Results 181 to 210 of 232
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2011-07-31, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
And sliding in under the judge deadline is... me!
Bloodstained Hurricane - 15.5 -
Spoiler
Originality - 2.75 - A 2 level dip into ranger costs a bit (-0.25), but there's otherwise nothing unexpected here. The race is a natural choice for a lots-of-attacks build.
Power - 4.5 - That... is one metric butt-ton of attacks, and it doesn't really have a problem against damage reduction once skirmish bonuses come online. (+1.5)
Eloquence - 3.5 - Kudos for not relying on a LA buyoff (+0.25) or assuming that a non-psi version of the race was available(+0.25). Speed of Thought comes so late that it's basically an afterthought, so I'm not giving a bonus for that.
Use of Special Ingredient - 4.75 - Both required skills of the PrC are maximized by level 20, so standard bonus there (+0.5). Multiweapon fighting is just brutal synergy (+0.5), as is use of skirmish (+0.25). And when Thousand Cuts finally comes online you're doubling... 11 attacks. Eek. (+0.5)
Avander - 10.25 -
Spoiler
Originality - 3.25 - A ranged Dervish, interesting (+0.5). It dips Ranger though (-0.25).
Power - 2.0 - While a valiant attempt at versatility, the archer abilities just don't stack with the Dervish ones. In essence you have created a Dervish which does not improve it's abilities and instead can also shoot things. (-1)
Eloquence - 2.5 - Your skill points are all goofed up, and I can't see where you got Tumble as a class skill under fighter (-0.5).
Use of Special Ingredient - 2.5 - You've spent a lot of effort on being an archer too, but Dervish Dance and Thousand cuts both specify melee attacks only. So while you're not changing up weapons to switch between the two, you're also not really using the archery component either. (-0.5) While you spent skill points on your required class skills, neither is maximized, so no bonus or penalties there.
Weylin - 14.25 -
Spoiler
Originality - 3.5 - Enough Binder levels for Paimon is a nice touch, and an odd way to approach Dervish (+0.5).
Power - 3.75 - Paimon plus Dervish is a capable combo (+0.25), and chaining Robiliar's Gambit to the Dervish dance potentially adds quite a few attacks at your full BAB (+0.5).
Eloquence - 3.5 - Four levels each of two base classes is tidy (+0.25), and you avoid a cross class penalty without jumping through odd hoops (+0.25). Shadowdancer seems to be added as a "hey, why not, I'm already qualified", and it doesn't synergize well with the other classes. (Knight of the Sacred Seal would actually have fit better given your backstory and classes.)
Use of Special Ingredient - 3.5 - Love is given to the prerequisite skills, but neither is maximized, so no bonus or penalty. I'd give higher marks here if the Swordsage maneuvers added to the Dervish Dance, but instead they seem to be alternatives to it, which you did not need. Robilar's Gambit is a nice add, as previously noted (+0.25), and Paimon fits here too (+0.25), so I split the bonuses between here and Eloquence.
Sanavakri - 15.5 -
Spoiler
Originality - 3.75 - I thought Kalashtar was here merely for the Psychic Warrior levels, but I was proven wrong later in the build (+0.5). It's still a 2 level dip, though (-0.25).
Power - 4.0 - I wasn't impressed until I read up on Dancing With Shadows. Every OTHER round, you're royally walloping your foes, and biding your time between with massive AC bonuses and martial maneuvers. This works better than I thought it would (+1).
Eloquence - 3.75 - A simple build is elegance in it's own right, with just 2 classes aside from the PrC (+0.25). you've also got excellent feat synergy going on (adding Stormguard Warrior to the Dancing with Shadows feat, for example) (+0.5)
Use of Special Ingredient - 4.0 - You keep the prerequisite skills maxxed out (+0.5), and your choice of feats accentuates the Dervish style, meaning the class is integral to your fighting style rather than just a bonus (+0.5).
Death of Xen'drik - 12.0 -
Spoiler
Originality - 2.5 - Thri-Kreen we've seen before in Dervish, so nothing unique about that. Ditto with Ranger and Warblade. The dip into fighter hurts, though (-0.5).
Power - 3.75 - You've got quite a few attacks (+0.5), but nothing besides a wand trick to pump them up. Mind you it's a nice trick (+0.25) but easily short circuited.
