LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

[Yora]

Something I found hilariously funny:

Spoiler

Show

[golentan]

The... Buh... The sheer dehumanizing narcissism it would take to even wonder that is... my mind may be broken.

[Partysan]

Heh. Nice answer. I love it. But how can someone actually ask that question?

*picks up the splinters of golentan's mind, pats them gently and tries to reassemble them*
Here, as good as new. Your mind might be somewhat dirty now, but I guess it isn't much of a change.

[Eurus]

I assume it's a joke, like I assume My Immortal is a trollfic. Less brain-melting than the alternative, to be sure.

[Murdim]

The... Buh... The sheer dehumanizing narcissism it would take to even wonder that is... my mind may be broken.

If the Internet was Middle-Earth, Yahoo! Answers would be Moria. The crumbling remnant of a once great and prosperous empire, now a place of great evil inhabited by barbarians and infested with trolls.

So, yeah, no need to break your mind.

[Partysan]

I assume it's a joke, like I assume My Immortal is a trollfic. Less brain-melting than the alternative, to be sure.

Calling Poe's Law will protect your brain, but I'd never underestimate the boundlessness of human ignorance and bigotry.

[Worlok]

If the Internet was Middle-Earth, Yahoo! Answers would be Moria. The crumbling remnant of a once great and prosperous empire, now a place of great evil inhabited by barbarians and infested with trolls.

You mean it isn't? Does that mean I'll lose my ringwraith license now? I'll also have to yoink that quote for later, folks.

[Lix Lorn]

is it a bird (as in an objectifying name for a female)? is it a man (pronounced to rhyme with plane so that this reference works)? no, it's Dr Androgynous!

But really

What are the good doctor's powers, some sort of androgyniser ray or does (s)he just have an androgynous motif, like Batman has a bat motif? Preferred pronoun, if any? THESE QUESTIONS ARE KEEPING ME UP.

So is their archnemesis Professor Heteronormative?

Something tells me we've had this conversation before. O_o

...
I approve. ^_^
Hooray for a thousand words!

[Viera Champion]

I had a boyfriend for just over a month. It was long distance and thatturned out to be the reason he broke up with me. He said we could get back together when he could touch, hug, and kiss me.

[Lix Lorn]

That totally sucks. (Hugs)

[Viera Champion]

That totally sucks. (Hugs)

Yeah and apparently he feels crappy when I don't talk to him. Sigh... It is like "Do you want to go out with me or not, make up your mind."

[turkishproverb]

I had a boyfriend for just over a month. It was long distance and thatturned out to be the reason he broke up with me. He said we could get back together when he could touch, hug, and kiss me.

*Hugs* I feel for you. Long disstance is never easy, even breaking up.

[Qaera]

So is their archnemesis Professor Heteronormative?

Mmmmaybe. I'm thinking he's not nice enough to become a professor.

Well see now, when you make stuff like that, you'd asking for people to force you to do it regularly. Get to yonder Comic subforum!

Ah, I wish! Too much work!

Wait, if Doctor Androgynous is a superhero, does that mean they have a sidekick? And what would that sidekick be named?

Laser-Gun Boxing Tiger?

Isaac Nietche?

Prism?

Rainbow Kid?

Tell me! I have to know! You can't deny a toddler Kobold's request!

I'm not sure! I'll have to brainstorm it.

Something tells me we've had this conversation before. O_o

...
I approve. ^_^
Hooray for a thousand words!

I plundered into the depths of the LGBT archive and found this.

Thanks!

I had a boyfriend for just over a month. It was long distance and thatturned out to be the reason he broke up with me. He said we could get back together when he could touch, hug, and kiss me.

I also found this!


~ ♅

[DeadManSleeping]

DOCTOR Heteronormative

[Viera Champion]

Oh righhhhttttt!! I forgot about that... =p we had our secret PM love. =p Thank you very much for cheering me up.

Where is Jo(kasti) anyways. I miss him...

[Coidzor]

The... Buh... The sheer dehumanizing narcissism it would take to even wonder that is... my mind may be broken.

