LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

[Serpentine]

Yora: I don't disagree with most of what you're saying, but you're mixing together biology and culture. Male and female are biological sex. The MtF is male in body because that is biologically true. Their body is male. If that weren't the case, there'd be no issue, and I don't see how denying this scientific fact is helpful. That doesn't mean I think she shouldn't identify as and be considered in pretty much every situation a woman, mind. But the fact she was born, presumably, with a fully functional and normal male body to go with her XY chromosomes and testosterone-heavy hormones is still a fact.
Although, to contradict myself, if the idea that they have a "female" brain is true, then maybe they're actually intersexed, as part of their body is biologically one sex, while another part is biologically the other...

[Asta Kask]

Hermaophrite insects are severely queer.

[Lissou]

I think the main problem with the "male" vs "female" brain is that a brain is something changeable, unlike most of one's body. And I mean, changeable without surgery. Different zones can develop or atrophy, etc. Ultimately it's possible for a brain to change a lot, possibly up to the point that it changes from male to female or vice-versa.
Of course you'd need to define what a male and a female brain are first.
So I'm not sure I see it as someone being born with a brain that's male or female... I think our experiences shape our brain, what we learn, what we do. It has to do with what we have an interest in, of course, but also opportunities and surrounding. In a place where all females are taught certain things and raised a certain way and all males are taught other things and raised another way, you're likely to see similarities in their brains and say "that's a male brain" for instance, when it might actually mean "that's how your brain develops if you were raised that way".

And as far as I know, being transgender doesn't have anything to do with the way you are raised. And I think saying your brain has to match the "male" or "female" template to qualify as trans might turn out to be as restrictive to them as the view according to which people need to match their physical bodies (be it before or after an operation).

Now, I'm not a brain specialist, so anyone who knows more about the issue is welcome to talk about male and female brain and whether the progression from one to the other is possible considering how brains can change themselves, and if that would result in a change of gender identity or personality or whatnot.

It does pose the same problems to me though. I mean if I grow more confident, does that mean my brain became more male? (or female, if you prefer. It doesn't really matter). Can't we just say "you've grown more confident" instead?

The argument about biological roles makes sense in the past. But we are now at a point in which one can choose not to be pregnant, people can know they're sterile early on (and might still develop a gender) and parents can fill either role regardless of gender (you can have a stay at home dad, a breadwinner mom, two parents of the same sex, or two parents who work part-time and raise you part-time, to name a few examples).
Does that mean these are trans people? I don't believe so. I understand how people had different life experiences and different roles, but nowadays there are other things that can make more significant different to one's life than whether they have the ability to be pregnant or not, so I don't think it should remain such a big factor into defining people's self-identities. I do agree it might be a cause though, after all that's apparently why our bodies developed differently (but body-wise, you can still be, say, a very athletic woman, and in my opinion at least it doesn't mean you aren't sexy and feminine, so it's not like that's so clear-cut either).

[Asta Kask]

I think the main problem with the "male" vs "female" brain is that a brain is something changeable, unlike most of one's body. And I mean, changeable without surgery. Different zones can develop or atrophy, etc. Ultimately it's possible for a brain to change a lot, possibly up to the point that it changes from male to female or vice-versa.

That depends a lot on the brain areas involved. Some areas - particularly those on the brain's surface - are very changeable (although even here there are clear limits). Other areas, deeper down in the brain, are much less flexible. The areas thought to control a person's sexual identity are deep down in the brain. So thing's don't look promising.

Compare to sexual attraction, also thought to be controlled by one of those deep-seated nuclei. Decades of attempts to 'cure' homosexuality have proven as futile as they are misdirected. The only attempt to change sexual orientation known to me that has succeeded was an attempt in the 60's was a man with paedophilia who was changed by a deep brain operation. But his 'cure' may have been due to a general apathy induced by the operation. Not a good idea.

[Partysan]

Lissou already mentioned brain structure. I think in the debate of physical sex vs. gender identity it is important that our psyche is ALSO physical, it's a product of our brain structure. It's only because we cannot percieve another person's thoughts like their body and because of its complexity and the fact that we use it to think about well, everthing that we usually make a distiction between physical and psychological.
Now while I agree to an extent that our brain structure will evolve according to our experience, I'm pretty sure that some parts of it are innate. Now we do know that the brain structure of vanilla men and women tends to be different in certain ways and that, for example, homosexual persons tend to have structures more akin to the other sex. Transgenderism thus seems very much explainable by a person whose innate brain structure does not fit their remaining body structure, thus creating a dissonance. (this is, of course, only an uneducated hypothesis)
The important point here is that the difference between physical and psychological is a thought construct, because everything psychological is a representation of something physical, only we percieve it indirectly. Assigning a sex by some parts of the body, but ignoring other parts of the body may be agreed upon, but is still a bit arbitrary.

