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2011-07-22, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
I don't feel like responding to all of your post right now, except to say that the things that make Conan, Indiana Jones, and James Bond special in the scenarios you used is that the reader/viewer is led to believe that there actually is a threat of real death to the character. Even if we know in our hearts there isn't, we activate our willing suspension of disbelief to have an enjoyable read.
Avatar by Aedilred
GitP Blood Bowl Manager Cup Record
Styx Rivermen, Feets Reloaded, and Selene's Seductive Strut
Record: 42-17-13
3-time Division Champ, Cup Champion
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2011-07-22, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
Fhaolan by me! Raga avatar by Mephibosheth!
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2011-07-22, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
Hey, could we perhaps formulate an RPG specific law similar to Godwin's Law? Namely, as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving FATAL approaches 1 (100%)
We can also cement "reductio ad fatalis" and "argument ad fatalis" to the list of RPG specific informal fallacies, along with Stormwrack and Oberoni."It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2011-07-22, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see a 5th edition D&D that's a modular set of rules based around a core mechanic and core classes. Go ahead and give me two combat systems, one that's quick, easy, and doesn't require minis, and one that's got all the tactical options with 5' steps and rules for determining cover and AoOs. Give me two standard sets of spells, one that's nice and has minor consequences, and one that's hardcore and has deadly teleports and haste that ages people.
Heck, they could sell the "add-on rules" as $10, 50-page paperbacks. And the book could just say, "to use these rules, replace chapter X of the PHB with this book." Then they're making something that both players and DMs will buy, and they can make more segments of the market happy.
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2011-07-22, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
That's a pretty interesting idea.
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2011-07-22, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
And one Wotc might actually go for, considering it means they basically get to sell us the same game twice.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-07-22, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
And the person making the comparison automatically loses the argument. That's the other half of Godwin.
Of course, to say that there's no roleplaying in old school games is simply not true. It's a strawman. The roleplaying is probably of a different sort than many people are used to, but it's not the same as there being NO roleplaying.
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2011-07-22, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
It does provide a horrifying example, though, that preferred styles differ wildly. Someone out there apparently did think, "yknow, this roleplaying thing is pretty good, but what it needs is...". If that ain't proof of subjectivity, I don't know what is.
The idea of a hardcore ad-on module is a solid one, though. I'd buy it. I LOVE the idea of D&D catering to different playstyles through addition of extra rules/books. I feel that's an attitude that fits the game very well.
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2011-07-22, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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- Duvall, WA
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Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
Fhaolan by me! Raga avatar by Mephibosheth!
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2011-07-22, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
As someone who wouldn't buy it, I still think it'd be a great idea. One thing I really dislike is rules creep and alternate class mechanics. Having a clear speration of the core rules and add-on rules could make life a lot easier.
From this day on, it shall be known as the Law of Frozen Feet.Last edited by Yora; 2011-07-22 at 04:09 PM.
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2011-07-22, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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2011-07-23, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
This sounds really nice. However, I do play Fudge, which does this to an extent that even GURPS and Hero don't approach, and probably like the idea a lot more than most. Also, two sets? I'm thinking variable subsystems that can all interact with each other. Pick one of two in column A, pick one of five in column B, pick one of three in column C, so on and so forth.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2011-07-23, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
I'm not locked in to two sets of rules. You could certainly have more. For instance, in terms of combat rules, I can see three or more sets being reasonable. A quick method that draws on OD&D or AD&D, a more detailed miniatures based set that follows the 3.X or 4e style, and a set for large-scale mass combat. I'm sure other people can think up more ways they'd like to see it go too. But the more sets you have, and the more detailed the rules are in each set, the more room there is for broken combinations to unexpectedly show up.
If I were in charge of designing an edition and went this way, I think I'd lay out the possibilities for these types of things, and then narrow it down to two or three options in a few places to start with, knowing that over time, as 5e runs its 8+ years, more sets can be added in. Then I'd put all the simple versions together into a PHB or a boxed set and call that Basic D&D. That would be the simple combat rules, the simple skill system and no-skill system options, and the kindest magic system. Then, I'd sell books with an AD&D title for the other sets, as they'd be more complex and rules heavy, and thus "Advanced."Last edited by Hoddypeak; 2011-07-23 at 09:32 AM.
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2011-07-23, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
FATAL is it's own strange bird, a grotesque exaggeration of certain extreme elements in roleplaying not specifically D&D oriented.
But on the other hand, I've seen enough sexual harassment, misogyny and enforced gender stereotyping justified either through "That's what the rules say" or "that's how our it was historically" (usually with very little knowledge of history), that I'd say a fair dose of sexism is standard fare in classic games. It's not necessary, but it's common, in part due to the culture of older gamers.
