve magic) and can fit into the odd levels of this class (to stop dead levels).

    Also, how does the stubborn fighter fail to recognize magic is there even when it is high level enough to overcome their defenses. Is a level 20 stubborn fighter going to get hit by a Prismatic Sphere (which is completely possible as disbelieve doesn't apply against 9th level spells) and just scream "Palor's Grace! Why am I on fire? Why can't I pass this line? Somebody help me. I'm scared."
    Yeah, what's he gonna say when those fake fireballs (meteor swarm) actually do something to him? Or when the wizard he's facing inexplicably turns invisible and gets better at combat (greater invisibility+Tenser's transformation)?

    Also, the only real use of this is to ignore illusions and blasty spells. Evocation is the weakest school anyway, and any wizard worth his intelligence score is going to switch to summons and buffs when the guy shakes off all his spells. How's the fighter gonna take that?

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    He's going to ignore the summons and, presumably, the illusions. The better question is what happens when the wizard turns to stone shape and buries him alive or just starts dropping rocks with wall of stone.
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon Rose View Post
    He's going to ignore the summons and, presumably, the illusions. The better question is what happens when the wizard turns to stone shape and buries him alive[Magic] or just starts dropping rocks with wall of stone[Magic].

    It needs to be really indirect. As in... throw something real using magic. Or buff yourself to stick him with a sword. (And with 10/5 vs 20/15/10/5 I'm voting for the Fighter)

    When he Does perceive magic, he tries to rationalize it. "Did he throw an explosive at me?" ect.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    It needs to be really indirect. As in... throw something real using magic. Or buff yourself to stick him with a sword. (And with 10/5 vs 20/15/10/5 I'm voting for the Fighter)

    When he Does perceive magic, he tries to rationalize it. "Did he throw an explosive at me?" ect.
    So the orb spells and Melf's acid arrow work against him? I also don't get why summoned creatures wouldn't work.

    Also, I want to see him try to rationalize invisibility and teleport, when he sees the guy disappear or appear out of nowhere.

    Oh, and wizard gets full BAB with a 6th level spell.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    So the orb spells and Melf's acid arrow work against him? I also don't get why summoned creatures wouldn't work.

    Also, I want to see him try to rationalize invisibility and teleport, when he sees the guy disappear or appear out of nowhere.

    Oh, and wizard gets full BAB with a 6th level spell.
    he. ignores. magic. Why would an orb SPELL or Melf's acid arrow even show in his eyes?

    Ghost, hallucination, wizard was never really there, hes going blind, he missed something and the wizard... is behind him! ect.

    I think I should mention Metamagic doesn't raise the effective spell level when comparing to Disbelieve.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Divine power makes it 20/15/10/5 vs 20/15/10/5. And stone shape (or something similar) is completely indirect. You don't effect him at all, you effect some stone. Either removing it from under his feet or cutting an unfortunately large section of the ceiling out and letting gravity drop it on him. In fact a rock to mud on a ceiling might be extra fatal to him since it's only in it's mud form thanks to magic.
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    It's true that Drow receive a 11+HD SR, but Drow have an exceptionally high SR to begin with. An equal lvl caster would only have a 50% chance (not including spell penetration) of succeeding on a Drow. Monks gain 11+lvl SR (If I'm not mistaken), and that is also very powerful.
    Most creatures that gain SR only gain 5+HD, or, indeed, 11+HD for exceptionally glib ones.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    he. ignores. magic. Why would an orb SPELL or Melf's acid arrow even show in his eyes?

    Ghost, hallucination, wizard was never really there, hes going blind, he missed something and the wizard... is behind him! ect.

    I think I should mention Metamagic doesn't raise the effective spell level when comparing to Disbelieve.
    The orbs magically conjure a blob of nonmagical energy and hurl it at somebody. How is that any different from using Telekinesis, which you explicitly call out as working?

    You can't make a game mechanical class without game mechanical language. Your concepts of direct and indirect have no useful definitions. You need to rephrase the class features in terms of actual game terms.
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    The orbs magically conjure a blob of nonmagical energy and hurl it at somebody. How is that any different from using Telekinesis, which you explicitly call out as working?
    This. Orbs, Melf's acid arrow, and summoned creatures were conjured by magic, they're not actually magic themselves (unless you consider the fighter to be immune to denizens of other planes), that's why they're in the conjuration school.

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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Also, alot of magic doesn't actually use magic. They just use it to summon stuff. Fireball? You're using magic to create fire and force which give it shape, direction, and such. There are actually relatively few spells which actually use magic for the effect, not just creating the effect.
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    Default Re: [Base class 3.5]Magic? Rubbish, no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Lord View Post
    Also, alot of magic doesn't actually use magic. They just use it to summon stuff. Fireball? You're using magic to create fire and force which give it shape, direction, and such. There are actually relatively few spells which actually use magic for the effect, not just creating the effect.
    Fireball is magic. It allows SR.

    I assume that anything from evocation is made of magic, not conjured out of nowhere. Conjuring is for conjuration.

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