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Thread: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
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2011-08-05, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
It is an objective, observable fact that there are certain features or interests that more men than women have, and vice-versa. It is not an objective, observable fact that men or women "should" or "should not" have these features or interests in order to be "real" women, nor that all men or women have them. That's the thing.
I don't believe I have a "gender identity". I like some so-called "girly" things, and some so-called "manly" things, but I do not believe there is anything innate to these things that make them "girly" or "manly", and I don't believe they make me any more or less female. I identify as female because I have a female body, and - if there is any significant physical difference between male and female brains - presumably a female brain, and I am fine with that. But beyond that biological identification, my so-called "gender" means pretty much nothing to me. My personality is neither "male" nor "female", except inasmuch as it adheres or does not to observable traits and tendencies associated with the sexes, as observed by the biological, evolutionary, sociological and other sciences, not as artificially determined by cultural mores. Like Warkitty, it boggles my mind that anyone would consider their relative "girliness" or "manliness" a significant aspect of their self-identity.
See also: my previous opinions on "gender".Last edited by Serpentine; 2011-08-05 at 12:27 AM.
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2011-08-05, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
Bugfix cuz I wanna edit.
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2011-08-05, 12:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
I've been meaning to ask, just how spooooky is that cave Serpentine?
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2011-08-05, 01:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-08-05, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-08-05, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
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2011-08-05, 01:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
So it's not a cave that causes Spooky damage? aww
I've viewed gender, when discussed in the way of being something said about a person's inner dimensions, as some sort of effect and reaction to the persona of the individual in regards to the sex of said individual, either embracing or rejecting it to a greater or lesser extent.
I can't really be aware of my body (though I admit, there are times when my spacial and body awareness are almost nonexistent) and not "know," in a sort of combination spiritual truth and physical sensation, that it is male & hairy & large & muscled in places it probably doesn't really need muscle because I've got ye olde functional Y chromosome and that as a result my mind has developed to become who I am because my body and how people have treated me because of it have effected me in a way that is irrevocable & inextricable from my current personhood.
You could not have a female or femme-Coidzor, because doing so would alter the formula for making a Coidzor so severely that calling the result "Femme-Coidzor" would have about as much meaning as giving the name "Dog" to a cat.
I recall that this is a bit of a dissenting opinion though, since it doesn't go with the basic intrinsic soul-level identity that seems to be the standard official answer & the one that people act as if it were the end-all, be-all to explaining the right of trans individuals to exist or something along those lines & it doesn't reject gender as having some expression in thought-reality at all.
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2011-08-05, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
I wasn't saying that people just go "hey, society said this, I'll do that". I was saying that some people might go "I like shoes, people who like shoes have vaginas, I don't have a vagina, this body is wrong for me" subconsciously. If one thing is a major part of who they are and is considered the opposite gender to their sex, they might identify with it despite every other characteristic of theirs matching their sex, so I'm not saying trans people have to be caricatures any more than cis people. Actually if you read back I did express that it makes it even harder to understand gender that it's not consistent at all, there is a list of trait but someone can identify as female with mostly a checklist of "male" things or vice-versa, regardless of their body, so it's very hard to understand how the whole thing goes.
And society affects people for a lot of things. I mean seriously, it affects people perception of beauty for instance. It affects people standards. Quick example, people nowadays expect shaving from women in most cases and tend to say it "looks better". Do you really think people thought that before it became common in representation? Hairs used to be a strong part of women's feminity and sexuality, and now it seems to have become that "gross" thing that they shouldn't have.
And if you ask someone about it who hasn't thought about it, they'll answer like it's self-evident, while it's society. We're a social species, we adapt to the rest of the group. Someone with a strong preference for hairs will keep it (and possibly mentally suffer from it, thinking they're gross or something, or rebel against society instead, saying they can have whichever tastes they want) but people who would have had no strong preference for one or the other will have one that goes the way of society.
There have been experiments before, for instance people sipping wine and being told it was either cheap wine or expensive wine while their brains were scanned. The people who thought they were drinking expensive wine enjoyed it more, because it tasted better. It was observed in their brains. Why did it taste better? Because it had the seal of approval of society by being priced higher.
