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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Groverfield View Post
    Really well put together and understandable. I wish I didn't already know all of this so I could learn it earlier.

    Reserve Post #5 you can use to explain racial class levels (like those of Savage Species.) I had to explain to my DM that the progressive template for Draconic Creature to Dragon in RoD did not provide Hit Dice, and thus no HP, BaB, skills or Saves advancements, and maybe a system to divide racial classes for the monster races that don't have one, or it's poorly done (not giving all of the racial features, forcing the 1 Racial HD creatures to take that RHD, ect.)
    Actually, I've already included those classes in the Myth #1: Savage Species Will Save the Day! Section. The fifth post is going to be advice about shapeshifting (mostly emphasizing that hit dice aren't gained), as well as a few topics germane to monsters suggested by the community (for example, I might put the level draining hit dice trick there).
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Go Urpriest! Instead of staying up correcting someone who's wrong on the internet, I instead stayed up and watched someone else do the correcting

    I have minor disagreements with two things: I could swear I've read an official ruling that says you can in fact counterspell with spell-like abilities (though it may have been that you could only counterspell that specific ability with itself), and I feel that when you say that the level adjustment is what pays for the features of your racial hit dice, you should also mention that it pays for your cool monster abilities and large stat bonuses. It should be fairly obvious, but as they say on the first page: this guide assumes nothing.

    (And if these have already been addressed, well mnyeh. It's 7am and I can't be arsed to read the whole thread, I need to sleep)

    Edit: oh hey, mention of shapeshifting secition. I assume you will address how the spells refer to special attacks and special abilities separately? And of course the differences between standard errata'd polymorph, the new subschool spells, and the poser spells like Displacer Form that give a set of adjustments and a cosmetic change. Might be worth linking another guide for all that. If you haven't done so when I check back in then I'll try and dig it out of my bookmarks.
    Last edited by Fizban; 2011-07-21 at 09:00 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Go Urpriest! Instead of staying up correcting someone who's wrong on the internet, I instead stayed up and watched someone else do the correcting

    I have minor disagreements with two things: I could swear I've read an official ruling that says you can in fact counterspell with spell-like abilities (though it may have been that you could only counterspell that specific ability with itself), and I feel that when you say that the level adjustment is what pays for the features of your racial hit dice, you should also mention that it pays for your cool monster abilities and large stat bonuses. It should be fairly obvious, but as they say on the first page: this guide assumes nothing.

    (And if these have already been addressed, well mnyeh. It's 7am and I can't be arsed to read the whole thread, I need to sleep)
    For that first, the SRD is very explicit:
    Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
    For the second, I agree, that's relevant. The only reason I emphasize the features at that point is because I've just spent a while listing how cool they are.
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I have minor disagreements with two things: I could swear I've read an official ruling that says you can in fact counterspell with spell-like abilities (though it may have been that you could only counterspell that specific ability with itself)
    An addendum to what Urpriest said, in that Dispel Magic and spells derived from it have a specific Counterspell function, which in this case is a Specific rule that overrides the General rule. There was a thread about it that talked about this a couple weeks ago discussing that point at length and I'm fairly sure that was the general consensus, given the Warlock Invocations that mimic Dispel Magic seem to have been assumed to work that way.

    Also, I must say I approve for having something that's eminently clear where many of the MMs and other monster sources are fairly not so much. Bravo, sir, bravo!
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2011-07-21 at 08:18 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    do note, (cohort) is actually meaningless -- it says that the monster in question is suited to be a cohort, not unsuited to being a player character, mostly because of size and lack of opposable thumbs, iirc. nothing prevents playing them, although it might be somewhat difficult.

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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    do note, (cohort) is actually meaningless -- it says that the monster in question is suited to be a cohort, not unsuited to being a player character, mostly because of size and lack of opposable thumbs, iirc. nothing prevents playing them, although it might be somewhat difficult.
    There may be no explicit rule, but every section that describes what that annotation means specifies that creatures with it are normally not suitable as player characters.

    On that note, Handbook Complete! I'll be looking through the suggestions already on this thread to see what I've missed. Feel free to suggest and critique, especially in terms of material for the Transforming and Rolling Out section.
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Handbook Complete!
    *glee*

    I do have a question on templates though, as you say that total HD is used for determining abilities granted for those templates that do such. My question is if this only applies when you get the template or whether you gain new features from the template as you advance in HD?

