Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Otherworld Odd]

So what are some of the battleforces that are good to buy? Which factions are a little less... taxing on the wallet.


Or of course, would it be more beneficial just to buy the small boxes? I'm planning on not buying over the price of a battleforce to start out with though.

[Cheesegear]

So what are some of the battleforces that are good to buy? Which factions are a little less... taxing on the wallet.

I link you to things for a reason!

[Otherworld Odd]

I know, I saw that. But I don't know which ones are good. Cheaper doesn't mean the figures are all worthwhile to buy. O.o.


I guess what I'm really asking is if the Tyranid battleforce isn't really worth it, what's the best way to go about purchasing a starter army? What boxes are the best? Just something I can play low level games with (Remember, I'm still brand freakin' new) to get to know the game and slowly build up over time.

[Cheesegear]

What boxes are the best? Just something I can play low level games with (Remember, I'm still brand freakin' new) to get to know the game and slowly build up over time.

I already linked you to how many points each Battleforce roughly adds up to. That's how many points you can play. From a pure power perspective, none of the Battleforces are very good. They weren't designed that way. However, the 'best' Battleforces are the Imperial Guard's, Tyranids' and Orks'. But, only if you can get your hands on two or three of them, or otherwise quickly build up a force around them.

As far as what Battleforces are 'the best' on their own, assuming you wont be able to get models for a while, is the Space Wolves' one. It gets you into the 500 point mark without trying very hard (although I think all games should be at least 750 points) and is pretty solid since all the models in it are ones you actually want.

That being said, again. The Battleforces aren't designed for power.

EDIT: The upcoming Chaos Daemons' Battleforce isn't bad. But it is Chaos Daemons.

[Ninjaman]

A Razorback-spam list is definitely not a joke, and I have no intention of making light of it...

I didn´t i said they shouldn´t mock stelek that way.

In most cases, but it isn't exactly the same as rending. Str 3 still can't wound T7 and Str4 can't wound T8 with that, where as it does with rending. And against vehicles str4 is only ever going to glance, you can't rend for a penetrating hit with that extra D3 to the attack.

And ap 1 will get +1 on viechle dammage table.
But aren´t the WD codex with rending, which is better.

The stats can always be fudged around considering the codex isn't out yet. I can understand the loss of invulnerable saves is a big blow, but there is still more in tow.

Personally I'd give two general faith powers to the sisters, one that gives a 6+ (Maybe 5) invul save and the other power would be a plus 1 BS or WS on all sisters.

They have 6+ invul as basic.

Yes, yes it does.
Tyranids have a horrid $:Points ratio.

Which is fun since you don´t need to use money on 35 points veichles

[Cheesegear]

Which is fun since you don´t need to use money on 35 points veichles

Not really. There's a couple of ways you can play Marines without Rhinos. Nowhere does it say that you need to buy Rhinos or vehicles of any kind.

Anyway, watch this, this is stuff you need;

Tactical Squad, lets say Missile Launcher and Plasmagun. You can get a Power Fist from pretty much anywhere, but, for the sake of the argument, a decent Tactical Squad comes to 185 Points per box.
Scouts, 75 points per box.

Tyranids;
Warriors, 105-~120 points. Providing you aren't deliberately taking stupid things. For roughly the same price as a Tactical Squad.
Gaunts, 60-80 points per box. And are more expensive than Scouts to buy.
Gants, 50-60 points per box, and cost more than Scouts.
Genestealers, ~150 points.

The only way Tyranids break even in regards to Troops is with Genestealers. And that's not taking Broodlords. Which is terrible. And Genestealers aren't that great to begin with.

It gets worse. Tyranids' HQ choices are limited to a Hive Tyrant +/- conversions. Which is expensive. Or doing a lot of work cutting up a Hive Guard and kit-bashing with the Warrior-sprue. Which is pretty expensive. The other option is to be lame use a Warrior straight out of the box, which is ruining your squad because Warriors need minimum three models. So, hopefully you've bought a box on top of the Warrior box you bought. The other option is to convert a Ravener for the Parasite.

Space Marines though? Cheap blisters. Or the Commander Box, which is cheaper than one Hive Guard, and also contains the bits you need to make your next two or three Sergeants depending on what you want to do.

