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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

    I have sucsessfuly applied tippyverse logic to vampires before. There was a small town up in the mountains that had no mascrade, it was just ruled by a small courty of vampires. They did everything they could to maximise the vampire / mortal ratio of the town to the point that they fead of animals unless you had premision from the prince and all learned coils of blood.

    It was a monistary of Ordu Dracul vampiers createing a haven away from mortal and immortal politics that they could develope thier coils without fear of death or mortal intervention.

    It worked out well. Town leaders and favored individuals became gouls and everyone was bloodbound to the leading vampires. The humans farmed and sustained themselves, and the vampires protected them and developed thier powers.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    I have sucsessfuly applied tippyverse logic to vampires before. There was a small town up in the mountains that had no mascrade, it was just ruled by a small courty of vampires. They did everything they could to maximise the vampire / mortal ratio of the town to the point that they fead of animals unless you had premision from the prince and all learned coils of blood.

    It was a monistary of Ordu Dracul vampiers createing a haven away from mortal and immortal politics that they could develope thier coils without fear of death or mortal intervention.

    It worked out well. Town leaders and favored individuals became gouls and everyone was bloodbound to the leading vampires. The humans farmed and sustained themselves, and the vampires protected them and developed thier powers.
    Which works for a small community, and has a very horror-movie feel to it that's entirely appropriate to the WoD. Trying to apply it to the entire Kindred society, though, and claiming the only reason they don't is because they're "shortsighted" is disingenous. To the Ordo, being shortsighted would be sharin knowledge of the Coils with any non-Ordo member, because they weren't worthy of the secrets.

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    The logic isn't just that they aren't worthy, but the taint means you are inherently disinclined to like them period, and they may stab you in the back latter anyway, so why help them.

    The idea of vampires forming a cross promotional government is contrary to thier goals (ie being more and more powerful)

    the court exists becuse the prince is powerful and HE benifits from it. Nobody else matters. Everything vampires do is founded in selfish wants, needs, and disires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Or cause, y'know, they're incredibly jealous of their secrets and don't actually give two pints about other non-Ordo vampires or mortals? Plus, there's no such thing as a 'vampire government'. Treating the WoD like a D&D setting that must inevitably end in Tippyverse will only lead to pain, as will any approach where you consider the rules to be in-game laws that the in-game population will exploit if at all possible.
    ...You know, I hate the Tippyverse, and I hate the sort of bizarre twisting of RAI that makes it a thing. This is not a case of the Tippyverse. This is a case of the supposedly logical, "scientific" faction of the game inexplicably refusing to release information that could keep their entire species, themselves included, from being exterminated. It's not high level knowledge. It doesn't give other vampires any power over them. It might lead to a higher proportion of elder vampires eight hundred years down the road, but that isn't going to matter, because the Masquerade isn't going to hold that long. The more vampires who know the first two tiers of the Coil of Blood, the less likely some idiot is to blow the Masquerade on accident, and the less likely humanity is to start a pogrom against all vampires once it ends (as it inevitably will, because we have cameras everywhere now).

    It's not about being altruistic towards one's fellow vampires. It's just common sense; the hunter who killed the stupid neonate who gorged herself on the hunter's sister will come for the Ordo members eventually, and he's probably bringing friends. Friends that can walk around during daylight and set vampires on fire while they sleep. If only there was some way they could have taught that new vampire to control her hunger (detailed on page 149 of the Vampire: the Requiem corebook), this wouldn't have happened.

    Also, what do you call a system in which all members of a society must submit themselves to a higher authority that has the power to punish infractions (with capital punishment if need be) against a code of law or reward exemplary service, maintains a police force for that purpose, assigns specific members of the society places within it, and declares certain places demilitarized zones? That's a government, I'd say. A dysfunctional one, to be certain, I'm not arguing that. But it governs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    The logic isn't just that they aren't worthy, but the taint means you are inherently disinclined to like them period, and they may stab you in the back latter anyway, so why help them.