Eloquence - 2.25 - You're relying on a single magic item trick to make your attacks very effective (-0.5) rather than by using feats or class abilities. The fighter level is clearly for the feat and no other reason, and even warblade comes online as an afterthought. (I'd have respected 3 more levels of fighter more.) (-0.25)
Use of Special Ingredient - 3.5 - Tumble skill is maximized (+0.25) but Perform (Dance) is taken at the minimum and then never raised again (-0.25). Multiweapon is a wonderful bump for dervish dance and thousand cuts, though. (+0.5)
Devlin Bladehands - 12.25 -
Spoiler
Originality - 3.25 - Verstile unarmed as a way to get an unarmed Dervish? Surprising (+1). Pity you dipped swordsage (-0.5) and Monk (-0.25) to do it.
Power - 3.75 - Warshaper and Swashbuckler are nice boosts to power (+0.5), as is Shadow Blade (+0.25).
Eloquence - 2.75 - I'm docking you for the two unused feats (-0.5), as the point of Iron Chef is for you to tell us how YOU would build it. I docked you in Originality already for the two class dips, as they just make the build feel cluttered. But I'm giving some of that BACK for Warshaper levels, which fit SO nicely with an unarmed changeling (+0.5). And Carmendine Monk is a natural for blending monk with either swashbuckler or wizard (+0.25), BUT... with that feat you're using both Eberron and Forgotten Realms (-0.5).
Use of Special Ingredient - 2.5 - The prereq skills are maximized (+0.5), but I don't see much of a reason for being a Dervish. You qualified for it, you got extra attacks from it, but that's about it. None of your feats accentuate your Dervish abilities (-1). Perhaps if you had used those unused feats on this, the result would be different.
Elrond - 13.75 -
Spoiler
Originality - 3.0 - It's been too long since I've seen Revenant Blade used as an ingredient, more people should build with it (+0.5). And it took me a while to figure out where Snow Elves were from, so that's a bonus, but I would have preferred a better source list instead! (+0.25) But you took a 1 level dip into Paladin, so that's a negative (-0.5). And as long as we're in the "Originality" category, I'm gonna make my frowny face here, since you're taking famous names from Tolkien mythology and tacking them together. (-0.25).
Power - 4.5 - A 28 point buy build? Okay, not docking you for it, but I think you forgot that Snow Elf gives you 2 points of Dex. Anyway, Ancestral Guidance 3 (or 4) times per day is a nice boost to power, and once you get Legendary Force online at 10th level (Which I note you forgot to list), you're a true killing machine with Power Attack. (+1) Dervish Dance synergizes very well with this (+0.25). And keeping Hide and Move Silently maxed for the Revanant Blade bonuses to those is an added touch (+0.25).
Eloquence - 2.0 - Let's come back to that 1 level dip in Paladin. WHY? What did it give you? 4 ranks in Perform? Did you know you could have stayed in Ranger, gotten twice as many skill points, and bought the same 4 ranks as a cross class skill as well as picking up another Favored Enemy bonus? The resulting Inspire Courage ability is basically worthless and you do nothing to improve it. (-0.5) And I'm going to ding you for it again as you just mixed Eberron and Forgotten Realms in the same build with that one Paladin level. (-0.25) PLUS you seem to have forgotten about your INT bonus when purchasing skills for all your Ranger and Revenant Blade levels! (-0.25)
Use of Special Ingredient - 4.25 - Though you went a little overboard and purchased more ranks than you were allowed, the Dervish required skills are indeed both maxed out (+0.5). And you have the power as noted above to boost Dervish Dance to frightening levels. (+0.5) Travel Devotion is a nice additive, but it comes so late and has no turn attempts to allow you to use it more often, I can't give it a large bonus (+0.25).
This is easily one of the more lethal builds, and had you avoided that Paladin level and cleaned it up, you could easily have cleared 16 points. The Paladin dip was un-necessary, unsupported, and it truly cost you. Pity.
Salvatore - 15.5 -
Spoiler
Originality - 3.5 - Well Factotum is a surprise (+0.25) and Master of Masks even more so (+0.5). The fighter dip is the only downside (-0.25)
Power - 4.25 - Iaijutsu Focus and several tricks to make sure you can use it a lot (+1). Add in bonus damage from one or more maneuvers and feats (+0.25), and you have a really pointy combatant.
