General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

[Morty]

I have a question regarding Mage: the Awakening. Namely, how does it approach "hedge wizards", as in mortals who perform some limited magic? I know there're various rituals scattered around the books, mostly in Hunter: the Vigil material, but I'm interested in Mage's take on it.

[Yuki Akuma]

Mage doesn't have a take on it.

Most "hedge wizard" stuff is in Second Sight.

[Morty]

Hm, that's surprising. Mage: the Ascension had mention - if not rules - for Thaumaturges who performed limited magic. Oh, well. I don't like Mage: the Awakening's fluff anyway. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Yuki Akuma]

Mage: the Awakening is focused entirely on Awakened magic. The magic hedge wizards, psychics and other supernatural creatures do is a part of the Lie and doesn't interest them at all.

[Wings of Peace]

Hm, that's surprising. Mage: the Ascension had mention - if not rules - for Thaumaturges who performed limited magic. Oh, well. I don't like Mage: the Awakening's fluff anyway. Thanks for clearing it up.

Pretty much what Yuki's said. Awakened Magic is it's own style of Magic and to the Awakened it's the correct style of magic. Everyone else is essentially just a child in their father's clothes pretending they're grownups (as far as their magic is concerned anyways).

[TheCountAlucard]

So, a certain event has come to pass in my nWoD game.

Namely, the penniless Nossie PC has decided to make the most of an accidental slaying he committed during a hunger frenzy, and use the victim's credit cards for fraudulent purposes to purchase a generator for his warehouse haven.

The question that occurs, then, is "How likely is it he'll get caught?"

Without delving too deeply into how the RL crime is done, which would be a no-no here on the forums, would his character realistically be able to get away with it? On the one hand, he DID ensure nobody will find the body, ever... but on the other hand, now that I've let him buy a generator, he wants to buy a battle-ready claymore with it.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

So, a certain event has come to pass in my nWoD game.

Namely, the penniless Nossie PC has decided to make the most of an accidental slaying he committed during a hunger frenzy, and use the victim's credit cards for fraudulent purposes to purchase a generator for his warehouse haven.

The question that occurs, then, is "How likely is it he'll get caught?"

Without delving too deeply into how the RL crime is done, which would be a no-no here on the forums, would his character realistically be able to get away with it? On the one hand, he DID ensure nobody will find the body, ever... but on the other hand, now that I've let him buy a generator, he wants to buy a battle-ready claymore with it.

That depends. Is he buying these items in-person? If so, you can stop him easily by simply having the clerk check the signature on the back of the card and see that it isn't signed, and then ask for ID, and then confiscate the card when he isn't able to produce matching ID.

If he's buying things online, you could have the credit card company freeze the accounts due to suspicions of fraudulent activity, namely buying a generator and attempting to buy a claymore, which is likely illegal in itself, even without the credit card theft. His stolen assets are frozen, and, if you're feeling vengeful, the company can launch an investigation and contact local law enforcement, reporting the card stolen on behalf of the victim. Then it's up to how hard he tries to keep using the card as to whether or not he'll be caught.

[Chambers]

Picked up V:tR today in preparation to run a Chronicle in about two months or so. I've played a lot of oWoD (Hunter, Vampire, Wraith, and a game of Werewolf) but I haven't done much with the new books. So far I have the Core book and the V:tR book, as well as the Nosferatu book (one of the players wants to play one).

It's been years since either the players or I have played oWoD, so I'm not too worried about people getting upset about the rules ("This wasn't how we did it in the old edition!", etc), rather I'm more curious about what people think are the major rule differences in the two editions?

For more context, the chronicle will be set in 1920's Chicago. The Prince and other offices will be modeled off the structure of the Mob (mostly replacing title names), with a heavy Ventrue presence. Are there any choice resources/books that you'd recommend to prep for this chronicle, either fiction or non-fiction?

[TheCountAlucard]

Is he buying these items in-person?