    The idea of vampires forming a cross promotional government is contrary to thier goals (ie being more and more powerful)

    the court exists becuse the prince is powerful and HE benifits from it. Nobody else matters. Everything vampires do is founded in selfish wants, needs, and disires.
    That is entirely irrelevant to what I'm saying. Vampires in V:tR are described as having a number of emotional issues, but none of those problems are actually described as being worse (for the average non-draugr vampire) than a moderate to severe case of antisocial personality disorder is in real life. Most sociopaths understand that helping others is a net gain when doing so protects one's own interests, and most sociopaths are interested in remaining alive (an interest they share with most vampires). The local Prince doesn't need to care about anyone else to realize that when vampires need less blood, and that blood can come from animals rather than people, there is a significantly smaller chance that he will be killed in his sleep at some point.
    Last edited by CN the Logos; 2011-08-19 at 04:08 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Well as already pointed out most Vampires can feed off animals already. In fact it is the youngest vampires, the ones most likely to screw up that can all feed off animals.
    All of which is fairly irrevelent. Even In OWoD where there was a unified world Vampire organization where younger vampires could feed on animals they never introduced this rule because it was unenforcabale. Any group trying to enforce such a unpopular banket ban would be overthrown overnight. Probably not violently but local Princes would simply remove their cities from the organization before they were removed themselves. In the cut throat world of Vampire politics making such a unpopular decision would be the equivalent of offering your opponents your throat and a knife.
    This is before we even get into how exactly vampires would feed off animals. Most Vampires live in cities, where the overwhelmingly most common of prey is humans. Not to mention most vampires would have no idea exactly how to hunt animals and because they freak animals out are going to be lousy at it anyway.
    Thats before we get in to the fact that the Ordo are not going to just hand over one of their greatest secrets when it is one of their advantages over the other groups.
    Is animal blood still taste disgusting to Vampires in Requiem ?
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    The bit you're missing, Logos, is that the Ordo Dracul doesn't treat the Coils as nifty powers or as knowledge to be kept from the unworthy - it treats them as the method by which any given vampire can transcend their state, shed the weakness of the Requiem and become something with all of the power and none of the drawbacks. Do you really think that kind of knowledge is something they want to hand out freely, especially to people that will probably end up as their enemies? No, it isn't, especially since sharing too freely may lead to one or more of the other covenants developing the power on their own and rendering the Ordo irrelevant - a fate that will rapidly lead to their destruction. Getting further, animals can be hard to get a hold of, are difficult to feed on consistently, taste like garbage, barely provide nutrition and can get humans on your ass anyway, with groups like PETA or concerned pet owners.

    Finally, the Masquerade is being maintained by more than just vampires. Hunter orgs maintain it as well, and mages and lupines also have a distinct interest in keeping the communal secret that is Oh Crap Monsters. The cameras thing even has a native solution in their ability to blow Willpower to negate it! The Masquerade is difficult these days, yes, but not impossible.


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    Also, in Requiem (and to a lesser extent, Masquerade), Vampires are largely sedentary and selfish creatures. Ruling the world and advancing the global cause of Vampire-kind just isn't a priority for 90% of the undead. Rather, the take a hint from Gogol Bordello by thinking locally and telling globally to go screw itself.

    Your average Ordo Dracul sect isn't trying to conquer the world, they're trying to carve out their own little chunk and rule it with an iron fist.
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    The bit you're missing, Logos, is that the Ordo Dracul doesn't treat the Coils as nifty powers or as knowledge to be kept from the unworthy - it treats them as the method by which any given vampire can transcend their state, shed the weakness of the Requiem and become something with all of the power and none of the drawbacks.
    In a way, they're right to not look at it as any ordinary Discipline. For one, they can take the different Coils in any order they wish; two, they can buy their Coils over five, no matter their Blood Potency.

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    Hm, I seem to have accidentally started something. I apologize for my grievous error(s). None of what any of you have said has convinced me, at all, to consider Requiem anything more than a Monster Manual equivalent focused on vampires, however.

