Fixing Tier 1 is pointless

[Gnaeus]

I was hoping someone would bring up Ars Magica. Changeling: the Dreaming also uses verb-noun magic, if anyone wants another example.

Yes, it does, although I think it is much less thematically appropriate to D&D than Ars Magica.

As proposed in this thread though every wizard would get either one set of verbs or one set of nouns though, so not quite the same thing. (And that's good. The whole point of verb-noun magic is that your options grow quadratically. If we're trying to nerf D&D wizards that's the last thing we want.)

Well, your options do grow quadratically, but only until they reach the limits of the available magic system. Currently, wizards have access to ALL wizard spells. Limiting them to Most wizard spells would still be a nerf. If you gave (for example) one rank in verb and 2 in noun per level, and then prohibited them from casting spells unless they had both appropriate noun and verb equal to the spell's level, it would be a huge nerf. There are lots of ways that system could be set up (although they would be better discussed in homebrew.)

[Tyndmyr]

Well in the end the DM always has complete control, and if they simply want to say Spell X doesn't exist in their world then thats up to them.
And if you are going to homebrew a complete rework of spell lists and class mechanics anyway you are essentially doing the same thing.

You can...but it's not trivial. There's a sufficiently large list of spells that fixing tier 1 in this way is a bit crazy. Hell, even for core, it's no small task.

And it doesn't seem to be too uncommon of a house rule that someone has to have a place to learn the spells from, even the "free" ones per level, so you can learn them without the spellcraft checks, the time and the gold costs, but you still have to have had some method of learning said spell.

That stops only the wizard. And then, only until they flip the page to the research mechanics, which allow them to automatically research any existing spell without prior character knowledge of it.

[stainboy]

Banning spells also isn't a very satisfying solution. A lot of the big offenders have strong roots in fantasy literature. Every time a DM has to ban Polymorph and Planar Binding they essentially say "wizards in my world don't change shape or bind demons."

[Doug Lampert]

Am I missing the whole entire Tier boat here? This seems to be the solution for when things get out of hand, and with my group, things very rarely get out of hand.

I didn't even know a tier system existed until I started reading this forum regularly, just the general vague "Spellcasters outclass mundane at teens levels". Even then, nobody ever balked at playing the horridly T5 fighter, because the T5 fighter had a job to do in the party, did it well, and everyone had a good time.

What job is that? Because there's NOTHING he can do that in core that can't be done better, straight out of the box and doing nothing abusive, with a cleric or a druid.

A monster that particularly wants to can walk right past him. A monster with a decent grapple can mug him. A cleric can, at level 5, using core only and assuming he can somehow get the corpse to animate, create a 20 HD undead minion (with 40 bonus HP) who does his job FAR better than he'll do it for many levels thereafter.

It seems like there's a ton of RAW, even marginally RAI abuses that account for the vast majority of the T1/T2 designations, and that it's the intentional effort on the part of some players to "win at D&D" that account for the power discrepancy.

Open spell list (Wizard, Cleric, Druid) coupled with years and thousands of printed spells = potential for abuse. Realized abuse is where the problem lies.

Others have already hit this, but:

How do you read Gate so it doesn't break the game? Seriously, what do you think the RAI was that makes this a reasonable spell in a game with Planetars?

How do your read Shapechange so it doesn't break the game? Seriously, what do you think RAI was that makes this a reasonable spell in a game with multiple creatures with Wish as a SLA?

How do you read Wildshape and Animal Companions so they don't make the fighter obsolete? What do you think the RAI were when they gave a single class full spellcasting and two additional distinct class features that are BOTH far more powerful than most classes are? And then added a feat so it can use all three of these at once?

How do you read fly and wall of arrows and not have the fighter totally unable to hit enemy arcane casters at a rather modest level?

Stuff like Glitterdust and Web and Grease used EXACTLY as written is the core of the Batman wizard, and Batman + cleric is able to kill just about anything Batman + cleric + fighter can. So what's the fighter there for? His massive social skills and tactical knowledge? (Oh, wait, he doesn't have any skills useable for either of those, and he's starved for skillpoints to boot!)