Tanks are on parity with Carnifecies. But not many people take those and want Mawlocs or Trygons instead. And that's not even including the headache required to build Tervigons and Tyrannofecies.

So, no. You don't need to buy 35 point optional vehicles. You need to buy 60 point Infantry boxes which you need and aren't really optional. And you need to buy expensive single-model blisters to make your army even half competitive (Zoanthropes/Hive Guard/Venomthropes/etc).

[Ninja Chocobo]

However, the 'best' Battleforces are the Orks'. But, only if you can get your hands on two or three of them, or otherwise quickly build up a force around them.

I...dunno about this.
I mean, Trukks aren't all that great, and unless you're doing substantial conversions to make Nob Bikers, well the less said about Warbike units the better.

And if you're not using every unit, you lose money.
That said, Warbike boxes are horribly expensive, so if you do plan to use Nob Bikes and Trukks in the same list, well then. Although, that doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

I didn´t i said they shouldn´t mock stelek that way.

whooooosh

[evisiron]

Your units should drop down. Terrain isn't quite an issue because your Priests should be Feel No Paining everything, so, Deep Strike into Difficult Terrain if you need to.

Sadly, Dangerous terrain doesn't allow FnP saves.
Cheers for the advice though. Guess I'll have to get used to thinking a few turns ahead. That's a cool list too. I had written up a similar one for 1000pts but used Scouts instead of Vanguard just so I could put someone on the table to make the opponent a bit less free to roam for turn one, as well as having Objective sitters (with Pinning and Missile launchers).

I'm also playing around with Dreadnought lists, because I freakin' love Dreadnoughts. Running test games on Monday, I'll post up how it goes.

[Renegade Paladin]

Sadly, Dangerous terrain doesn't allow FnP saves.

Indeed. Which is totally lame. I mean, my command squad's medic can deal with getting shot in the chest with a heavy bolter, but can't wrap a turned ankle? What?

[Zorg]

Heh. HorMachine. I've thinking about going into that for a while, and not only because Club is having a tournament with it soon.

I think playing multiple systems at once (not literally at once) can make you a better hobbyist in general - it exposes you to different concepts and ideas - both on the tabletop and modelling/background wise.
I don't get the idea of people who are all "I want to get into Hordes / Infinity / whatever so I'm selling all my 40k". It's like saying you cant have a PS3 and an X-box, only the number of people who think like that seem proportionally higher.

Even if it's the same person you normally play, a different system can make a big change in how they play. For instance I have a friend who is a godd 40k player, and he beats me prettymuch every time we've played. But at Space Hulk he has a tough time against me.

Zorg, I wont tell you again. Get. Out. Of. My. Brain.

Hey, man, I wrote that about two months ago - you get out of my brain

[Tarinaky]

I don't get the idea of people who are all "I want to get into Hordes / Infinity / whatever so I'm selling all my 40k". It's like saying you cant have a PS3 and an X-box, only the number of people who think like that seem proportionally higher.

It's primarily a money problem. Selling stuff is the easiest way to raise capital to afford new stuff :p

[Timberwolf]

I played an Apocalypse game today. It was good fun, had some awesome moments like when I blew away a load of Broadside suits with suicide combimeltaing Sternguard who then got partially blown up by a stray Baneblade shot and finished by the Tau command squad (I think I can be forgiven for expecting my Terminator Librarian to survive this... 2 sternguard and the Librarian left, 4 hits, 4 wounds, 4 failed armour saves. Yes, 2, 1, 1, 1 were the rolls. Guess who rolled the 2...)

But, what made me a sad person was this.

I didn't actually see what happened as I had to leave my models in the capable hands of one of our local Chaos players who was painting in store(who promptly turned traitor and started driving my Landraider very irresponsibly... but I was expecting that) and go meet my dad, but, to make the forces even, the local Blackshirt gave the Daemons player control of Angron, complete with the rules for actually using him as Angron. Brilliant model, absolutely huge, it's height is the same as a Stormraven's wingspan (I checked) but I digress. The Daemons player was given the objective of killing Draigo.