    I knew that young vampires could already eat animals. For all of what, a hundred years, assuming they don't want to consciously strive for more power? Eventually, people become the only option, and that's detrimental to every vampire on the planet. That's a century that every vampire should spend learning how to look as friendly as possible. I didn't find any fluff on animal blood not tasting good, though I know it's less nutritious.

    How long does the Willpower spent to appear in photos/mirrors continue to work? I know you don't get a supernatural warning that you're passing hidden cameras, so this Masquerade breach waiting to happen is only not a problem as long as every Kindred remembers and is able to spend a point of Willpower every time they go out in public. I've also heard that photos and video footage will revert to blurriness after the spent Willpower wears off, though I can't find that bit.

    Anyway, debating the fragility or lack thereof of the Masquerade is pointless; White Wolf themselves point out all the ways things could come crashing down in both the core book and Mirrors. My original point, lost in all this, was that Vampire: the Masquerade, following Anne Rice, set the stage for later, "friendlier" depictions of vampires by presenting vampires as protagonist material who could avoid being monstrous or were monstrous in a "cool" way. Compared to most classical depictions of vampires, the protagonists of both Vampire games are more powerful and have fewer weaknesses,* and Requiem's are far more capable of peaceful coexistence with ordinary humans even before the Coil of Blood comes into it.

    The fact that vampires in V:tR are too busy infighting to take advantage of this fact doesn't move me to respect them more as antiheroes, it just gives me the impression they're too dumb to live. Great NPCs and antagonists for Geist chronicles, but I wouldn't want to run a game focused on them.

    I'm not going to respond to this line of discussion anymore. I've clarified my positions now. I'm pretty sure continuing to debate back and forth past this point with neither side giving ground would lead to people getting angry for no good reason, and I don't want an infraction for getting the rest of the thread riled up.



    *Ironically, the most obvious and exploitable weakness of Vampire vampires, sunlight, isn't a major weakness in the vast majority of vampire myths. Generally, when it's mentioned at all, it's just to say that say that they don't like it. None of the major 19th century vampires that influenced our modern conception of vampires (Varney, Ruthven, Carmilla, Dracula) burned in sunlight, although Carmilla seems to get weaker in it, and Dracula can't use Disciplines shapeshift during daylight hours. This means that if I'm a hunter, and I do my research on what I'm hunting, I'm totally going to dismiss the second easiest way to kill a WW vampire, unless the Storyteller rules the World of Darkness has alternate vampire legends or I metagame. I find this amusing.

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Where did the idea that sunlight kills vampires come from?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter190 View Post
    Where did the idea that sunlight kills vampires come from?
    Nosferatu, a film from roundabouts the 1930's if memory serves.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Nosferatu, a film from roundabouts the 1930's if memory serves.
    1922 (I'd thought 1927 before I double-checked, so we were both wrong ). That was the first vampire burning in sunlight. Now the Malaysian penanggalan did die in sunlight if it was out of its body at the time, but it's a head and entrails that crawls out of its body to drink the blood of infant children and pregnant women. Not what most people think of when they think vampire, although still awesome (and playable in V:tR too, if you have Wicked Dead).

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    I've DM'd both new and old Vmnpire and Werewolf: the Forsaken. I've also played in Geist as a player. WoD is my game of choice, love it a great deal.

    Currently I'm only Storytelling a game of Vampire: the Requiem, but I'm considering maybe delving in either Werewolf the Apocalypse a bit or maybe one of the Mage games in a few months.

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    [QUOTE=CN the Logos;11683658
    *Ironically, the most obvious and exploitable weakness of [I]Vampire[/I] vampires, sunlight, isn't a major weakness in the vast majority of vampire myths. Generally, when it's mentioned at all, it's just to say that say that they don't like it. None of the major 19th century vampires that influenced our modern conception of vampires (Varney, Ruthven, Carmilla, Dracula) burned in sunlight, although Carmilla seems to get weaker in it, and Dracula can't use Disciplines shapeshift during daylight hours. /QUOTE]

    Dracula can also be wounded and killed by ordinary weapons when around in daylight. In london he retreats because one of the heroes stabs him in the thigh when he's out and about in daylight
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    So, a thought occurs to me - is diablerie an instinctive thing?

