GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

[ErrantX]

I'm really looking forward to the evil contest. I have a really neat idea for that one that I'm just burning to write up.

For chaos, though, I'm thinking of a class derived from full caster classes, that sacrifices about 7 levels of spellcasting for class features based upon chaos theory. The class abilities would be based on the idea of "move one stone, and have effects that ripple into something much greater and unexpected," with higher levels offering more powerful effects and greater control over these intrusions into chaos theory.

I'm just a bit concerned, though - the prestige class requires a ton of trust between the GMs and the players, and it would be relatively easy for a sadistic GM to make the class features completely ineffective. Since I've never seen a class tie-in so closely to roleplaying before, I wanted to get a few opinions on everyone thinks about this weakness before I continue any further. Is it usually considered poor to have a significant part of the class tied to roleplaying and to put a lot of focus on GM-player trust?

Me? I'd be fine with it as a player. As a DM I'd be a little leery. But only because I know of the tendency for players to get a bit out of control and how they can spin even a simple Cause -> Effect flow into something far, far wilder than you ever expected. I still have a vague memory somehow of a scene where my players had papers to get into a City, the City had no reason not to let them in as they were there on official business, and there was a plan being created about how they couldn't just WALK in but had to concoct a scheme which involved, in part, capturing and cloning a flock of eagles, finding 1,000 feet of rope, 15 cows, and figuring out how to fashion a crude ballista/catapult.

Sounds like Mage: the Ascension to me

If too much of its free-form, then it becomes a very hard class to run a game with. D&D is not a game of formless rules, in fact quite the opposite, it is a very rigid game of structure and organization, so having a class who's powers are built on the player's ability to BS like nobody's bidniss doesn't strike me as a wise plan. It sounds awesome in the right group, but I think for the purposes of a D&D in general, you'll run into more problems then the class solves. This is not me saying "Don't Do It", this is me saying "Be Careful With This."

-X

[Felyndiira]

White Wolf RPGs are definitely one of the primary inspirations .

I definitely wasn't thinking of giving the player full control over the game world. My idea is that the player suggests something (like "hamper this plan that the BBEG is doing" or "allow me to meet someone with a lot of connections in this kingdom"), with levels in the prestige class determining how powerful of a suggestion he can make. The DM would then either refuse if it's too specific or too direct, or suggest an event that the player must take in and the actual result that it will have (like "if you slay the rabbit to your left and put it on the road, the baron's cart will trip over it early morning tomorrow, allowing your party to present yourself as his helpers and become friends with him.")

The class will have mechanics for penalties for more extravagant requests as well. I was thinking that there will be points that the player must distribute amongst a set of "bad things" depending on how powerful the request is, and the DM will have some points that he distributes as well. Thus, a very powerful request (like "hamper the BBEG's take-over-the-world plan") might require the player+party to do three different quests of difficulty to help push along the event, take longer before the event happens, and/or have side effects of certain severity that even the player could not foresee. A simpler request might literally require only a stone to be moved and take only a day to come into fruition. The player will have some limited resources to try to mitigate these, as well.

The class, thus, could easily be reigned-in by the DM (he could tell the player, for instance, "you see no paths before you that allow you to instantly go up 20 levels without work" or "you see no paths that ends in the outright assassination of the BBEG"). My main concern with the class is that it's giving the DM a lot of fiat power on a class mechanic, which I do not know if it's really a good idea.

[Kazyan]

A stab at the Aegiothir's mechanics is up. I still have to figure out where to put the Necklace of Adaption-like effect and the plane shifting.

[Mephibosheth]

The crunch and a fair amount of fluff for the shattered soul is up!

I would very much appreciate any input people have, as I've never tried to homebrew something quite like this before. I'm particularly interested in what people think would be a reasonable requirement. I want it to be available to really any character and am pretty happy with the fluff requirement, but if anyone has suggestions I would very much appreciate them.