    Take Feral for example. When a character hits the next break point, does it automatically get Pounce?
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    *glee*

    I do have a question on templates though, as you say that total HD is used for determining abilities granted for those templates that do such. My question is if this only applies when you get the template or whether you gain new features from the template as you advance in HD?

    Take Feral for example. When a character hits the next break point, does it automatically get Pounce?
    Generally, it means those abilities scale. Do note that feral only counts rhd, though.

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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Generally, it means those abilities scale. Do note that feral only counts rhd, though.
    I'm looking at the template, it just says HD, not racial, unless it got errata'd at some point.
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Well done, Urpriest. Thanks for mentioning my guide in your guide.

    I have a few advanced statblocks I've made, if you are interested. I have a CR6 huge Gelatinous Cube and a couple of CR2 advanced Spellwarped Pseudonatural Bombardeer Beetles. I'm working on a few others, I can post at a later point.
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I'm looking at the template, it just says HD, not racial, unless it got errata'd at some point.
    "It gains special attacks indicated at the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice," So at least the RAWest way of looking at it, it gains special attacks based on RHD, and special qualities based on all HD.

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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    "It gains special attacks indicated at the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice," So at least the RAWest way of looking at it, it gains special attacks based on RHD, and special qualities based on all HD.
    Missed that line. Whoops.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    *glee*

    I do have a question on templates though, as you say that total HD is used for determining abilities granted for those templates that do such. My question is if this only applies when you get the template or whether you gain new features from the template as you advance in HD?

    Take Feral for example. When a character hits the next break point, does it automatically get Pounce?
    Clarified that matter in the guide. Thanks for pointing it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Well done, Urpriest. Thanks for mentioning my guide in your guide.

    I have a few advanced statblocks I've made, if you are interested. I have a CR6 huge Gelatinous Cube and a couple of CR2 advanced Spellwarped Pseudonatural Bombardeer Beetles. I'm working on a few others, I can post at a later point.
    While a bunch of monster statblocks would probably be excessive, I could see one or two particularly inventive ones finding a home in the Roll Out section.
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  14. - Top - End - #74

    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote on the not gaining ability score increases? Similarly for the not using the size table for the stat bonuses. (keep in mind that enlarge person is a specific trumping general and is actually a crappy way to gain size)

    You should explain both my ECL variant and my '-- templates for PCs only' discussion for why monsters should never be given PC class levels by the DM.

    All in all a nice nooby-friendly guide even if a lot of exceptions are not m

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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by PlzBreakMyCmpAn View Post
    Quote on the not gaining ability score increases? Similarly for the not using the size table for the stat bonuses. (keep in mind that enlarge person is a specific trumping general and is actually a crappy way to gain size)

    You should explain both my ECL variant and my '-- templates for PCs only' discussion for why monsters should never be given PC class levels by the DM.

    All in all a nice nooby-friendly guide even if a lot of exceptions are not m
    For size, the Adding a Template Step By Step section (unfortunately appears to be absent from the SRD) says that only natural armor and basic size bonuses are automatic, and that a template will say whether or not you apply size modifiers, as they may be factored in to the ability scores already.

    For ability scores, Link. In particular,
    Ability Score Improvement

    Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.
    I'm not familiar with your ECL variant, but if it's described approachably in the link in your sig I might put mention of it in the Roll Out section. I will not mention your idea that monsters should never be given PC class levels because it is an abomination unto everything this guide stands for (and not the fun kind of abomination), and few to no playgrounders think that besides you. Monsters are just like you!
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    J E L L O! ITS ALIVE!

    Advanced Gelatinous Cube
    Size: Huge
    HD: 16d10+144 (232 hp)
    Initiative: -5
    Speed: 15 ft
    AC: 1, Touch 1, Flat 1)
    BAB/Grab: +12/+20
    Attack: Slam +10 (1d6+1d6 Acid)
    Full Attack: Slam +10 (1d6+1d6 Acid)
    Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft
    Special Attacks: Acid, Engulf, Paralysis
    Special Qualities: Blindsight 60’, Immune to Electricity, Ooze Traits, Transparent
    Saves: F+13 R+0 W+0
    Abilities: Str 10 Dex - Con 29 Int - Wis 1 Cha 1
    Skills: -
    Feats: -
    CR: 6

