Clerics and Druids, Why is everyone against them?

[Togo]

Name one thing a fighter can do on his own with or without support that a cleric or druid can't do with or without the same support.

Go into classes and p-classes that don't advance spellcasting.
Fight as well all day, rather than just a few times per day.

Since we're on the subject anyway, how is a potent cleric not of use when it's in the same 'party slot' as the fighter? If we have a "Cleric, druid, cloistered cleric, wizard" party (where the cleric fills in for the fighter and the cloistered cleric for the rogue), then the party should be better than the 'standard' party, purely because a cleric with divine power activated is a fighter with spells.

No, he isn't. He has the same BAB, worse stats, worse feats. And how long does divine power last?

I'm fond of playing combat clerics. They're very good. I'd rather have a cleric and a fighter than two clerics.

[TroubleBrewing]

Go into classes and p-classes that don't advance spellcasting.

Clever, but not the issue.

Fight as well all day, rather than just a few times per day.

The Cleric doesn't have to go nova in order to be better than the Fighter. The Cleric can do the same thing as a Fighter, if he has to.

No, he isn't. He has the same BAB, worse stats, worse feats. And how long does divine power last?

While he might have slightly fewer feats, he has better stats due to buffs, and Divine Power lasts 24 hours. DMM is the Cleric's best friend.

I'm fond of playing combat clerics. They're very good. I'd rather have a cleric and a fighter than two clerics.

This just doesn't add up. A Cleric is, in literally every measurable way, superior to a Fighter. Why would you rather have something that is totally inferior?

[Engine]

Fight as well all day, rather than just a few times per day.

Nope, sorry.
A Fighter could fight few times a day like the Cleric. Why?

She has the HP resource: fight too many times a day, and you run out of HP.

[Togo]

Simple, because a spellcaster with his personal range buffs active offers a superior 'base chassis' on which to apply further buffs to a fighter. Not to mention said spellcaster can provide some of the buffs himself, freeing the spell slots and actions of other party members.

What are these personal buffs, and how are they lasting all day? I'm happy with the idea that spellcasters are better on occasion, as already stated.

As I already said, I wholly respect your opinion. Anyway it seems to me that you have a little prejudice here.

Those two statements contradict eachother...

You're right saying that as a Wizard one should make choices at the start of every day. It's true, absolutely true. But you should consider that a Wizard COULD make those choices: a Fighter couldn't. So while a Wizard could pick all the wrong spells for the day, could also pick the right spells (and a lot of spells are just good that they are worthy every day). A Fighter, instead, couldn't make a lot of choices. She has to stick with her build all day, every day.
An example: as a Wizard I couldn't pick the Fly spell and during the day it could happen the party has to fight a flying enemy. A Fighter just can't fly on her own.

Not without an item, or an appropriate prestige class. I suspect fly is a poor example, because in most cases the party is better off staying on the ground and using ranged attacks.

And let me say another thing, you say that spells are a limited resource: you're absolutely right. HP are another limited resource, so a Fighter has limits.

HP aren't a limit for the the fighter though. They're a limit for the party. The fighter is getting hit rather than other party members. In most cases he's harder to hit, has more hp reducing the need for vastly expensive in-combat healing, and may have DR.

Let's say that we have a flying enemy above us: you're a Fighter and I'm a Wizard. I could cast Fly on you, but unless I prepared another Fly I'm stuck on the ground. So we have two characters here, one that could do just one thing (just attack) and one that could do many things (spells prepared for the day). IMHO it's more useful the character who could do more things than just attack.

I'm not sure I understand. The fighter could attack, foul up the attack run of the creature, trip it and bring it down to earth, grapple it and cause it to lose flight capability, use an item, or just shoot it. Most of those don't involve flying.

The wizard can cast spells at it. For almost all of them, he doesn't need to fly either.

Frontliners are useful. But a frontliner excessively dependant on others isn't that useful.

