GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

[GreenSerpent]

Small question. Are 3.0 materials allowed if they have recieved an official update to 3.5?

I ask because my idea involves some material from the Manual of the Planes (though I already have an adaption planned for Eberron campaigns).

[Amechra]

It'll be fine.

I've got the initial fluff up for the Blameless Sinner. Can anyone guess what the class' schtick is?

[GreenSerpent]

Got the inital work for mine, the Youthstealer, up. Going to be interesting working out how to balance it mechanically.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Amchera: Some sort of compulsion-based class, convincing others to do your dirty work for you.

[Amechra]

Nope.

A spoiler?

It is about proving to the world that heroism doesn't exist, that the whole damn place is a cycle of horrible people doing horrible things to each-other.

The ultimate vision is that you can walk into a town and, half an hour later, everyone will be trying to kill everyone else.

The capstone will metaphorically turn you into a gaping maw that devours morality.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Wow. Kinda craps over mine. The capstone just turns you into a Demon. Granted, by then you would have your own personal horde of demonic forces, but still.

[ErrantX]

Small question. Are 3.0 materials allowed if they have recieved an official update to 3.5?

I ask because my idea involves some material from the Manual of the Planes (though I already have an adaption planned for Eberron campaigns).

That's fine, it's official WotC content.

-X

[GreenSerpent]

*yay*

It works better for Eberron because there's essentially a Realm of the Faerie there, but Faerun doesn't have one. Hence why I need to make a note stating that it is suggested that the "harsh" plane of Faerie is used if Faerun is the campaign setting.

[Amechra]

What do people think of my class ability names?

I'd like to know whether or not they get the idea across.

[malonkey1]

They get the idea across, but they may be a bit long-winded:

ENLIGHTENED MESSAGES:

• "Who are your friends?" could work.
• "Are they really your friends?" might need to be changed to "false friendship"
• "No one actually loves you." could be changed to "You are alone"

MORALITY IS A LIE:

• "The gods don't come here no more." could be simplified into "God is dead." gets a Nietzsche reference in there, too.
• "Why pray to those who don't care." might be better as "We killed him."
• "Morality is a joke." could work, but I feel like "I reject your morality!" might work better, especially when followed with...
• "And substitute my own!" in place of "The cold, depressing truth."

But this is before seeing the features. If the features fit the names, I withdraw my complaint.

[Aldurin]

Well, might as well start participating in these contests so I get better at homebrewing.

My first submission is definitely a combination of Dread Necromancer and Rogue, with a very, very heavy fear theme going on. Hopefully the mechanics aren't too powerful (I didn't want dead levels and the last level is gonna have a worthwhile capstone DAMMIT.) I'm gonna flesh out the fluff more later, but I wanted to get what I have out there now.

[GreenSerpent]

Decided I need to do some reworking of the Youthstealer to better fit its theme. *sigh*

[Kazyan]

And there we go, Colorless Rosethorn.

PEACH? I'm concerned that it's a bit wide-of-the-mark for an eeeeeevil contest.

[Network]

What do people think of my class ability names?

* I'd like to know whether or not they get the idea across.

Many are interesting, can't wait to see them. About their names though:

• I wouldn't touch Enlightened Message (Who Are Your Friends?) and (But Are They Really Your Friends?).
• "No One Actually Loves You" isn't especially flashy.
• I agree with Malonkey1 that Morality Is A Lie (The Gods Don't Come Here No More) and (Why Pray To Those Who Don't Care?) should be changed for a Nietzsche reference.
• "Morality Is A Joke" may be changed too, but I have no precise idea in mind.
• I'd change "The Cold Depressing Truth" for "The Awful Truth". That's shorter, cooler, and it couples as a Galneryus' reference too.
• Lingering Doubts and Internalized Song didn't attract my attention, but that's just me.

[Glimbur]

PEACH of Villainous Adept. The name is kind of... it feels like it was pulled from a thesaurus. A lot of things are already taken by canon classes or well-loved homebrew, so things get tricky.

Entry is after level 5 assuming a full BAB class with Intimidate in-class. You also need to get Smite Good somehow, and two Vile feats. 2 general feats by 5th level is a significant investment.

You need to fill in the class name in the Class Skills section. Skills look fine, both in terms of skill list and 4+ points. That really hurts rogues who want in, but so it goes.

d8 hit die is pretty typical with 3/4 BAB. Good Ref and Will. This looks like a swordsage chassis, which is strange if full BAB gets you in fastest and you suggest lots of full BAB classes for entry.

Martial Maneuvers: it currently reads like you get one of [ Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, or White Raven] and one maneuver from Ninefold Damnation. If that's not your intent, change the 'and' to an 'or'.

