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2011-07-19, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
I could've swore it was.Maybe it's in MM-IV or some WotC article for some inexplicable reason. I'll try to find it.
EDIT: Did some searching, found another thingamajob. Depending on what book you listen to, you may be able to drop single HD from any type.
Savage Species, pg 13:
1 HIT DIE CREATURES
A creature with a single Hit Die, like all standard-race characters,
gives up that Hit Die when it gains its first class level. This
makes such a creature somewhat different from other monster
characters. In general, It is most advantageous for a 1 Hit Die
creature with a +0 level adjustment to abandon its monster Hit
Die and take class levels. While this chapter has detailed rules
for each step of character creation, this sidebar collects the
important information for dealing with 1 Hit Die creatures.
When building a monster character from a 1 Hit Die creature,
determine its ability scores and the racial modifiers to
those scores normally. Upon taking a level in a class, the creature
gains that class's base save bonuses and base attack
bonus and loses the base save bonuses and base attack bonus
it had as a monster. The new monster character gains skill
points only from class levels, losing any that it had as a result
of its monster Hit Die, but any racial bonuses on skill checks
that the base creature was entitled to are retained. Multiply the
skill points for the character's first class level by 4, just as you
would for any standard-race character. A 1 Hit Die creature may
choose one feat, just like any other 1st-level character, and it
also gains any additional feats granted by its class level. It
retains any racial bonus feats of the base creature.
On the other hand, you may wish to keep that one monster
Hit Die. If you do so, the character gets the skill points shown
on Table 2–1 or Table 2–5 (and in Appendix 2: Compiled
Tables) regardless of its Intelligence score. But in that case, you
do not multiply the skill points gained from the character's first
class level by 4, because it is not a 1st-level character. The character
gets the same number of feats as the base creature.Last edited by Fax Celestis; 2011-07-19 at 11:31 AM.
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2011-07-19, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
But, it refers to total hit dice, not hit dice from class levels, etc.
Here is the quote that says they should be in there to begin with:
Originally Posted by SRDDex
SpoilerRegarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.
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2011-07-19, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Yup, that rule is what I was referring to. Monsters gain ability increases when their hit dice increase to a multiple of four. Any increases they would have gained for their initial Racial Hit Dice are not gained, because they are already included in their base ability scores (and thus in their racial adjustments).
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2011-07-19, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
So a Troll Fighter2 would get to increase an ability score? That's fine, that is what I was thinking. I thought you were saying that a Troll would have to wait until class level 4 to increase.
Dex
SpoilerRegarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.
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2011-07-19, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2011-07-19, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Excellent guide that will be really useful, thank you very much for this handbook.
One thing:
Are you sure on that ? I always though that the DC of the abilities progress with all hit dice, racial or class level.
It's a rule from somwhere in the MM or did backward enginered it ?Last edited by zagan; 2011-07-19 at 05:10 PM.
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2011-07-19, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
It's probably a rule from somewhere, but it's most straightforward to see by reverse engineering. The Aboleth Mage, for example, has a save DC for its Slime and Mucus Cloud of 21, two higher than the 19 of the default Aboleth, because of its Con being four points higher, and despite having ten more hit dice.
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2011-07-19, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Here is the general rule:
Originally Posted by SRD, Reading the Monster EntriesDex
SpoilerRegarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.
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2011-07-19, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
What about a creature that doesn't have RHD? A Gravetouched Ghoul, for example, has Ghoul Paralysis, but no Ghoul HD. The description of GTG just says 10 + 1/2 GTG's HD + Cha. I'd assume in this case they are refering to non-racial HD? Then again, most other creature's just reference "monster X's HD" in a similar fashion.
What if the GTG has racial HD from another race before becoming a GTG? What if he was a Minotaur first (6 RHD worth of Monstrous Humanoid).
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2011-07-19, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
I think that, as a template, it is referring to the total HD of the GTG. This is the same argument that has it change all class HD to d12's.
Dex
SpoilerRegarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.
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2011-07-19, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
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2011-07-20, 04:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Latest homebrew: The Avatars of Magic, powerful monster each dedicated to ne school of magic.
My homebrewer's Extended Signature
My character :
Spoiler
Mirar, Bizarre human Focused Conjurer/Master specialist (summoning specialist)
Xilef, shifter Druid 8//Barbarian 5/Weretouched master 3
Other Character.
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2011-07-20, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-07-20, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Under Nonabilities, you may want to note that permanently incorporeal creatures have strength scores as a nonability.
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2011-07-20, 04:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Supercool badger-avatar by Xander Morhaime.
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2011-07-20, 04:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Nice handbook - a lot of good advice for players new to playing RHD/LA characters.
Are you going to touch on the cheesetastic notion of allowing permanent level drain to get rid of RHD (especially problematic when combined with LA buyoff)? It's something I would never let fly in any game I ran, but a lot of people seem to consider it fair game...Last edited by Thurbane; 2011-07-20 at 04:59 AM.
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2011-07-20, 05:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
I like how you point out that humans are not animals, you should do so also for vermin.
maybe an example using charm animal, charm person and charm monster?
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2011-07-20, 06:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
This is very, very great; helped me out a ton, despite it not even being finished yet. Heck, probably the most helpful handbook I've read yet (although, admittedly, I've read, like, four); going to show it to a friend who's also going to be DMing soon.
Out of curiosity, though, is there any way to handle a player wanting to be a somewhat "nonstandard" creature (one with LA: --)? As a hypothetical situation, of course.Last edited by Kojiro; 2011-07-20 at 06:08 AM.