Mephibosheth

[Tarsten Corvus]

A Requirement could be :Must originally Lawful. Neutrals tend to bend more and if your just good you can go Chaotic.
Also the Skill Ranks seem a bit high for a 6th level. Doesn't it say that you can't go past your level with Skill Ranks for balancing issues??
And my last piece of Info/advice/idea. Is Soul Specialty:When you gain a Shard that is a different class then your original one. you may gain 1 Weapon and 1 Armor Proficiency for that class.
(example Fighter: may choose one of the weapons and 1 armor to be proficient when that Shard is dominant.)
Just some ideas/ questions Love the class tho :)

[Mephibosheth]

Thanks so much for the comments!

A Requirement could be :Must originally Lawful. Neutrals tend to bend more and if your just good you can go Chaotic.

I thought about something like that, but I still want it to be available to just about everyone. The main thing I'm looking for is a way to prevent people from entering before 6th level that pretty much anyone can meet without just saying "character level 5." I guess the way I have it now isn't horrible; I was just curious if anyone on the boards had a better idea.

Also the Skill Ranks seem a bit high for a 6th level. Doesn't it say that you can't go past your level with Skill Ranks for balancing issues??

For a skill that is a class skill, you can have a number of ranks up to your class level + 3. Basically, 4 points a 1st level and one point at every subsequent level. That's why you see a lot of PrCs with 8 ranks in a certain skill as a requirement. You have to be at least 5th level to meet that requirement.

And my last piece of Info/advice/idea. Is Soul Specialty:When you gain a Shard that is a different class then your original one. you may gain 1 Weapon and 1 Armor Proficiency for that class.
(example Fighter: may choose one of the weapons and 1 armor to be proficient when that Shard is dominant.)

Unless I'm misunderstanding your suggestion, that already happens, though I didn't say so explicitly. Each soul splinter is essentially a completely different character built in almost all ways from the ground up. So if you have a soul splinter that is a fighter, you get fighter bonus feats, skills, BAB, saves, and weapon and armor proficiency. But I should say so explicitly. Thanks for pointing that out and for all the comments!

[Techwarrior]

Whoa whoa whoa people... I know that In a Waking Dream didn't have such a huge turnout, but how am I the only one who seems to have noticed that it missed the contest archive, and was in fact, completely missed with numbering

And... the current one seems to have last contests dates attached to it.
[/nitpicking]

Since my PrC is mostly done, aside from copy/pasting the fluff off of my other computer, I'll take a shot at PEACHing the other contestant's entries.

[Morph Bark]

Whoa whoa whoa people... I know that In a Waking Dream didn't have such a huge turnout, but how am I the only one who seems to have noticed that it missed the contest archive, and was in fact, completely missed with numbering

Both it and Pet Me! even are numbered XXXIII. It was probably an oversight on ErrantX's part, as he was unable to host it at the time.

[Mephibosheth]

With the twin goals of bringing the contest back onto the front page and perhaps soliciting a comment or PEACH or two, I hereby announce that the Shattered Soul is (with the exception of gear and skills for 1/3 of the sample encounter) completely done! I reserve the right to fix typos and re-word things, but unless anyone spots a major problem (always a definite possibility), it will stay more-or-less as is.

[ErrantX]

Both it and Pet Me! even are numbered XXXIII. It was probably an oversight on ErrantX's part, as he was unable to host it at the time.

Going back and renumerating contests would be... difficult, but I will add it into the roster tonight. Mea culpa.

With the twin goals of bringing the contest back onto the front page and perhaps soliciting a comment or PEACH or two, I hereby announce that the Shattered Soul is (with the exception of gear and skills for 1/3 of the sample encounter) completely done! I reserve the right to fix typos and re-word things, but unless anyone spots a major problem (always a definite possibility), it will stay more-or-less as is.

I will look over this tonight, not every day does an old buddy from the Avatar D20 project resurface!

-X

[Mephibosheth]

I will look over this tonight, not every day does an old buddy from the Avatar D20 project resurface!