Most of the seriously broken stuff is being used EXACTLY as intended. Stuff like Wall of Iron for infinite money is simply icing on the cake. But it also isn't using a dubious reading, it's using what the rules say the spell does.

[Gavinfoxx]

Doesn't another of the OWoD games use Verb/Noun? The old Mage game? Do any of the NWoD games use Verb/Noun?

Also, in addition to Ars Magica, World Tree uses a Verb/Noun system. World Tree, IMO, extrapolates magic's effect on a setting a bit better than than Ars Magica -- the setting almost reminds me of a Tippyverse setting. Almost.

[stainboy]

oWoD Mage didn't. It sometimes expected you to have one Sphere for what you do and another Sphere for the target, but it wasn't a formal rule or applied consistently.

I want to say you're right, but all I can think of is Changeling.

[KingofMadCows]

You could split the overpowered spells into multiple spells like what Pathfinder did with Polymorph. You could require feats to utilize all the powers of certain lines of spells or require feats to cast certain spells like the necrotic cyst line of spells.

[Rogue Shadows]

You could split the overpowered spells into multiple spells like what Pathfinder did with Polymorph. You could require feats to utilize all the powers of certain lines of spells or require feats to cast certain spells like the necrotic cyst line of spells.

Not certain what I'd do with Polymorph, but with Gate I'd up the casting time to 1 hour, at least. When I think of fantasy sorcerers or wizards or whatnot breaking apart the very fabric of reality to cross planes and summon the primal entities of Creation, I don't think of it as a spell that can be cast in less than six seconds.

Summon monster is more than adequate for the "combat summoning" idea.

[Dragonsoul]

The first thing would be to but every spell (Except maybe a handful of blaster spells) at a least a full round action, more for the more powerful spells
-Every spell should be able to save against, melee doesn't get free damage why should wizards?
-Neuter the polymorph, alter self etc spells ala Pathfinder
-Contingency can go f* right off.
-Make Concentration checks relevant(Like in Pathfinder)
-Take away Spells' free ticket against DR

[KingofMadCows]

Not certain what I'd do with Polymorph, but with Gate I'd up the casting time to 1 hour, at least. When I think of fantasy sorcerers or wizards or whatnot breaking apart the very fabric of reality to cross planes and summon the primal entities of Creation, I don't think of it as a spell that can be cast in less than six seconds.

Summon monster is more than adequate for the "combat summoning" idea.

Require feats to gain all the benefits from polymorph/shapechange. Make it so that you can only take the form of an animal, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid with only the physical stats and no extraordinary special attacks. Require feats for additional shapes and a feat to gain extraordinary special attacks of the shape. Require a feat for size changes too if you want.

If you want, you could also add penalties to spells. Make it so that the caster becomes fatigued or exhausted when certain spell end. Make it so that the caster takes constitution damage if polymorph/shapechange is dispelled while their shape is altered. Magic is supposed to be volatile and dangerous so there should some severe penalties when it's disrupted or not used properly.

[ImperatorK]

Or maybe use Giants homebrewed polymorph rules?

[Rogue Shadows]

The first thing would be to but every spell (Except maybe a handful of blaster spells) at a least a full round action, more for the more powerful spell

Mmn...not just the blaster spells, but otherwise I agree (I'd like to keep certain utility spells like feather fall at under 6 seconds to cast)

-Every spell should be able to save against, melee doesn't get free damage why should wizards?

Agreed, with the exception of magic missile (though the missile can still be protected against via shield and the like. Otherwise, no save).

Magic missile doesn't miss! That was essentially my slogan during Wizard's lead-up to 4E.

[OracleofWuffing]

Magic missile doesn't miss! That was essentially my slogan during Wizard's lead-up to 4E.

What was your slogan after they changed it to an automatic hit?

[Rogue Shadows]

What was your slogan after they changed it to an automatic hit?

I have honestly been avoiding 4E like the plague after I spent an afternoon reading through the 4E PHB at my local book store. The DMG and MM didn't do much to improve my mood.

