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    Default Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Gnomish Sagaslayer


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    ”Last week it was a nest of Ankhegs and the week before a Hydra. Business just keeps booming and my coin purse is swelling, but I think my happy mood just got a little spoiled. So tell me again Mister...who were you calling a kid?”
    -Besh Brownnettle, Gnomish Sagaslayer.

    Bards sing tales of epic heroes in every tavern, sonnets populated by cunning and burly men who through the strength of their minds and the sweat of their backs crush monsters that would eat entire villages whole. Beowulf, Siegfried, Gilgamesh and Cú Chulainn are such the mighty mortals that spring to mind when a lad dreams of becoming an idol of yore. But sometimes the legendary destiny of such an august champion is contained inside a much smaller vessel.

    When many think of the Gnomes, images of intricate and artistic devices spring to mind or possibly the breath taking and battle staggering illusion that their crafty trickery can birth. For those few unfortunate to know of them, even the spine chilling assassinations that the Whisper Gnomes are infamous for might jump to the forebrain. But never are Gnomes seen as a threat in physical combat by the world at large. Those small, child-like geniuses and mages could never hope to be a titan that strides between the bodies of the dead and defeat.

    Such foolhardy and ignorant wretches soon find their comeuppance when they cross the path and raise the ire of a Gnomish Sagaslayer. As tough as any Troll and twice as vicious, a Gnomish Sagaslayer is an exception to the stereotypes of their kin. They are a pint-sized powerhouse who wades a sea of monstrous blood, dolling out the kind of punishment that could only be fathomed from the largest of giants and dragons.

    These miniature brutes merely reinforce that one should never judge a book by its cover and never to underestimate someone who comes up to your groin.

    BECOMING A GNOMISH SAGASLAYER

    ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
    Race: Gnome
    Base Attack Bonus: +5
    Skills: Knowledge (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes, or Religion) 5 ranks, Survival 5 ranks
    Maneuvers: Able to initiate one Stone Dragon strike and one Stone Dragon stance or one Iron Heart strike and one Iron Heart Stance or any combination of the previous.
    Special: Must have killed a monster of a CR equal to or greater than their level in one on one combat prior to taking levels in this class.
    Special: A Ranger or other class may forgo meeting the Knowledge skill requirement for this class if their Favored Enemy is one of the creature types covered by one branch of the required skill.

    Class Skills
    The Gnomish Sagaslayer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any two) (Int), Martial Lore (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Surival (Wis).
    Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + Intelligent modifier.

    Hit Dice: d12

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    Fighter of Giants, Grip of the Titan (One)

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    Mettle, True Grit

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    Grip of the Titan (Two), Soul of the Behemoth

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    Underfoot Combat

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    Grip of the Titan (Three), He Who Fights Monsters

    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    Body of the Mouse

    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    Grip of the Titan (Four), Penetrating Strike

    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    Veteran's Scars

    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    Confound the Big Folk, Grip of the Titan (Five)

    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    Heroic Apotheosis
    [/table]

    {table=head]Level|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances

    1st
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |

    2nd
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |

    3rd
    |
    1
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |

    4th
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    1
    |

    5th
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |

    6th
    |
    0
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |

    7th
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |

    8th
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    1
    |

    9th
    |
    1
    |
    1
    |
    0
    |

    10th
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |[/table]

    Weapon Proficiencies: The Gnomish Sagaslayer gains proficiency with all gnomish weapons (any weapon with the word “Gnome” in the name). She does not gain proficiency with any armor or shields.

    Maneuvers: The Gnomish Sagaslayer gains a new maneuver known from the Stone Dragon or Iron Heart disciplines at first, third, fifth, seventh, and ninth level, and a new maneuver readied at third, sixth, and ninth level. She gains a new stance from the Stone Dragon or Iron Heart disciplines at fourth and eigth level. The Gnomish Sagaslayer’s Gnomish Sagaslayer levels count for initiator levels as full, instead of half. A Gnomish Sagaslayer recovers and readies maneuvers as a Warblade. If the Gnomish Sagaslayer was in an initiator class prior to taking levels in this class, she recovers maneuvers in the same way. Otherwise, she recovers them as a Warblade.