People didn't decide to enjoy it more. People would enjoy the cheap stuff better if they could, it would cost them less. But that's how it went, and it's only one such example.
So, I'm not saying trans people are trans to rationalize things consciously. I'm saying that it's possible that if they were told "people who like shoes an have a penis or a vagina", and liking shoes was a major part of their identity, then there wouldn't be a contradiction, and less people might need to transition, more of them feeling comfortable in their bodies.
I don't think I'm saying anything news breaking here. I mean it seems to me that kind of thing is a daily part of life and we all have things we probably do or like or want or are only because of where and how we grew up.
Not to diminish anything about WarKitty, but as someone with a similar background I don't find it heroic, because it's not something I've decided. I just don't understand gender, I don't get it, and I've tried. I don't know if WarKitty's experience is different but in my case gender not mattering isn't really a choice because as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist in an observable way, so if it matters I'm pretty screwed.
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2011-08-05, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
I dunno. It just seems to me to be pretty unlikely for someone to be thinking like that unless they already have gender dysphoria, as that's a pretty drastic step to take mentally to declare to one's self that one's body is wrong without some fairly strong impetus.
There's a saying somewhere that I once heard, it went something along the lines of "courage is not the lack of fear, but the overcoming of it." Or, possibly, doing the right thing in spite of it.
So strive, strive, strive on.
So, what explanations have you received that have gender dysphoria contingent upon everyone having gender? I'm pretty sure it's a pretty deeply personal thing & dependent upon the gender identity and mental/biochemical composition of a single individual per incidence.
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2011-08-05, 03:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-08-05, 04:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
What I meant it that gender disphoria requires gender, and I feel that gender is a social construct, and therefore I'm annoying with society for constructing it in the first place as it seems useless to me. I respect the fact that some people have genders but it seems to me it would be much simpler if nobody did and people were just being themselves without bothering how manly or feminine it is.
I guess you could say what I mean is that I don't think people have born with a concept of gender in their brains, and that it's something that's taught to them when they're very little, and I wish people stopped doing it considering all the problems it leads to with "not fitting in" because the pegs are being expected to fit the holes rather than the holes being modeled after the existing pegs.
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2011-08-05, 04:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
What do you do when you like someone, and they're an old friend, but you're not sure of their orientation?
I don't talk to him a lot anymore, and have liked him for a few years now, and I'm thinking of talking to him again, but I don't wanna, you know, make a SUPER awkward situation... :/Adopted Larger, but younger, little bro of Lady Moreta
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2011-08-05, 04:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
Do the classy thing - go the Weiner route...
Seriously, how about asking them?Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
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2011-08-05, 05:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
Adopted Larger, but younger, little bro of Lady Moreta
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2011-08-05, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-08-05, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
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2011-08-05, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
*shrug* That still makes you heroic in a way. Just because something is the only option doesn't make doing it or living with the choice that much easier. Look at all the media in which heroes venture off to save the world. Do they really have any choice to do otherwise? It doesn't diminish it in any way. Although it's a matter of perspective and it might just be that it's heroic to me only because figuring out sex, gender, and society's interaction with those concepts seems like a hellish maze to me.
I love that saying, not that it really helps much with gender confusion issues.
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2011-08-05, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
Serps!
In The Princess comic, they just saw a psychiatrist, expert on trans and possibly other issues, called Dr Sarpentine. I'd guess it wasn't a reference, but it made me smile. :)Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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2011-08-05, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
First, I was raised with brothers who were older than me so I got their old stuff a lot. I also had a younger brother and shared my "girl" toys with him. So I might have a different concept.
And secondly, being taught something doesn't mean you can't question it. I was also taught to eat meat but I'm a vegetarian now.
And finally... Being taught that gender exists isn't the only thing. To really accept it as truth and understand it, you need to feel like you match one or the other. You need to look at what you're being taught and think "it makes sense". So as someone who was neither stereotype, it was easier for me to look at that thing I did hear and tell myself "this makes no sense". If I had observed my brothers being one way and me being a different way (other than physically), then I probably would have understood and adhered to it. I made no such observation.