I'm still around, though I lurk more than I used to and life has gotten a lot busier. It is weird how few of the Avatar d20 contributors are still around, though. I still post the odd bit of homebrew every once in a while. I've actually started going back over the Avatar d20 stuff and cleaning it up, making it simpler and easier, and attempting to integrate the two versions into one. But it's going really slowly since I keep getting distracted by life and other homebrewing projects. I love these contests. I always tell myself I'm going to enter them more often, since they always inspire such great homebrew from everyone.

[sirpercival]

I'm still around, though I lurk more than I used to and life has gotten a lot busier. It is weird how few of the Avatar d20 contributors are still around, though. I still post the odd bit of homebrew every once in a while. I've actually started going back over the Avatar d20 stuff and cleaning it up, making it simpler and easier, and attempting to integrate the two versions into one. But it's going really slowly since I keep getting distracted by life and other homebrewing projects. I love these contests. I always tell myself I'm going to enter them more often, since they always inspire such great homebrew from everyone.

There's an entire subboard of Avatar d20 on minmaxboards...

[Morph Bark]

There's an entire subboard of Avatar d20 on minmaxboards...

Not that it matters much right now, though.

[sirpercival]

Not that it matters much right now, though.

MMX will hopefully be coming back soon, is the word. It's been cleaned and resubmitted to the hosting company.

[Mephibosheth]

There's an entire subboard of Avatar d20 on minmaxboards...

Interesting. I'm not finding anything just skimming through the wayback machine or with a few quick google searches, but I'll have to check it out if/when the boards go back up. I seem to remember there was a split-off of the Giantitp Avatar d20 project that went over to brilliantgameologists. I wonder if it's the same one?

[Glimbur]

It should now be clearer what I meant by 'a thing'.

I desperately need a PEACH or twelve for this monster, but I don't blame you if the idea of randomly determined class features is too much for you to bother with. I'll start PEACHing... tomorrow, maybe.

[Tarsten Corvus]

Could I Get a Peach of The Wandering Thief before the contest is over please?

[Mephibosheth]

Could I Get a Peach of The Wandering Thief before the contest is over please?

Sure, no problem. I just realized I owe you for looking at the shattered soul.

In general, I don't see anything objectionable balance-wise about the wandering thief. In fact, while I don't have a particularly in-depth familiarity with Pathfinder (which I assume you're using as the base for the PrC), it seems somewhat underpowered to me. Most of the abilities are just bonuses to various skills which, while undeniably useful to a rogue or other skill-based character, probably aren't going to break the game. I wouldn't object to a more rapid sneak attack progression, for example. That's my general impression.

Another broad comment I would make is that a bit of editing wouldn't go amiss. There are some sentences that are unclear or fragmented. Nothing egregious, but definitely worth a second glance. In particular, I don't know what you mean by "When making a Knowledge check on all Histories when making Gather Information Check" in the Favored Terrain description.

Now on to the line-by-line. Just a few specific suggestions.

An Eye for Something Shiny (Ex): Always looking around for Shiny's he might procure for later. The Wandering thief get's a +2 to perception every 4 levels from At first level. Up to a +6 to perception at level 10. This is also to find quick escape routes to leave places and situations quickly, allowing him to scan for secret doors or potential exits as a swift action.

First, there's a bit of a disagreement between your table and your text. You say in the description that the perception bonus increase by +2 at 1st level and by an additional +2 every four subsequent levels, but the table has it going up at 5th level (a gap of four levels) and 10th level (a gap of five levels). Either way would be fine, just make sure they agree.

Also, I don't know if Pathfinder has this, but plain old 3.5 has a feat called Quick Reconnoiter that is similar to the "scan for secret doors or potential exits as a swift action" part of your ability. Might be something to consider as a less-specialized alternative.