    Fighter of Giants (Ex): A Gnomish Sagaslayer is adept at fighting in battles where more times than not her opponent is much larger than she is. A Gnomish Sagslayer gains a +2 dodge bonus to her AC per size category difference between her and her opponent.

    This ability only functions when the Gnomish Sagaslayer is wearing light or no armor.

    Grip of the Titan (Ex): A Gnomish Sagaslayer has a great potency trapped in her small frame, slowly gaining access to its depths as her experience grows. Any manufactured or improvised weapon wielded by a Gnomish Sagaslayer deals damage as if it were one size category larger than it actually is.

    For every two levels that a Gnomish Sagaslayer takes in this class the size category difference is increased to a maximum of five size categories at the 9th level.

    Mettle (Su): A Gnomish Sagaslayer has a mind that is as easy to influence as the boundless sea and a body that is enduring as the living mountain. At 2nd level and higher, a Gnomish Sagaslayer can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If she makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), she instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping Gnomish Sagaslayer does not gain the benefit of Mettle.

    True Grit (Ex): A Gnomish Sagaslayer is made of tougher stuff than most and as she gains experience she soon discovers that her flesh becomes further inured to the trade she deals in. A Gnomish Sagaslayer possesses Damage Reduction that can not be bypassed by any source equal to half her levels in this class.

    Soul of the Behemoth (Ex): A Gnomish Sagaslayer, after fighting foes larger than her all her life, begins to move and act like her giant opponents. A Gnomish Sagaslayer functions in many ways as if she were one size category larger. Whenever a Gnomish Sagaslayer is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for a combat maneuver or opposed check (such as during a grapple, bull rush attempt, and trip attempts), the Gnomish Sagaslayer is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to her. A Gnomish Sagaslayer is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect her. A Gnomish Sagaslayer can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, her space and reach remain those of a creature of her actual size. The benefits of this class ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

    Underfoot Combat : A Gnomish Sagaslayer gains Underfoot Combat [Races of the Wild] as a bonus feat even if she does not normally qualify for it.

    He Who Fights Monsters (Ex): A Gnomish Sagaslayer finds that after constant encounters with the forces of darkness she begins to innately utilize each foe's weaknesses against them. Whenever a Gnomish Sagaslayer fights a creature, she can make a Knowledge check based on its creature type provided she has at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill.
    She then receives an insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature type for the remainder of the combat. The amount of the bonus depends on her Knowledge check result, as given on the following table.

    {table=head] Check Result|Bonus Granted

    15 or below|+1

    16-25|+2

    26-30|+3

    31-35|+4

    36 or higher|+5[/table]

    She can only make one Knowledge check per creature type per combat. If she fights multiple creatures of multiple types during the same combat, she can make one Knowledge check per type, thereby possibly gaining different bonuses against different opponents.

    Body of the Mouse (Ex): A Gnomish Sagaslayer may throw down with titanic opponents but she has not forgotten where she has come from. She hones her diminutive origins to higher heights. The physical stature of a Gnomish Sagaslayer lets her function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a Gnomish Sagaslayer is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check or combat maneuver (such as Hide), the Gnomish Sagaslayer is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to her. A Gnomish Sagaslayer is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A Gnomish Sagaslayer can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a Gnomish Sagaslayer remains those of a creature of her actual size. The benefits of this class ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

    Penetrating Strike: A Gnomish Sagaslayer gains Penetrating Strike as a bonus feat even if she does not normally qualify for it.

    Veteran's Scars (Su): As a Gnomish Sagaslayer tucks more and more battles under her belt, the trauma and horror of those brushes with death take their toll on not only her body but her very being. A Gnomish Sagslayer gains a bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to all her saving throws (minimum 0).

    Confound the Big Folk: A Gnomish Sagaslayer gains Confound the Big Folk as a bonus feat even if she does not normally qualify for it.

    Heroic Apothesis (Su): As her legend spreads and her prowess grows, a Gnomish Sagaslayer finds herself going through a great change. Her type changes to Outsider (Augmented,Native) and her Damage Reduction from her True Grit ability increases to be equal to her total levels in this class. Furthermore she ages a much slower rate, only aging one year for every five. A Gnomish Sagaslayer still accrues aging penalties and benefits as she actually ages and dies when her time is finally up.