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2011-07-20, 06:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Well, there are the homebrew Improved Monster Classes on the homebrew forums. The last big thread is here, after the mods stopped it due to disagreements on how it would be run, people split into their own threads, looking around the homebrew forums can find them, but the big thread has quite a lot of the monster classes, and also the guidelines that were used for the classes.
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2011-07-20, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
I was rereading an I have another question.
Because some skill give synergy bonus does this mean that if a monster gain a synergy bonus in one or more skill those skills automatically become class skills ?
For example a monster with 5 ranks in bluff automatically as diplomacy, disguise, intimidate and sleight of hand as class skills ? Particular if when calculating the bonus you realise that it's just the result of the synergy bonus plus the ability modifier ?Latest homebrew: The Avatars of Magic, powerful monster each dedicated to ne school of magic.
My homebrewer's Extended Signature
My character :
Spoiler
Mirar, Bizarre human Focused Conjurer/Master specialist (summoning specialist)
Xilef, shifter Druid 8//Barbarian 5/Weretouched master 3
Other Character.
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2011-07-20, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
This is really, really useful. I've got a friend who used to be in our party, but now DMs his own group that constantly screws this stuff up for his players.
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2011-07-20, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-07-20 at 01:26 PM.
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
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2011-07-20, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
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2011-07-20, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Speaking of, the way monsters handle class skills appears to be inconsistent!
Several monsters statted up as races lack skills listed in their statblock as class skills, for example the Satyr with Bluff synergy skills. Others have class skills that aren't listed anywhere else in their statblocks, like the Minotaur with Jump. And there are plenty of examples of creatures that really do have skills as class skills even though they only get bonuses to the skill via feats (Unicorn) or synergy (Lammasu). The situation is ambiguous! As such I'm going to end up suggesting "every skill in the description" as a general rule for when there isn't an explicitly different way to do it.Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2011-07-20, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Latest homebrew: The Avatars of Magic, powerful monster each dedicated to ne school of magic.
My homebrewer's Extended Signature
My character :
Spoiler
Mirar, Bizarre human Focused Conjurer/Master specialist (summoning specialist)
Xilef, shifter Druid 8//Barbarian 5/Weretouched master 3
Other Character.
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2011-07-20, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
I don't think synergy bonuses are listed , thus making things a skill. I always thought of it as "things in their statblock." I'm not quite sure I worded that coherently, so I'll use an example with one of my favorite creatures: The protean.
In its stat block Under "skills", we see that it has bluff +59. If we reverse engineer this to see how many skill points it has in bluff, we do 59(its total bonus)-12(bonus from very high CHA)=47 (and I make a silent cheer as I realize all of bluff's synergies move outward). So it put 47 ranks in Bluff (the limit for its 44 HD). Having 5 or more ranks in Bluff gives a +2 to sleight of hand. So, while not listed, a protean has a bonus on sleight of hand checks of +15 (+2 synergy, +13 high Dex). However, this is not listed on their statblock. I assume this is because they do not have sleight of hand as a class skill, even though they have bonuses to it.
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2011-07-20, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Actually, I'm fairly certain Slight of Hand is trained-only. That said, look at the Lammasu. The Lammasu's Diplomacy bonus is pure synergy, and yet the advanced Lammasu has level+3 ranks. The Unicorn is another example, with only Skill Focus(Survival) but no ranks, yet being able to raise it to max ranks despite only gaining unicorn and cleric hit dice. Edit: Also the Doppleganger.
Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-07-20 at 03:02 PM.
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2011-07-20, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
D'oh, your right about Sleight of Hand being trained only. I can't really tell whether we are in agreement or disagreement here, so I'll try rewording for accuracy and using your example:
"Any skill that actually appears in the statblock, regardless of where bonuses to it come from or whether it actually put any points into that skill, is a class skill."
Now for your Lammasu example: The base example gets 5 skill points per level (magical beast 2 +3 int bonus). So it can "max out" five skills. In its skill section, we see that it does (concentration, knowledge(arcana), listen, sense motive, and spot). However, it also lists diplomacy, which it has no points in. So (at least I think), thise means it has six class skills (concentration,diplomacy, knowledge(arcana), listen, sense motive, and spot), but not enough skill points to put points in one of them (diplomacy). Now, for the "advanced lammasu" (I assume you mean the golden protector), WotC realized that it would gain a heck of a lot more skill points than before (dragon HD gives 6+4 from boosted int). So, instead of giving it ranks in skills cross-class, they gave it more class skills until it had enough skills for its skill points (adding survival, spellcraft, knowledge(the planes), search). So, a "golden protector" actually counts as an entirely different monster for advancing it, seeing how the dragon hit dice has better HD (d12), more skill points, better saves and BAB (all good, full), and this creature in specific seems to have more class skills.
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2011-07-20, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Blargh, you're right, they expanded its class skills for no justified reason. It isn't all that different from the Minotaur really, that has Jump as a class skill despite it never appearing in the statblock. Anyway, the Doppleganger is apparently a better example of a synergy bonus giving rise to a class skill.
What all this illustrates is that class skills are an idiosyncratic business. Since the only rule we have to go on is the "every skill in its statblock" rule, that's what I'll be using.Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2011-07-20, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook
Really well put together and understandable. I wish I didn't already know all of this so I could learn it earlier.
Reserve Post #5 you can use to explain racial class levels (like those of Savage Species.) I had to explain to my DM that the progressive template for Draconic Creature to Dragon in RoD did not provide Hit Dice, and thus no HP, BaB, skills or Saves advancements, and maybe a system to divide racial classes for the monster races that don't have one, or it's poorly done (not giving all of the racial features, forcing the 1 Racial HD creatures to take that RHD, ect.)