GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

[AntiMatter101]

Is there a requirement for number of levels the PrC must be?

I have an idea that would only be worth a few levels, not more than 5.

[ErrantX]

Is there a requirement for number of levels the PrC must be?

I have an idea that would only be worth a few levels, not more than 5.

That's fine. Not a problem at all.

-X

[Hyooz]

I'm knee-deep in Finals grading time, but as that peters down, I have a concept for a Good-aligned initiator-type PrC I'll be jumping into with gusto.

[TheGeckoKing]

Derp, DracoDei just showed me an error with the Ironwill's maneuver table (Thanks mate) - just assume Text Over Table for the Maneuvers Readied, so its 2nd and 4th, not 1st and 5th.

[Glimbur]

My class is up. I don't think I did anything too exotic, but I'd still like to trade PEACHes.

[enderlord99]

I have an idea for the next contest, if anyoneErrant is willing to listen:

Spoiler

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Multiple-agents. Maybe spies for one agency, against another, who's true loyalties lie with a third... or maybe a loyal member of multiple organisations, which everyone else sees as mutually exclusive- and because of that, they have to keep secret the fact that they are manipulating those groups toward an alliance... or maybe something else. You (as in, the homebrewer) decide!

[Lord_Gareth]

Oi. On the one hand, I want to enter this contest. On the other hand, my life is REALLY busy - 40-hour work weeks and I just started my first quarter of college (woo!). I dunno, I'll put something up if I can. It'll be nice for once to work with people that aren't creepy and morally gray.

Well, not morally gray, anyway.

[ErrantX]

Oi. On the one hand, I want to enter this contest. On the other hand, my life is REALLY busy - 40-hour work weeks and I just started my first quarter of college (woo!). I dunno, I'll put something up if I can. It'll be nice for once to work with people that aren't creepy and morally gray.

Well, not morally gray, anyway.

I will be shocked if what you come up with is not both creepy and morally gray

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

I will be shocked if what you come up with is not both creepy and morally gray

-X

Morally un-gray is a requirement of the contest this time!

[Glimbur]

Morally un-gray is a requirement of the contest this time!

Good is the requirement of the contest. There might be some wiggle room there, depending on what exactly 'Good' means.

[sirpercival]

Alrighty, the mechanics for the Shadow Star Infiltrator are complete, though I still have to finish up the fluff. Any comments on the crunchery would be appreciated!

[hierophant]

Okay, I think I'm finished the Exempted. Might add a minor tweak or two. Tempted to up the BAB to 3/4, and might revise the skill list. But I'm happy with what I have up so far.

Any and all constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated.

Here's my take on what else is up:

Shadow Star Infiltrator:

Looks good. Roguish. Well written, and I like the fluff.
Strong in and out of combat abilities, though Starborn might be a bit much for Bluff and Disguise checks.
I'd throw in a Continued Training clause to explain what happens if a character doesn't already have any of those abilities.
Other than that, solid. Gold star.

White Flame Wielder:

Heh. Okay, I'm not overly familiar with Pathfinder, but here goes.
I'm intrigued by the alignment requirement for higher levels. Simple, but I've never seen it before. Nifty.
Straightforward caster PrC that grants positive energy benefits. I'm a little confused by the arcane/divine differences, but I assume that would make sense if I knew PF properly.
Fairly narrow focus, but well executed. I probably wouldn't play one myself, but it's nice support for an "anti-necromancer" archetype that isn't just a cleric.

Crucible:

Fun concept. Table is missing some bits and pieces. Possible Maximise Spell abuse, but there are ways and ways of doing that already, so eh.
Nothing mind-blowing, but a nice, simple, easy to play class. I think we don't see enough of those anymore.

By manipulating the etheric vibrations of your spells, you can co-mingle their energy with the essence of Evil in your foes and... look, it’s magic.

I laughed out loud at that

[sirpercival]

Shadow Star Infiltrator:

Looks good. Roguish. Well written, and I like the fluff.
Strong in and out of combat abilities, though Starborn might be a bit much for Bluff and Disguise checks.
I'd throw in a Continued Training clause to explain what happens if a character doesn't already have any of those abilities.
Other than that, solid. Gold star.

Sweet!

I've scaled back the Starborn Bluff/Disguise bonus somewhat, and edited Continued Training as requested. Rock on! I like gold stars

[Glimbur]

Thanks for the PEACH. Table is fixed.

Exempted is an interesting idea, though tough to get to work mechanically. So many different kinds of heroes can choose to always do the right thing and be shining paragons of Good. Let's see what you did with it.

Entry requirements are alright. You could require Exalted good, but honestly I don't like the Exalted mechanic.