Nope, he's doing it online.

If he's buying things online, you could have the credit card company freeze the accounts due to suspicions of fraudulent activity, namely buying a generator and attempting to buy a claymore, which is likely illegal in itself, even without the credit card theft.

True... then again, I'm seeing certain websites out there that supposedly sell genuine, battle-ready swords, albeit for exorbitant prices...

It's been years since either the players or I have played oWoD, so I'm not too worried about people getting upset about the rules ("This wasn't how we did it in the old edition!", etc), rather I'm more curious about what people think are the major rule differences in the two editions?

The rule differences are actually more than tolerable, though more than a few of them are significant enough to cause fluff changes that are irreconcilable with oWoD, much of which was taken for granted anyway, and as such, it's helpful that it's been so long since you've played V:tM.

For example, Kindred Vitae is different. It's addictive now, and not just to junkie ghouls - even Kindred are at risk when consuming it. The blood bond still occurs, though, but oWoD veterans should keep in mind that Kindred view consuming one anothers' Vitae is highly frowned-upon.

Both the concepts of mass-Embracing and mass-ghouling have become vastly more difficult, because one must feed ghouls a point of Willpower in addition to a point of Vitae, and Kindred even moreso, with a dot of Willpower required. As such, were there a Sabbat, its most potent tactics would be utterly crippling to itself.

Other shenanigans my group used have likewise been ruled out - now a Kindred's Vitae only holds onto its power for a few seconds outside the vampire's system; as such, getting your Vitae into someone's system is a lot less subtle...

Oh, and ghouls no longer replace their own blood with the regnant's Vitae - their body mystically processes the dark powers inherent to the Blood and internalizes it, rather than necessitating chugging a quart of orange juice and having a sugar cookie or two if you plan to activate Celerity for a turn...

Diablerie is now no longer as necessary for power, for a bunch of reasons, and considering that it's addictive now, Kindred of all kinds are much more willing to ACTUALLY condemn it than they were in oWoD.

The changes to torpor and Blood Potency (nWoD's Generation-equivalent) likewise wreak a number of changes to expectations, but I think you've long since caught my drift by now...

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Nope, he's doing it online.

The hold on the account would still work for flagging him to the authorities, then, assuming that the guy hadn't used the card to make large-scale purchases like a generator ($1700) or a broadsword ($300-$500).

True... then again, I'm seeing certain websites out there that supposedly sell genuine, battle-ready swords, albeit for exorbitant prices...

I can find those websites, too. Go into the shop sections, and there should be a note rattling off a list of states in the USA where they can't ship. I live in Massachusetts, and I can't get my hands on one of those things, because they're illegal here. They may be perfectly legal elsewhere, but that doesn't help me. Same goes for your player. If the sword is illegal where he is, he needs to find another way of getting it, and a stolen credit card won't help much on the black market.

[TheCountAlucard]

If the sword is illegal where he is, he needs to find another way of getting it, and a stolen credit card won't help much on the black market.

Checking now, it IS legal to own one where our game is set, though it IS illegal to conceal one.

How one goes about concealing such a sword is another matter entirely.

Of course, openly carrying a huge sword like that has a way of causing its own trouble... right up until he learns Obfuscate 1, anyway.

[Selrahc]

Generators aren't all that cheap. Claymores probably aren't either. Suspicious activity will cause a credit card to be frozen. If the credit card limit isn't that high, the card could be maxed out after the generator.

Remember to get the Nossie to do some Computer+Wits rolls to find good quality weapons to purchase. Buying a Claymore sight unseen is probably quite likely to get you something more ornamental than functional, or just outright bad.

[Wings of Peace]

Checking now, it IS legal to own one where our game is set, though it IS illegal to conceal one.

How one goes about concealing such a sword is another matter entirely.

Of course, openly carrying a huge sword like that has a way of causing its own trouble... right up until he learns Obfuscate 1, anyway.