I certainly don't think society can define your whole personality, but it can convince you that your personality isn't what it should be due to your sex. I was never told that one way or another, and even nowadays, if someone tells me I'm "such a girl" or "a guy with a vagina" I just acquiesce silently because I'm not sure what they mean.
I don't think it's all about it being taught by society. But I think the concept existing makes it more likely for people to be trans. I don't know if there wouldn't be people who still said "I'd rather have a penis/vagina" because maybe there would be some. But maybe there would also be people who would just be themselves and if they have a penis and wear makeup it would just be as normal as my being female and wearing none, for instance. To that extent society plays a big part, a while ago my being myself, wearing no make-up and no dresses, would have been a no-no, and of course I would have been incredibly uncomfortable having to follow my "gender". Yet nowadays I'm fine because being me doesn't mean I'm not a woman to anyone, and so I don't have to "pass" in order to be myself.
I don't think everyone goes through the same experiences, but I think some people could learn to be comfortable with themselves and who they are without having to put a label on it, without needing to be seen as male or female on any level other than physical.
I'm not sure if I am much clearer here. I just... nobody has ever been able to give me a definition of gender that would make it so that all males match the definition of males and all females match the definition of females, in a way that's observable by a third party. A concrete list of things, or even one thing that is true of all males and no females or vice-versa.
But instead, I constantly hear things about how saying you're fine when you're not is a woman thing (I know many guys who do that) or isolating yourself and saying you need to be alone and ACTUALLY needing to be left alone and getting pissed if you aren't is a guy thing (when I'm like that) and so on, in every day conversation, people say "he was being a guy" or "she was being a girl" and I have no freaking clue what they're trying to say by that.
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2011-08-05, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
Oh, but it is very different, believe me. See, if you are a woman, it means you're deliberately putting yourself aside, so that the other person has to make an honest effort to find out about your actual condition. That is, typical feminine psychology. While if you're a man, you are trying to minimise your own physical or emotional discomfort in order to maintain your toughness. In other words, it's a typical macho act.
This totally makes sense, and it is entirely confirmed byexperiencecheap Hollywoodian romantic comedies. Also, confirmation bias.Last edited by Murdim; 2011-08-05 at 12:57 PM.
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2011-08-05, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
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2011-08-05, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-08-05, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
All very true. However, simply because gender is a human creation doesn't mean that it can't be an important part of identity. For many people, their nationality is an important part of their identity, and the very concept of nationality -not to mention every nation- is a human creation. As with gender, people are often taught to make nationality an important part of their identity, and as with gender, this doesn't always happen. I'm agendered, and consider my nationality largely irrelevant outside of the context of the way it affects by life due to others considering it relevant. However, the fact that I am literate is a major part of my identity. I read subconsciously, I immerse myself in text, and a Knaight which can't read is a very different Knaight. Probably a Nate for that matter, as tweaking the spelling of ones name requires literacy.
Here's the thing. Literacy is at least as invented as nationality or gender. It is a statement of how one can interact with one or more human creations that fit within the general context of text. Its based on a technological invention, not just a social construct, and yet it can fit in an identity. Gender is, gender matters, and both of these things must be acknowledged when it comes to understanding identities.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
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2011-08-05, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
You can see, of course, that this sort of substitution highlights the problems with your view. Just because something isn't useful to you doesn't mean it isn't useful, nor does it mean it's something that just be thrown away. (Nor is it a conclusive argument against your feeling. But it is something to have brought up.)
Maybe I'm just weird that way, maybe it's some weird form of cis-gender privilege that's talking, but I feel like this sort of thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of us do have gender identities. I'm a guy. I am not the most stereotypical guy, I do not actively set out to do "guy" things, on purpose. But that isn't what being a man is about. It's a part of my social identity, though, and a part of how I live my life. And interacting with others is also a part of that. If I cannot tell if a person is a male or female, that weirds me out, not because there's anything wrong with the person, but because the shorthand (which I mentioned in my previous post here) doesn't work, and I have no clue how to approach or act towards that person at a subconscious level. Gender identities allow most people to interact in socially appropriate ways.