    PLAYING A GNOMISH SAGASLAYER
    Gnomish Sagaslayers can be defined as "Tanky DPS"; a special niche of melee class that has good survivability but lacks the heavy defenses and attention grabbing abilities that are the hallmark for a true Tank. Gnomish Sagaslayers live in a world that constantly looks down on them, both literally and metaphorically, and they aren't ones to take it quietly or with good tempers. Gnomish Sagaslayers as such tend to develop chips on their shoulders and are more than satisfied to take out their frustrations and issues out on the foul monsters that make attempts on their lives.

    Gnomish Sagaslayers can start their careers as any Martial Initiating class (Warblade being the most common), but are more commonly Rangers who specialized their talent for hunting by dipping and learning some blade magic. It is not unheard of though for other melee classes, like Barbarians or Fighters, to take the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats in order to tap into the power of this class.
    Combat: Gnomish Sagaslayers always are on the front lines of a violent situation, never shirking from using their devastating talents. A Gnomish Sagaslayer tends to go for the largest or toughest opponent first to make use of their Fighter of Giants class ability but some favor assaulting the soft bodies of spellcasters first.
    Advancement: Gnomish Sagaslayer may continue the path that lead them first to Gnomish Sagaslayer when it ends or may branch out into other appropriate prestige classes that further their innate qualities. A Gnomish Sagaslayer who experiences a psionic awakening almost always pursues the Slayer prestige class.
    Resources: Belonging to no specific orders by virtue of being a Gnomish Sagaslayer and not tight knit enough to form an order amongst themselves, a Gnomish Sagaslayer normally does not have any special resources they can draw upon. Gnomish Sagaslayers passing through Gnomish communities may receive special treatment if recognized for what they are and the community is in a time of need against monstrous attackers but may just as likely try to expedite the Sagaslayer's departure lest their antics cause too much collateral damage. A talented Gnomish Sagaslayer can easily find themselves quite wealthy if they fall into being a Bounty hunter, Monster slayer or Sell sword.

    GNOMISH SAGASLAYER IN THE WORLD
    ”Me and the boys thought it was pretty funny when we saw that girlie walk in through the front doors. Sure she had a shortsword on her waist and she was wearing chain mail but we were so sure at the time that it was all just for play. Almost choked on my grog when she approached Lars and actually asked him for a full pint! And then when she started get all huffy at the old barkeep we were all laughing!

    But...that's when things stopped being so funny....

    She must have been a demon the way she broke that chair against Lars and put him out cold and things got mostly hazy in the brawl that started afterwards. Last thing I remember was seeing an entire table coming my way and hitting the wall, but after that it was all a blur.

    The place was a wreck when I came too and I thank my lucky stars that I came out with just a few bruises and a broken arm. I still have me life...some lads weren't so lucky.”

    -Daggot Finergan, Local pirate

    Gnomish Sagaslayers are at best received similarly to other adventurers of the melee persuasion and at worst taken in as children who are running around playing silly games, trying at being adults. Those who recognize a gnome for what it is rarely can see the distinction between a Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger or Gnomish Sagaslayer and usually suffer for making the wrong assumptions. Too few are the knowledgeable or scholarly who know the existence of this breed and few gnomes are willing to divulge the secret that any battle inclined member of their people you could meet could in reality be a temperamental champion of yore who hunt monsters and can leave great chaos in their wake.
    Daily Life: A Gnomish Sagaslayer's daily life is really no different from that of any Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger or other class that they originally belonged to.
    Notables: No one knows who the first Gnomish Sagaslayer may have been and so scattered and minimally renowned are they as a group of similar individuals that any who gain fame and glory have yet to be immortalized for being one in any but the most forgotten of analogues.
    Organizations: Gnomish Sagaslayers possesses no organization of their own and only are likely to belong to others on an individual basis.

    NPC Reaction
    Most NPCs are not even aware that a Gnomish Sagaslayer is any different than normal for the class they took before becoming one and treat them as such. Gnomes tend to treat Sagaslayers with a mix of hero worship and caution; though they are great figures who fight the most deadly of creatures they are also naturally destructive and can be quite unbalanced from years of torment and hardship.