Villainous Cackle activating on Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and Sudden Strike is really, really strong. Drop the desert wind boost to flank, attack with a strike, cackle. Every turn. Or use a maneuver to make your opponent flat-footed, again every turn. This goes against the design philosophy of ToB encouraging variety in combat. Make it only work on crits and smites, or throw it out altogether.

Villainous Focus is also quite strong. Get an Unholy weapon (+2 equivalent) or the evil equivalent of a Blessed weapon (+1 equivalent) or cast Unholy Weapon as a Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny or a Blackguard or... there are ways to make this up whenever you need it. And it's a stacking +1 to +5 to hit and damage. This more than makes up for the 3/4 BAB, and the damage is gravy. Possibly too strong.

Talents.
Death Attack is not great, but since it's effectively free whatever. Thematic. Fine.
Necrocarnum Power is a feat (or two feats) for the essentia plus slightly better than a feat for shaping any [necrocarnum] meld plus a little less than a feat for another bind/day without opening any chakra. I'd expect everyone to take this one.
Shield of Profanity: where is the Shield of Faith class feature? Better yet, just reprint it here. Death attack is from a core PrC, but Shield of Faith seems to be more obscure.
Vile Channeling opens up a lot of [Divine] feats. Again, will probably be taken.
Feats are nice, probably ok.
Bonus skirmish is faster than the scout gets it but I'm not too worried about that. You could make a kickin' archer with Travel Devotion, skirmish, and this option to move up your skirmish faster. Still less damage than a rogue though.
Villainous Smite... expect people to take Vile Attack instead.

No capstone?

A pure rogue can sneak in here after level 7, if he spends two feats on it. In exchange for his rogue talents, he gets martial maneuvers and full sneak attack and death attack and +5 to hit and damage and... at the loss of skill points. For a combat rogue, it's an easy choice. I'm not sure how to resolve this, but the class seems to be too strong in terms of +numbers. Throw out some of the +numbers, add more variety.

[Network]

• "Morality Is A Joke" may be changed too, but I have no precise idea in mind.
• I'd change "The Cold Depressing Truth" for "The Awful Truth". That's shorter, cooler, and it couples as a Galneryus' reference too.

The Galneryus reference would work only of you changed the name of one sub-ability to "You Just Believe In The Lie" (as "The Awful Truth" could refer to a lot of other things).

"But Who Are You When No-One's Watching?" is a nice name, so I don't recommend changing it. You can still switch it to 6th level (instead of "Morality Is A Joke") and add "You Just Believe In The Lie" as the 8th level sub-ability.

As you asked, I suppose you don't mind to change the ability names, so that's pretty much all I have to say.

[malonkey1]

PEACH of Villainous Adept. The name is kind of... it feels like it was pulled from a thesaurus. A lot of things are already taken by canon classes or well-loved homebrew, so things get tricky.

Yeah. Is Cackling Psychopath any better?

Entry is after level 5 assuming a full BAB class with Intimidate in-class. You also need to get Smite Good somehow, and two Vile feats. 2 general feats by 5th level is a significant investment.

Yeah, The idea was to give it a significant investment so as to offset the power somewhat. I may look at the requirements after the class features themselves are hammered out.

You need to fill in the class name in the Class Skills section. Skills look fine, both in terms of skill list and 4+ points. That really hurts rogues who want in, but so it goes.

Oops. Fixed.

d8 hit die is pretty typical with 3/4 BAB. Good Ref and Will. This looks like a swordsage chassis, which is strange if full BAB gets you in fastest and you suggest lots of full BAB classes for entry.

The idea was to slow down BAB in order to offset some of the abilities. Again, subject to change, pending finalization of class features.

Martial Maneuvers: it currently reads like you get one of [ Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, or White Raven] and one maneuver from Ninefold Damnation. If that's not your intent, change the 'and' to an 'or'.

Thanks. I musta missed that.

Villainous Cackle activating on Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and Sudden Strike is really, really strong. Drop the desert wind boost to flank, attack with a strike, cackle. Every turn. Or use a maneuver to make your opponent flat-footed, again every turn. This goes against the design philosophy of ToB encouraging variety in combat. Make it only work on crits and smites, or throw it out altogether.

Done. Now it's only on crits and smites.

Villainous Focus is also quite strong. Get an Unholy weapon (+2 equivalent) or the evil equivalent of a Blessed weapon (+1 equivalent) or cast Unholy Weapon as a Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny or a Blackguard or... there are ways to make this up whenever you need it. And it's a stacking +1 to +5 to hit and damage. This more than makes up for the 3/4 BAB, and the damage is gravy. Possibly too strong.

Gotcha, toned it WAAAAAY back. Now it's a free Weapon Focus with evil weapons.

Talents.
Death Attack is not great, but since it's effectively free whatever. Thematic. Fine.

Yeah, I felt I needed to add this for thematic's sake.