Calling Card: Being confidant in his ability to steal things the wandering thief will leave a calling card after he steals the object he desires. The use of this calling card helps establish a reputation for himself, and many wandering thieves create grand titles for themselves to be called. The wandering thief gains a +2 bonus Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks due to his extreme skill, and each level of wandering thief he possesses grants a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff checks when dealing with the criminal subculture of the city as well as a -2 penalty to Diplomacy checks when dealing with those he would steal from.

My only suggestion for this would be to specify with whom exactly he suffers a Diplomacy penalty. What do you mean by "those he would steal from?" The nobility? Rich merchants? Anyone who isn't a criminal? What if he specializes in stealing from other criminals? Or is this calling-card based? Like he suffers the penalty when interacting with the type of people from whom he has a reputation for stealing? What if he's in disguise?

That's all that strikes me after reading it few a few times. Bear in mind that I'm not too familiar with Pathfinder (though I had the SRD open while I was writing this), so my comments might not jive with differences between Pathfinder and 3.5. All in all, a decent class. Just needs a little polishing!

Mephibosheth

[enderlord99]

Mephibosheth:

1. Can I call you "Meph" from now on?

2. How does the Shattered Soul interact with multiclassing and/or other prestige classes?

[Tarsten Corvus]

Well Mephibosheth thanks very much :)) i appreciate it.

My only suggestion for this would be to specify with whom exactly he suffers a Diplomacy penalty. What do you mean by "those he would steal from?" The nobility? Rich merchants? Anyone who isn't a criminal? What if he specializes in stealing from other criminals? Or is this calling-card based? Like he suffers the penalty when interacting with the type of people from whom he has a reputation for stealing? What if he's in disguise?

This is his Target so to speak. If he picks a target ( Nobility, Lord, Poor) whatever that is who he has the increased difficulty with. It is not set to a specific class more of the Specific person sort of thing.

[Mephibosheth]

1. Can I call you "Meph" from now on?

Of course. Everyone does!

2. How does the Shattered Soul interact with multiclassing and/or other prestige classes?

I knew I was forgetting something. Thank you for reminding me that I needed to address this. My intention was that a shattered soul wouldn't be able to multiclass once she had started on the PrC. That's why it's 15 levels long. I completely forgot to add something to that effect, but I'll do so now.

Thanks again!

[enderlord99]

Of course. Everyone does!


I knew I was forgetting something. Thank you for reminding me that I needed to address this. My intention was that a shattered soul wouldn't be able to multiclass once she had started on the PrC. That's why it's 15 levels long. I completely forgot to add something to that effect, but I'll do so now.

Thanks again!

What if they're already multiclassed (starting as Fighter3 / Rogue3, for example)? Would their "original" personality progress as a Fighter or a Rogue? What do they do when they reach Epic level (or 22nd, in the case of this example)?

[Mephibosheth]

What if they're already multiclassed (starting as Fighter3 / Rogue3, for example)? Would their "original" personality progress as a Fighter or a Rogue? What do they do when they reach Epic level (or 22nd, in the case of this example)?

I think that in that case, the player could choose one of the classes to advance. I'm not sure about an epic progression; I've never played an epic game and don't really have a good idea of how they work. I'm tempted to say that they just continue to advance their soul shatters as the epic progressions for the different base classes, but I don't really know enough about epic levels to say for sure.

[enderlord99]

I think that in that case, the player could choose one of the classes to advance. I'm not sure about an epic progression; I've never played an epic game and don't really have a good idea of how they work. I'm tempted to say that they just continue to advance their soul shatters as the epic progressions for the different base classes, but I don't really know enough about epic levels to say for sure.

...Or maybe, Epic level lets you begin multiclassing again, but all 7 splinters have different builds, rather than different single classes.

Maybe?

[Mephibosheth]

So...something like:

Epic Shattered Souls: When you reach 16th level and beyond in the shattered soul prestige class, your soul splinters continue to advance in their individual base classes using the normal rules for epic characters. At level 16 and beyond, your soul splinters may also choose to multiclass or select prestige classes for which they meet the requirements, following the normal rules for epic-level multiclassing.