    GNOMISH SAGASLAYERS IN THE GAME
    Gnomish Sagaslayers are strong melee fighters who mostly dabble in Blade Magic from the Tome of Battle in order to supplement and increase their capabilities in combat. Sagaslayers tend to sacrifice the sheer durability or versatility that their base class would have granted with further levels in order to gain a sharp upturn in damage capability coupled with some increased survivability. Sagaslayers tend not to be adapt enough at Blade Magic to be as competent as a true Initiating class but they can easily be a spring board for other classes and prestige classes that further or require training in it.
    Adaptation: The Gnomish Sagaslayer can only really be adapted to be utilized by races that are naturally small or smaller. It's meant to give some serious oomph to those species that aren't ever viewed as a credible brawny threat because of their size.
    Encounters: Encounters with Gnomish Sagaslayers most commonly either occur the same as with their base classes or during an intrepid adventure into the lair of some dangerous and/or horrific monster that has a price on its head or is otherwise infamous.

    Change Log

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    7/18/11 - Made multiple changes across the board, as noted in all the posts made today.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2011-07-18 at 12:24 AM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    I'm posting this class in a thread of its own because it got essentially zero exposure and next to no critiquing in the Gnome Fan Club thread.


    Edit: By the by, if there are any homebrewed Disciplines that anyone feels would match the theme of this PrC, then please link them. I enjoy any input in this regard and would like to flesh out the class' maneuver side more.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2011-07-17 at 11:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    I'm posting this class in a thread of its own because it got essentially zero exposure and next to no critiquing in the Gnome Fan Club thread.
    Alright, that's a good idea. (And sorry for not critiquing it, personally. I really did and still do love this class)

    So I'll make it up to you now with a full, detailed analysis, because this class deserves it.

    First of all: Good Fort saves, D12 HD, Full BAB and the two most stoic disciplines of the Sublime Way. It's like you took the gnome's racial +2 Con bonus and made a class around it. I am genuinely impressed.

    Skill: Acrobatics? Is that a Pathfinder skill or something? I've never heard of it.

    Proficiencies: The language is confusing here. You said "Any" gnomish weapon. That could either imply every gnomish weapon, or making a choice, but it's always better to be clear. I suggest changing it to either "any one gnomish weapon" or "all gnomish weapons".

    Recovering Maneuvers: It's interesting that you have an option to split it up here. What if the gnomish sagaslayer was a crusader before? Now you have all his maneuvers from the new class being recovered as a warblade, but all of his crusader maneuvers (including the ones that got him into the class) being granted randomly.

    I understand the need to state it, (one could get into this class without initiator levels after all), but I think you should clarify: "If the gnomish sagaslayer was in an initator class before, he recovers maneuvers in the same way. Otherwise, he recovers them as a warblade"

    Grip of the Titan: You're really limiting yourself here. I don't see why you're putting a damage cap on this ability, as it's a great and flavorful ability. Most damage increasers don't care about maximum size, they just keep going. (the monk's unarmed strike, as well as any other natural attack, comes to mind. In fact, Colossal creatures can take Improved Natural Attack and deal damage as if they were a size category larger)

    He Who Fights Monsters:...So, it's like a weaker version of the Knowledge Domain feat? (Same effect, but Knowledge Domain also gives you any one Knowledge as a class skill permanently) I mean, it makes sense, I'm just surprised you typed it all out instead of just saying "The gnomish sagaslayer gains the Knowledge Domain feat as a bonus feat"

    How does Body of the Mouse work with Fighter of Giants?

    Veteran's Scars- I see what you meant to say here, but you worded it improperly. A Charisma modifier can be negative, and (if any) doesn't mean (ignore it if it's less than 0). I would change that to (if positive) or (minimum 0)

    Heroic Apotheosis- So...your capstone causes you to no longer qualify for the class? I may be wrong, but I think when your type changes, you lose your original subtypes. (I don't think someone can be an Outsider(Gnome)). And if you're no longer a Humanoid (Gnome), you're not a gnome anymore...
    Sweet sorcerer avatar by Cuthalion