So, I didn't know that 4E magic missile doesn't miss. It is nice to know, though.

[stainboy]

What was your slogan after they changed it to an automatic hit?

Technically it neither hits nor misses.

[KingofMadCows]

Or maybe use Giants homebrewed polymorph rules?

If fighters have take a bunch of feats just to effectively swing a certain type of weapon, casters should have to take feats to effectively cast a certain type of spell.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've currently got a homebrew campaign I am creating which is at least partially my attempt at making a balanced 3.5 set of classes to use. Feel free to pop over and add in your own two cents.

[BinaryMage]

If fighters have take a bunch of feats just to effectively swing a certain type of weapon, casters should have to take feats to effectively cast a certain type of spell.

No, weapons and spells are different in this respect. The fighter doesn't come prepared with forty different weapons for the fight, but the wizard comes prepared with forty different spells. Additionally, the fighter doesn't need feats to use a certain weapon, he just needs them to use it better. A mage doesn't need feats for a certain spell, but if he/she wants his/her skill with that spell to be better than normal, they need feats.

[Erloas]

No, weapons and spells are different in this respect. The fighter doesn't come prepared with forty different weapons for the fight, but the wizard comes prepared with forty different spells. Additionally, the fighter doesn't need feats to use a certain weapon, he just needs them to use it better. A mage doesn't need feats for a certain spell, but if he/she wants his/her skill with that spell to be better than normal, they need feats.

Obviously that is how it works, the question is: what is the justification for that?
A fighter without their preferred weapon is much weaker then with it. The fighters effectiveness is also directly tied to that weapon, and if that weapon doesn't have what it needs to be effective in a situation (such as overcoming DR) they are SOL. If the weapon is so key to a fighters ability to be even his mediocre self then why isn't it part of the class feature to be able to change from cold iron to adamantium to flaming as needed? These weapons also don't scale with level, get one at a lower level and it looses its relative effectiveness as the character levels, but spells scale themselves usually just fine on their own (at least most of the combat ones which is where it comes into play).

But the wizards/druids/clerics advancement with levels comes free and automatic. They don't even have to visit a magicmart and spend all of their money on a new weapon to be effective in combat, they get increased combat effectiveness for free.
Why does a wizard get access to almost all of the schools of magic with little to no drawback in using one school or another when a fighter can't even do the same with a simple sword and hammer? How is it that a the shape of a lump of steel is more complex then a completely different school of magic? Raising the dead and shooting a fireball seem to have more in common then hitting someone with a hammer versus hitting them with a smaller hammer or a larger hammer. How does that make any sense?
For that matter how are these spells less complex then figuring out how to grab someone or trip someone in a safe and effective manor?

It would seem to me to make things a bit more fair a caster should have to take a feat to cast spells from more then one school with any great effect. To the point where your primary school advances like normal and your other schools are no more then 4-5 levels below that without a feat for each school. Of course divine casting would need to be broken into schools for that sort of idea to work for them.

Why is it ok for casters to have everything they need to be effective in many situations handed to them where as a fighter has to heavily specialize to even be somewhat effective in a single specific situation?

[Jack_Simth]

Material components for the most part are more fluff than anything else.

For the most part, they're actually jokes ... and not very good ones. "Penny for your thoughts?" - Detect Thoughts has a copper piece as a focus. Fireball is magical gunpowder (Bat Guano: Potassium Nitrate and Carbon. Carbon -> Coal. So you've got Sulfur, Potassium Nitrate, and Coal... which is what goes into gunpowder). Sending is a telegram (sending things by wire - the other portion of the joke is the word limit).

Now, sure, some of them (the expensive ones) are intended as part of game balance. For the most part, though, they're jokes.

[NNescio]

Locate Object uses a dowsing rod (forked twig), Tongues needs a miniature Tower of Babel (ziggurat), Scrying uses a miniature TV set (Mirror + Eyeball + Copper + Copper/Zinc Battery), and Lightning Bolt is basically static electricity (Amber/Glass rod + Fur)