Opposing Factions ( Community World Building project )

[hydroplatypus]

With respect to the factions, how unified are they?

Are the cities unified so as to defend against the forest, or are they each fighting primarily for their own survival? Will they help each other or are they too concerned with their own well being?

Like-ways, are the forces of nature actively organized (maybe druids behind this) or are they kind of attacking almost reflexively?

We end up with very different settings depending on whether they are unified or not.

[Calliope121]

Looks good to me. If you want to put the matter up to a vote, that works. As to the unification, Perhaps they are loosely unified?

[hydroplatypus]

Looks good to me. If you want to put the matter up to a vote, that works. As to the unification, Perhaps they are loosely unified?

I don't care one way or the other, as long as it is pinned down. From my own attempt at world design I know that a world with large numbers of city states is very different from a world with only a few significant nations. Once this is pinned down I can start coming up with more ideas or questions.

[Recherché]

Two things. First, I can't see the Friend as being a neutral third party without turning the evil levels way down. Otherwise they would likely make more trouble for the two main factions than they would solve by being mediators, and as such might be exterminated by either side. So instead of the standard Lolth worshipping embodiment of evil I see this world's dark elves as instead being the ultimate survivors. They existed for ages in the most hostile parts of the world, where food and water are scarce beyond belief and monsters roam.Comparatively the spaces beneath the sky cities are paradise. However they have not forgotten the lessons learned in the dark.

The clan must survive no matter what.
Protect the women, they are the source of the next generation; in contrast men are expendable
Never depend on the charity of others
cruelty in the name of survival is a virtue
The ends always justify the means.

However the Dark Elves are not sadists who inflict pain without reason. In truth they can be quite kind to both allies and strangers when it doesn't interfere with their own survival. Also importantly these traits are not inborn; they must be learned. Dark Elves raised among other races turn out to be fairly normal.

My other thought is that the Spirits of the forest and Druids probably do coordinate things somewhat, but they are not a unified army. The cities are likely the same way.

[Arathnos]

I agree with the above, that Drow need to be cruel out of necessity, not out of inherent sadism.

Also, in regards to faction unity, I picture something like this, let me know what you think:

The cities are fairly disjointed, unable to look past their own selfishness to help others. There is one city that is massive, far larger and more powerful in every way than the others. As such, it draws the most violent opposition from the natural world, and so has to commit its extensive resources to stay alive. Each of the other city-states petitions the largest for troops, aid, supplies, and feels let down. The large city provides what it can, but it has limited spare resources, so the other cities are constantly fighting a political battle to gain the favor of the large city and win support. This keeps them from ever unifying, as what few alliances form are short-lived and out of convenience only. Of course, if they ever were to come together, they would have several advantages and be much stronger, but that outcome is all but impossible.

Contrastingly, the natural world has a loose coalition. The people and creatures of the forests are more nomadic, less likely to call any one patch of land home. Because of this, they give support in whatever way they can, to whichever dark one they are closest to at any time. Dark zones share supplies and support each other when necessary because the preservation of the natural world is the first priority, but they lack any form of official hierarchy or government.

Stronger, smarter creatures are respected, as are druids. They're wisdom is trusted by all, but they rarely 'command' in anything other than battle.

[Strormer]

This is great guys. I agree with the Drow needing to be toned down in the evil department. I see them as always seeking the greatest personal advantage in all situations. Survivors would work great. I also think that these dark elves should leave Lolth behind. I loved how Eberron re-themed the dark elves and I'd love to do something like that here.

Incidentally, I would like to offer a suggestion for the integrity of the natural world's opposition. I agree that the Druids and other important, sentient figures should have reasonable respect if not control, but what about allowing the forest itself to have a loose control? Those familiar with Magic the Gathering will remember Multani and Yavimaya. Why not something similar. The forest resists of its own accord and otherwise non-sentient creatures might band together in its defense because of some collective will that is more ethereal than quantitative. Just an idea.

I would also like to see specific stations in the cities, such as governors, lords, etc. Not neccessarily respecting each other's claim to power, but allowing enough to reinforce their own station. It creates a bit of an intimidation factor that should keep the folk below from outright warfare when some of them feel pushed too far. That would create a lot of gurrila tactics which I would love to see rp'ed. Players would eat that up.