    Acid (Ex)
    A gelatinous cube’s acid does not harm metal or stone.
    Engulf (Ex)
    Although it moves slowly, a gelatinous cube can simply mow down Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The gelatinous cube merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the cube, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 19 Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the cube moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the cube’s paralysis and acid, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a +1 racial bonus.
    Paralysis (Ex)
    A gelatinous cube secretes an anesthetizing slime. A target hit by a cube’s melee or engulf attack must succeed on a DC 27 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 3d6 rounds. The cube can automatically engulf a paralyzed opponent. The save DC is Constitution-based.
    Transparent (Ex)
    Gelatinous cubes are hard to see, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a DC 15 Spot check to notice one. Creatures who fail to notice a cube and walk into it are automatically engulfed.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    One thing of note for shapeshifting magic, you do not gain the creature feat and a fair number of monster (notably animal) have the improved natural attack feat so you need to remove it's benefit to obtain the damage dealt by the natural weapon you gain this way. This apply to other feat as well, improved critical come to mind.
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by zagan View Post
    One thing of note for shapeshifting magic, you do not gain the creature feat and a fair number of monster (notably animal) have the improved natural attack feat so you need to remove it's benefit to obtain the damage dealt by the natural weapon you gain this way. This apply to other feat as well, improved critical come to mind.
    That's an important point. Though I'm not sure Improved Critical is usually factored in to the Attack: line.

    @Keld: Could you provide some analysis about why this particular example of advancement is interesting/a brief explanation of what you did? If it's around for educational purposes it should be accompanied by some explanation.
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    I've found an example of monster with improve critical, the elder earth elmental and the change is indicated in the stat block.
    I can't think of any other feat that would directly modify a natural attack but perhaps there's more somewhere.
    In any case I'm glad I could help, again great work.
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    That 'Adding a Template Step By Step' section is actually MM1 291. It is poorly written, referencing things that do not exist the way they say they do even after three patches of errata. Good thing it doesn't overwrite or contradict the other rules.

    For ability scores, the HD advancement part does give stat boosts. Also when reverse-engineering lower HD versions of races the built-in stat boosts from the RHD are taken into account.

    About my idea that monsters should never be given PC class levels being an abomination unto everything this guide stands for I hope that your DMs throw my Codzilla build at you ;)

    My balanced ECL variant (so you can actually play high ECL creatures) is here. I would put it in my sig but that has already been edited, etc enough that I'm not going to touch it lest the mo
    Last edited by PlzBreakMyCmpAn; 2011-07-23 at 08:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I have minor disagreements with two things: I could swear I've read an official ruling that says you can in fact counterspell with spell-like abilities (though it may have been that you could only counterspell that specific ability with itself), and I feel that when you say that the level adjustment is what pays for the features of your racial hit dice, you should also mention that it pays for your cool monster abilities and large stat bonuses. It should be fairly obvious, but as they say on the first page: this guide assumes nothing.
    I believe you are referring to this article here.

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040420a

    More specifically, this clause here.
    A spell-like ability cannot be used as a counterspell, and it is not subject to counterspells. A counterspell involves recognizing a spell as it is being cast, then quickly altering that same spell so as to create an opposite effect that cancels out the original spell. A spell-like ability is essentially hardwired into its user's psyche, and its power is released mentally. The process is sufficiently different from spellcasting so it that doesn't allow a foe to identify the spell-like ability, and a counterspell cannot interfere with the spell-like ability's magical energy as it can with a spell. As noted earlier, a spell-like ability is subject to dispelling (provided the spell it duplicates is subject to dispelling). When a spell-like ability can be dispelled (as most of them are) one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell. While spell-like abilities are not normally subject to counterspells, dispel magic is not really a counterspell. When you use dispel magic as a counterspell, what you're really doing is casting a quick, targeted dispel effect at the correct moment to negate the enemy spell and not creating an opposite magical effect that cancels your enemy's spell.
    So it is in fact suggesting that if a monster had dispel magic as a SLA, he could in fact use it to counterspell. Make of it what you will.
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by PlzBreakMyCmpAn View Post
    That 'Adding a Template Step By Step' section is actually MM1 291. It is poorly written, referencing things that do not exist the way they say they do even after three patches of errata. Good thing it doesn't overwrite or contradict the other rules.

    For ability scores, the HD advancement part does give stat boosts. Also when reverse-engineering lower HD versions of races the built-in stat boosts from the RHD are taken into account.