    One of the players wanted his character to diablerize his sire, and I told him that, seeing how his character was a fledgling, he wouldn't necessarily know about diablerie - in fact, he received no formal instruction from his sire, so he's not actually even heard of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    So, a thought occurs to me - is diablerie an instinctive thing?

    One of the players wanted his character to diablerize his sire, and I told him that, seeing how his character was a fledgling, he wouldn't necessarily know about diablerie - in fact, he received no formal instruction from his sire, so he's not actually even heard of it.
    Vic, I take it?

    I think diablerie is an accidental thing. You start drinking blood and before you know it, you're drinking more than blood, and it tastes sublime and horrendously wrong at the same time, and you just can't help yourself. And by the time you're done, you're stronger and more powerful and mortals look a little more like cattle than people.

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    The prohibition of diablerie is one of the fundamental vampiric Traditions, so it probably makes sense it's instinctive to a degree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Vic, I take it?
    You are correct, sir, though all three of the PCs present had a point where they wanted to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    You start drinking blood and before you know it, you're drinking more than blood, and it tastes sublime and horrendously wrong at the same time, and you just can't help yourself. And by the time you're done, you're stronger and more powerful and mortals look a little more like cattle than people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    The prohibition of diablerie is one of the fundamental vampiric Traditions, so it probably makes sense it's instinctive to a degree.
    Eh, I don't know - for one thing, the Beast is all instinct, but being in Frenzy actually penalizes your roll to diablerize someone.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-08-21 at 03:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    You are correct, sir, though all three of the PCs present had a point where they wanted to do so.
    Huh. Can't say my opinion of them didn't just descend a couple of notches.

    Eh, I don't know - for one thing, the Beast is all instinct, but being in Frenzy actually penalizes your roll to diablerize someone.
    If you see diablerie as a sort of ritual, something that happens because the vampire wills it so, then it makes sense that the Beast penalises it, because it requires concentration and discipline. It'd also make diablerie not instinctive at all, and more of a secret technique that must be taught. That makes no sense, though, because you'd think that the best way to prevent it from happening would be to prevent new childer from finding out about it, rather than telling them it's forbidden.

    If you see diablerie as an instinctive thing, it still makes sense that the Beast penalises the roll because it prevents the vampire from actually eating the soul itself. The Beast wants blood, and when the vampire's dry, it wants you to get more blood elsewhere, or maybe just tear someone to pieces. It doesn't have time for that delicate ecstasy you want to pursue. It's like being starving and trying to savour fine caviar. The starving hunger within you doesn't want you to waste time on the small fish eggs. It wants you to go and eat that juicy beef on the other room.

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    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Huh. Can't say my opinion of them didn't just descend a couple of notches.
    Agreed - I blame Vampire: the Masquerade.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-08-21 at 04:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Agreed - I blame Vampire: the Masquerade.
    Wasn't it a terrible thing also back then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Wasn't it a terrible thing also back then?
    It was terrible if you got caught doing it.

    Remember, among other things, you could just drop Humanity altogether and assume a morality system that diablerie doesn't affect. In addition, Generation (the closest equivalent to Blood Potency) could only be increased via diablerie, so if you wanted access to sweet, sweet elder Disciplines (which were actually statted out in oWoD), then you pretty much had to resort to soul-sucking. Third, a torpid vampire maintains his Generation in oWoD, so if you find a sleeping elder, you can practically guarantee a generation increase. Fourth, some organizations, like the Sabbat and the Assamites, weren't just tolerant of diablerie, but encouraged it. Fifth, members of the Camarilla were often just as prone to it - the rule against it just made them endeavor to not get caught, or do so against "acceptable targets."
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-08-21 at 04:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    It was terrible if you got caught doing it.