[hydroplatypus]

The cities are fairly disjointed, unable to look past their own selfishness to help others. There is one city that is massive, far larger and more powerful in every way than the others. As such, it draws the most violent opposition from the natural world, and so has to commit its extensive resources to stay alive. Each of the other city-states petitions the largest for troops, aid, supplies, and feels let down. The large city provides what it can, but it has limited spare resources, so the other cities are constantly fighting a political battle to gain the favor of the large city and win support. This keeps them from ever unifying, as what few alliances form are short-lived and out of convenience only. Of course, if they ever were to come together, they would have several advantages and be much stronger, but that outcome is all but impossible.

I like this idea, and the nature idea too. How about we start deciding what military resources the central city actually has. Given that it is the largest city it should have an academy that trains arcane casters. I am thinking that due to the fighting there is little time for learning the academic stuff about magic, and the academy would be combat focused. This would lead to the academy training large numbers of Warmages to help in the war, while leading to few actual wizards. Additionally the Academy also produces magic items for the city's elite (higher level) military divisions. The amount of magic in the largest city explains how it got to be the most powerful.

In addition to the Academy the city maintains traditional (fighter and warrior) military forces, additionally requiring everyone fit for service to train in the militia and/or serve in the military for 1 or 2 years, in order to ensure that it actually has the manpower to survive.

The city also maintains siege weapons around its perimeter (Batista, catapults) so that they have these to defend against attack.


In addition to military forces we also need to consider how the cities get resources and transportation. Being up in the air resources would be hard to obtain, and with nature attacking transportation would be difficult. My proposal for both is that the pillar that holds up the city also extends deep into the earth. From there tunnels go to metalic ores, and to the other cities. Additionally these tunnels occasionally extend to the surface, in order to harvest wood. Really fast transportation would be handled by teleport. Athough this can't really transport armies it can allow the transport of diplomats (or they could just use divination for negotiations) or for the transport of powerful military assets (read PCs [also high level NPCs]) who have a chance of turning the tide of a battle.

Food is still a problem for these cities. Being up in the air they either have to suspend farmland above the forest as well, or they have to go down and farm land somehow. I really have no sensible solutions to the food/water issues, but wanted to bring it up.

[Strormer]

In addition to military forces we also need to consider how the cities get resources and transportation. Being up in the air resources would be hard to obtain, and with nature attacking transportation would be difficult. My proposal for both is that the pillar that holds up the city also extends deep into the earth. From there tunnels go to metalic ores, and to the other cities. Additionally these tunnels occasionally extend to the surface, in order to harvest wood. Really fast transportation would be handled by teleport. Athough this can't really transport armies it can allow the transport of diplomats (or they could just use divination for negotiations) or for the transport of powerful military assets (read PCs [also high level NPCs]) who have a chance of turning the tide of a battle.

Well, remember that the cities are drawing natural energy from the ground too, if we're sticking with that, so they conceivably already have the ability to access underground resources. This could also give our neutral Drow a leg up because the cities would need them. We just need the Drow to offer something that the jungle could use and boom, indespensable. Also, I still wanna use the gigantic, mage-powered monorails connecting the cities. I think that the cities would want to make it so that the average citizen never goes down to the jungle below.

Food is still a problem for these cities. Being up in the air they either have to suspend farmland above the forest as well, or they have to go down and farm land somehow. I really have no sensible solutions to the food/water issues, but wanted to bring it up.

What about a hanging gardens type thing. Hydroponics and the like would make food production more stable, water collection and treatment could either be through the mana draining effect or through rain collection as a jungle the size we've been talking about would need extensive rainfall to support it. I can even see some Druids that are sided with the cities by living up there and tending to the gardens and trying to lessen the impact of civilization on the jungle. Sorta the "can't we all just work together" hippie druid.

[Othniel Edden]

What we really have here is Faction 1 vs. Faction 2, with each "side" having "independents". Each independent lives one of the sides territories, but they aren't involved the opposition directly. I could imagine the Wild side having weapon smiths that pray to the earth and shape weapons out of different backs. Groves of Ironwood are planted by such smiths and are shaped by their prayers into the Great Swords and Axes need to operate against the city dwellers. Iron Clan Dwarves even shape the trees into dwellings, and live in the largest iron wood, and they give them the strength of steel by tempering them with the spirits of fire, smoke and metal.

[Strormer]

Alright, so let's talk gaming then. We have a world. What sorts of classes would populate it.
In context I would think that the world is sliding into high magic slightly, but not completely. We also have a vast array of monsters that can show up. Anything magically created could be a perfect monster inside or sent from one of the cities and any magical beast or fey is perfect for the forest below. I'm picturing the forest with great behemoths and terrifying predators. Perhaps using Jurassic Park as an influence, though I'd shy away from actually using dinosaurs. Sorta gives the wrong feel for this kind of game. More sci-fi and we could though. Are we going high fantasy, gothic, arcadian, what do you guys think?