Heh. Nice answer. I love it. But how can someone actually ask that question?

*picks up the splinters of golentan's mind, pats them gently and tries to reassemble them*
Here, as good as new. Your mind might be somewhat dirty now, but I guess it isn't much of a change.

I believe the only possible answer is that this is what a Dread Solipsist looks like in the wild.

[DeadManSleeping]

Okay, this is a ramble. I'm not exactly sure where it's gonna go, but it's got some thoughts that I think might be relevant to this crowd.

Spoiler

Show

For whatever reason, I find myself drawn towards the LGBTA subculture. Yes, subculture. If you're offended by me calling it that, well, take it up with the people who decided to stick a label that applies to you onto a rainbow flag and hoist it up at parades. There's certainly a bond formed by being oppressed by Dr. Heteronormative and his dread minions. Which brings me back around to 'whatever reason'. I'm NOT on that end of things. I have absolutely no problem with this 'male' identity thing. Heck, I fit a lot of 'male' stereotypes. I'm crude, messy, have decent upper body strength despite poor exercise habits, et cetera. I also do the 'straight' thing where I enjoy breasts and vaginas in a very biological sense, and do not similarly enjoy penises. Now, perhaps you are thinking "why, that's not odd at all. A lot of fairly heteronormative people hang out here". But I'm just getting started.

The thing is, I really just don't 'get' sexual/gender identity. I am not what you would call 'androgynous'. If you asked me to express how I honestly felt about my identity, I would simply call myself male. If you then used some phlebtonium to switch my working parts around, I'd call myself female (I doubt I'd start liking males, but I don't know enough about biology OR psychology to guarantee that). And I just don't get how anyone could care to express otherwise.

If you called me a bad friend, I'd be hurt. If you called me cruel, or greedy, or lazy (even though that one's true), it would strike me at least a little, no matter how I tried to disregard you. If you even said that you didn't like my cookies, I would feel dismayed. But if you called me girly? Or kinda gay? Or anything like that? Nothing. I mean, not even a little. Of course, I'd correct anyone who thought I was gay if I didn't have to put much effort into it and I wasn't busy and I thought it mattered at the time. I hate to be inconveniencing anyone through a wrong impression. But I simply can't fathom why someone's image of my sexual/gender identity matters. And, by extension, I can't picture why it matters to anyone else.

I don't want to be raising any hackles here. Whether or not I get it, I know it's important to you folks. It's not wrong for it to be important. I'm most certainly in the minority of humanity for not caring how people see my gender/sex. But, y'know, I guess I kind of wish someone could explain to me how you can feel pained by someone calling you a 'boy' or a 'girl', how it can matter that someone called you 'him' or 'her'. I feel like I'm missing some perspective that's critical to understanding humanity. And if I don't understand it, how can I help the people who NEED to understand, who are in a position to hurt through their ignorance?

tl;dr I don't get why people even have sex/gender identity. Someone fix my brain plz.

[Yora]

Just yesterday I thought that LGBTAIP is becomming rediculously long and in some senses all these people have nothing in common. I think it's about time to change into an "Equal rights and recognition for all sexual identities" movement.
What does an assexual have to do with same sex relationships? Nothing. Except saying "leave me in peace, enforcers of heteronormative sexual identities!" A transsexual is something completely different then a homosexual, the only thing they have in common is ostracization because some people are not okay with others being different.
You don't have to be black to consider black people equal to white people or a women to consider women equal to men. And as a heterosexual man, you can still stand for the cause of equality among all sexual identities.