If you feel like that, play one who doesn't rely excessively on others. But I'd suggest that a party that trades off capabilities is more effective than one that resents every exchange as being some kind of personal failure.

Tactical flexibility is the key: two spellcasters, same class, could prepare more spells that could cover more situations. A Fighter could just attack, or maybe trip. She's not tactical flexible, unfortunately.

She's better than a character that's just acting as a set of spare spell slots and actions for an arcane capability that the party already has.

Name one thing a fighter can do on his own with or without support that a cleric or druid can't do with or without the same support.

Go into classes and p-classes that don't advance spellcasting.
Fight as well all day, rather than just a few times per day.

Since we're on the subject anyway, how is a potent cleric not of use when it's in the same 'party slot' as the fighter? If we have a "Cleric, druid, cloistered cleric, wizard" party (where the cleric fills in for the fighter and the cloistered cleric for the rogue), then the party should be better than the 'standard' party, purely because a cleric with divine power activated is a fighter with spells.

No, he isn't. He has the same BAB, worse stats, worse feats. And how long does divine power last?

I'm fond of playing combat clerics. They're very good. I'd rather have a cleric and a fighter than two clerics.

Okay gimme a list of things that you would consider evidence enough to change your mind and I'll crank em out.
Level?, what point buy, and most of all what would it really take to convince you that this caster system of things works better.
Some people will balk at any evidence and I just wanna let you set the parameters so you might find it wholly satisfying.

Just an example of a caster that would do the front-line role better than a front-liner. And by better, I mean all day, not just for a fight or two. 5th level 28pt buy would be fine, and I don't need all the details. Just some indication of what you're thinking. If you can manage with the details that we went into this with, that is no DMM, no persist spell, and no polymorph (wild shape is fine), that would be better, but if you're relying on those, that's ok.

Remember also that you're designing a second whatever for the party. We're assuming the party already has a caster of whatever class you choose.

This is not an exaggeration - spells are literally just that good. Does he need to melee? Polymorph or Shapechange.

They're very good. I had a divine crusader with shapechange, though, so it's hardly limited to full casters.

What dos a frontliner do against the following tactics that monsters begin using around level eight or so: flight,

fly? Shoot?

teleportation, dimension door,

Shoot, charge?

etherealness,

Noone is more likely to have ghost touch weaponry than the frontliner.

damage reduction, and regeneration?

? Change weapons to overcome it? Ignore it as irrelevent? I really don't see the problem here. Surely the cleric or druid has more of a problem here?

save-or-suck tactics like hold person,

The same as everyone else - make save or suffer. If you're held, you personally can't do anything about it, caster or not - unless you're a warblade.

I'll give you a quick hint: nothing.

Ok, you need to play with some more competant people. Seriously.

What baffles me is that its not obvious to people that a Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Druid team... it nuts.

Largely from having tried it, I'm afraid. Your game may vary.

Nope, sorry.
A Fighter could fight few times a day like the Cleric. Why?

She has the HP resource: fight too many times a day, and you run out of HP.

So buy a wand of lesser vigour. That's if you insist on the front-liner healing themselves for presenting themselves as a target in place of the rest of the party.

[Engine]

Not without an item, or an appropriate prestige class. I suspect fly is a poor example, because in most cases the party is better off staying on the ground and using ranged attacks.

It's just an example: I just tried to say that you could use your spells on the Fighter, but most of the times is not so useful because the Fighter could do few thing, really few thing.

The fighter is getting hit rather than other party members.

Unfortunately, no. There's no aggro mechanic in D&D. The Fighter simply cannot reliably get targeted.

In most cases he's harder to hit

Again, no. A Cleric is harder to hit. Thanks to what? You're right, spells.

I'm not sure I understand. The fighter could attack, foul up the attack run of the creature, trip it and bring it down to earth, grapple it and cause it to lose flight capability, use an item, or just shoot it. Most of those don't involve flying.