[Othniel Edden]

Gothic mixed with Sword and the Planet is my vote.

[hydroplatypus]

Monsters that should appear (IMHO):
In Cities:Golems, because the city mages build them for the war. Shield guardian, same reason, Basically any type of construct. Elementals, summonned by the city mages. Animated objects.

In forests:
The tarrasque, cause it's awesome. Dire animals of course. Wyverns. winter wolf and worg for obvious reasons. Mabye trolls. treants. swarms. Fey creatures. Rust monsters, because they're appropriate. Roc. owlbear. anything with plant type.

Off the top of my head these are the monsters in MM1 that I think would primarily align with one side or the other.

On the classes that occupy the world we should start with saying that most of the PHB classes are there. Monk is the only one that seems to clash with the setting, but can be made to fit with a little work. From PHB 2 all of the classes introduced there fit. Swashbuckler doesn't really fit too well IMHO as the wilds generally kill people with that much arrogance, and the cities don't really leave room for much swashbuckling. Warmage and Warlock work, Wu Jen not as much. Don't own too many books so those are the only base that I know well enough to actually say much on.

On prestige classes:
Can't think of any that wouldn't exist, but (out of DMG prestige classes) Archmage would likely be relatively common, as someone has to be responsible for the magic these cities have. Other than that I think that most prestige classes would exist, but be extraordinarily rare.

[Machinekng]

This whole thing reminds me of my own Aestuava campaign setting, in several ways.

My primary two factions were the Tiberan empire, a Lawful nation that is based off imperial rome, the pre-civil war deep south, and medival Christendom, and the Chaotic jungle tribes, which were based off various groups including the goths, the vikings, and native americans of all sorts.

Neither side is good or evil, per-say. The empire is ruled by a lawful good god-emperor, and has a well-developed system of justice and a good standard of living, but slavery and corruption are rampant. The jungle tribes are free-spirited, and are generally peaceful, but are disorganized and somewhat lawless.

Both fations interact regulary. Even though the empire views the jungle dwellers as unwashed savages, and the tribes view the empire as tyrannical, trade occurs due to a market for exotic products. The tribes desire imperial cotton and salt, while the empire lusts for the tribes' silver and brewing, leading to the creation of a love-hate relationship.

The enviorment is also similar. Aestuava is a bastardization of the latin word for summer, and accordingly, the planet is in what essentially is an eternal summer. Although the polar regions are still affected by winter, most of the world is covered in jungle, save the regions which the empire has cleared.

In addition to primary factions, there are several factions that soley serve as antagonists for both factions.

Just noting a few parallels. I don't really have anything to add, but I'll be watching this thread.

[Strormer]

I would like to see a few original monsters for the setting. I feel pretty heavily influenced by Magic the Gathering for this one myself. I'm looking into the Alara setting for some inspiration. Specifically there is a demi-plane called Naya from the Shards of Alara expansion which has been cut off from black (necrotic) and blue (magic/manipulative) mana, leaving an explosively lush world. In magic terminology, the jungle is green/red/white while the cities would be blue/white.
In these terms then, the wild and uncontrolled world would provide for more feral, natural species for players to choose from. I'd like to see a lot of Elves, Catfolk, Centaurs, maybe some other Fey. On the contrary, I'd see the cities housing Dwarves, though I do love the ironwood glade idea from earlier a LOT, Halflings, maybe Warforged. The humans and half-races I'd put in between because their connections to both sides are important. Races of the wild is the supplement I've been diving for this whole time, but I admit to despising LA on races. Stripping down some wild or fey races to be LA0 would be nice. I've already done it for my own setting, but they don't entirely fit this world, so we would need to play with them.
Let's see if we can compile a list of races that would fit the setting, and let's be creative. I'd love to see a deviation from PHB stuff here. Why not, any individual DM already has that stuff. Settings should bring something new.
I throw out (not counting PHB races):
Catfolk (RotW)
Centaurs (MM1)
Killoreen (RotW)
Warforged (ECS)
Merfolk (MM1, but more for a forest-swamp type area, swimming in the roots of giant trees)

Calliope, once we have a good sized list, we could put it up for a vote of races to add just to this setting. We can always type up a good mod for the PHB races later, just for fluff.

[Calliope121]

Putting it up to a vote sounds good to me.