    Quote Originally Posted by LoL Forum
    Quote Originally Posted by DefenderCRU
    Even with six blood thirsters, I still wouldn't be dealing tons of damage...
    Quote Originally Posted by BellatorCQC
    That's because you don't have a Trinity Force.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    You forgot to put what Confound the Big Folk is. Also except for the part about making it so you no longer apply to this class by way of capstone it looks good.
    Last edited by wiimanclassic; 2011-07-17 at 11:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Quote Originally Posted by wiimanclassic View Post
    You forgot to put what Confound the Big Folk is. Also except for the part about making it so you no longer apply to this class by way of capstone it looks good.
    Confound the Big Folk is a feat from Races of Stone or Races of the Wild (Can't remember if it's halflings or gnomes flavor-wise, but either one can take it)
    Sweet sorcerer avatar by Cuthalion

    Quote Originally Posted by LoL Forum
    Quote Originally Posted by DefenderCRU
    Even with six blood thirsters, I still wouldn't be dealing tons of damage...
    Quote Originally Posted by BellatorCQC
    That's because you don't have a Trinity Force.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Alright, that's a good idea. (And sorry for not critiquing it, personally. I really did and still do love this class)
    It's fine. I had originally homebrewed it up on a whim and with me working on my Wyrd-blooded and thinking of looking back on my older brew, I decided to give it a thread proper.

    So I'll make it up to you now with a full, detailed analysis, because this class deserves it.

    First of all: Good Fort saves, D12 HD, Full BAB and the two most stoic disciplines of the Sublime Way. It's like you took the gnome's racial +2 Con bonus and made a class around it. I am genuinely impressed.
    Thank you kindly. Some of the highest praise any of my brew has yet to receive.

    Skill: Acrobatics? Is that a Pathfinder skill or something? I've never heard of it.
    Yup. It absorbed Jump, Tumble and Balance.

    Proficiencies: The language is confusing here. You said "Any" gnomish weapon. That could either imply every gnomish weapon, or making a choice, but it's always better to be clear. I suggest changing it to either "any one gnomish weapon" or "all gnomish weapons".
    I could have sworn I pulled that directly from an actual WoTC PrC and just changed the race name. I'll go change it.

    Recovering Maneuvers: It's interesting that you have an option to split it up here. What if the gnomish sagaslayer was a crusader before? Now you have all his maneuvers from the new class being recovered as a warblade, but all of his crusader maneuvers (including the ones that got him into the class) being granted randomly.

    I understand the need to state it, (one could get into this class without initiator levels after all), but I think you should clarify: "If the gnomish sagaslayer was in an initator class before, he recovers maneuvers in the same way. Otherwise, he recovers them as a warblade"
    Yeah, you're right. I actually noticed that just after reposting and re-reading this class in this thread. I'll go change that.

    Grip of the Titan: You're really limiting yourself here. I don't see why you're putting a damage cap on this ability, as it's a great and flavorful ability. Most damage increasers don't care about maximum size, they just keep going. (the monk's unarmed strike, as well as any other natural attack, comes to mind. In fact, Colossal creatures can take Improved Natural Attack and deal damage as if they were a size category larger)
    The class ability is basically Greater Mighty Wallop with an indefinite duration. Would it not be overpowered to remove the cap limit?

    He Who Fights Monsters:...So, it's like a weaker version of the Knowledge Domain feat? (Same effect, but Knowledge Domain also gives you any one Knowledge as a class skill permanently) I mean, it makes sense, I'm just surprised you typed it all out instead of just saying "The gnomish sagaslayer gains the Knowledge Domain feat as a bonus feat"
    Well, I didn't want the class to just start handing out a ton of bonus feats and I didn't want to give the Sagaslayer an additional free class skill.

    How does Body of the Mouse work with Fighter of Giants?
    Basically the Gnomish Sagaslayer can be treated as Small, Medium or Tiny depending on which of the three are beneficial to it at the time.

    Veteran's Scars- I see what you meant to say here, but you worded it improperly. A Charisma modifier can be negative, and (if any) doesn't mean (ignore it if it's less than 0). I would change that to (if positive) or (minimum 0)
    Actually, that's exactly how Divine Grace for the Pathfinder Paladin is worded.