Would that be satisfactory?

[enderlord99]

So...something like:

Epic Shattered Souls: When you reach 16th level and beyond in the shattered soul prestige class, your soul splinters continue to advance in their individual base classes using the normal rules for epic characters. At level 16 and beyond, your soul splinters may also choose to multiclass or select prestige classes for which they meet the requirements, following the normal rules for epic-level multiclassing.

Would that be satisfactory?

It would be perfect!

[Mephibosheth]

OK. Done and done. I added it to the "playing a shattered soul" section. Thanks a lot for your help!

[Glimbur]

PEACH for Abyssal Apprentice

Fluff is fine.

Entry requirements: Is this a pathfinder class? Because otherwise you might want to increase the skill requirements to 13 ranks, because that happens at level 10. Not a big deal. Also, the Scourge requires a good feat and an ok feat, while the Seducer requires two bad feats. I'll see if I can think of better suggestions.

Skills: this is a big boost for people who come in as fighter-types. Mechanically that's probably fine, but it also means that if you are a low-skill guy, suddenly when you devote yourself to the Abyss you become much better at tumbling, listening, knowing about the planes, moving silently, sleight of hand... Not really a balance problem but a flavor problem.

Hit die: this is similar to the skills problem: rogues typically don't get a d10. Again it isn't a big deal but it is unusual.

Full BAB and two good saves is pretty strong. This chassis is about as strong as Ranger, though with fewer class skills.

Scourges probably gain no proficiencies, while Shadowstalkers get medium armor. Also, Shadowstalkers were Seducers back in the prerequisites section.

Demonic Embrace must be the heart and soul of the class. I like that there are options at most levels.

Level 1: Claw attacks are not very helpful unless you build around them. Since you probably have a greatsword, Scourges will take Great Cleave. That means this is a lot like a fighter level. Shadowstalkers will take +2d6 sneak attack.

Level 3: stat bonuses are pretty powerful; generally classes do not give out untyped bonuses. Maybe make them Profane, which makes it a bit less powerful because it won't stack as well.

Level 5: Probably Supreme Cleave here, though a bite secondary attack is useful because your mouth isn't usually full. +2d6 sneak attack is the clear winner here.

Stat boosts are ok.

+5 to AC, hit, and damage is both too strong and too bland. +5 to disguise, hide, and move silently is kind of weak and too bland.

Demonic Perfection: Does the Apprentice get the [native] subtype? This is kind of a big deal for outsiders. Also, this ability happens at level 20. A Babau is CR 6, and it's not terribly helpful out of combat either. A succubus is CR 7, with more out of combat applications. In either case, they are too weak to be the capstone to a class that happens at level 20.

Fluff is alright, though again you have Seducers rather than Shadowstalkers.

Summary
You've got some ideas here, but half of the levels don't have features and some of the features are pretty bland. I would suggest focusing on either the warrior-type or the rogue-type and making them unique. The Abyss is about madness, so what about a sneak attack that damages your sanity (modeled with a Confusion like effect). The Abyss is ever-changing, so what about some swift action teleporting? What you have here is weak in comparison to other choices, so you have room to add interesting options. Maybe throw in, say, 1d6 sneak attack every 3 levels so there's a cost versus going rogue.

[sengmeng]

I'm working on an entry for the current contest, but unfortunately, I posted part of it in its own thread for PEACHing... part of my prestige class was that you get a template added to you, and I assumed the template existed, but then I realized I would have to make it myself. Would it be acceptable to move that thread here and post my entry, or do I have to drop this particular class feature? Link

[ErrantX]

I'm working on an entry for the current contest, but unfortunately, I posted part of it in its own thread for PEACHing... part of my prestige class was that you get a template added to you, and I assumed the template existed, but then I realized I would have to make it myself. Would it be acceptable to move that thread here and post my entry, or do I have to drop this particular class feature? Link

If you wanted to make a class around your template, I'd be fine with that.

-X