Without delving into things it depends on how he goes about his business. Even in person for example I've bought a hundred dollars worth of stuff at some stores (home depot) and not been carded while others have carded me for ten dollars.

If he's having the things delivered to his house however I would say he doesn't get away with it but he doesn't get caught immediately either. Any good crime scene investigator would notice a missing wallet and because it's a (presumably) vicious murder they'll probably try and do a thorough inspection which will eventually lead to them realizing a ghost is making purchases. This will all take time at the end of which I'd say it depends on whether the place he is having things delivered is under his name or not.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you buy something expensive and send it to an adress not normaly used by the owner the credit card company will follow a fairly standard set of procedures.

First they will call the card holder and ask him if the purchase is valid (normaly within 24 hours). If they cannot contact him they will go to his listed adress and see if he is there.

If they cannot contact him then or find anything suspicious, they will bock the order and refuse payment on the order. This may or may not be in time to prevent the order of the first item from shiping, but the sword should be automaticly rejected as a bad card. If the order went through anyway, and likely even if it didn't, they will investigate by sending people (thier's and law inforcement's) to the shipping adress to see who ordered the purchase.

If they find you they will do thier level best to pin you to a wall and ruin you. Credit card companies are all VERY harsh on anyone who steals from them. It feels like the mob more than a company, and in world of darkness it would be worse. If the cops can't/won't do anything, expect threatining phonecalls and personal meetings with large intimidateing individuals trying to force you to confess to the cops. IRL they probobly won't push into breaking the law and your legs. In world of darkness I wouldn't make that so sure.

Meanwhile the cops will be very very interested in how someone got a missing person's card, and have thier own questions.

[Morty]

It's been years since either the players or I have played oWoD, so I'm not too worried about people getting upset about the rules ("This wasn't how we did it in the old edition!", etc), rather I'm more curious about what people think are the major rule differences in the two editions?

Apart from what The Count Alucard said, I have something to add, namely that the overall power level is lower because the vampires' innate properties and Disciplines are weaker.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also Celarity is no longer gamebreaking. Read many of the powers as many of them have the same names and very difrent mechanics.

[Chambers]

Thanks for the tips.

[TheCountAlucard]

Remember to get the Nossie to do some Computer+Wits rolls to find good quality weapons to purchase. Buying a Claymore sight unseen is probably quite likely to get you something more ornamental than functional, or just outright bad.

(nodnod) 'kay.

Any good crime scene investigator would notice a missing wallet and because it's a (presumably) vicious murder they'll probably try and do a thorough inspection which will eventually lead to them realizing a ghost is making purchases.

Again, he got some assistance in making the body disappear. Suffice it to say that no one will ever find it.

...[credit card company procedures]...

Thanks!

Meanwhile the cops will be very very interested in how someone got a missing person's card, and have thier own questions.

This, on the other hand, may well be an issue.

Plus, technically, said PC's already gotten into trouble with the law once before.

Apart from what The Count Alucard said, I have something to add, namely that the overall power level is lower because the vampires' innate properties and Disciplines are weaker.

The difference between Vigor and Potence, Celerity and Celerity, and Resilience and Fortitude, for instance, is pretty staggering. Of course, all three just plain needed to be reworked to be usable in this game system.

(For instance, oWoD Potence gave its rating in automatic successes to all Strength-based rolls, all the time, for free. That wouldn't fly in nWoD, because in nWoD's combat system, that would essentially mean, "Win all close combat forever.")

Also Celerity is no longer gamebreaking. Read many of the powers as many of them have the same names and very different mechanics.

True, but I find it somewhat-questionable as to whether Celerity's worth it now - you boost your Defense by your Celerity for one turn for a Vitae. By contrast, with Vigor you boost your Strength by your Vigor for one scene for a Vitae. Assuming both Kindred have, say, three dots in their respective Disciplines, that means that they effectively cancel each other out, as far as changing the odds of Vigor Bob successfully hitting Celerity Steve goes... but where Celerity Steve has to spend another Vitae to keep it going next turn, Bob's free to spend his Vitae on other things... like boosting his Strength by another two for a turn, raising the likelihood of hitting.