Of course to me classic gaming is also: the guy relating excitedly how his character was slowly dismembered as he fled through his first and last dungeon; The custom random encounter table where there was an equal chance to meet any monster (roll of 186: the first level party on the road encounters a liche- they all die); DMs eagerly installing everything from Grimtooth's Traps in a dungeon; the DM getting annoyed that the players can't figure out the simple riddle solution to the trap, and "no you can't just disarm it, tell me exactly what you're doing"; parties of ten players, 20 characters, and 60 henchmen and hirelings; extensive lists of magic items, and no character backgrounds; writing a BASIC program to print out hundreds of PCs; and the Bard getting mugged by another players demon henchmen, while the paladin is carefully far down the hallway.
Oh yeah, you didn't need the rape scenarios, there were so many other ways classic D&D could suck.
And the thing is, if someone had asked that DM, he probably would have denied that he was engaging in harassment, or that he was doing anything other than standard D&D.
Of course back in the day, the idea of standard D&D was a lot more flexible than it is today. We grabbed anything that took our fancy, and stirred it into our games. Classic D&D included stuff from Arduin Grimore and Traveller, if someone wanted to take a Jedi Knight through Greyhawk, well that was what the psionics rules were there for, and so on. This is why I don't get a lot of the purist attitude; it's like someone saying beef connsume is the only REAL soup, and adding vegetables to broth renders it not-soup. I really blame Third Edition for that attitude.
The idea of a hardcore ad-on module is a solid one, though. I'd buy it."Conan what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, to sell them inexpensive furniture you can assemble yourself with an Allen wrench. And meatballs."
"Meatballs. That is good!"
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2011-07-23, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
Avatar by Aedilred
GitP Blood Bowl Manager Cup Record
Styx Rivermen, Feets Reloaded, and Selene's Seductive Strut
Record: 42-17-13
3-time Division Champ, Cup Champion
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2011-07-23, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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2011-07-23, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Under a 1st Ed AD&D DMG
Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
Reports of the speed and frequency of old school character deaths have been greatly exaggerated.
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2011-07-23, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-07-23, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Under a 1st Ed AD&D DMG
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2011-07-23, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
I wouldn't say that it was the culture of older gamers as much as it was the culture of the 70's-80's when most of those games took place. Having lived through that time as an adult, I can attest that the misogyny and enforced gender stereotyping was a common theme outside of games as well.
Unluckily, I've seen people do similar stuff to the highlighted with modern games within the last ten years. And these were *not* old-school gamers. Mind you, they were teenagers and possibly testosterone had something to do with it.
And nowadays they just download someone else's program to generate hundreds of PCs. Probably on their 'smart' phone.
I agree with that, mostly. Though I think it's an attitude that actually started with 1st edition AD&D with some of Gygax's writings. He would occassionally put things in Dragon magazine about how you should only use officially sanctioned AD&D stuff or you weren't playing D&D anymore. Third Edition was really bad for it, I agree.Last edited by Fhaolan; 2011-07-23 at 11:02 PM.
Fhaolan by me! Raga avatar by Mephibosheth!
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2011-07-24, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-22, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
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Re: Continuation of the D&D brand (from a business perspective)
True, but healing surges are a good thing! They encourage the party to continue with the adventure instead of pausing to rest at every fight, don't unduly penalize the PCs if they're on a deadline of some sort (my favourite type of adventure, though sometimes it's hard to balance)... And honestly, Hit Points were NEVER purely physical endurance, except maybe in the earliest editions - even back when I played AD&D 2nd Edition they were described as a combination of vigor, heroic spirit and dodging ability.
Besides, anyone complaining about martial characters being "unrealistic" should try and read some chivalric romances or mythological stories. Rama killed an entire army of demons with his bow, Charlemagne's paladins were notorious giant-slayers, many Arthurian knights fought dragons and fantastical beasts toe-to-toe, Robin Hood's feats of archery are legendary... Really, if anything, 4th Edition is the first edition to do this sort of thing right.
And those who complain about the playstyles being too similar... Well, they're just plain wrong. Sure, most everyone works under the same resource management system, but that's entirely different from playing the same. A Wizard and a Warlock both play very differently from a Fighter and a Rogue, for example.
Er... You probably shouldn't generalize. I've played D&D over a lot of editions - specifically original D&D, AD&D 2nd Edition, 3.0/3.5, and now 4th -, and I can honestly say 4th Edition is the first edition I've really liked - warts and all.Last edited by The Troubadour; 2011-12-22 at 04:05 PM.