However, I do object to the notion of a "queer subculture". I don't share a style of clothing and haircut, an interest in music, movies, novels, or political view with other queers, or even seek others out to associate with them. By any definition of the word, I am not part of a sub-culture.
The situation outside of Europe may be different, where people still have to make the public understand that queers are not a tiny minority that can be forced into hiding. But I think here in Europe, the notion of a queer subculture is actually harmful in the struggle to gain full recognition and acceptance.
True acceptance can only come, when we are no longer regarded as "others". There must not be an "us" and "them". I think here in Europe in mainstream society (of course, with an exception for shady neighborhoods where people are assaulted for ethnicity or belonging to the wrong sub-culture, and also for being queer) we no longer have to work to be left alone and safe. Maybe it's because I'm from the educated middle-class, but I feel completely safe and have never experienced any form of hostility myself. What we want now is society to accept that we are not special or different. We want them to live with the understanding that sexual identity is a non-issue. And frankly, parades of loud people with offensive costumes does not help to make that point.
I am proudly an androgynous pansexual , but I do not want to be associated with those queer pride events. This makes us look like crazy freaks. There has been a time in which it was neccessary to force society to face the existance of queers, but now it is harmful to our cause. Outside of Europe, I can not say. American society seems so screwed up with hate speech being tollerated all the time, that I really have no idea what's actually going on. And I don't know about the situation in Africa, Asia, and South America. But here, I am offended by anything that makes sexual identity into a subculture.

Regarding the question of sexual identities: There's a field known as "gender studies" and I spend a lot of time researching what discoveries have been made so far. I'd summarize the current scientific knowledge as "Nobody knows!"
And well, as being androgynous and pansexual, I don't have any clue. I think it would have been great if humanity was a hermaphroditic species.

[Gardener]

Okay, this is a ramble. I'm not exactly sure where it's gonna go, but it's got some thoughts that I think might be relevant to this crowd.

Spoiler

Show

For whatever reason, I find myself drawn towards the LGBTA subculture. Yes, subculture. If you're offended by me calling it that, well, take it up with the people who decided to stick a label that applies to you onto a rainbow flag and hoist it up at parades. There's certainly a bond formed by being oppressed by Dr. Heteronormative and his dread minions. Which brings me back around to 'whatever reason'. I'm NOT on that end of things. I have absolutely no problem with this 'male' identity thing. Heck, I fit a lot of 'male' stereotypes. I'm crude, messy, have decent upper body strength despite poor exercise habits, et cetera. I also do the 'straight' thing where I enjoy breasts and vaginas in a very biological sense, and do not similarly enjoy penises. Now, perhaps you are thinking "why, that's not odd at all. A lot of fairly heteronormative people hang out here". But I'm just getting started.

The thing is, I really just don't 'get' sexual/gender identity. I am not what you would call 'androgynous'. If you asked me to express how I honestly felt about my identity, I would simply call myself male. If you then used some phlebtonium to switch my working parts around, I'd call myself female (I doubt I'd start liking males, but I don't know enough about biology OR psychology to guarantee that). And I just don't get how anyone could care to express otherwise.

If you called me a bad friend, I'd be hurt. If you called me cruel, or greedy, or lazy (even though that one's true), it would strike me at least a little, no matter how I tried to disregard you. If you even said that you didn't like my cookies, I would feel dismayed. But if you called me girly? Or kinda gay? Or anything like that? Nothing. I mean, not even a little. Of course, I'd correct anyone who thought I was gay if I didn't have to put much effort into it and I wasn't busy and I thought it mattered at the time. I hate to be inconveniencing anyone through a wrong impression. But I simply can't fathom why someone's image of my sexual/gender identity matters. And, by extension, I can't picture why it matters to anyone else.

I don't want to be raising any hackles here. Whether or not I get it, I know it's important to you folks. It's not wrong for it to be important. I'm most certainly in the minority of humanity for not caring how people see my gender/sex. But, y'know, I guess I kind of wish someone could explain to me how you can feel pained by someone calling you a 'boy' or a 'girl', how it can matter that someone called you 'him' or 'her'. I feel like I'm missing some perspective that's critical to understanding humanity. And if I don't understand it, how can I help the people who NEED to understand, who are in a position to hurt through their ignorance?

tl;dr I don't get why people even have sex/gender identity. Someone fix my brain plz.

your brain doesn't need too much fixing, and straight friends and allies are always cool - the truth is, most people are cisgendered and at least predominantly heterosexual, so we're not going to get very far as a movement if there wasn't a good approach for you to take - and it sounds like you're a lot closer than you think. Respecting people and their choices, and generally being a decent person to everyone around you, is a big part of being a good ally.