On the other hand, Celerity also multiplies your foot speed, allowing you to run away more effectively... but Vigor adds to your capacity to run and jump, and lets you throw things as well.

Eh, I dunno - I'm not exactly a number-cruncher here... I just suspect that now Celerity might be overpriced.

[Mr.Bookworm]

(nodnod) 'kay.

I really wouldn't do that, because it serves no other purpose than screwing over the player if he fails, and also just adds rolling where you really shouldn't need it. You also shouldn't need to roll to find something that mundane. It's uncommon, sure, but thirty minutes with Google and checking out the options should find you what you want.

Eh, I dunno - I'm not exactly a number-cruncher here... I just suspect that now Celerity might be overpriced.

I think they might have overreacted a bit from the oWoD, where Celerity made you a god. OTOH, drastic speed-increasing does seem to be valued as costly in the system (look at the Mage spell Burst of Speed, where it's 1 Mana a turn), and giving you the benefits for a scene would probably be too good.

[The Glyphstone]

So, I'm thinking of making a knife-specialist, focused specifically on throwing if possible. Are there any Throwing-specific fighting styles or good ideas in general for a high-Dex, low-Str (4/2 likely) character?

[TheCountAlucard]

I think they might have overreacted a bit from the oWoD, where Celerity made you a god.

Agreed.

OTOH, drastic speed-increasing does seem to be valued as costly in the system (look at the Mage spell Burst of Speed, where it's 1 Mana a turn)...

While that's true, I would imagine that White Wolf probably balanced* that cost against Celerity, considering they were supposedly working on all three game-lines at the same time...

and giving you the benefits for a scene would probably be too good.

Dunno, still kind of on the fence about this. You're probably right, though.

Combat-wise, Celerity gets canceled out by Vigor, but Vigor lasts the entire scene where Celerity will leave your veins dry in half a minute.

I'll admit that it is very useful in getting away, but the second Celerity Steve stops using it to aid in his escape attempts, Vigor Bob actually gains the advantage.

Mechanics ahead!

Spoiler

Show

Looking at the Foot Chase rules, let's say both people have an ordinary Speed of 9. Vigor Bob's Speed is pumped to 12 from his Vigor 3, where Celerity Steve's Speed is 27 on every turn Celerity is active, and 9 otherwise.

It's a contested Stamina + Athletics roll - again, let's assume even dice pools at the start - and note that every 3 one contestant has in Speed over the other gives him a +1 to his roll. This means that when Celerity Steve ISN'T using Celerity, Vigor Bob gets a +1 to his roll, and that when he IS, Celerity Steve gets a +5 advantage.

To successfully escape Vigor Bob, Celerity Steve needs to achieve Vigor Bob's Speed in successes, without Vigor Bob's successes on the roll outweighing his own.

Assuming two dots in Stamina and Athletics each, this gives Celerity Steve a dice pool of nine on every turn he uses Celerity, and Vigor Bob a dice pool of four, but on a turn in which he doesn't, his dice pool is down to four, and Vigor Bob's is up to five. Celerity Steve is most likely going to get away in just a few turns, but only if he uses Celerity the whole time. He won't be out of blood, but Vigor Bob's only spent one to stay a threat for the whole foot chase.

So, I'm thinking of making a knife-specialist, focused specifically on throwing if possible. Are there any Throwing-specific fighting styles or good ideas in general for a high-Dex, low-Str (4/2 likely) character?

What game is this for? Ordinary mortals? Hunter?




*Balance? When discussing Mage? Crazy, I know!

[The Glyphstone]

Lost, actually. He's going to be a Dual-kith Larcenist/Gameplayer, a con man, and cardshark, but I wanted to give him some combat utility and figured throwing knives would be best thematically.