Draigo wiped the floor with him apparently. 500 points of Angron, you know, huge, massive Daemon Primarch, makes every Bloodthirster look like a candidate for "cutest lambkin of the spring" and every member of the Imperium wet their collective drawers at the sound he's even within 10 million light years dies in a single round of combat with a 275 point model. It was ruled that all his Daemonbane stuff would work on Angron and, duly, it did.

Can't help but feel that Angron would feel robbed and would demand a rematch.

[Cheesegear]

So, some of you may actually read the thread instead of every third or fourth post. So, I'll just re-iterate. I've got the Power Armour Ennui. It's what happens when the meta-game becomes nothing but Space Wolves and Blood Angels...And not all of them are even good players. So, to shake it up, I want to play something else. Since there are no new Sisters models and the rules don't look too crash-hot (unless the army comes out and it turns out everything is 5 points each), I don't think I'll be bothering with them.

So, here's what I like;
Tyranids, Tau, and Dark Eldar.

So, a cursory glance around the internet (if you know the sites, you can guess which ones I went to. While I do hate The Internet, it helps to be informed), says that Tau and Tyranids are all but nigh-unplayable, and Dark Eldar are good since they can do an approximation of Razorspam () which I already knew. But, those places tend to exaggerate quite a bit and anything 'not the best' equals terrible - which isn't the case.

Well, seriously, my meta-game is more than a glorified game of Red vs. Blue on a Vassal screen. My games are against real people who aren't terrible at being people.

So, kids, how do Tyranids and Tau do in the real world?
EDIT: Apparently Tau are terrible.

[Tome]

So, kids, how do Tyranids and Tau do in the real world?

Tau aren't too bad, if you either play in a fairly casual metagame or don't mind being locked into a mono-build. Needs a fair bit of skill to play, except against new players who don't realise just how bad Tau are in Assault.

Basic tactics are using Kroot and Piranhas to screen and then shooting everything to death with Broadsides and Crisis Suits. Targeting priority is a big thing.

[Cheesegear]

Tau aren't too bad, if you either play in a fairly casual metagame or don't mind being locked into a mono-build.

Neither of those things apply to me. My meta-game is best be described as 'competitive casual', or 'optimized theme lists'. Maybe not everything is Razorspam and He'Stan spam (but one list is both!), but every list is good at what it does. Example, my DoA list posted a page or so ago, or my eponymous Scout List, or my Bike List, etc. Y'know, the kind of lists that I write. Sure, there's a theme, but theme doesn't always equal bad if you know what you're doing.

Mono-Builds are the worst.

[Timberwolf]

So, here's what I like;
Tyranids, Tau, and Dark Eldar.

So, a cursory glance around the internet (if you know the sites, you can guess which ones I went to. While I do hate The Internet, it helps to be informed), says that Tau and Tyranids are all but nigh-unplayable.

So, kids, how do Tyranids and Tau do in the real world?

Well, locally here, there are 3 players that I regard as being the ones that beating is a real achievement (I'm not counting the local blackshirt or his minion, they have staff discount).

These 3 play Orks, Nids and (very often anyway as this is the guy who just loves modeling and painting so has a lot of armies) Tau.

I have never managed to even salvage a draw against the Nid player. I have beaten the Tau once in about 4 meetings when a glaring tactical error was made and I assaulted the Broadsides early.

I think you can probably work out the Nid list, depending on the points, of course, but there's never less than 2 Tyrannofexes and an appropriate amount of Tervigons (*gribble gribble chitter* as the seemingly endless waves of Gaunts spawn), Tyrannid Prime, Hive guard etc. The only time I've ever seen that list lose was against the Ork Kan wall and KFF list. He does need a huge case to carry all the gaunts though and I think he's glad he's not adding any more as they must have taken forever to paint and been quite dull to do.

The Tau... well, as everyone knows, they fold to assault. The trick, as everyone knows as well, is getting there. Broadsides win games as long as they don't get assassinated first turn, which anyone with half a brain does if they can. It is a gunline though, and moving and tactics don't really seem to come into it, just plonk your units in cover and open fire. The Tau around here, as long as the player's not a complete hopeless case and remembers the shield drones, do as well as any other army and better than some.