As for how it can hurt people to be mislabeled? That's often due to a phenomenon known as gender dysphoria, which can be described as a form of cognitive dissonance, where the person has to believe two contradictory things about their gender at the same time (they are male and female, bigendered and monogendered, or any number of other pairings). This can cause a great deal of stress and anxiety, and is a rather unpleasant thing to deal with. Pronouns and similar are important because trans* people have to deal with this all the time in their everyday lives, so they'd really prefer not to in the few explicitly supportive spaces.

Also, while you're not broken, you are rare. Most people would be terribly offended if you casually used the wrong gender when speaking about them, and nearly everyone would insist on a correction. Trans people are no different. Every mis-gendered encounter is one more little voice saying "You'll never be real". And when you're dealing with a population that has a ~40%* incidence of attempted suicide, sowing more little voices of doubt can do real harm.

*Numbers from the Injustice at Every Turn report from the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, published in February of this year.

[rakkoon]

About the gay subculture in Europe
we have gay bars, gay festivals, gay nightclubs, gay student organisations, gay sport championships, etc.
When I was around gay girls I asked them how many straight friends they had and I was always the only one.
So I'm not saying every gay person belongs in a subculture but there most definitively is a subculture, whether you want to belong to it or not.

And on that note I always found it strange that they wanted to be accepted for who they are but had no straight friends and always went out to gay pubs, parties, etc.

Still a big LGBTA supporter btw

[Gardener]

And on that note I always found it strange that they wanted to be accepted for who they are but had no straight friends and always went out to gay pubs, parties, etc.

Still a big LGBTA supporter btw

Because not everyone is as awesome as you?

I'm pretty sure that if I came out to my extended family in the immediate future, about half of them could well have a serious break with me over it. I can think of two or three friends who I'd lose outright, and a couple more I'm dubious on. And I come from a quite liberal/left-political background, and mostly choose friends who broadly match my social and political opinions. It's hardly surprising that most GLBT people have few non-GLBT friends - it's a lot less risky to make friends within the movement. And while we might be being overly cautious over this, and a lot of people would be good friends no matter our sexuality, the fact that a small percentage would do us physical harm for no more reason than our sexuality can make people a little risk-averse.

I seem to be in a ranting mood today. Sorry.

[Yora]

And on that note I always found it strange that they wanted to be accepted for who they are but had no straight friends and always went out to gay pubs, parties, etc.

I think it really depends on the individual situation. If you are forced to hide from persecution, there is nothing wrong in seeking out others in the same situation that can offer some degree of safety. And in the past, and probably still in many places today, this certainly is the case. And I think only as one big unified obnoxious group was it possible to force society to deal with the issue of queer repression.
But at least in the society I live in, this fight has been won. Some people may not like it, but society at large has accepted that we are there and they have to live with it. But now I want more. I want to be accepted as normal. And this can only be done when I don't make my sexual identity a fact that defines me. When I make the seperation of "us" and "them", how can I expect others to not do so?
Which puts me in a kind of akward position. It's because of the queer subculture that I never had to feel unsafe or discriminated. How can I now demand that they give up their culture because they are an obstacle in furthering our cause?

[Lissou]

Okay, this is a ramble. I'm not exactly sure where it's gonna go, but it's got some thoughts that I think might be relevant to this crowd.

Spoiler

Show

For whatever reason, I find myself drawn towards the LGBTA subculture. Yes, subculture. If you're offended by me calling it that, well, take it up with the people who decided to stick a label that applies to you onto a rainbow flag and hoist it up at parades. There's certainly a bond formed by being oppressed by Dr. Heteronormative and his dread minions. Which brings me back around to 'whatever reason'. I'm NOT on that end of things. I have absolutely no problem with this 'male' identity thing. Heck, I fit a lot of 'male' stereotypes. I'm crude, messy, have decent upper body strength despite poor exercise habits, et cetera. I also do the 'straight' thing where I enjoy breasts and vaginas in a very biological sense, and do not similarly enjoy penises. Now, perhaps you are thinking "why, that's not odd at all. A lot of fairly heteronormative people hang out here". But I'm just getting started.