Necrocarnum Power is a feat (or two feats) for the essentia plus slightly better than a feat for shaping any [necrocarnum] meld plus a little less than a feat for another bind/day without opening any chakra. I'd expect everyone to take this one.

I raised the requirements on it severely, make it more of a specialty thing than a "no-brainer" pick.

Shield of Profanity: where is the Shield of Faith class feature? Better yet, just reprint it here. Death attack is from a core PrC, but Shield of Faith seems to be more obscure.

Sorry, meant "Divine Grace". Stupid brain.

Vile Channeling opens up a lot of [Divine] feats. Again, will probably be taken.

Not sure if I really wanted this in the class. Leaving it for now, but it's high on the possible cut list.

Feats are nice, probably ok.

I assume this is in reference to Vile Arcana. I made it a bit more appeling for Gishes, but I don't know if it's necessary, and will change it back if needed.

Bonus skirmish is faster than the scout gets it but I'm not too worried about that. You could make a kickin' archer with Travel Devotion, skirmish, and this option to move up your skirmish faster. Still less damage than a rogue though.

Yep. The "No AC improvement" portion I felt offset the accelerated damage, basically meaning you'd need to specialize for the damage component.

Villainous Smite... expect people to take Vile Attack instead

Yeah, but there are some who might have a Smiting build. I didn't want to tee them off.

No capstone?

Resolved.

A pure rogue can sneak in here after level 7, if he spends two feats on it. In exchange for his rogue talents, he gets martial maneuvers and full sneak attack and death attack and +5 to hit and damage and... at the loss of skill points. For a combat rogue, it's an easy choice. I'm not sure how to resolve this, but the class seems to be too strong in terms of +numbers. Throw out some of the +numbers, add more variety.

Slapped out +numbers, gave some more "abstract" benefits. I'm starting to like how this is shaping up. Please tell me if it needs more tweaking. I will look at your entry and PEACH in a little bit, so hang tight.

[ErrantX]

Got a little over a week folks, please get em done and maybe we'll get another entry or two to boot!

-X

[ErrantX]

Another reminder of the end of the contest coming up. I know it's a busy weekend, what with Doctor Who and Game of Thrones restarting as well as the season finale of the Walking Dead (look, I know you're my people ) so today and tomorrow, I'll be putting up a voting thread tomorrow night and starting the next contest soon after. Speculations or suggestions? Post em!

-X

[sirpercival]

The MMX contest (one spell wonders) was a lot of fun. The idea was, a class based around a particular spell, a la Swiftblade/Haste.

[Zelkon]

Hmm...What about Dragons? Or transformation. Have we done a transformation one yet?

[MoleMage]

Contest IX: It's Morphin' Time was transformation. Though that was so long ago I wasn't even on the forums I think...

[Network]

Hi everyone. I just posted the Unholy Crusader as a last-minute entry. What do you think of it?

[Morph Bark]

Another reminder of the end of the contest coming up. I know it's a busy weekend, what with Doctor Who and Game of Thrones restarting as well as the season finale of the Walking Dead (look, I know you're my people )

You made my smile, Errant.

This is unforgiveable.

()

[Aldurin]

Changed the name to Dread Blade since the original idea of adding a mechanic to feed off of sadness wasn't something I could come up with. Does an entry become disqualified if it lacks the sample encounter? I notice quite a few without them and if I have to then I can try to whip one up later tonight.

[Network]

Sad Amechra didn't complete the class yet, it was interesting. A couple of other entries will be disqualified too, so I think I have some chance to win, but as my class is only 5 levels long, and as it is at the bottom of the page, I have the bad feeling it will be mostly ignored. Technically the contest ended two minutes ago, can't wait to see the voting thread.

[Glimbur]

Changed the name to Dread Blade since the original idea of adding a mechanic to feed off of sadness wasn't something I could come up with. Does an entry become disqualified if it lacks the sample encounter? I notice quite a few without them and if I have to then I can try to whip one up later tonight.

This is too late to help, but it's good news. The sample encounter is not required.

[ErrantX]

Going through the classes right now, stay tuned.

EDIT: Voting thread up!

Also realized that I am hopeless with Roman Numerals, but here is the next contest as well.

-X

[sirpercival]

Weh-heh-heh-hellllll.... I did not expect that.

Now to brainstorm!

[Mephibosheth]

I like this topic! If only I'd waited to post my Faceless Man PrC!

By way of gauging interest, what would people think about something based on Siddhartha by Herman Hesse? Are people still reading that book? Or has it fallen out of popular culture completely? I'm thinking a class that requires VoP and is based on the samanas Hesse describes on pp. 11-12. Abilities would include feats of endurance (pain, hunger, exhaustion, etc.) and the ability to, through meditation, leave one's original body and enter into the bodies of other creatures and objects. Interesting or boring? Too obscure?