[Tome]

Neither of those things apply to me. My meta-game is best be described as 'competitive casual', or 'optimized theme lists'. Maybe not everything is Razorspam and He'Stan spam (but one list is both!), but every list is good at what it does. Example, my DoA list posted a page or so ago, or my eponymous Scout List, or my Bike List, etc. Y'know, the kind of lists that I write. Sure, there's a theme, but theme doesn't always equal bad if you know what you're doing.

Mono-Builds are the worst.

Then yeah, Tau would be locked into a mono-build in that metagame.

Elite slots full of Crisis Suits, Heavy Support filled with Broadsides and Hammerheads, some Pathfinders and maybe Piranhas for Fast Attack, one mandatory unit of Fire Warriors hiding in the Pathfinders' Devilfish and a whole bunch of Kroot to screen with. Any deviation is likely to result in failure, but sticking to it means you can still win.

Not that much fun to play against for some armies, as the Tau's crippling weakness to Assault means that games tend to be fairly all-or-nothing. Either the enemy never gets close and dies before doing anything, which isn't fun for them, or they make it into Assault and curbstomp your entire army with just a couple of tactical squads, which isn't much fun for you.

[graymachine]

I'm getting some very conflicting information from the interwebs while I've been building my GK army over the past 2 months. Some tell me that GKs are the shootiest army that ever did shoot. Others tell that they assault better than Assault McAssaultingson. What, exactly, do GKs excel at?

Here is what I have assembled so far:

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5 strike squads
-most are equipped with their basic sword, but I have a few with psycannons, halberds, and daemonhammers.

1 Dreadknight with a Sword and Hv Psycannon.

1 Venerable Dreadnought with Autocannon and Power Fist.

1 Stormraven

1 Drop Pod

2 Terminator Units with assorted weapons.

1 Grand Master

1 Librarian

[Tome]

I'm getting some very conflicting information from the interwebs while I've been building my GK army over the past 2 months. Some tell me that GKs are the shootiest army that ever did shoot. Others tell that they assault better than Assault McAssaultingson. What, exactly, do GKs excel at?

By default, they're good at both but with a strong bias towards shooting. You should generally play them as a a Shooty army with their S5 Stormbolters, with their Assault skills as the back-up.

Their reputation for assault mostly comes from folks who've either never actually played them and just assume that them all having S5 Power Weapons makes them fantastic assault units (they're good, but their low number of attacks lets them down) or from folks who've played against them and had an Assault unit that depends a lot on it's high Initiative get cut down by a Halberd wielding squad of Terminators (which probably cost several times what the squad that got crushed did). They're certainly not bad at it, but if it comes down to it they should be avoiding assaults so they can shoot more.

[Cheesegear]

I'm getting some very conflicting information from the interwebs while I've been building my GK army over the past 2 months. Some tell me that GKs are the shootiest army that ever did shoot. Others tell that they assault better than Assault McAssaultingson. What, exactly, do GKs excel at?

Shooting. Grey Knights are a primarily shooty army that can Assault if it wants to. Contrast to Space Marines, who are a Shooty army, that never get out of their vehicles whenever possible.

Of course, there are a couple of units. Like when Matt Ward trolled all Dark Eldar players and said "What if we gave all Wyches Power Weapons at +5 points per model and let them ride in a Stormraven?" Somebody was drunk when they wrote that, and, at present, I believe that a Death Cult squad with a few Crusaders in a Stormraven, with a psyker with Rad Grenades hanging around is one of the best units - bar none - in the game.
...At Assault.
Considering the points cost involved (i.e; Far too cheap)...Yeah. And you can make it Scoring if that matters. Like, say, if you wanted three of them.

Due to Grey Knights' generally terrible numbers, they don't want to be in Assault if they can help it. But are okay at it when they are.

[graymachine]

So, are their standard Storm Bolters, peppered with a few psycannons, sufficiently shooty? I really don't like the psilencer. Also, I've kinda kitted myself out for some fast assault, given the Stormraven and Drop Pod. Is sending a couple units out in these to play havoc with the frontline ok, or is it just going to cost me units?