The thing is, I really just don't 'get' sexual/gender identity. I am not what you would call 'androgynous'. If you asked me to express how I honestly felt about my identity, I would simply call myself male. If you then used some phlebtonium to switch my working parts around, I'd call myself female (I doubt I'd start liking males, but I don't know enough about biology OR psychology to guarantee that). And I just don't get how anyone could care to express otherwise.

If you called me a bad friend, I'd be hurt. If you called me cruel, or greedy, or lazy (even though that one's true), it would strike me at least a little, no matter how I tried to disregard you. If you even said that you didn't like my cookies, I would feel dismayed. But if you called me girly? Or kinda gay? Or anything like that? Nothing. I mean, not even a little. Of course, I'd correct anyone who thought I was gay if I didn't have to put much effort into it and I wasn't busy and I thought it mattered at the time. I hate to be inconveniencing anyone through a wrong impression. But I simply can't fathom why someone's image of my sexual/gender identity matters. And, by extension, I can't picture why it matters to anyone else.

I don't want to be raising any hackles here. Whether or not I get it, I know it's important to you folks. It's not wrong for it to be important. I'm most certainly in the minority of humanity for not caring how people see my gender/sex. But, y'know, I guess I kind of wish someone could explain to me how you can feel pained by someone calling you a 'boy' or a 'girl', how it can matter that someone called you 'him' or 'her'. I feel like I'm missing some perspective that's critical to understanding humanity. And if I don't understand it, how can I help the people who NEED to understand, who are in a position to hurt through their ignorance?

tl;dr I don't get why people even have sex/gender identity. Someone fix my brain plz.

I'm also straight and not getting gender. But I think what hurts is the repetition and the fact that it matters to them. Because I (and it seems you) don't really care about stuff like gender, being taken for the opposite one is more likely to be funny than hurtful. Similarly, because our sexual orientation isn't under attack, if someone mistakenly thinks we're gay it's not hurtful (although I doubt it's hurtful to non-straight people if someone assumes they're straight, unless they then try to convince them. Annoying that everyone assumes so, maybe, but hurtful, probably not usually).

Add to that the intent. See, you hear a lot about bullying of gay kids in high school. Well in high school I was bullied a bit for being a lesbian. Which I wasn't. I didn't care at all. It was that thing that wasn't true, the person they were insulting wasn't me, and it never reached physical violence, only comments and that kind of things.
But I was freaked out, freaked out that they'd learn I wasn't gay, because what bullies like is hurting people, and I knew if they realised I was straight they'd find something else to insult about me. Something that might be true. Something that might hurt, because I was already struggling accepting it, and their hatred would just be reflecting the part of me that was self-hatred.

I believe it hurts less if you're comfortable in what you are. Then it's more of a "why do people want to hurt others like that? What's in it for them?" feeling, and possibly anger depending on what they've done/said and to whom. But what is hard is that when you are different, first you need to accept yourself, and if while you're still struggling with that you're shown that you're not accepted by others, it makes the whole thing much harder.
Similarly, a guy who isn't gay but is, for instance, girly, and is often accused of being gay, might be hurt by it because, despite the stupid girly=gay assumption, he is struggling with being a girly guy in a place were that's not socially "good" to be one.

Anyways, I think we all have things that we are very sensitive about. They aren't the same for everyone. There must be things you are very passionate about too, but maybe they were never used as insults against you while you were already struggling with the fact that they're not socially accepted.

[Al'izh'dheg]

By my own admission, I'm embarrassingly new at this, but I'd like to take a shot at explaining gender identity, if I may, from a strictly psychological point of view. Please note this is simply my understanding of how our psyches work, and I'm in no way officially qualified to speak for anybody else. Further, as this is, strictly speaking, my point of view (I hesitate to say opinion as I *have* studied a bit of psychology, and spoken with enough psychologists to feel this is based in some facts, at least as I understand them), I freely welcome counter-points of view as they will help me understand things better.