Speaking of interhair:

Spoiler

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If that's your hair colour, I demand a picture!

[Lissou]

So, then, people who don't identify with either gender, or who don't get gender, etc... What would that mean about their brains? Are they a mix of the two? Something different altogether? One or the other but it somehow doesn't affect them?

[Partysan]

I don't know. I'm not aware of any studies about that either. It is clear that they also have a differently structured brain, but how it differs from the others I don't know.
We also have to differentiate gender and sex here. Transsexual persons feel their body to be wrong while as far as I know the people who don't get gender DO get sex. It's just what society attaches to sexes that doesn't make sense to them, and to be fair it doesn't for me either, I only "understand" it on a purely intellectual level.

[Lix Lorn]

I think when discussing such things, all views have to be accepted as they are and should not be regarded as wrong or stupid.

This is probably what you meant, but just to clarify, all views that do not unnecessarily impinge on other people's views have to be accepted as they are and should not be regarded as wrong or stupid.

[WarKitty]

The hard part here I think...it is hard for me to understand and accept transsexuality in a way that still allows me to retain my own view of myself. I'm not entirely sure how to put this, so please bear with me. I will do my best to not cause offense. The thing is...for me, to even say I have a gender is to impose something that is foreign to me. And every explanation of transsexuality that I know about depends on the idea that gender is a real, universal part of identity. I accept it as best I can, but...it just doesn't make sense in the explanations I know.

[Partysan]

The hard part here I think...it is hard for me to understand and accept transsexuality in a way that still allows me to retain my own view of myself. I'm not entirely sure how to put this, so please bear with me. I will do my best to not cause offense. The thing is...for me, to even say I have a gender is to impose something that is foreign to me. And every explanation of transsexuality that I know about depends on the idea that gender is a real, universal part of identity. I accept it as best I can, but...it just doesn't make sense in the explanations I know.

In my understanding of things that's really about the physical and societal aspects of gender and sex. While you, Warkitty, do not see gender as part of your identity, I presume you do have sexual organs that you accept as part of your body (and thus, you). If you instinctively knew that the things growing from your body are wrong and don't belong to you as a person, that would cause you distress. Of course, you personally might be fine with whatever parts you grow, but transsexual persons will feel they KNOW that parts of their body are wrong.
In my book it doesn't have to do that much with gender.
Disclaimer: all theory, I'm cisgendered myself and just try to understand things because for some bizarre reason which I don't know myself I care about these things and people.

[Astrella]

The hard part here I think...it is hard for me to understand and accept transsexuality in a way that still allows me to retain my own view of myself. I'm not entirely sure how to put this, so please bear with me. I will do my best to not cause offense. The thing is...for me, to even say I have a gender is to impose something that is foreign to me. And every explanation of transsexuality that I know about depends on the idea that gender is a real, universal part of identity. I accept it as best I can, but...it just doesn't make sense in the explanations I know.

Hmm hmm, I know what you mean. Though I don't think it really should be a problem. I'd imagine the idea of not having a gender would be kinda foreign to someone who's transsexual as well. And I know transpeople who identify as genderqueer as well, so I don't think being trans automatically means you ascribe to the gender binary.

[WarKitty]

In my understanding of things that's really about the physical and societal aspects of gender and sex. While you, Warkitty, do not see gender as part of your identity, I presume you do have sexual organs that you accept as part of your body (and thus, you). If you instinctively knew that the things growing from your body are wrong and don't belong to you as a person, that would cause you distress. Of course, you personally might be fine with whatever parts you grow, but transsexual persons will feel they KNOW that parts of their body are wrong.
In my book it doesn't have to do that much with gender.
Disclaimer: all theory, I'm cisgendered myself and just try to understand things because for some bizarre reason which I don't know myself I care about these things and people.

Yeah, the physical part is a bit easier to understand. I just think...it's hard sometimes to make room for all our experiences without feeling like one is invalidating the other. Especially because...well, I know that my experiences are the type that are commonly used to invalidate transpeople, even if I personally don't want to do that. In my case, I had a long period of discomfort starting at puberty with the physical shape of my body. Somewhere around college, I realized that the source of the discomfort was not with the physical body, but with the assumptions and behavior around it - I simply didn't want to be part of the female gender role, and I was particularly uncomfortable with the presumed sexuality that accompanied my body (to the point of quite literally trying to starve my breasts off). One kind of dissonance does not mean the other does not occur, but society at large often likes to treat them as if it does.