Sure, what goes into what's masculine and what's feminine changes from culture to culture. "Guys" don't kiss each other in the U.S., even on the cheeks. In other cultures, that is the proper greeting for two guys. Whatever. Culture will always, always have an element of complete arbitrariness to it, and what's appropriate for gender is part of that. You can't get rid of that arbitrariness without getting rid of culture, and I rather like culture, even if it has imperfections.
What I mean is, as a gendered person, your "genderless world" is as bizarre and unnecessary as you view mine. Gender is incredibly useful! Even if some people put too much stock in stereotypes, that will always happen, it would happen no differently in a world where, weirdly enough, people are born physically male and female but are for some reason treated as though they're exactly the same.
Men and women have the same capabilities -sexual dimorphism does not, from what I can tell, affect our potential intelligence in any important way. If a woman wishes to be a scientist or a firefighter or an astronaut or a film-maker, they deserve to be treated the same way a man is who wishes to fulfill whatever dream he has. Equality of opportunity, equality of pay, equality of dreams, these are the sorts of things we should strive for, and as a society, though things are improving, we need to keep working at it. Or else things will stay stagnant. Or else they will degrade.
However, even so, there is a huge difference between men and women, one based not on gender but on sex: Women are the ones who physically have babies.
And though it is socially frowned upon for a man to not take responsibility and be with the mother of his child, and litigated against him refusing to at least support the child financially, is it really any wonder why cultures treat women differently than men because of having babies? Expects them to be more nurturing, on average, then men? Expects them to want to have kids?
Why else would we give sons army men while we give daughters baby dolls? The sons we give fake guns, the daughters fake ovens. Our culture wishes to inculcate boys and girls into the differing roles expected of them.
You view this as bad, or at least alien and unnecessary because it causes you problems. In part, gender is a reaction to the main very real difference between men and women. Part of it is arbitrary, and no cultural shorthand, no stereotype, no established role, will ever fit everyone 100%.
But here's a secret: They aren't supposed to. Their goal, along with all the goals involved in socially integrating kids, is to get these kids to be able to live in the culture they were born in, and continue it.
Change will always happen, change is happening right now (which I wholeheartedly support), but almost everyone on most of the main "sides" of debates about societal change, be it those who wish for a "traditional" hetero-normative nuclear family based society (and boy, do I have words to say about nuclear families) and those who fight for equal ability for homosexuals to get married, form families, etc, and those who fight to make women equal in opportunity with men, are all dealing with gender, what it means to them, what it should mean, and so on.
"That man isn't a man!" is something some anti-homosexual people have said. "Women shouldn't be pressured to sacrifice a career for children if they don't want to!" is something a feminist would say. They're all speaking of gender as though it's real, as though their own interpretation of what it means and should mean is real.
Yes, it's a fight over social constructs. But getting rid of them all would be worse than pointless: Humans need shortcuts. Humans need to be able to peg things quickly, or have some kind of societal cue of "in front of this kind of person, act like this, don't act like that" to get through the day and do all those things we need to do, like work at our job, or court a potential partner. Without those, it would be like... you know how some foreigners do strange things, you have no idea why, and it can impede understanding? Well, it would be like that for everyone, about everyone else.
Actually, no it wouldn't, because people would just go right back to differentiating their culture. "We do this, not that, unlike this other group. That is why we are who we are." Stuff like that. The point is, human societies need culture, and gender is a useful part of that.
To tie things back to my altered quote: I used that as an extreme, not because your statement was at all bad, but as a sort of shock. To make one go "oh my God!" It is not an insinuation that your viewpoint is unethical or wrong. It is there to express the sort of dissonance your statement makes me, as a gendered person, feel.
Not "this is evil!", mind, but "this is bizarre and alien." If you have some kind of gender disphoria, then I'm sorry. But whenever there is any sort of culture, any sort of decided way people must interact or see themselves, there will always be people who don't fit. Nationalism is the same way. There will always be people who don't fit. I could go down every single list, including such necessary things as public schooling and literacy. Dislexia makes reading harder for those who have it. But I would not sacrifice literacy, either teaching it or having it, because it's more difficult for those who have dislexia.