Skills look reasonable, and 4+ is the lowest I like to see on a class.

Good Will save is obvious. I'll think more about BAB after I finish features.

Turn Undead but different is sensible. It scales pretty well, because outsiders tend to have hit dice similar to their CR unlike undead. Useful, especially with all the other support Turning has received.

Bonus senses are useful.

Greater Devotion is alright; DR might be better than AC but choices are nice.

Bonus Feats provide some customization and are fitting. I think there is a limit on how many Domain feats you are allowed, consider explicitly allowing this ability to break the rules.

Manifest Faith is handy, and I like how it automatically scales.

Omnipresence has interesting synergy with all sorts of stuff. Of course, there are touch spells, but what if you grapple your friend? Normally you move in to their space, so is this an inefficient but funny teleport?

Consecrated Self lets you annoy around undead and improves your turning. Fitting, not too strong.

Good Intentions seems like more of a Greyguard thing and I don't think it fits the class.

Omnipotence: the Protective Aura is the nicest part of being an [Angel]. You might explicitly spell out what this means, though the hyperlink is good enough.

This class has useful, thematic, and interesting abilities but I am not sure who would take it. Paladins/fighters/rangers would want more BAB, clerics want spells, bards want class features... kick it up to 3/4 BAB. And maybe provide partial progression of a previous class, though that is hard to write.

[hierophant]

Thanks!

Bumped BAB up to 3/4. Not sure what to do about Good Intentions. You're right that it doesn't quite fit the rest of the class... I'll leave it up until I think of something better.

Heh, grappling is one use I hadn't thought of for Omnipresence. Still, it's not exactly overpowered, and I did intend for fun things like that, though I mainly threw it in to help healing/buffing and aura - support stuff. Aid another works too, though I've never seen anyone actually do that.

Welp, when I have more time I'll see what else I can do.

[hierophant]

Bump for great justice!

Made a few changes to the exempted, namely:
Swapped Good Intentions for Good Standing,
Added a boost for those already proficient with their deity's favoured weapon,
And added a caster level increase option for Greater Devotion.

Also, brief PEACH for the Arcane Paladin:

Good concept (hah! I made a "funny".)
Requirements are easy for wizards, and bards, more difficult for sorcerors who get more synergy, so that's okay.
Decent chassis, low skills per level, but spellcasters normally have to deal with that anyway.
I like the increasing grades of duty as you level up. Also easier for a player to get used to that way instead of getting lumped with a giant list all at once.
Features are decent, but could use a bit more detail.
When spells are gained, is at the default cleric level? Can you convert spells into Cure X without knowing the spell beforehand?
You can convert spells into cures, but are the cure spells considered on your class list for learning or magic item use?
Small things like that.
I'd also consider dropping a level or two of casting, most likely at 9th level and somewhere between 3rd and 5th level.
Overall I'm a fan, but there's not as much character as some of the other entries (in my very subjective opinion - that's really a personal preference thing)
Anyway, great class for sorcerors, decent for wizards, interesting for bards.
It's a shame warlocks qualify but can't use half the features.
In all likelihood, it's overly powerful. Still, it's well executed and very concise.

So, uhhh, that's my 2c I guess.

[Vaynor]

I've just posted my submission, the Malefic Sentinel. Any thoughts/criticism would be greatly appreciated!

Edit: Woops forgot to put the spell list in. Adding that now! Spell list added and spells known section clarified.

[Grelna the Blue]

White Flame Wielder crunch done. Fluff still in progress, but close to done.

[hierophant]

Malefic Sentinel is... wow, that's niche. But let's take a good look at it.

Might be worth giving it 4 skill points per level. Nice to see good fort and will though.
Proficiencies are redundant, I think. Paladins and hexblades have martial proficiency, and paladins have heavy armour (and heavy shields). And divine casters don't need a clause saying what armour they can cast in.
Charisma based casting makes paladins happy. Nice spell list too, though cloudkill jumps out at me as being an odd choice.
Class features range from typical paladin fare to duskblade-esque goodness to good-hexblade plus, so that's all good.
I assume the non-good and evil penalties against Touch of Arcana don't stack, but it might be worth making that explicit.
Not wild about dazing opponents at level 14, seems a bit lackluster. Maybe stun on a failed save, daze on a successful save.
Luck of the Gods is wow, good stuff. But at ECL 20, I think the exhaustion afterwards is a bit harsh. I'd give the exhaustion a limited duration, allow a save against it or just throw it away altogether.
Overall, it's a great class. I just would hate to play the five levels before you've qualified to become one.

[Vaynor]

Malefic Sentinel is... wow, that's niche. But let's take a good look at it.