Incidentally, that's also a complaint I've heard from several transpeople (generally transwomen) - that they end up feeling even more constrained by the gender binary in order to be accepted. E.g. "You don't like to wear dresses or makeup and you don't like housework, how can you really be a woman?"

[Atsign]

It's true that I don't understand trans people. I can see that they struggle, but I always feel, for instance "but it's okay like X and doing Y while having [set of genitals]. You don't need to change anything!" and to me the idea that they feel the need to alter their bodies due to their personality because society put rules on what bodies have what personalities is more painful than DeadMan's statement. For me it means "society is such a pain in enforcing stupid random ideas about that "gender" thing and what people are supposed to be or do or not that some people have a deep disconnection between the way they're perceived and the way they are, and suffer their whole life" and that's very sad.

People do not transition simply to rationalize having interests that society doesn't consider typical for their birth sex. If it were all about doing what society expects and wants you to do, nobody would transition because society at large does not expect or want them to do that either. Also, there would be no such thing as someone who identifies as male who likes anything girly or was attracted to men, and the opposite would be true for everyone who identifies as female in a world where people transitioned exclusively to rationalize being atypical.

The hard part here I think...it is hard for me to understand and accept transsexuality in a way that still allows me to retain my own view of myself. I'm not entirely sure how to put this, so please bear with me. I will do my best to not cause offense. The thing is...for me, to even say I have a gender is to impose something that is foreign to me. And every explanation of transsexuality that I know about depends on the idea that gender is a real, universal part of identity. I accept it as best I can, but...it just doesn't make sense in the explanations I know.

Gender is real. It is a demonstrable, objective fact that there are people who have gender identities. Frankly I can't see why you would think that that would also mean that it's impossible for someone to not have a gender identity... Or that someone not having a gender identity would mean that it's impossible for other people to have one, whichever.

[WarKitty]

Gender is real. It is a demonstrable, objective fact that there are people who have gender identities. Frankly I can't see why you would think that that would also mean that it's impossible for someone to not have a gender identity... Or that someone not having a gender identity would mean that it's impossible for other people to have one, whichever.

First off, I don't think that there is anything at all about personal identities that falls into the categories of either "demonstrable" or "objective." That's not how personal identities work - you can't analyze them scientifically. Second, I never said that it was impossible, I said that every explanation of transsexuality I've seen relies on gender being an obvious part of identity. Which it simply is not to me - it may be part of someone's identity, but it's certainly not obvious or something I even understand very well.

[Gardener]

Yeah, the physical part is a bit easier to understand. I just think...it's hard sometimes to make room for all our experiences without feeling like one is invalidating the other. Especially because...well, I know that my experiences are the type that are commonly used to invalidate transpeople, even if I personally don't want to do that. In my case, I had a long period of discomfort starting at puberty with the physical shape of my body. Somewhere around college, I realized that the source of the discomfort was not with the physical body, but with the assumptions and behavior around it - I simply didn't want to be part of the female gender role, and I was particularly uncomfortable with the presumed sexuality that accompanied my body (to the point of quite literally trying to starve my breasts off). One kind of dissonance does not mean the other does not occur, but society at large often likes to treat them as if it does.

Incidentally, that's also a complaint I've heard from several transpeople (generally transwomen) - that they end up feeling even more constrained by the gender binary in order to be accepted. E.g. "You don't like to wear dresses or makeup and you don't like housework, how can you really be a woman?"

I'm all for us finding ways of talking about this that don't invalidate anyone's experiences. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while not everyone has a gender identity or holds it to be a key part of themselves, a lot of people do. Think how the average person in the street would react if you used the wrong pronouns for them by accident. There's a pretty good chance they'd be offended. They might overlook it, but it would hurt them. I'm not saying you have to understand why these people are so touchy about their sex and gender, I'm just saying that we all know a fair few people who are.

Now, once we've granted that some people do feel that gender is an important part of their identity, it's not too hard to move to the idea that some subset of the invested-in-gender-identity crowd are invested in a gender identity that does not match the one society gave them at birth, and that these people, who are automatically regarded as questionably worthy of that gender identity, might get even more sensitive about being misgendered, since they constantly have to struggle to get society to acknowledge them as they see themselves.

It might well be a simpler world, or even a better world, if no-one bought into the whole "gender" thing. But that doesn't mean that people can just let go of their identities in a moment. You don't get gender, and don't feel that it should have any part in determining your identity - that it is not a part of you. Why does a transsexual saying "gender is a part of me" contradict that? It's like saying one person who likes Vegemite and another who can't stand it are having an argument. They don't have to be. They can just express their differences and move on, because the two statements don't contradict each other.