I made it a spoiler because apparently I can't keep things short if my life depended on it.

Spoiler

Show

With that out of the way, I would like to put forth the assertion that our happiness is irrevocably tied to our identity. Our identity is very important to us, and when this identity is disruptive, severe emotional issues are presented. As an example, "I am a husband/boyfriend/lover." This is a pretty straightforward identity. However, when we go through a breakup, this part of our identity is no longer valid. "I am a good husband," may be replaced with thoughts/identities that are unhealthy, and cause depression, "I was a poor husband, now I am divorced." This disparity between what we identified with versus the reality of our situation causes problems.

When our behaviors do not match our beliefs, anxiety is created. Psychology calls this "cognitive dissonance." (for information, please see tip.psychology.org/festinge.html) This anxiety continues until the dissonance is resolved.

Gender is arguably one of the most basic of identities, and one that most (not all by any means, I don't mean to step on any feelings here) people resolve pretty early on in life. We learn that boys have male parts and girls have female parts. For the sake of simplifying the discussion, I am not referencing hermaphroditic bodies. This isn't to disregard what I view as a very, very important issue in our society (and one we deal with rather poorly, quite frankly), but is simply to stay on the topic of explanation.

Once our little minds and bodies have learned to identify males with male parts and females with female parts, our cognitive minds go about categorizing everything. According to the psychologist Piaget, this occurs during the concrete-operational stage of development, between 7 and 11. We learn things like, "Billy is a boy's name. Billy is a boy." "Sarah is a girl's name, Sarah is a girl." "I have male parts, therefore I am a boy." And this leads to "Billy is a boy, and I am a boy. Sarah is not a boy, therefore she is different than I am, but Billy is like me."

This is all pretty straightforward at this point. But what happens, psychologically if there's a disconnect between how we see ourselves and how we learn about gender? What happens if, for instance, we learn that "I have male parts, therefore I must be a boy," and I also learn that, "Boys like playing sports, wearing pants, and fighting. Girls like playing with dolls, wearing dresses, and putting on makeup." This is fine up until I cognitively realize, "I like wearing dresses, playing with dolls, and putting on makeup. In fact, I don't like much of *anything* that boys like."

There's suddenly a disconnect between what I think I know to be true, and what actually *is* true. I think I'm a boy because I physically resemble one. But I don't want to talk to boys, I don't like doing things boys do, I want to do things girls do.

Now let's assume that I don't even look very much like a boy. I may have boy parts, but as they enter puberty, boys have hairy faces and chests. Their shoulders grow broad, and they gain weight as their muscles fill out and become more defined. Their voices become deeper. What if these things don't happen to me? Or worse, what if some do and some don't?

All of these things cause a disparity between who and what you identify yourself with and how things "should" be. Should can be a terrible word, and feeling like you "should" be something is horrific. Yes, that last part wasn't objective like I promised I would be, but I can say that because what I "should" be has caused me more heartache than I can ever describe to another person who has not felt the same way. That's not just because of gender, but that's another discussion.

Not to speak for others, but I would imagine those who don't understand gender issues are very comfortable with their gender identities. This is a wonderful thing, and I'm truly happy you do not have to deal with this particular issue. There's nothing wrong with being confident in who and what you are. :) But if you want to know a little about what it's like, remember what happens to you when you identify with something that is no longer true. Even something as simple as "I'm an excellent employee with a great plan for the future," can be crushed by unexpected layoffs or getting fired for some reason. And even that can feel pretty awful, at least until you gain an identity to replace it with that you're comfortable with, "I am employed at a new position," or even, "I have a loving support group in my family and they will take care of me until I find a new job."