It's a prestige class, that's the point!

Might be worth giving it 4 skill points per level. Nice to see good fort and will though.

Yeah, I just stuck them with 2 since both paladin and hexblade get 2. Plus, they don't really need their skills for much anyways. I'll consider it.

Proficiencies are redundant, I think. Paladins and hexblades have martial proficiency, and paladins have heavy armour (and heavy shields). And divine casters don't need a clause saying what armour they can cast in.

Fair point, I wrote that from the perspective of a hexblade and kind of forgot paladins get that stuff. Woops! I did want to limit them to medium armor at the beginning, since although they cast all of their spells as divine spells they're still half-arcane casters, but the class became a lot more of a "tank" class as time went on, so I think I'll remove that too.

Charisma based casting makes paladins happy. Nice spell list too, though cloudkill jumps out at me as being an odd choice.

Yup, and no more Wisdom requirement for the spells, too! If you look at the hexblade spell list, they get basically every "cloud" spell on the wizard list, so I decided to add this in to give them a bit more on the offensive side with their spells, along with a few cloud spells from the SpC.

Class features range from typical paladin fare to duskblade-esque goodness to good-hexblade plus, so that's all good.
I assume the non-good and evil penalties against Touch of Arcana don't stack, but it might be worth making that explicit.

Indeed they don't stack, I'll specify.

Not wild about dazing opponents at level 14, seems a bit lackluster. Maybe stun on a failed save, daze on a successful save.

Well they can use it fairly often, so I thought with the penalty to saves and checks, combined with a penalty to AC (and losing your Dex to AC), dropping your weapon, and taking no actions might be a little overpowered. Do you think I should bump it to -8 at 14th and keep the daze, or stay at -6 and make it a stun?

Edit: Well, this is level 19 they get it at...hmm...

Luck of the Gods is wow, good stuff. But at ECL 20, I think the exhaustion afterwards is a bit harsh. I'd give the exhaustion a limited duration, allow a save against it or just throw it away altogether.

I'll say exhausted for one round.

Overall, it's a great class. I just would hate to play the five levels before you've qualified to become one.

Well, they're all about harsh beginnings, and being level 5 with only 2 full class levels is quite the harsh beginning!

Thanks for the comments, I've made some changes accordingly.

[Grelna the Blue]

Okay, I think I'm finished the Exempted. Might add a minor tweak or two. Tempted to up the BAB to 3/4, and might revise the skill list. But I'm happy with what I have up so far.

Any and all constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated.

[snip]

White Flame Wielder:

Heh. Okay, I'm not overly familiar with Pathfinder, but here goes.
I'm intrigued by the alignment requirement for higher levels. Simple, but I've never seen it before. Nifty.
Straightforward caster PrC that grants positive energy benefits. I'm a little confused by the arcane/divine differences, but I assume that would make sense if I knew PF properly.
Fairly narrow focus, but well executed. I probably wouldn't play one myself, but it's nice support for an "anti-necromancer" archetype that isn't just a cleric.

[snip]

Thanks. I appreciate the input on the White Flame Wielder and have edited it in an attempt to make it clearer what is going on with the divine and arcane members of the class. There is a considerably more text devoted to the arcane side, but that is primarily because the divine side is so straightforward.

I looked at your Exempted, and liked it overall. We don't see enough of the short PrCs, the flavor was good, and I didn't see any powers that were ridiculous in concept. I did have a few observations and questions.

First, regarding proficiencies, I think you might consider breaking up that first paragraph like so:

Proficiencies: An exempted gains proficiency with their deity's favoured weapon, if applicable it is not already possessed.

If they are already proficient, In addition, they gain Weapon Focus with that weapon as a bonus feat which may not be retrained or traded out in any way.

If they already have Weapon Focus with that weapon, or would later gain it from another source, they may instead add their class level as a sacred bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

Probably most of the people taking this class will be clerics, fighters, or paladins, who will all probably have proficiency in their deity's favored weapon anyway. It seems as if giving the proficiency for free could clean it up a bit, as the difference between a character getting proficiency in a weapon and getting +5 to damage on top of existing proficiency is rather extreme.

Regardless, this may be something you wish to put into the Special Column with a name, rather than just treating it as a proficiency adjustment.

Second, regarding the Reject Evil ability, ...

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Reject Evil: (Su) "Where light is, darkness may not enter in."
Exempted learn to channel their faith with such confidence that creatures anathema to goodness cannot bear their presence.

They may turn or destroy creatures with the Evil subtype (normally Outsiders) as a good cleric turns undead. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + the exempted's charisma modifier with an effective cleric level of the exempted's character level.