It was an example: what I'm saying is that a Fighter isn't tactical flexible. Yes, she could do what you're saying. But nothing more.

If you feel like that, play one who doesn't rely excessively on others. But I'd suggest that a party that trades off capabilities is more effective than one that resents every exchange as being some kind of personal failure.

Now you're just exaggerating. It's just that I acknowledge that a full caster party is more flexible, more versatile, more efficient than one who includes Fighters. If someone wants to play a Fighter, fine. It's certainly not a failure of anyone: one should just be aware that a Fighter, for the most part, doesn't contribute that much from a mechanical point of view.

So buy a wand of lesser vigour. That's if you insist on the front-liner healing themselves for presenting themselves as a target in place of the rest of the party.

Again, a Fighter to be halfway efficient needs magic.

[Kaeso]

I think the real question is "who would have more fun?" and that honestly doesn't matter about which class you choose.

I agree with the first part, but not the second. If I pick a DnD class, I expect it to be a heroic warrior or skilled spellcaster. If a certain class fails to deliver what it says on the tin (the monk, CW samurai and truenamer are perfect examples) then it'll be a very disappointing experience. I guess that's why most players prefer tiers 3 and 4: they do exactly what they promise without being overpowering. A barbarian is good at smashing skulls, a beguiler is a trickster mage etc.

[Fox Box Socks]

Let's be practical here. The whole "the Fighter can fight all day and the Wizard is really only good for 4-6 encounters" is a point in the Fighter's favor if and only if the Fighter is in a party without casters.

The caster knows not to blow his wad too early, so he parses out his spells across the adventuring day. When he's running low, he announces to his party that he's low on resources (but not out, because he should always be prepared for something), and the party rests. This is how it has worked for literally every party with a caster in it that I have played in in all the time I played 3.5.

[MrRigger]

The Fighter is limited by his HP, which, you're right, can be restored more readily than spells via things like Wands of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor. However, the fighter has no way of activating it himself, unless he's blowing his extremely limited skill points on cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device and blowing his point buy to get his Charisma up (normally a dump stat for fighters), and even then he's not likely to reliably hit the DC 20 to activate the wand. So it's more likely that the cleric, druid, or bard is the one activating the wand. Which I see as working out like this:

McFighterson: Wow, that troll really smacked me one. Hit me with that wand a few times, would you, McClericson?

McClericson: Sure, but we need to find a place to camp for the night. I'm low on spells.

McFighterson: But I've got the HP to keep going!

McClericson: Well, then you and McDruidman's Fleshraker can challenge anybody who comes up on the camp tonight, because McDruidman, Oldey McElvenWizard, and I are all getting low on spells. That's the deal. If the party runs out of daily resources, we stop for the day before we're completely dry, just in case the wretched, manipulative force that dictates our lives decides to throw something unexpected at us during the night.

And if you needed more examples that prove a fighter isn't really necessary in a 3.5 game, look at this arc. Four Dwarven Clerics, covering the party roles without much trouble. Nobody even goes into Divine Metamagic: Persist cheese for all day personal buffs, and one is played so sub-optimally it may cause actual pain in some optimizers. Clerics (and Druids, Archivists, and Wizards) really are just that good.

Now, I'm not saying it isn't fun to play other classes. Some of my most memorable characters weren't that high on the tier scale. I had a lot of fun with my gnome rogue, and I still talk up my goliath warblade at times. But clerics, druids, wizards, archivists, and artificers mean you don't need any other classes.

MrRigger

[Kaeso]

Let's be practical here. The whole "the Fighter can fight all day and the Wizard is really only good for 4-6 encounters" is a point in the Fighter's favor if and only if the Fighter is in a party without casters

:p Not really, without casters there are only non-magical means of healing damage (and potions, but those are pretty expensive). This means a fighter in a non-caster party fights all day, and spends a week recovering.