Eloquence - 3.5 - This too has a single trick to make it's extra damage work, but it's powered by feats and has several ways of working (+0.5). I'd score it higher in eloquence if it had used less classes.
Use of Special Ingredient - 4.25 - Iaijutsu plus Thousand Cuts... awesome (+0.5). Both class prereq skills maximized, check (+0.5). Other feats and skills generally add (+0.25).
Kaycha - 13.75 -
Spoiler
Originality - 3.5 - Again, Binder is somewhat a rare choice (+0.5). Azurin is interesting, but incarnum binds aren't really a rarity around here. =)
Power - 3.5 - What I'm not seeing is how Binder or Paragnostic adds to the effect of being a Dervish. You pick up either Whirlwind attack or some sneak attack dice here and there (+0.25) and some attention is given to knowledge devotion (+0.25), but you tack on no real power.
Eloquence - 3.5 - One class, 1 PrC, 1 maxxed special ingredient PrC. Nice (+0.5). Binder doesn't quite provide versatility to improve the score any further, though.
Use of Special Ingredient - 3.25 - Prerequisite skills get good attention, but are not maxxed out, so no bonus or penalty. I see some mild synergy with movement powers (+0.25), but not a lot else that makes Dervish perform at above base level.
Last edited by gbprime; 2011-07-31 at 06:13 PM.
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Ding, You've Got Trophies!Spoiler
Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens
Oh, and DFTBA.
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2011-07-31, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
You missed Kaycha. If she's not done in the next hour, I can't count those scores.
Quotebox
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2011-07-31, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
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Ding, You've Got Trophies!Spoiler
Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens
Oh, and DFTBA.
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2011-07-31, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Possibly the final tally?
Tallies After Three Judges
{table=head]ENTRY|PLACE|TOTAL|AVERAGE
Sanavakri|GOLD|45.5|3.79
The Bloodstained Hurricane|SILVER|44.75|3.73
Kaycha|BRONZE|43.5|3.63
Salvatore Serafines|Fourth|41.25|3.44
Devlin Bladehands|Fifth|38.75|3.23
Elrond Aldarion|Sixth|36.5|3.04
Weylin|Seventh|35.25|2.94
The Death of Xen'drik|Eighth|30.5|2.54
Avander Shellivathan|Ninth|29.25|2.44[/table]Quotebox
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2011-07-31, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
And the final standings are in.
In 1st place, Urpriest's Sanavakri!
In 2nd place, DeAnno's Bloodstained Hurricane!
In 3rd place, Amphetryon's Kaycha!
In 4th place, Z3ro's Salvatore Serafines!
In 5th place, term1nally s1ck's Devlin Bladehands!
In 6th place, yugi24862's Elrond Aldarion!
In 7th place, kestrel404's Weylin!
In 8th place, The Gilded Duke's Death of Xen'drik!
In 9th place, BillyBobJoe's Avander Shellivathan!
Congratulations to our 3 winners! I haven't been in touch with Jumilk, so I'll see if I can commission some trophies in the Arts & Crafts subforum. As for the honorable mention, no one has voted one way or the other, so I'll award it to Devlin Bladehands.
I'll post the two builds that didn't quite make it on time in a little bit.Quotebox
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2011-07-31, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Ouch. Completely missed the 1/day thing on the Tentacle Whip's Poison. Would have to completely redo the build to make it work. The Snake Arm grafts could have worked with a full BAB character and Improved Rapid Strike.
Went through so many variations on the build... at one point was considering turning into a Gibbering Mouther with Aberration Wild Shape and a Wild Shape Ranger, but couldn't figure out anyway to get the six mouths to do any significant damage.Spoiler
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2011-07-31, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
These two didn't quite slip by the deadline, but I'll post them as a special treat. Essence_of_War brings us Solarius.
Originally Posted by Essence_of_WarQuotebox
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2011-07-31, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Wewt, about time I won one of these! Looking forward to a trophy if they happen.