Reject Evil may be used in place of Turn Undead to qualify for or activate feats, prestige classes or other abilities.

...upon reading it my first thought was that this would make Exempted the favored 1-level dip of a million gamers. And that could be true even if the GM was one of those who disallowed DMM. That's not really a serious objection, though. However, the ability to make the character level the effective cleric level seems liable to serious abuse. There are other PrCs that grant turning/rebuking levels that stack with preexisting levels granting the same ability or that stack with nothing, but I cannot call to mind any that stack with every other level in any other class.

Third, regarding the Manifest Faith ability, that's pretty darn sweet. I like the power, but wonder if it might be too sweet for a cost of only two uses of an ability that can conceivably be used many times a day at higher levels with stat enhancers. Given that Manifest Faith can duplicate up to a 9th level Summon Monster, allowing that many uses per day seems questionable.

Finally, one thing I didn't see that I was looking for was anything regarding what would happen if an Exempted fell from grace. Is that something you have considered?

[hierophant]

Thanks. I appreciate the input on the White Flame Wielder and have edited it in an attempt to make it clearer what is going on with the divine and arcane members of the class. There is a considerably more text devoted to the arcane side, but that is primarily because the divine side is so straightforward.

You're welcome! The White Flame Wielder does seem to read easier now. I like the completed fluff too.

I looked at your Exempted, and liked it overall. We don't see enough of the short PrCs, the flavor was good, and I didn't see any powers that were ridiculous in concept. I did have a few observations and questions.

First, regarding proficiencies...<snipped for length>...Regardless, this may be something you wish to put into the Special Column with a name, rather than just treating it as a proficiency adjustment.

Yeah, I've revised that part again, thanks for the input. I decided the bonus damage was redundant with Greater Devotion there, and also realised that exempted couldn't overcome DR/good easily, hence the new Champion of Light ability. A little harsh on atheist/agnostic exempted, perhaps, but them's the breaks.

Second, regarding the Reject Evil ability, upon reading it my first thought was that this would make Exempted the favored 1-level dip of a million gamers. And that could be true even if the GM was one of those who disallowed DMM. That's not really a serious objection, though. However, the ability to make the character level the effective cleric level seems liable to serious abuse. There are other PrCs that grant turning/rebuking levels that stack with preexisting levels granting the same ability or that stack with nothing, but I cannot call to mind any that stack with every other level in any other class.

Honestly, I've considered making it scale in different ways, but that seemed unnecessarily complicated, and the abuse isn't anything you can't get with a one level dip in cleric anyway, or Sacred Exorcist which is easier (but later) to qualify for.

Third, regarding the Manifest Faith ability, that's pretty darn sweet. I like the power, but wonder if it might be too sweet for a cost of only two uses of an ability that can conceivably be used many times a day at higher levels with stat enhancers. Given that Manifest Faith can duplicate up to a 9th level Summon Monster, allowing that many uses per day seems questionable.

Changed to need Reject Evil uses equal to spell level.

Finally, one thing I didn't see that I was looking for was anything regarding what would happen if an Exempted fell from grace. Is that something you have considered?

If they become non-good, they no longer qualify for the class and can't use its features? I didn't really see the need to make that explicit.
Alternatively, learning to channel "good" energy is something you can do if you've learnt how, even if now angels will hunt you down for abusing their gifts. I figure it's a DM call.

Thanks for your feedback! I was happy enough with my first product, but it feels good to go back and polish off some rough edges.

[ErrantX]

Just over 24 hours until contest close people. Just a heads up!

-X

[enderlord99]

I have an idea for the next contest:

Spoiler

Show

Multiple-agents. Maybe spies for one agency, against another, who's true loyalties lie with a third... or maybe a loyal member of multiple organisations, which everyone else sees as mutually exclusive- and because of that, they have to keep secret the fact that they are manipulating those groups toward an alliance... or maybe something else. You decide!

How's this sound?

[sirpercival]

How's this sound?

Sounds like I would just repost the Shadow Star Infiltrator

[Lord_Gareth]

I think we should start the new year with a theme of newness of some variety.

[hierophant]

I think we should start the new year with a theme of newness of some variety.

I like the sound of that! Rejuvenation, revolution, rebirth, resolution - that sort of thing?

[Lord_Gareth]

I like the sound of that! Rejuvenation, revolution, rebirth, resolution - that sort of thing?

Yeah! All that stuff ^_^

[Hyooz]

I'll be getting a last-minute entry up. Holidays, huh?

[sirpercival]

OK, finally finished the fluff on the Shadow Star Infiltrator. Whew, just under the wire!