    About my idea that monsters should never be given PC class levels being an abomination unto everything this guide stands for I hope that your DMs throw my Codzilla build at you ;)

    My balanced ECL variant (so you can actually play high ECL creatures) is here. I would put it in my sig but that has already been edited, etc enough that I'm not going to touch it lest the mo
    That part of the Adding a Template section is indeed consistent with other rules, as far as I can see.

    HD advancement does indeed give stat boosts. In fact, the guide's wording on the subject was thought to be ambiguous, as was discussed earlier in the thread. Do you still find the language unclear? I've tried to edit it to be abundantly clear that the original RHD do not give stat boosts, but later advancement of HD does. Is there a particular section you find poorly worded?

    Edit: As to your ECL variant, there's some bad wording there (no race that I am aware of has spellcasting related to its racial hit dice, sans variants a level-drained Rakshasa still has its full Sorceror casting), but the basic rule is simple enough. Almost too simple...

    Edit Edit: Is the HD in the formula intended to be total or racial? If the latter, you do realize your formula gives free templates for all, right? If the former, you're throwing off the entire experience chart.
    Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-07-23 at 09:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    While a bunch of monster statblocks would probably be excessive, I could see one or two particularly inventive ones finding a home in the Roll Out section.
    Could just link this thread and others like it.

    I'd link this one too, but I'm biased.

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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Hm, I have one remaining question. Maybe I have missed it somewhere.

    If a monster has a spell-like ability and that spells effect varies according to caster level (like the damage of a fireball), how is the monsters caster level determined?
    Last edited by Zombimode; 2011-07-25 at 07:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Hm, I have one remaining question. Maybe I have missed it somewhere.

    If a monster has a spell-like ability and that spells effect varies according to caster level (like the damage of a fireball), how is the monsters caster level determined?
    It's always in the entry. But I should mention that.

    Edit: when it isn't, it defaults to Hit Dice.
    Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-07-25 at 07:58 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #86

    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    That part of the Adding a Template section is indeed consistent with other rules, as far as I can see.

    HD advancement does indeed give stat boosts. In fact, the guide's wording on the subject was thought to be ambiguous, as was discussed earlier in the thread. Do you still find the language unclear? I've tried to edit it to be abundantly clear that the original RHD do not give stat boosts, but later advancement of HD does. Is there a particular section you find poorly worded?

    Edit: As to your ECL variant, there's some bad wording there (no race that I am aware of has spellcasting related to its racial hit dice, sans variants a level-drained Rakshasa still has its full Sorceror casting), but the basic rule is simple enough. Almost too simple...

    Edit Edit: Is the HD in the formula intended to be total or racial? If the latter, you do realize your formula gives free templates for all, right? If the former, you're throwing off the entire experience chart.
    in order:

    "A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below." I swear I point this out in every 'size' thread. Though I'll admit once a GitP poster beat me to it.

    "but they don't gain ability score increases every four levels like you do." They do but they don't gain it from their 'base' RHD twice, since it is already included in their statblock

    Its racial. I had it all say RHD but people always asked, "I know what HD are but what is RHD?" I got sick of answering. You can see in the sixth and seventh rule where I got lazy. I'll at the 'R's for you below.

    I can't find that wording but it does sound like my babble for common sense rule 1 :) I'll requote it so you see what I see. But I'll go ahead and clean it up again anyways:

    Quote Originally Posted by PlzBreakMyCmpAn View Post
    ECL = Floor[RHD/2 - Racial LA] + Total LA + Class levels
    (with common sense restrictions)
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    0) This variant is done on a character by character basis. Some in the party might use this but, not all must. This is why its a 'variant' and is actually useful.

    1) If a race has racial spellcasting related to its racial HD, remove that abilities racial power source up to it's RHD. For instance a psychic Illithid would have no psuedo psion levels but a Spellweaver would still have 2 psuedo sorcerer levels. Remember that this variant is done in a character by character basis allowing a psionic illithid to not use this variant while a spellweaver in the party may chose it.

    2) BAB may not exceed ECL and RHD's BAB may not be used for prereqs. This makes the RHD's BAB feel like a "practiced BAB" feat since it adds for future, non-BAB-progressing class levels. This obviously stops BAB from exceeding 20 pre-epic. It turns out this doesn't really matter much even if the 21 and 26th BAB gave more iterations. Astute DM's will notice that the ability to hit things a few more times, or even enter non-caster classes early (as casters already do with reckless abandon) is actually a boon to their game's balance. Even if initially counter-intuitive DMs are encouraged to waive this restriction.