[Fox Box Socks]

:p Not really, without casters there are only non-magical means of healing damage (and potions, but those are pretty expensive). This means a fighter in a non-caster party fights all day, and spends a week recovering.

True, but not exactly the point I was going for.

See, since D&D is a cooperative game, the party is expected to work together. If there's a Fighter and a Wizard that are bff adventuring buddies, and the Wizard needs to rest after 5 encounters, it doesn't actually matter how long the Fighter can do his thing before he needs to take a break, because he's going to be resting after 5 encounters anyway.

[Starbuck_II]

McFighterson: Wow, that troll really smacked me one. Hit me with that wand a few times, would you, McClericson?

McClericson: Sure, but we need to find a place to camp for the night. I'm low on spells.

McFighterson: But I've got the HP to keep going!

McClericson: Well, then you and McDruidman's Fleshraker can challenge anybody who comes up on the camp tonight, because McDruidman, Oldey McElvenWizard, and I are all getting low on spells. That's the deal. If the party runs out of daily resources, we stop for the day before we're completely dry, just in case the wretched, manipulative force that dictates our lives decides to throw something unexpected at us during the night.
MrRigger

Waiy, why is McClericson sleeping? He can just relax and keep watch and alert McFighterson that it is time to fight (as long as he no casts, his refresh rate is maintained, only Wizards have the must sleep issue).

[Worira]

It doesn't matter whether he casts or not, there's just one particular time each day he needs to spend an hour meditating. It doesn't matter if he's been sleeping or shooting holy fire at orcs until that hour.

[Fox Box Socks]

just shoot it

Only if he feels like being the least useful guy at the table. Fighters who spec for melee damage absolutely blow at ranged combat, and vice versa.

An Ubercharger or whatever up against a flying opponent is about as useful as he would be had he taken levels in Warrior rather than Fighter.

[LordBlades]

What are these personal buffs, and how are they lasting all day? I'm happy with the idea that spellcasters are better on occasion, as already stated.

DMM: Persist Divine Power and Righteous Might(and whatever else you might want to persist for that matter) for Cleric, Wildshape for Druid.

Secondly, you don't need to be fully buffed for the whatever many hours of the day when nothing happens, you need to be fully buffed when the big fights happen. As a caster (as opposed to a fighter) you have more than adequate means to either scout the enemy(various divinations, stealthy familiars, stealth aiding spells on yourself) so you don't get surprised and have time to buff or even surprise the enemy yourself(so you're buffed and he's not)(scry&die tactics, approaching under invisibility and silence etc.).

Third, even if somehow you do get ambushed and caught unprepared by something that you can't handle, at least as a caster you have the means to run away(turn invisible, fly away, burrow, teleport etc.). All the fighter can do is die (running away on foot in heavy armor doesn't really work).

[MrRigger]

Waiy, why is McClericson sleeping? He can just relax and keep watch and alert McFighterson that it is time to fight (as long as he no casts, his refresh rate is maintained, only Wizards have the must sleep issue).

My group always house ruled that all spellcasters, wizard, cleric, whatever, all need to rest. And even if the cleric doesn't need to sleep, he's still too low on spells to want to keep wandering around, waiting to trigger that random encounter table, so making camp isn't a bad idea for him either.

MrRigger

[Midnight_v]

Just an example of a caster that would do the front-line role better than a front-liner. And by better, I mean all day, not just for a fight or two. 5th level 28pt buy would be fine, and I don't need all the details. Just some indication of what you're thinking. If you can manage with the details that we went into this with, that is no DMM, no persist spell, and no polymorph (wild shape is fine), that would be better, but if you're relying on those, that's ok.

Remember also that you're designing a second whatever for the party. We're assuming the party already has a caster of whatever class you choose.

Seems pretty broad. Just before natural spell comes online. All day long... thats a little vague but I'm assuming you mean the daily fights which is 4, or 5 if things are getting nasty.
I find this to be acceptable. Gimme a bit.