Nor should gender, as a concept, be abandoned because there are people for whom it absolutely will not fit.
Now, society should change to be more accepting of those who do not fit normal gender roles or identities. Absolutely. That's what the goal needs to be, in fact. I believe this wholeheartedly. But you will never, ever create a society in which everybody fits in, and everyone feels included. Humans are too diverse. So as I said, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just drain the bathwater and give the baby, which you aren't particularly fond of, back to those of us, the majority of us, who think it's rather cute. You know, if you don't mind me torturing a metaphor.Assassin avatar by the awesome Elder Tsofu.
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2011-08-05, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
I have noticed an interesting effect. Having a girlfriend appears to almost completely suppress my gender confusion. I'm still not fond of my excess body hair and such, but I feel far less awkward about my own body.
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2011-08-05, 10:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
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2011-08-05, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
I honestly don't care for any of this debate, but I hate when people misuse metaphors, so I am going to have to stop you there.
First of all; Gender is not a living thing, and the implied preciousness of life that goes along with that metaphor does not apply to it (because it is being implied in the metaphor). I really dislike metaphors like that in general, but this one is especially bad.
Second of all; you appear to be implying that the concept of Gender as you understand it, only affects those who "possess" it, or I guess you could say "use" it, and by "returning" it to those who do not have a problem with it, the returner is releasing themselves of all of the effects of Gender. The whole point of Gender, as far as I can tell from both sides here, is that it is used, as a social construct, to judge a person, and extrapolate facts or ideas about that person from it. Therefore, those who "possess" or "use" Gender are in fact using it against everyone else. That is the point of Gender as a social construct. You are implying, from what I can tell, something that is very very different in your metaphor.
Third of all (because I like evenness in my posts); I think I need a clarification here, so I am going to ask you a question that I hope will clear up some confusion I am having.
@0Megabyte; do you consider happiness a fundamental right of a human being? Another question; do you consider a majority to have the ability to take the rights away from a minority?
@Warkitty; does the concept of Gender as society applies it to you make you, or lead to you being, unhappy? (I ask this question even though, from what I can tell, this appears to already be true).
If I have mixed up Warkitty with someone else, I apologize, it's kinda late and I am hella tired. If it does not apply to Warkitty, is there someone in this thread/argument who the question does apply to?
Anyway; I hope you answer to clear up my confusion.
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2011-08-05, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
I'm not going to get involved in the debate at all, but I am going to step in here and correct the use of the expression.
The "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" expression has nothing to do with the implied preciousness of life. For this expression, the baby is deemed to be an item you don't want to lose and the water is deemed to be an item you do want to get rid of. The bathwater is part of group "inside bathtub" and so is the baby. You want to get rid of the bathwater so you remove everything in the group "inside bathtub", at the same time removing something you didn't want to lose. The baby may be precious because it is a living being, but that is completely immaterial to the expression.
["T]hrowing the baby out with the bath water[" - A] part of something being wrong doesn’t mean the whole is wrong. The phrase can be considered something of a logical fallacy. The assumption is the following:
A belongs in the group A-Z
A is bad
Therefore A-Z must be bad.
Though, the expression of course still applies even when it is known that not everything in the group is bad, but you're doing it anyway.
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2011-08-05, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
I have always heard the expression used with the implied preciousness of life. However, thank you for clearing that up, as that does make some sense. I assumed that the preciousness of life was what made the baby the object that one would not want to lose. Do you know of any close expressions with similar meanings? I have heard the expression before, but I never really liked it. Would "cutting the nose to spite the face" be close enough to be considered usable without being too different? (for I could definitely see the differences in the expressions)
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2011-08-05, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- Location
- Australia
- Gender
Re: LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
Not really, cutting your nose to spite your face means doing something that harms yourself greatly in order to harm, or attempt to harm, someone else.
Link for more info: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/106875.html
I'm not sure of any similar expressions, but the reverse of the expression is almost that "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch". Though that can be more of a cautionary expression of removing the bad apple(s) before it can spoil the whole bunch.
"My Hobby: Replacing your soap with gravy" by rtg0922, Doll and Clint "Rawhide" Eastwood by Sneak