Catfolk (RotW)
Centaurs (MM1)
Killoreen (RotW)
Warforged (ECS)
Merfolk (MM1)
Awakened Monkeys 3
Kuo Toa
Awakened skeletons

[Strormer]

C'mon guys, does no one have any other races they'd like to see?

[erictheredd]

If you really want my opinion---

a druid went a little crazy and started casting "awaken" on monkeys. He got enough that they started breeding, and making more awakened monkeys. Now these monkeys are intelligent and have their own society, as well as blending into the societies of others. While come from the jungle, many have ended up living in city, and are sophisticated as any other dweller, where they get jobs that involve small spaces or great heights.


talking monkeys. I would totally play one.

[hydroplatypus]

vote for awakened monkeys

[Guest#1]

vote for awaken monkey...my friend once made a half-dragon awakened monkey wizard with a platypus familiar

[Strormer]

I like the monkeys! ^_^ Planet of the apes was one of my favorite films.

[Lady Serpentine]

All of those sound good. How about Kuo-Toa? I'm seeing them as living in these massive hollowed out trees that are set up to catch and hold rainwater, but that's hardly the only way for them to work.

Edit: Rakshasa seem like they might be workable, too. It is a jungle after all, and if we have people with talking monkeys, then why not mage-tigers?

[Strormer]

Rakshasas could certainly be out there, but I wouldn't list them as a player race. Their level adjustment is obnoxious. That's why I put in Catfolk. I don't know too much about Kuo Toa.

Also, for the monkey people, I came up with this...

Spoiler

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+2 Int, -2 Cha: Although they are highly inquisitive and clever, these beings are not as refined as most other races.

Medium Size

Speed: 40ft.

Brachiation: Can move through trees at normal move speed and ignores difficult terrain in wooded areas.

Naturally Agile: +2 Balance, Jump, Swim, Climb, and Tumble

Low-Light Vision

Languages; Automatic: Common and Sylvan, Bonus: Terran, Auran, Aquan, Elven, Gnome, Giant, and Yuan Ti.

Favored Class: Druid

[Lady Serpentine]

Kuo-Toa are fish-people, basically. They'd probably take some resskinning to work, but I think it would be worth it.

The monkeys look cool. It should be interesting to see how this works out in the end.

[Strormer]

Lots of options are out there now. Does anyone have anything they absolutely do not want to see as a player race?

[erictheredd]

medium? the monkeys are medium? I did not expect this. I was expecting at least small, perhaps tiny, with a large str penalty and a decent dexterity bonus, as given in the srd . you know, not monkey people: awakened monkeys

Spoiler

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-8 str +4 dex : monkeys are very weak, but they are also surprisingly agile

speed 30ft climb 30ft

monkeys gain a racial +10 to all climb and balance checks

tiny size

or for larger monkeys (like baboons)

Spoiler

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-4 str +2 dex

speed 30ft, climb 30ft

+10 racial bonus to all climb and balance checks

I think their decently balanced, though I know that the str penalties scream "dump stat". still, they should be fairly entertaining to play. of course, I don't know how to really break the game. tell me whats abusable.

and yes, I know we'll never see a monkey fighter. though we'd see plenty of rouges, druids, and wizards.

[Strormer]

medium? the monkeys are medium? I did not expect this. I was expecting at least small, perhaps tiny, with a large str penalty and a decent dexterity bonus, as given in the srd . you know, not monkey people: awakened monkeys

Spoiler

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-8 str +4 dex : monkeys are very weak, but they are also surprisingly agile

speed 30ft climb 30ft

monkeys gain a racial +10 to all climb and balance checks

tiny size

or for larger monkeys (like baboons)

Spoiler

Show

-4 str +2 dex

speed 30ft, climb 30ft

+10 racial bonus to all climb and balance checks

I think their decently balanced, though I know that the str penalties scream "dump stat". still, they should be fairly entertaining to play. of course, I don't know how to really break the game. tell me whats abusable.

and yes, I know we'll never see a monkey fighter. though we'd see plenty of rouges, druids, and wizards.

Well, the reasoning I used was that anything that isn't small, medium, or large falls out of player-use. Also, the bonuses are way over the top. A +/-4 is already pushing the limits of what a PC race should have, but anything above it becomes unplayable. PC races should always have universal balance in mind to be truly useful. No race should overtly favor any one class over the others because otherwise all of that race will be that class. For example, when I was making my PC fey for my homebrew I had to avoid the temptation to make them incredible druids and bards because they needed to be a race for any class. The Favored Class ability should cover that. Also, the special move should not equal the normal move. Either they favor walking or they favor climbing. No species is equally talented at multiple movements. Take Penguins as a perfect example for that. Still, I see what you're trying to show. Let me toy with it. Maybe I'll watch Rise of the Plant of the Apes this weekend...