Gender is no part of who you are. That's great. Please try to respect the fact that it is a part of who some other people are.

PS: Ah, that old double-bind. Defy stereotypes, and you're not really transsexual. Conform to them, and you're reifying the gender binary and reinforcing the kyriarchy. Fun times.

EDIT: Oh, right, I should actually read your last post, shouldn't I?

There's something of an issue there, in that most of the explanations of transsexuality are pitched at binary-identified people, explained through metaphors that try to evoke similar feelings. That's where the "X trapped in a Y body" cliche came from, and while it helped foster understanding in the community, it also expressed a sense of body-hatred that isn't actually inherent to transsexuality. Probably, more and better metaphors are needed to explain the situation to non-binary and non-gender-identifying people, but they may just not exist yet. The word "cisgender" is less than twenty years old, after all. Trans activism is still a fairly young field.

[WarKitty]

I'm all for us finding ways of talking about this that don't invalidate anyone's experiences. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while not everyone has a gender identity or holds it to be a key part of themselves, a lot of people do. Think how the average person in the street would react if you used the wrong pronouns for them by accident. There's a pretty good chance they'd be offended. They might overlook it, but it would hurt them. I'm not saying you have to understand why these people are so touchy about their sex and gender, I'm just saying that we all know a fair few people who are.

Now, once we've granted that some people do feel that gender is an important part of their identity, it's not too hard to move to the idea that some subset of the invested-in-gender-identity crowd are invested in a gender identity that does not match the one society gave them at birth, and that these people, who are automatically regarded as questionably worthy of that gender identity, might get even more sensitive about being misgendered, since they constantly have to struggle to get society to acknowledge them as they see themselves.

It might well be a simpler world, or even a better world, if no-one bought into the whole "gender" thing. But that doesn't mean that people can just let go of their identities in a moment. You don't get gender, and don't feel that it should have any part in determining your identity - that it is not a part of you. Why does a transsexual saying "gender is a part of me" contradict that? It's like saying one person who likes Vegemite and another who can't stand it are having an argument. They don't have to be. They can just express their differences and move on, because the two statements don't contradict each other.

Gender is no part of who you are. That's great. Please try to respect the fact that it is a part of who some other people are.

PS: Ah, that old double-bind. Defy stereotypes, and you're not really transsexual. Conform to them, and you're reifying the gender binary and reinforcing the kyriarchy. Fun times.

I've said repeatedly - I'm trying to give people the respect they deserve. What I'm saying is that the respect needs to go both ways, and in most of my interactions with the trans community it doesn't. Much of the LGBT community seems to want to treat me as an enemy simply because of my experience with gender. You're not telling me anything that I haven't had rubbed in my face ever since I could talk. You don't have to tell me that most people think gender is important - I've got an entire world letting me know that I'm a delusional freak for not making it important to me. And frankly I haven't found the supposedly inclusive communities to be much better about that.

Edit: Just saw your edit. Calming down a bit. Sorry...it's a very emotional thing for me as well. Particularly since I have had a lot of people tell me "the only reason you feel the way you do is because you're comfortable with your gender identity" when I've struggled quite a bit with how to manage my own identity in a society that seems intent to force another on me.

[Astrella]

I've said repeatedly - I'm trying to give people the respect they deserve. What I'm saying is that the respect needs to go both ways, and in most of my interactions with the trans community it doesn't. Much of the LGBT community seems to want to treat me as an enemy simply because of my experience with gender. You're not telling me anything that I haven't had rubbed in my face ever since I could talk. You don't have to tell me that most people think gender is important - I've got an entire world letting me know that I'm a delusional freak for not making it important to me. And frankly I haven't found the supposedly inclusive communities to be much better about that.

Edit: Just saw your edit. Calming down a bit. Sorry...it's a very emotional thing for me as well. Particularly since I have had a lot of people tell me "the only reason you feel the way you do is because you're comfortable with your gender identity" when I've struggled quite a bit with how to manage my own identity in a society that seems intent to force another on me.

Well, that's sadly a problem of the LGBT community in general, you'd really expect there to be more tolerance coming forth from it for it's different subgroups, but sadly there also a lot of intolerance and discrimination in LGBT itself.

[Mono Vertigo]

My 2 cisgender cents:
I don't really consider gender part of my identity. I dress with what's comfortable and very rarely "girly" stuff such as skirts or dresses, same for make-up, and my behaviour has much more in common with stereotypical men than women. IRL, I only really mind being called a guy when the implications are "you can't be a girl when you like manly stuff" (oh, Dead Sea vendors, how I loathe you).
And yet, for reasons I can't explain, I like my body very much, and though I don't find men disgusting, I'd find it extremely wrong for me to have male parts, even if I were born with them. Yeah, complicated.