Anyway, I hope that helps... further, I hope it wasn't so long you didn't read it all. :)

[Yora]

I think a great deal is the "knowledge" everything is allright with me. Looking back, I guess that for 22 years I have always been a bit different, but it never caused me distress. You would have rather said I was shy or intraverted, and though that might not always have been that easy, it never felt as if there was something wrong with me. If problems did occure, I always perceived them as outside problems, never something about myself. I did think quite a bit about gender since I was 16 or so, and it was mostly that I wondered why people make such a fuss about the differences between boys and girls. I percieved the differences as being just like two subcultures in the middle school environment, but not something fundamentally different between males and females. I think I was 19 or so when it first dawned on me that there are actual real differences, they just don't apply to me as a special case. However back then, I didn't think much about it.
It was only several years later that I really started looking into transgender issues, and only then for the first time I felt some discomfort related to my gender. It was not that I was unhappy with who I am, but it did become very important to me to find the name for people like me. Not being able to assign a label to me did cause me some amount of distress. It was not that I was looking for a reference how I should be, but really for the category I belong to. When I first noticed my first bisexual attraction at 20, it was a complete non-issue to me. I think it was right the next day that I told my friends "hey, I'm really comfortable with the idea of a same-sex relationship" and they said "hey, good for you!", and that was my complete coming out story in under 24 hours. But not being able to pin down my gender identity, that really caused me quite some unrest. Gender does matter, even if you don't care at all which one it is. But from my experience, people really need to be able to put a name on what they are. If you can't it causes blemish in your self-perception that does have to be fixed. You can't just go on with leaving fundamental aspects of yourself as "undefined". The brains of modern humans are wired in a way that makes words, or rather defined concepts, essential to how we perceive things.
Now I can just say I'm androgynous and everythings fine again. And I think I've probably been all my life, but for as long as I had been clearly classified, everything was alright. As an actual transsexual it's probably different, but in my personal experience the ability to put a name and an accompanyng concept to your own gender identity is of major importance.

[Atsign]

Spoiler

Show

With that out of the way, I would like to put forth the assertion that our happiness is irrevocably tied to our identity. Our identity is very important to us, and when this identity is disruptive, severe emotional issues are presented. As an example, "I am a husband/boyfriend/lover." This is a pretty straightforward identity. However, when we go through a breakup, this part of our identity is no longer valid. "I am a good husband," may be replaced with thoughts/identities that are unhealthy, and cause depression, "I was a poor husband, now I am divorced." This disparity between what we identified with versus the reality of our situation causes problems.

When our behaviors do not match our beliefs, anxiety is created. Psychology calls this "cognitive dissonance." (for information, please see tip.psychology.org/festinge.html) This anxiety continues until the dissonance is resolved.

Gender is arguably one of the most basic of identities, and one that most (not all by any means, I don't mean to step on any feelings here) people resolve pretty early on in life. We learn that boys have male parts and girls have female parts. For the sake of simplifying the discussion, I am not referencing hermaphroditic bodies. This isn't to disregard what I view as a very, very important issue in our society (and one we deal with rather poorly, quite frankly), but is simply to stay on the topic of explanation.

Once our little minds and bodies have learned to identify males with male parts and females with female parts, our cognitive minds go about categorizing everything. According to the psychologist Piaget, this occurs during the concrete-operational stage of development, between 7 and 11. We learn things like, "Billy is a boy's name. Billy is a boy." "Sarah is a girl's name, Sarah is a girl." "I have male parts, therefore I am a boy." And this leads to "Billy is a boy, and I am a boy. Sarah is not a boy, therefore she is different than I am, but Billy is like me."

This is all pretty straightforward at this point. But what happens, psychologically if there's a disconnect between how we see ourselves and how we learn about gender? What happens if, for instance, we learn that "I have male parts, therefore I must be a boy," and I also learn that, "Boys like playing sports, wearing pants, and fighting. Girls like playing with dolls, wearing dresses, and putting on makeup." This is fine up until I cognitively realize, "I like wearing dresses, playing with dolls, and putting on makeup. In fact, I don't like much of *anything* that boys like."

There's suddenly a disconnect between what I think I know to be true, and what actually *is* true. I think I'm a boy because I physically resemble one. But I don't want to talk to boys, I don't like doing things boys do, I want to do things girls do.