I was actually really surprised how well the build clicked into place. Most of its tricks came online within a short span of levels (for example, Ironheart Aura is only a level before Stormguard Warrior). Thanks goes to the absent Shinken's Guide to Defensive Fighting, which pointed out the wonders of Dancing with Shadows. I'm also really surprised at that missing feat, seeing as the build involved a lot of feat planning to get everything in, I thought I would notice a free slot. I also feel like I was the only build that had a reason to take 10 on Perform(dance), albeit a weak reason.Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
Trophy!
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2011-07-31, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Akal Saris submitted Taern the Rover.
Originally Posted by Akal SarisQuotebox
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2011-07-31, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Nice job all around. Dervish is hard to do wrong, so the trick to judging was to find what people had done RIGHT and highlight it.
I was surprised to see that no one thought to bust the action economy with it by hooking up Three Mountains or Boomerang Daze or somesuch to all those attacks against multiple opponents. But the number of consistantly strong extra-damage methods was impressive..
Ding, You've Got Trophies!Spoiler
Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens
Oh, and DFTBA.
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2011-07-31, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Hey look, another 3rd place snag for me. . . .
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2011-07-31, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
And with amazing speed, we have back our illustrious trophysmith Strategos!
Quotebox
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2011-07-31, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
So, Prinny (and anyone else), how do you feel the efforts at streamlining went?
Also, any plans for the next round?In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2011-07-31, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Personally, I'm feeling like it should be clear that dipping is harshly punished in the elegance category.
I asked, and in almost a week I get one response saying it's fine if the classes make sense.
With that in mind, I go for the leanest, most obvious progression *possible*, heading through Unarmed training into 'sword' training into the sublime way.
I proceed to get -0.5 from most every judge for every class that doesn't have 3+ levels.
I know now for next time, but it's hardly fair on new contestants that the criteria for judging are so heavily leaning towards one side of an oft-debated topic with no warning.Last edited by term1nally s1ck; 2011-07-31 at 09:17 PM.
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2011-07-31, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Lots of Revenant Blades this round, though there weren't any Tempests, which seems like a natural follow up, which may be to avoid originality hits.
Also, I'd love to see where Akal's fluff ends. Cliffhanger backstory!
Next Contest: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu!Last edited by Cieyrin; 2011-07-31 at 09:21 PM.
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2011-07-31, 09:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Tempest is an obvious followup...but it really isn't good. Barely boosts your power by anything.
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2011-07-31, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Maybe some sort of caster class next time? War Weaver?
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2011-07-31, 09:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
I think the timeframe speaks for itself. This competition had 7 days for building, and 14 days for judging (21 days). Let's compare that to the last four rounds:
Ghostwalker: 14 days to build, 40 days to judge (54 days).
Incandescent Champion: 14 days to build, 19 days to judge (33 days).
Dread Pirate: 9 days to build, 19 days to judge (28 days).
Unseelie Dark Hunter: 7 days to build, 29 days to judge (36 days).
The Ghostwalker competition is unfair to criticize due to extenuating circumstances, but even beyond that, we've finished a full week ahead of the next fastest. The other two were beaten by an even larger margin. I'm sure Ponies has an even more complete timetable sitting somewhere in that spreadsheet of his, so he should be able to give us a bit more info.
As for the next round, I will put the next competition up on Wednesday. Feel free to flood me with PrC suggestions in the meantime.Quotebox
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2011-07-31, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- I wish I knew...
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2011-07-31, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Would there be much interest in a Pathfinder Iron Chef? Perhaps as another side contest?
Spoiler
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2011-08-01, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Runite
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2011-08-01, 12:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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2011-08-01, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Reading back through a couple of competitions, it seems to be constant that judges mark you down for 1-2 level dips.
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2011-08-01, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Heh. Both of the 2 builds that didn't make it were Revenant Blade blade builds using the exact build given in the Revenant Blade handbook. If I had time to tidy the build up and remember to use 32 points instead of 28, i might have got 5th. Still, did quite well for a rushed entry.
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2011-08-01, 03:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2005
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
I actually kind of agree. This being my first time judging I sort of went with what seemed standard and docked points for dips and cross-setting material. In my games, I really don't actually give a crap about all that, since I tend to leave the fluff aside when it comes to character generation. I think my next time judging will likely reflect that approach a bit more.
Anyway, nice builds all around and congratulations to all contestants! I realize some of my scores were a bit rough compared to the other judges and I hope I didn't offend. If I did, I apologize and please speak up so next time I'll know to tone it down a bit.