[LordBlades]

Just an example of a caster that would do the front-line role better than a front-liner. And by better, I mean all day, not just for a fight or two. 5th level 28pt buy would be fine, and I don't need all the details. Just some indication of what you're thinking. If you can manage with the details that we went into this with, that is no DMM, no persist spell, and no polymorph (wild shape is fine), that would be better, but if you're relying on those, that's ok.

I'll give it a try also if you have nothing against it:

Neraph Focused Specialist Transmuter 5
Stats: Str 16(15+lvl 4 stat increase) Dex 12 Con 14 int 16 wis 8 cha 8
HP: 5d4+10 (24 HP)
Attack:
Feats: Knowledge Devotion, Sudden Extend, Combat Expertise, Imp. Trip
Skills: Concetration +12, Knwoledge (pick 4)+13
Memorized spells: 4/6/5/4: irrelevantx4/Nerveskitterx2, Shieldx2, Magic Weaponx2/Rope Trick, Alter Selfx3, Scintillating Scales/Displacement, Flyx2, Haste
Gear: Rod of Extend, lesser (3000 GP), +1 Mithral Twilight chainshirt (5100 GP), MW Guisarme (300 GP), MW Armor Spikes(300 GP) 5x MW Tools (concetration+knowledges) 50 gp left over for other crap,

With 3 extended castings of alter self into dwarf ancestor, char has a total of 300 minutes(5h, split into 3x 1h40 min intervals) of Alter Self, usually more than enough for an adventuring day, especially given the fact he can pop an extended Rope Trick and recover spells if he happens to run out.

His AC as a Dwarf ancestor is 10(base)-1(size)+1(dex)+18(natural)+5(armor)=33. That's pretty much way outside what monsters designed for a 5th level party can hit, but he can buff it with shield and/or displacement if needed. He can also get a pretty unhittable touch AC with Scintillating Scales when needed.

His offensive potential is one attack at +6 with the Guisarme or armor spikes, but he can usually hit the +2 DC with knowledge devotion for his 4 knwoedlge types. Also, he can cast haste once to give himself +1 attack and a second attack. He also has magic weapon in case of DR/magic.


EDIT: forgot to add MW tools in the gear section and 2 extra feats.

[dextercorvia]

Seems pretty broad. Just before natural spell comes online. All day long... thats a little vague but I'm assuming you mean the daily fights which is 4, or 5 if things are getting nasty.
I find this to be acceptable. Gimme a bit.

It is also before the fighter gets his iterative. The difference between a Cleric and a Fighter here is maybe a couple of points of strength, +2 to attack, and 5-10 HP. Cleric Domain abilities (which we gets since he took DMM off the table) are ~ the same as general feats, so two of them compared to the Fighter's 3 bonus feats I say are roughly equal. Then the cleric get's spells.

[Aquillion]

Go into classes and p-classes that don't advance spellcasting.

They can totally do that. It's not generally a good idea, but in fact if you switch at the right time, they'll still be incredibly powerful.

Fight as well all day, rather than just a few times per day.

DMM + Persist Spell for the cleric. For the druid, a moderate-level druid can remain in Wild Shape all day, has their animal companion all day, and has some buffs that naturally last all day; with these things, they can easily be more powerful fighters than a fighter.

Additionally, where are you getting the idea that fighters can fight all day? They have limited resources just like casters. It's just that for them, their resources are their HP rather than their spells.