    Heroic Apotheosis- So...your capstone causes you to no longer qualify for the class? I may be wrong, but I think when your type changes, you lose your original subtypes. (I don't think someone can be an Outsider(Gnome)). And if you're no longer a Humanoid (Gnome), you're not a gnome anymore...
    Gah, thanks for noticing that. Also adding that it gives the Augmented subtype.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2011-07-17 at 11:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Actually, that's exactly how the Pathfinder Paladin's ability Divine Grace is worded
    If taking RAW abilities worked all the time, homebrew wouldn't exist. You don't want this class to take a penalty to its saving throws if the gnome has low Charisma or just takes Charisma damage or drain, do you? Making your class ability "better" than Divine Grace, and I'm using that term loosely, isn't going to make it "overpowered". (Especially since Paladins all have a good reason to invest in Charisma, whereas this is the only class feature of the gnomish sagaslayer that deals with it). By making it have a minimum of 0, you're rewarding the player who plays a Charismatic gnome. By penalizing a character who has lower than 10 in their Charisma score, you're just making it MAD.

    The class ability is basically Greater Mighty Wallop with an indefinite duration. Would it not make it overpowered to remove the damage limit?
    Instead, ask yourself: Why does it make sense to have a limit in the first place? As your gnome grows, he gains the power to wield heavier and heavier weapons. And the way it's worded now, at some point he could reach the next power level and just not get any better, simply because they don't make weapons that big. So your character's increased strength gain is wasted because the tools don't exist to exploit it. Does that make sense to you?
    Sweet sorcerer avatar by Cuthalion

    Quote Originally Posted by LoL Forum
    Quote Originally Posted by DefenderCRU
    Even with six blood thirsters, I still wouldn't be dealing tons of damage...
    Quote Originally Posted by BellatorCQC
    That's because you don't have a Trinity Force.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    If taking RAW abilities worked all the time, homebrew wouldn't exist. You don't want this class to take a penalty to its saving throws if the gnome has low Charisma or just takes Charisma damage or drain, do you? Making your class ability "better" than Divine Grace, and I'm using that term loosely, isn't going to make it "overpowered". (Especially since Paladins all have a good reason to invest in Charisma, whereas this is the only class feature of the gnomish sagaslayer that deals with it). By making it have a minimum of 0, you're rewarding the player who plays a Charismatic gnome. By penalizing a character who has lower than 10 in their Charisma score, you're just making it MAD.



    Instead, ask yourself: Why does it make sense to have a limit in the first place? As your gnome grows, he gains the power to wield heavier and heavier weapons. And the way it's worded now, at some point he could reach the next power level and just not get any better, simply because they don't make weapons that big. So your character's increased strength gain is wasted because the tools don't exist to exploit it. Does that make sense to you?
    You make good points and fixed those both.

    Can't believe I forgot to add Confound the Big Folk in the class features text.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    You know, the way you've worded Mettle it doesn't really make sense that the gnome wouldn't get the Fort resistance bonus while unconscious or asleep. (I understand the Will save, but think about it)

    By simply being hardy, the gnome is able to shrug off an exhaustion spell (can't think of one that saves or fatigues at the moment, but I know there is one), without becoming fatigued. Yet when he's asleep, for some reason, it doesn't work. Does that mean the gnome has to make some kind of effort or physical movement to make himself "extra-hardy"?

    I know this is how Mettle works in every class, but now that I'm really looking closely at it, it doesn't make sense to me. You know? Otherwise, the class looks great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoL Forum
    Quote Originally Posted by DefenderCRU
    Even with six blood thirsters, I still wouldn't be dealing tons of damage...
    Quote Originally Posted by BellatorCQC
    That's because you don't have a Trinity Force.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    You know, the way you've worded Mettle it doesn't really make sense that the gnome wouldn't get the Fort resistance bonus while unconscious or asleep. (I understand the Will save, but think about it)

    By simply being hardy, the gnome is able to shrug off an exhaustion spell (can't think of one that saves or fatigues at the moment, but I know there is one), without becoming fatigued. Yet when he's asleep, for some reason, it doesn't work. Does that mean the gnome has to make some kind of effort or physical movement to make himself "extra-hardy"?

    I know this is how Mettle works in every class, but now that I'm really looking closely at it, it doesn't make sense to me. You know? Otherwise, the class looks great.
    The best example I can think of is characters who's durability (Healing Factors or what have you) either can be influenced by their mind set or those who can amp those abilities actively. If they're aware and trying, they can make those stats skyrocket but they're more likely to go down when caught unawares.