The opponent I'm going to be fighting the most will probably be the same IG player and I'm worried about trying to out-shoot the IG.

[Cheesegear]

The opponent I'm going to be fighting the most will probably be the same IG player and I'm worried about trying to out-shoot the IG.

Oh. Yeah. Don't try doing that. Assault it is!

[Tome]

So, are their standard Storm Bolters, peppered with a few psycannons, sufficiently shooty? I really don't like the psilencer. Also, I've kinda kitted myself out for some fast assault, given the Stormraven and Drop Pod. Is sending a couple units out in these to play havoc with the frontline ok, or is it just going to cost me units?

The opponent I'm going to be fighting the most will probably be the same IG player and I'm worried about trying to out-shoot the IG.

Yeah, Storm Bolters with Psybolt Ammo and as many Psycannons as you can take is all that GKs need to shoot with.

IG and Tau are among the few armies that GKs can't outshoot. You want to Assault them instead, and you want to do it as fast as you possibly can.

[Cheesegear]

IG and Tau are among the few armies that GKs can't outshoot. You want to Assault them instead, and you want to do it as fast as you possibly can.

GKs easily outshoot Tau. The only thing Tau have got going for them are Crisis Suits, which are as expensive as the GKs are.

Crisis Suits also love Deep Striking, which GKs just rock out with a Warp Quake. Grey Knights also have a better armour save. And are just laughing at you if you've spammed Kroot (which you do, since you know how to play Tau properly).

Okay. Maybe I know a little something about Tau.

GKs can't outshoot a proper Codex, like Imperial Guard. Wraith Eldar can also give them a run for their money providing you're playing 1500+ points.

[Tychris1]

Tyranids don't seem to be that bad at my store, and are the one race with the best W:L ratio. I only know of one other Tyranid player but he is the only person aside from a Sisters of battle player, that has beaten my nids. This is generally howw games with Tyranids at my group devolve to

Turn 1. Run forward and take casualties while firing heavy weapons to knock out vehicles
Turn 2. Lose about a half of my troops, continue running forward while taking more potshots.
Turn 3. Lose all of my troops, Trygon and Genestealers come in, mopping up alot of units.
Turn 4. Carnifex' and Hive Tyrant get in combat. finish game.

Other then mass heavy flamethrower (SoB's) nothing else that I've met has been able to win against Tyranids. A Dark Eldar player came close once, but my Hive Tyrant crushed the Incubus that were wrecking the rest of my army. So, I'd say Tyranids are pretty good in the real world.

Also, apparently 8 genestealers with Broodlord assaulting through cover to a Tactical squad with seargent equipped with power fist is NOT a good idea.

[Mattarias, King.]

So, just popping in to say: Congrats to Hootman for getting third place in 'Ard Boyz. He used my Saint and Seraphim in his army.


On a related note, I LOVE IRONCLAD DREADNOUGHTS. By Odin's mighty beard, Beef McFlamernaught was AWESOME. I have never used a space marine list before, the stuff they get is FUN.

(Or at least, a pleasant change from what I'm used to. )

[Ricky S]

I have to say that once you know what you are doing when facing nids they become a whole lot easier to deal with. The first few games I played against them I was overwhelmed and made stupid decisions like trying to kill the big things when the little things were more of a threat or shooting warriors with bolters instead of (insta killing) missiles. Its all about target priority.

What is the current list you are using?

Err... spamming kroot? I guess you could but then why bother playing tau at all. You might as well play orks. As to GK's outshooting tau, its pretty equal. GK's have 2 shots each at strength 5 but then you can get 2 firewarriors per greyknight. The firewarriors have a longer range. The tau have deadly anti-tank but then the greyknights have dakka dreads, storm ravens and psycannons. The real decider is close combat and the GK's stomp tau into the ground with no trouble at all.

[Cheesegear]

Other then mass heavy flamethrower (SoB's) nothing else that I've met has been able to win against Tyranids.

List please.
I'm seriously considering 'Nids as my next list. But I can't seem to figure out a good list. Although, mostly, there's this new Zombie Dragon out and it looks perfect to kit bash something with.

...Okay. I'll admit it. I just want a Dragon in 40K.

Err... spamming kroot? I guess you could but then why bother playing tau at all.