Now let's assume that I don't even look very much like a boy. I may have boy parts, but as they enter puberty, boys have hairy faces and chests. Their shoulders grow broad, and they gain weight as their muscles fill out and become more defined. Their voices become deeper. What if these things don't happen to me? Or worse, what if some do and some don't?

All of these things cause a disparity between who and what you identify yourself with and how things "should" be. Should can be a terrible word, and feeling like you "should" be something is horrific. Yes, that last part wasn't objective like I promised I would be, but I can say that because what I "should" be has caused me more heartache than I can ever describe to another person who has not felt the same way. That's not just because of gender, but that's another discussion.

Not to speak for others, but I would imagine those who don't understand gender issues are very comfortable with their gender identities. This is a wonderful thing, and I'm truly happy you do not have to deal with this particular issue. There's nothing wrong with being confident in who and what you are. :) But if you want to know a little about what it's like, remember what happens to you when you identify with something that is no longer true. Even something as simple as "I'm an excellent employee with a great plan for the future," can be crushed by unexpected layoffs or getting fired for some reason. And even that can feel pretty awful, at least until you gain an identity to replace it with that you're comfortable with, "I am employed at a new position," or even, "I have a loving support group in my family and they will take care of me until I find a new job."

Anyway, I hope that helps... further, I hope it wasn't so long you didn't read it all. :)

This explanation seems loaded with unfortunate implications to me. It sounds like you're saying "if somebody doesn't strictly adhere to gender stereotypes, they will ultimately choose to identify as the stereotype for the gender associated with the sex opposite that associated with their birth sex, and never anything else."

[Gardener]

This explanation seems loaded with unfortunate implications to me. It sounds like you're saying "if somebody doesn't strictly adhere to gender stereotypes, they will ultimately choose to identify as the stereotype for the gender associated with the sex opposite that associated with their birth sex, and never anything else."

I'm pretty sure that wasn't what was said there - it was more "conform to none" than "not conform to one". And it's not inevitable that gender dissonance leads to full-blown transsexuality, but in Al'izh'deg's case it did, and I'm not going to criticise them for writing a little from their own experiences when describing psychology. Even for people who don't identify as transsexual, the dissonance is still fundamentally the same - "I have <gender> parts, so I'm a <gender>. But I don't feel how <gender> are supposed to feel, so I'm not really <gender>. Help!"

There are countless ways to resolve this dissonance, and not all of them result in trans* identifications. Maybe you just decide that society is wrong about what defines gender. Maybe you check your desires a little and conform to expectations. And then again, a bunch of responses do lead to identifying atypically, either outside the binary or on the other side of it. These responses are not inherently better or worse than each other, but they are all addressing the same fundamental issue - the experience of gender dissonance to some degree.

[DeadManSleeping]

Maybe you just decide that society is wrong about what defines gender.

I just have trouble imagining how one could come to any other conclusion. I mean, have you ever SEEN society? It is dumb.

[Gardener]

I just have trouble imagining how one could come to any other conclusion. I mean, have you ever SEEN society? It is dumb.

How many people actually look at society and ask if it makes sense?

Also, if society is wrong about what defines gender, which way do you go? Accept the sterotypes and reject the classification? Reject the stereotypes but accept the classification? Throw both out the window? That's a pretty personal choice, and I'm not going to dictate it to anyone.

Just because society is stupid doesn't mean that it's always wrong - a stopped clock is right twice a day, after all.

[DeadManSleeping]

How many people actually look at society and ask if it makes sense?

You'd be surprised to know that when everyone has 14-ish hours a day of active thinking to go through, that sort of examination really does come up a lot. How WELL people examine society varies, but society has given every living person trouble, and every living person has questioned it. Even the smallest child incessantly asks "why". I find it hard to believe that, in all the hours of their life, there could even be one person who hasn't taken a look at something everyday and said "WTF".

As far as I'm concerned, a 'male' is someone with male reproductive organs, a 'female' is someone with female reproductive organs, and there are people who are not either (they may lack full reproductive organs, or have both kinds, or ambiguous kinds, etc). Further definitions just seem plain useless.