[Recherché]

-puts on primatologist (primatology student to be exact)-

In real life monkeys are quite strong for they're size so a strength penalty seems inappropriate to me. One of the interesting things about monkey psychology is that they are tremendously good at understanding and negotiating social relationships but not so great at understanding things logically. As one of my teachers put it "[monkeys] would make great anthropologists, and horrible physicists" To me that translates to a Wis or Cha bonus and an Int penalty, but YMMV.
Anyways a strength penalty seems.completely inappropriate for creatures that are stronger than humans pound for pound. Likewise a Dex bonus seems little off; while monkeys may seem very coordinated, they're actually not all that amazing. Human pedal walking requires.just as great or greater balance. Part of why monkeys look so dexterous to us is that they're literally built for hampering around trees and as such have some different joint adjustments than humans, however these same joint differences make it near impossible for.monkeys to perform certain tasks that humans take for granted, such as throwing accurately. No non-human primate can play baseball, simply because they're shoulders aren't built for it.

Whew
-takes off primatologist hat and campers back to corner-

[Strormer]

-puts on primatologist (primatology student to be exact)-

In real life monkeys are quite strong for they're size so a strength penalty seems inappropriate to me. One of the interesting things about monkey psychology is that they are tremendously good at understanding and negotiating social relationships but not so great at understanding things logically. As one of my teachers put it "[monkeys] would make great anthropologists, and horrible physicists" To me that translates to a Wis or Cha bonus and an Int penalty, but YMMV.
Anyways a strength penalty seems.completely inappropriate for creatures that are stronger than humans pound for pound. Likewise a Dex bonus seems little off; while monkeys may seem very coordinated, they're actually not all that amazing. Human pedal walking requires.just as great or greater balance. Part of why monkeys look so dexterous to us is that they're literally built for hampering around trees and as such have some different joint adjustments than humans, however these same joint differences make it near impossible for.monkeys to perform certain tasks that humans take for granted, such as throwing accurately. No non-human primate can play baseball, simply because they're shoulders aren't built for it.

Whew
-takes off primatologist hat and campers back to corner-

^_^ Capital, another scholar.
<--- Archaeology

How about this then...

Spoiler

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+2 Wis, -2 Int:

Small Size

Speed: 30ft.

Brachiation: Can move through trees at normal move speed and ignores difficult terrain in wooded areas.

Naturally Agile: +2 Balance, Jump, Swim, Climb, and Tumble

Low-Light Vision

Languages; Automatic: Common and Sylvan, Bonus: Terran, Auran, Aquan, Elven, Gnome, Giant, and Yuan Ti.

Favored Class: Druid

I kept the Naturally Agile ability since the default skill checks are based on Humans/Humanoids.

[Recherché]

-doffs hat in Strormer's direction-
That looks much accurate and awesome to me. Plus imagine the fun in sending the players to meet with a high level Droid, and they find a monkey sitting in a nest of leaves in the canopy eating fermented fruit. (Fun fact, new world monkeys are the only creature besides humans who intentionally get drunk. To do this they pick ripe fruit, cache it in a safe place, wait for it to ferment, and then once its properly alcoholic eat eat it till they're so drunk they can't properly brachiate.)

[hydroplatypus]

I have another idea for a race. (don't have many books so if similar race already exists tell me).

Awakened Skeletons

(if an awakenundead spell already exists use it instead). Basically the idea is that in one of the cities they are running low on soldiers, and need to get more, so they start animating skeletons. Once out of immediate peril the city still has (non-sentient) skeletons at its disposal. They then start sending them on dangerous missions as they are expendable. That being said these undead need leaders in order to preform these missions well, so the city decides to create an awaken undead spell to allow them to create commanders for their undead warriors. As they are sentient the city realized that it needed a way to ensure they wouldn't have an undead uprising on their hands so they tell these skeletons that after a 2 (?) years of service they are free to do as they wish.
Stats

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+2 dex, -2 charisma, -2 int

Medium or small (player choice)

+1 Natural armor if small, +2 if medium

1d3 claw attack if small, 1d4 if medium

automatically gains improved initiative feat

DR 5/bludgening

LA: (+0? +1? , not really sure)

Favored class: fighter

if anyone thinks any changes are necessary to these stats please suggest them

Edited for mistakes