    But that's all I've got. *shrugs*

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    The best example I can think of is characters who's durability (Healing Factors or what have you) either can be influenced by their mind set or those who can amp those abilities actively. If they're aware and trying, they can make those stats skyrocket but they're more likely to go down when caught unawares.

    But that's all I've got. *shrugs*
    Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the actual explanation is more along the lines of "It's bad enough that they can use it in any type of armor, let's not blatantly screw the rogue over any more than we have to"
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoL Forum
    Quote Originally Posted by DefenderCRU
    Even with six blood thirsters, I still wouldn't be dealing tons of damage...
    Quote Originally Posted by BellatorCQC
    That's because you don't have a Trinity Force.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Well, moving on from that tid bit:

    1. Are there any Disciplines anyone would like to suggest that this class would possibly gain access to that would fit the flavor and theme of the class?

    2. Are there any Homebrewed PrCs anyone would like to put forward as being options for this class to continue their career? Or any base classes that could lead into this class?

    I ask because I'm beginning to get into the frame of mind that I'd like my projects to foster and encourage connection and unity between varying bits of brew across the site. Not only to give more exposure to good material but also to create a kind of continuity that stacking homebrew in of itself is just as valid as stacking pure WoTC/Paizo content or mix-matching WoTC/Paizo content with homebrew.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Well... I got nothing that actually fits either of those...
    Would you settle for some more generalized Wiki-pedia-like cross-indexing instead?
    Best homebrew:
    Grace-Gift - Truly Defensive base class, Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread livers, skins, etc.
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    For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Well... I got nothing that actually fits either of those...
    Would you settle for some more generalized Wiki-pedia-like cross-indexing instead?

    Thank you kindly!

    I'll see how I can work in a link for yours.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Bumping for further critiques and opinions.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    If you took 9 or 10 levels of this, and Two-weapon fighting or something else, and assuming your previous class gave you proficiency in Simple weapons, you could wield a medium Mace, Light, and a medium Mace, Heavy, since those are light and one-handed weapons respectively, and deal 6d6 & 6d8 damage with them. sure, that will be around levels 14 + 15, but I wouldn't allow this in a gestalt game, ever.
    Perfectly fine in a normal game. I think it's a pretty cool tier 1 PrC, if you could measure PrCs by tier.
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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    If you took 9 or 10 levels of this, and Two-weapon fighting or something else, and assuming your previous class gave you proficiency in Simple weapons, you could wield a medium Mace, Light, and a medium Mace, Heavy, since those are light and one-handed weapons respectively, and deal 6d6 & 6d8 damage with them. sure, that will be around levels 14 + 15, but I wouldn't allow this in a gestalt game, ever.
    Perfectly fine in a normal game. I think it's a pretty cool tier 1 PrC, if you could measure PrCs by tier.
    You're overvaluing the bonuses like crazy. Also this is nowhere near a "tier 1" PrC.
    Last edited by Sir Homeslice; 2011-08-05 at 11:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    I think it's a pretty cool tier 1 PrC, if you could measure PrCs by tier.
    ...This is nowhere near Tier 1. I don't think you understand what the tiers mean.

    This is solid Tier 3. Competitive in combat, and with handful of knowledge, social, and other skills to make it useful outside of its forte.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    OK, I may be misvaluing the tier system.

    But think about this:
    Soul of the behemoth lets you, as a small creature, wield medium weapons.
    Grip of the Titan (five), increases the damage of that to five categories higher, so six categories above what you normally would wield.
    Examine the damage of a mace. Increase the damage dice by six steps.

    Sure, at your level 6d6 isn't much. Rogues have had it for, what, four levels? wait, you get it on all your attacks in a full attack.
    Still, compared to a War Hulk, or any other prestige class, or any spell caster, I guess that's not much.
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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    ...Yeah, it has damage. The tier system is not about damage, otherwise Barbarians would be near 1 instead of 4.

    The question is, what else can it do. Versatility.

    Also 6d6 is an average of what, 21 damage per swing? Big whoop.

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    Default Re: Pain: Now in Bite Size! [ Prestige Class ]

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    Still, compared to a War Hulk, or any other prestige class, or any spell caster, I guess that's not much.
    Yeah, kind of this. High dice damage for a weapon is kind of meh in the total aspect of the game.

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