    3) Skill points from racial HD do not allow a character to exceed the normal 3+ECL max since the HD no longer count towards the ECL. For most cases, this is surprisingly not that needed of a restriction considering the other RAW ways to exceed this cap. Therefore, DMs are encouraged to waive this restriction

    4) Skill points for the first level are not added twice. A character with aberration/construct/elemental/giant/humanoid/magic beast/monstrous humanoid/ooze/plant racial HD and one class level may must use the crappy 4x(2+int) for their starting skill point allotment rather than chose their lovely 4x(8+int) rogue class levels as the starting skill points. DMs are encouraged to waive this restriction

    5) The racial HD does not get con bonus to HP as class levels do. DMs are encouraged to waive this restriction if they want PCs with above average amounts of HP since HP is way too low compared to the damage both PCs and Monsters can receive anyways.

    6) Natural healing rate is based off of ECL and so is not affected by the free racial HD, though this might seem a bit counter intuitive. If you want the RHD to help, it shouldn't make much of a difference, so DMs are encouraged to waive this restriction for any players not abusing natural healing rates. Heck, even if they are they will still be screwed by SoDs.

    7) Per level option of LA or RHD counting towards the required level for buyoff. This makes buyoffs happen a bit earlier, which in turn helps the 99% of monsters with over-inflated LAs become playable. It goes without saying that players who use restoration cheese need a single iteration cap on each buyoff tier's level per LA row in the chart.
    Keep in mind that I am redefining what ECL is, so it in fact uses the experience table normal per the newly defined ECL. You just have extra HD or what not, like a party with a warforged bard who likes to keep his allies ready to fight even at night with his inspire cou
    Last edited by PlzBreakMyCmpAn; 2011-07-26 at 07:32 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by PlzBreakMyCmpAn View Post
    in order:

    "A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below." I swear I point this out in every 'size' thread. Though I'll admit once a GitP poster beat me to it.
    There are two possible answers to this, the one I would deploy to the people this thread is targeted to, and the one I would deploy to Curmudgeon. You may choose:
    1. That section refers to size increases gained from advancing hit dice, as the sentence before it shows.
    2. "A size increase" increase is a nouning of a verb. Therefore it does not refer to the normal definition of the word (since it would be an improper usage if so), but rather a game term. The game term "size increase" is defined in the previous sentence as that which happens when a monster advances in hit dice.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlzBreakMyCmpAn View Post
    "but they don't gain ability score increases every four levels like you do." They do but they don't gain it from their 'base' RHD twice, since it is already included in their statblock
    Are you claiming they gain it from their 'base' RHD once? Since by your own admission it's already included in their statblock (and hence their racial bonuses, unless you have a source for Fax's rule), I don't see how this could ever come up. Or is this merely a technical point? If so I concede your point, but I believe that mentioning it would only add confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlzBreakMyCmpAn View Post
    Its racial. I had it all say RHD but people always asked, "I know what HD are but what is RHD?" I got sick of answering. You can see in the sixth and seventh rule where I got lazy. I'll at the 'R's for you below.

    I can't find that wording but it does sound like my babble for common sense rule 1 :) I'll requote it so you see what I see:



    Keep in mind that I am redefining what ECL is, so it in fact uses the experience table normal per the newly defined ECL. You just have extra HD or what not, like a party with a warforged bard who likes to keep his allies ready to fight even at night with his inspire cou
    Could you explain what you mean by Floor then? Normally Floor simply rounds down to the next lowest integer, do you intend to round to the next lowest natural number?
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  28. - Top - End - #88

    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Take a look back at my post. You were speedier than I realized. I was still making things pretty for you

    Again in order. The size part discussion is sounding like semantics. 1) the previous sentence is a different paragraph or atleast has a break 2) dictionary.com lists 3 entries for increase as a noun. But really I'd say that my interpretation is better (since that's the argument) because A) it makes sense. Bigger things being stronger and tougher but less agile, B) it adds depth to the game C) it easily helps melees (although admittedly it can help cunning min-maxed casters) D) it makes the game make less sense when certain size-granting templates follow the above logic but others don't, ie. you are bigger now so you should therefore be stronger and tougher but less agile -- but only if you get bigger this way E) many templates mention the size table as if the player should already know to be using it: "a size increase also changes the following:" I know of no examples that do the opposite: aka 'this template is special in that it gives you the size modifiers too'

    phew. I hope you appreciate the lengths here.