So...Don't take Kroot? I've always been told that Tau work when you take a squad of minimum Fire Warriors, then spam whatever you want. Then fill points and mandatory FO slots with Kroot until finished.

That isn't the case?

[Tychris1]

List? Ok, here's the list.

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15 Hormagaunts with Poison glands (Varies)
15-17 Termagants with Devourers
3 Warriors Two with Death Spitters one with Regular venom cannon
9 Genestealers with one upgraded to Broodlord
1 Trygon Prime with Regeneration
1 Swarmlord
1-2 Carnifex with Crushing Claws, Heavy Venom Cannon, Regeneration, Bio Plasma
10 Gargoyles (Sometimes with poison glands)

That's my list, and I've only lost twice with it so far.

Edit: And yeah, I personally love the Undead Vampire Counts Dragon. I'm thinking of using it as a Tyrannofex or to try and make up my own stats for it.

[Ninjaman]

Not really. There's a couple of ways you can play Marines without Rhinos. Nowhere does it say that you need to buy Rhinos or vehicles of any kind.

What? Mech is king, you need mech.

Tactical Squad, lets say Missile Launcher and Plasmagun. You can get a Power Fist from pretty much anywhere, but, for the sake of the argument, a decent Tactical Squad comes to 185 Points per box.
Scouts, 75 points per box.

Tyranids;
Warriors, 105-~120 points. Providing you aren't deliberately taking stupid things. For roughly the same price as a Tactical Squad.
Gaunts, 60-80 points per box. And are more expensive than Scouts to buy.
Gants, 50-60 points per box, and cost more than Scouts.
Genestealers, ~150 points.

Nice, now compare them to IG.

GKs easily outshoot Tau. The only thing Tau have got going for them are Crisis Suits, which are as expensive as the GKs are.

Crisis Suits also love Deep Striking, which GKs just rock out with a Warp Quake. Grey Knights also have a better armour save. And are just laughing at you if you've spammed Kroot (which you do, since you know how to play Tau properly).

Okay. Maybe I know a little something about Tau.

GKs can't outshoot a proper Codex, like Imperial Guard. Wraith Eldar can also give them a run for their money providing you're playing 1500+ points.

Crisis have two wounds and 3+ save, and lots of guns, (i would like to see a grey knight that could fire 2 S6 ap2 and 2 S7 ap4 shots a turn). Also you NEVER deep strike crisis.

Tyranids don't seem to be that bad at my store, and are the one race with the best W:L ratio. I only know of one other Tyranid player but he is the only person aside from a Sisters of battle player, that has beaten my nids. This is generally howw games with Tyranids at my group devolve to

Turn 1. Run forward and take casualties while firing heavy weapons to knock out vehicles
Turn 2. Lose about a half of my troops, continue running forward while taking more potshots.
Turn 3. Lose all of my troops, Trygon and Genestealers come in, mopping up alot of units.
Turn 4. Carnifex' and Hive Tyrant get in combat. finish game.

Other then mass heavy flamethrower (SoB's) nothing else that I've met has been able to win against Tyranids. A Dark Eldar player came close once, but my Hive Tyrant crushed the Incubus that were wrecking the rest of my army. So, I'd say Tyranids are pretty good in the real world.

Also, apparently 8 genestealers with Broodlord assaulting through cover to a Tactical squad with seargent equipped with power fist is NOT a good idea.

How in the hell did your carnifex and (lone?) tyrant not get shot? Also blasts can shoot them to pieces.

List? Ok, here's the list.

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15 Hormagaunts with Poison glands (Varies)
15-17 Termagants with Devourers
3 Warriors Two with Death Spitters one with Regular venom cannon
9 Genestealers with one upgraded to Broodlord
1 Trygon Prime with Regeneration
1 Swarmlord
1-2 Carnifex with Crushing Claws, Heavy Venom Cannon, Regeneration, Bio Plasma
10 Gargoyles (Sometimes with poison glands)

That's my list, and I've only lost twice with it so far.

Devourgants should be shot before the reech the enemy. Carnifexes and swarmlord should get shot to pieces by rockets, same for the warriors. After that it is easy as cake.