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2011-08-01, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
I think the streamlining made everything move faster, but I think we may want to extend the creation timeline to 14 days.
I was trying with one of my builds using the old Lightning Maces w/ Keen Aptitude Kukris trick, but there were just too many feats that needed to go around that it wouldn't have been very elegant to smash them all in.
Honestly, the criteria for judging change every round depending on the judges. Recently, yes, we've been a bit skewed against dips. I think that's because a lot of competitors have found that multiple dips are the "easy way" to snag things (feats, front-loaded abilities, etc). While Devlin's dips made total sense, I fear that he's an innocent victim of a system that has grown weary of Lion Spiritual Totem Barbarians, 1 level of Rogue with Craven, and other dips that are only done for power. I hope that you'll try competing again.
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2011-08-01, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Oh, I fully intend to. I just find it intriguing that in a competition designed to maximise your use of the PrC, people care so much about using your chosen base class more, rather than getting those abilities that work best with the PrC from where they can.
In my mind, a build that goes through even 5-10 other classes, grabbing abilities that are all in perfect synergy with the 10 levels of the PrC is the best way to make a character based about that PrC. If I want to do well in the competition, I'll have to change my approach, but hey.
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2011-08-01, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
My take is that a 1 level dip is a half point hit, while a 2 level dip is a quarter point hit, and I rarely penalize for a Prestige class dip since there's effort involved to get into it. So the trick, if you're going to dip a class, is to get more out of it in Power and Use than you lose in another category. Everything is a tradeoff.
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Ding, You've Got Trophies!Spoiler
Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens
Oh, and DFTBA.
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2011-08-01, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
See, that's exactly what I don't understand. Why is a 'dip' an automatically bad thing.
In my build, for instance, I could have gotten another 2-3 levels of swordsage and monk, had I forgone Warshaper.
I didn't, simply because they don't synergise with dervish at all, and the entire challenge is to optimise a Dervish build. I made that decision *before* going warshaper.
All the abilities you get from swordsage that synergise with Dervish are gained at L1. All the abilities you get from monk that synergise with dervish are gained by L2, unless you go *deep* into it and get the extra attack on flurry. Which is hardly worth that many levels.
Why is using the parts of a class that match the secret ingredient 'inelegant'. If you're cooking, you don't use a large amount of everything. You use large amounts of the main ingredient/ingredients, and small amounts of other stuff, because too much other stuff would overpower the taste of the main ingredient. A small amount of salt or spice adds to the flavor of the dish. Using too much ruins it.
By all means, penalise dips of over-dipped classes, such as lion-totem, rogue with craven, etc. But please, do so in Originality, not elegance. Penalise dipping classes which could have been taken further *and would have added to the build* by doing so, but I'd say that should be done in Use of SI. Grabbing precisely the abilities you need to showcase the secret ingredient is a *more* elegant way to build that character, not less.
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2011-08-01, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2005
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXII
Not necessarily. Normally, taking 10 different base classes would (as things are today) kill you in the Elegance department (there's definitely something to be said about getting all the right things in all the right places, there's also an undeniable beauty about a build that achieves a whole lot with just one class and PrC). However, if done correctly you'd make up for it in Power at least, if not UoSI and Originality.
The problem I had with your build, as I can't speak for the others, is that you weren't all that impressive power-wise. I actually had a spreadsheet which mapped out the number of attacks, bonuses and damage of contestants and simulated damage outputs vs. various ACs (it's the Excel nerd in me). In the end, even with Dex and Int to damage, yours just wasn't all that impressive compared to some of the meatgrinders that had been entered in the competition. It's beautiful the way things mesh together - it just doesn't curbstomp the others.
FYI, the dips only accouted for -0.5 in my score (actually, -0.25 and another -0.25 due to XP penalties which I find stupid but happen to be in the rules nonetheless). The rest was setting-specific material (-0.25), and lack of sources (-0.5). I usually started at 3 and added/removed as I saw fit, but just that once I started at 5 and took points off because I liked the whole thing so much. I do realize now that I didn't mention sources in my criteria and I acknowledge that mistake. I thought is was actually in the contest rules/guidelines, but it turns out I'm wrong on this so I'll add them in in the future.