    Yes I mentioned that many exceptions are not given in this thread. Reversing HD and subtracting stat bonus gains from RHD is the only time you'd need to worry about what's included in the statblock.

    "Normally Floor simply rounds down to the next lowest integer" That would be how I am using it too. If you need some examples I can show you more than just this one that no one would ever play non-level drained without my balance ECL variant:

    Bugbear (3RHD, 1LA): ECL = Floor[3/2 - 1] + (1) + (Class levels)
    ECL = Floor[1.5 - 1] + 1 + Class levels
    ECL = Floor[.5] + 1 + Class levels
    ECL = (0) + (1) + (Class levels)
    ECL = 1 + Class levels

    this essentially means those 3RHD are 'free' but the LA still has to be bought off. Not bad for six stat point boosts. Almost enough to make you not sad you are an ugly bear gobl
    Last edited by PlzBreakMyCmpAn; 2011-07-25 at 08:23 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by PlzBreakMyCmpAn View Post
    Take a look back at my post. You were speedier than I realized. I was still making things pretty for you

    Again in order. The size part discussion is sounding like semantics. 1) the previous sentence is a different paragraph or atleast has a break 2) dictionary.com lists 3 entries for increase as a noun. But really I'd say that my interpretation is better (since that's the argument) because A) it makes sense. Bigger things being stronger and tougher but less agile, B) it adds depth to the game C) it easily helps melees (although admittedly it can help cunning min-maxed casters) D) it makes the game make less sense when certain size-granting templates follow the above logic but others don't, ie. you are bigger now so you should therefore be stronger and tougher but less agile -- but only if you get bigger this way E) many templates mention the size table as if the player should already know to be using it: "a size increase also changes the following:" I know of no examples that do the opposite: aka 'this template is special in that it gives you the size modifiers too'

    phew. I hope you appreciate the lengths here.

    Yes I mentioned that many exceptions are not given in this thread. Reversing HD and subtracting stat bonus gains from RHD is the only time you'd need to worry about what's included in the statblock.

    "Normally Floor simply rounds down to the next lowest integer" That would be how I am using it too. If you need some examples I can show you more than just this one that no one would ever play non-level drained without my balance ECL variant:

    Bugbear (3RHD, 1LA): ECL = Floor[3/2 - 1] + (1) + (Class levels)
    ECL = Floor[1.5 - 1] + 1 + Class levels
    ECL = Floor[.5] + 1 + Class levels
    ECL = (0) + (1) + (Class levels)
    ECL = 1 + Class levels

    this essentially means those 3RHD are 'free' but the LA still has to be bought off. Not bad for six stat point boosts. Almost enough to make you not sad you are an ugly bear gobl
    In reverse order, because it's late and I'm odd:

    Ugly bear goblins are awesome and should never be sad.

    However, here's the issue: say I have no RHD. Say I'm a Vampire. Your formula gives:
    ECL = Floor[0-8] + (8) + (Class levels)
    ECL = Floor[-8] + (8) + (Class levels)
    ECL = (-8) + (8) +(Class levels)
    ECL = (Class levels)
    ECL = I am now a Vampire absolutely for free. Also, any other template.

    Is that intentional?

    Reversing HD...like with level drain? While I suppose that could happen, there's no way to figure out which abilities you added your boosts to. Much as I love technically impossible to apply rules, they don't fit the audience of this guide.

    Examples and/or Counterexamples for size increasing templates are hard. MMII is a 3.0 source, and hence built under a somewhat different monster building regimen, but has Titanic give +36 Str to a toad, not the +70 that your method would indicate. I'm looking for a 3.5 example now.

    Edit: Actually, aren't many of the Lycanthropes viable examples? Many change the creature's size from Medium to Large, and yet give only the ability increases mentioned in the template.

    EditEdit: On the other hand, Half-Goristro seems to be a legitimate counterexample. On the other other hand, it explicitly states that all of the modifiers in that table are included. I feel like that guy from Fiddler on the Roof.

    Basically: find me an example of a template that increases size and doesn't explicitly instruct the user to follow the table, yet includes that ability increase. If you're arguing that it should apply for things that aren't templates (spells etc.) then a single example of a statblock containing such will do. Otherwise I stand by my claim that it should be explicitly mentioned either way, defaulting to not applying.
    Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-07-25 at 09:06 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

    floor(rhd/2-la)+la is, when dealing with real integers la, identical to floor(rhd/2). I do hope you have a real integer there.

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