[dextercorvia]

I'll give it a try also if you have nothing against it:

Neraph Focused Specialist Transmuter 5
Stats: Str 16(15+lvl 4 stat increase) Dex 12 Con 14 int 16 wis 8 cha 8
HP: 5d4+10 (24 HP)
Attack:
Feats: Knowledge Devotion, Sudden Extend
Skills: Concetration +12, Knwoledge (pick 4)+13
Memorized spells: 4/6/5/4: irrelevantx4/Nerveskitterx2, Shieldx2, Magic Weaponx2/Rope Trick, Alter Selfx3, Scintillating Scales/Displacement, Flyx2, Haste
Gear: Rod of Extend, lesser (3000 GP), +1 Mithral Twilight chainshirt (5100 GP), MW Guisarme (300 GP), MW Armor Spikes(300 GP) 300 gp left over for other crap,

With 2 extended castings of alter self into dwarf ancestor, char has a total of 300 minutes(5h, split into 3x 1h40 min intervals) of Alter Self, usually more than enough for an adventuring day, especially given the fact he can pop an extended Rope Trick and recover spells if he happens to run out.

His AC as a Dwarf ancestor is 10(base)-1(size)+1(dex)+18(natural)+5(armor)=33. That's pretty much way outside what monsters designed for a 5th level party can hit, but he can buff it with shield and/or displacement if needed. He can also get a pretty unhittable touch AC with Scintillating Scales when needed.

His offensive potential is one attack at +6 with the Guisarme or armor spikes, but he can usually hit the +2 DC with knowledge devotion for his 4 knwoedlge types. Also, he can cast haste once to give himself +1 attack and a second attack. He also has magic weapon in case of DR/magic.

You forgot your two Fighter bonus feats. One at 1st and one a 5th.

[LordBlades]

You forgot your two Fighter bonus feats. One at 1st and one a 5th.

Good point Made the char in a hurry during lunch break. Since I got a reach weapon and I'm large I'm thinking Combat Expertise and Imp. Trip(not too useful in the long run, but I thin they should work decently well on a 5th level build). Stand Still would have been better, but sadly not a fighter bonus feat.

[Fox Box Socks]

The fact that the challenge is for a level 5 character seems to be an admission that other classes are better, imo, as it's the highest possible level before Natural Spell goes fully online.

[TroubleBrewing]

The fact that the challenge is for a level 5 character seems to be an admission that other classes are better, imo, as it's the highest possible level before Natural Spell goes fully online.

And it's the highest level before DMM: Persist shenanigans become viable.

EDIT: Humans can have it online by 3rd level, but at 6th level they'll have the feat left over for Extra Turning, making it ACTUALLY viable, not just technically.

[SleepyBadger]

I thought the highest level before DMM was 0...

[dextercorvia]

A Human Cleric with the right domains can DMM Persist at 1st. He doesn't have much interesting to do with it at that level, but he can do it.

[TroubleBrewing]

A Human Cleric with the right domains can DMM Persist at 1st. He doesn't have much interesting to do with it at that level, but he can do it.

1st? You need Extend Spell, Persist Spell, and DMM: Persist. Is there a way, excepting flaws, to get three feats at level 1?

[dextercorvia]

1st? You need Extend Spell, Persist Spell, and DMM: Persist. Is there a way, excepting flaws, to get three feats at level 1?

Human: Persist
1st: DMM: Persist
Undeath domain --> Extra Turning
Planning domain --> Extend Spell

[SleepyBadger]

A Human Cleric with the right domains can DMM Persist at 1st. He doesn't have much interesting to do with it at that level, but he can do it.

Who knows? At low level if your character is especially poor even a mage armor might be worth persisting... Although I don't know what idiotic deity would grand both the Planning and Spell domains... probably the God of clerics planning on wraithstrike-cheese...

[TroubleBrewing]

Human: Persist
1st: DMM: Persist
Undeath domain --> Extra Turning
Planning domain --> Extend Spell

Huh. I had no idea that Planning granted Extend. Learn something new every day.

[SITB]

Who knows? At low level if your character is especially poor even a mage armor might be worth persisting... Although I don't know what idiotic deity would grand both the Planning and Spell domains... probably the God of clerics planning on wraithstrike-cheese...

The god of Batman Liches.


AKA Vecna.