[Asta Kask]

IRL, I only really mind being called a guy when the implications are "you can't be a girl when you like manly stuff" (oh, Dead Sea vendors, how I loathe you).

I think the technical phrase is "you can't be a real girl..." Because girls are imaginary.

[DeadManSleeping]

It's like saying one person who likes Vegemite and another who can't stand it are having an argument. They don't have to be. They can just express their differences and move on, because the two statements don't contradict each other.

Well, apparently saying that you don't like Vegemite seems to be offensive to Vegemite lovers, so.

girls are imaginary.

I posit that there is a synonymous but more correct phrasing: "girls are fantastic."

[Qaera]

I think the technical phrase is "you can't be a real girl..." Because girls are imaginary.

No True Scotswoman likes manliness?

~ ♅

[Mina Kobold]

Hmm, reading through this discussion has lead me to conclusion.

Gender is really important to some, unimportant to others and completely unrelated to others again. Same with the sex of potential partners, sex in general and the ability to see sounds. The important part is that we are all different and should be allowed to be who we are. Anyone who undermine who we are should get a stern talk to, and possibly a few rainbow water balloons thrown at them.

Just my ten Ears, or two cents if you want.

[Gardener]

Well, apparently saying that you don't like Vegemite seems to be offensive to Vegemite lovers, so.

Saying you can't imagine how anyone could like Vegemite is a little more than saying you don't like it.

I posit that there is a synonymous but more correct phrasing: "girls are fantastic."

Girls are complex?

[Viera Champion]

Hmm, reading through this discussion has lead me to conclusion.

Gender is really important to some, unimportant to others and completely unrelated to others again. Same with the sex of potential partners, sex in general and the ability to see sounds. The important part is that we are all different and should be allowed to be who we are. Anyone who undermine who we are should get a stern talk to, and possibly a few rainbow water balloons thrown at them.

Just my ten Ears, or two cents if you want.

Oh how I love you Keveak.

[Partysan]

I posit that there is a synonymous but more correct phrasing: "girls are fantastic."

I like that
(Although all other kinds of individuals who are not or only partly girls are fantastic as well nonwithstanding.)
Now one could make a case for "girlyness" indeed being imaginary. But that's too serious.

Oh well, identity building. I for my part did not, luckily, have any problem with accepting my pansexuality. One reason for that is that I discovered that tendency wheen I was pretty grown up already.
I DID however experience heavy psychological problems with my sexuality, because of my BDSM tendencies. Let's just say that someone with a hero complex discovering sadism creates cognitive dissonance on epic levels. So I can empathize with people by extrapolating from there.
I find it to be interesting anyway how we try to understand people by extrapolating their feelings from those we know ourselves. It makes for some scary implications about the emotional life of some people though. Mainly those who seem to be unable to empathize.

[Mina Kobold]

Oh how I love you Keveak.

Of course you do, I'm a Kobold. We're very lovable.

It's all part of our greatest trap, to enslave all mankind and rudely serve you really badly made drinks!

MWAHAHAHAHA!

Also, everybody is fantastic. Especially Kobolds.

[LaZodiac]

Of course you do, I'm a Kobold. We're very lovable.

It's all part of our greatest trap, to enslave all mankind and rudely serve you really badly made drinks!

MWAHAHAHAHA!

Also, everybody is fantastic. Especially Kobolds.

Indeed. I love me some Kobolds. Though I'm partial to lizardmen in general XP

[Heliomance]

Holy crap walls of text. Fraid I skipped most of it; in my defense I call 2.30 AM

[rayne_dragon]

I've said repeatedly - I'm trying to give people the respect they deserve. What I'm saying is that the respect needs to go both ways, and in most of my interactions with the trans community it doesn't. Much of the LGBT community seems to want to treat me as an enemy simply because of my experience with gender. You're not telling me anything that I haven't had rubbed in my face ever since I could talk. You don't have to tell me that most people think gender is important - I've got an entire world letting me know that I'm a delusional freak for not making it important to me. And frankly I haven't found the supposedly inclusive communities to be much better about that.

I've found that it can sometimes seem like the trans community has a chip on its shoulder as a whole... fortunately, not everyone is like that.

Also, I think it's pretty heroic that you're having gender be unimportant to you - I wish I could do that with myself.

[WarKitty]

I think the LGBT community can have issues with oppression olympics. I.e. "My oppression is worse than your oppression, so I'm more important than you!" Pointless all around.