    Remember, among other things, you could just drop Humanity altogether and assume a morality system that diablerie doesn't affect. In addition, Generation (the closest equivalent to Blood Potency) could only be increased via diablerie, so if you wanted access to sweet, sweet elder Disciplines (which were actually statted out in oWoD), then you pretty much had to resort to soul-sucking. Third, a torpid vampire maintains his Generation in oWoD, so if you find a sleeping elder, you can practically guarantee a generation increase. Fourth, some organizations, like the Sabbat and the Assamites, weren't just tolerant of diablerie, but encouraged it. Fifth, members of the Camarilla were often just as prone to it - the rule against it just made them endeavor to not get caught, or do so against "acceptable targets."
    Oh, right. Man, I've let a lot of oWoD slip out of my mind.

    Yeah, now I remember why I wasn't keen on V:tM back in the day. Ah, well. I guess you should ask your players and tell them of all the other ways they have to increase Blood Potency and see if they still want to diablerise vamps afterwards.

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    Am I the only one that doesn't miss alternate morality systems at all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox Box Socks View Post
    Am I the only one that doesn't miss alternate morality systems at all?
    *points to the Code in H:tV* they're not gone.

    I'm sure there are others who feel the way you do. (personally, I never played oWoD, no groups I knew played it)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox Box Socks View Post
    Am I the only one that doesn't miss alternate morality systems at all?
    I liked the idea personally
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2011-08-21 at 08:04 PM.
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    I've found that while the ability to modify the Code is useful, it isn't really as useful as it looks. As a Storyteller, when a player modifies his code so that, say, murder doesn't count in exchange for having to kill all Vamipres on sight, words cannot describe how tempting it is to have a friend or ally get Embraced, or, even better, set up a situation where it's more advantageous to leave the monsters alive than it is to kill them. After all, having to kill all Werewolves means having to knock off the friendly neighborhood Forsaken pack that's actually doing its job. Refusing to negotiate with Changelings means that when the True Fae come knocking, the Summer Court isn't there to back your play. Making it be a sin to not murder a Mage means that when the Mage has vital information that he's willing to trade with for life, when the chips are down, you're probably not going to hear it.

    Granted, you could do the same thing with alternate morality systems, but I found them to be less narrative device and more "get out of moral responsibility free" cards.
    Last edited by Fox Box Socks; 2011-08-21 at 07:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Heroes of Horror is only 1.8 pounds. By comparison, the DMG is a hefty 2.6 pounds, making it by far the more powerful book.

  28. - Top - End - #238
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

    Isn't that supposed to be the way it is though? In exchange for not having the drawbacks of the standard morality system the Code gives you a new set of equally severe drawbacks but they fit your character concept better.

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles

    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

    You also take social penalties, so the drawbacks are in fact objectively worse.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    ganiseville GA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

    That is part of the point.

    It's world of darkness. It turns you into a monster. He who stares into the abyss and all.

    Being a hunter is signing up for a quick death or a slow decent into being a monser oneself, ether by slowly loseing your sanity or by compermiseing your very humanity so you are little more than a monster that hunts monsters.

    Your best bet is to do as much good as posible and before you go completely off the deep end eat your own gun. The problem lies in that the further you go the more you forget the reason you started, much less the person you used to be. It starts slowly, but what was once a quest to protect the inocent and needed has turned into a bloody endless night of vengence for friends lost and before long even that is forgoten, beaten down under the relentless HATE that you have embraced in your soul to keep you from going completely insane.

    By this time you are to far gone to realize that you already have.

    I love hunter for the Call of Cathulu like aspect of it. Your players will go crazy, but every step will feel like it was thier own choice, not fate. Every step down that slippery dark slope will be thiers to make. It makes it all the more powerful when a young group of hunters starts to hunt them as the monsters they are and the whole cycle starts anew.

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