[Chambers]

Interesting. I'll probably house rule Celerity to be for the whole scene then. Since it's not granting extra actions anymore it shouldn't be much of a worry.

Any other odd bits of the new rules that could do with a house rule or two?

[Mr.Bookworm]

So, I'm thinking of making a knife-specialist, focused specifically on throwing if possible. Are there any Throwing-specific fighting styles or good ideas in general for a high-Dex, low-Str (4/2 likely) character?

Don't think there are any specific Fighting Styles for throwing knives, but Spetsnaz Knife Fighting from Armory is good. All four levels will let you substitute Weaponry for Composure in Initiative, make an attack every other turn that reduces the enemy's Defense by 1, give your knife AP 1, reduce called shot penalties by 1, and at the cap, make two attacks in one turn for a cost of -1 Defense.

You could maybe talk to your DM and homebrew something, though.

Interesting. I'll probably house rule Celerity to be for the whole scene then. Since it's not granting extra actions anymore it shouldn't be much of a worry.

I still think that's too good, though. Even at, say, 3 dots, that still gives you a hefty boost to Initiative, gives you pretty decent odds at dodging gunfire against an average opponent (say, Dexterity 2+Firearms 2+pistol for a dice pool of 6), and makes you run around like a rabbit on crack.

[SurlySeraph]

So, I'm thinking of making a knife-specialist, focused specifically on throwing if possible. Are there any Throwing-specific fighting styles or good ideas in general for a high-Dex, low-Str (4/2 likely) character?

Shurikenjutsu, in Armory Reloaded, which allows knives. It gets multiattacks at the fourth dot, and the earlier dots are also pretty handy.

[Drakefall]

So, I'm thinking of making a knife-specialist, focused specifically on throwing if possible. Are there any Throwing-specific fighting styles or good ideas in general for a high-Dex, low-Str (4/2 likely) character?

Armory Reloaded has Fighting Style: Shurikenjutsu (Thrown Blade and Dart), which is pretty much exactly what you want.

EDIT: Ninja'd. On a ninjaesque fighting style no less!

[Morty]

I still think that's too good, though. Even at, say, 3 dots, that still gives you a hefty boost to Initiative, gives you pretty decent odds at dodging gunfire against an average opponent (say, Dexterity 2+Firearms 2+pistol for a dice pool of 6), and makes you run around like a rabbit on crack.

I agree. Celerity might be somewhat not worth it as it is - I don't consider myself rules-savvy enough to judge - but making it last a scene would be too good. Raising your Defense against bullets is a big deal.

[Fouredged Sword]

Maybe blood potency in rounds? Dots in Celearity rounds?

There must be a middle ground that we can agree is nither not worth the cost or to powerful.

[Fox Box Socks]

The question that occurs, then, is "How likely is it he'll get caught?"

Really, really likely.

When a person goes missing, one of the first things the police do is look at credit card records so they can nail down a timeline. The purchase of a generator is an enormous red flag, so once this person is reported missing, literally the fist action the police will take is sending a pair of officers to investigate wherever it was the generator was supposed to be delivered to. If he was dumb enough to have it shipped to his haven, they're going to catch him while he's asleep.

[The Glyphstone]

Armory Reloaded has Fighting Style: Shurikenjutsu (Thrown Blade and Dart), which is pretty much exactly what you want.

EDIT: Ninja'd. On a ninjaesque fighting style no less!

Sad...A:R isn't an allowed source/unsanctioned. (I might as well state up-front that the character is for a sanctioned Mind's Eye Society venue, so I have to adhere to allowed sources from the addendum. No DM negotations or homebrew possible).

I might look into Spetznaz Knife Fighting or Two-Weapon Fighting as a substitute, though SNF is nerfed to effectively "make two attack rolls, pick the better one" instead of actually double-attacking.