Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Tome]

GKs easily outshoot Tau. The only thing Tau have got going for them are Crisis Suits, which are as expensive as the GKs are.

Crisis Suits also love Deep Striking, which GKs just rock out with a Warp Quake. Grey Knights also have a better armour save. And are just laughing at you if you've spammed Kroot (which you do, since you know how to play Tau properly).

Okay. Maybe I know a little something about Tau.

GKs can't outshoot a proper Codex, like Imperial Guard. Wraith Eldar can also give them a run for their money providing you're playing 1500+ points.

What? No, they can't. Where the hell are you getting that from? Crisis Suits either out-shoot GKs by a fair margin, or out-range and out-manoeuvre them, depending on set-up. They're also on similar levels of durability, being T4 W2 Sv3+ Jet Packs for slightly more than the cost of two GKs (being able to JSJ more than makes up for being vulnerable to Instant Death).

You never Deep-Strike Crisis Suits, not unless you're using a casual list - or certain tailored ones. Not only does it reduce the number of turns you can shoot for, due to being in reserve, it has no purpose beyond getting you closer to the enemy, which you do no want to do, especially since you can't make your Jetpack move after DSing (because Crisis Suits are explicitly forbidden from doing that by the wording in the Tau Codex). Which leaves you stuck immobile near the enemy, a prime target for an Assault.

Kroot actually do okay against GKs in Assault, thanks to fitting almost perfectly into the GK's weakness - which is to say, their relatively low number of attacks and difficulty in dealing with hordes of cheap models. They still tend to loose, like they usually do when anything half-capable gets into Assault with them, but they do better than they usually do. Although that doesn't stop them from doing their job of screening for the rest of the army.

So...Don't take Kroot? I've always been told that Tau work when you take a squad of minimum Fire Warriors, then spam whatever you want. Then fill points and mandatory FO slots with Kroot until finished.

That isn't the case?

Yeah, that is the case. One unit of Fire Warriors, maybe not a minimal unit, depending on your tastes, and the rest of your Troop choices are disposable Kroot to screen the rest of your army with.

Alternatively, you can take multiple units of minimal Fire Warriors, hidden in Devilfishes, and take units of Piranhas to screen with. But that tends to be ridiculously more expensive both in terms of points and currency.

[Ricky S]

I think what you mean is that tau work when you take minimal troops. Thats it. It doesn't really matter whether you take firewarriors or kroot. All the killing power is in the elites and heavy support slots. I take 2 units of firewarriors and a unit of kroot. I use the kroot not as a counter assault unit but as an infiltrating objective holder. It's easier to keep the enemy off an objective if you already hold it.

[Craftworld]

Last night at like...5 am...was it...I got ahold of my friend's Nid dex, and for the fun of it, I made this list. Tell me if it is good or I should tape it to a brick and throw it at someone to soak up the blood because that is its only use.

Spoiler

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Tervigon-Scything Talons, Catalyst
-180
Tervigon-Scything Talons, Catalyst
-180

Hive Guard-3
-150
Zoanthropes-2
-120
Zoanthropes-2
-120

Warriors-5, Boneswords, Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands
-225
Hormagaunts-30, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacks
-300
Hormagaunts-30, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacks
-300

Sky Slashers-5, Adrenal Glands, Toxic Sacks
-115
Gargoyles-10
-60

(Relooking at it, I notice that I have Tervigons and Hormagaunts...not the mixture, but it was 5 am so I really don't care...)

[Sila Prirode]

Last night at like...5 am...was it...I got ahold of my friend's Nid dex, and for the fun of it, I made this list. Tell me if it is good or I should tape it to a brick and throw it at someone to soak up the blood because that is its only use.

Spoiler

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Tervigon-Scything Talons, Catalyst
-180
Tervigon-Scything Talons, Catalyst
-180

Hive Guard-3
-150
Zoanthropes-2
-120
Zoanthropes-2
-120

Warriors-5, Boneswords, Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands
-225
Hormagaunts-30, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacks
-300
Hormagaunts-30, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacks
-300

Sky Slashers-5, Adrenal Glands, Toxic Sacks
-115
Gargoyles-10
-60

(Relooking at it, I notice that I have Tervigons and Hormagaunts...not the mixture, but it was 5 am so I really don't care...)

If you swap Hormagauts for Termis, you could give Tervigons Glands and Sacks, since all Termis around them get them for free. Then you just spawn a few on first turn and send them for objectives, and all others go forward like a giant wave of bodies.

[Hootman]

What, talking about Tyranids? Then it's a good thing I'm here--getting destroyed by Nids is my specialty!

This is (roughly) the list a friend used to take 2nd in the 'Ard Boyz prelims:

Spoiler

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HQ
Hive Tyrant
-Wings, Hive Commander, Lashwhip/Bonesword, Regeneration

Swarmlord

Tyrant Guard 2
-Lashwhips, joined to Swarmlord

ELITES
Hive Guard 3

Zoanthropes 3
+Mycetic Spore (Drop Pod)

Doom of Malantai
+Mycetic Spore (Drop Pod)

TROOPS
Termagants 10

Tervigon
-Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Catalyst

Termagants 10

Tervigon
-Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Catalyst

Hormagaunts 22
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

Genestealers 10
-Toxin Sacs, Broodlord

HEAVY SUPPORT
Trygon
-Adrenal Glands

The essential strategy of this list is to deep strike the Doom and Zoans and outflank the Genes and one other troop (Hive Commander is GOOD), starting with a 2+ to arrive on Turn 2 (did I mention Hive Commander stacks with the Swarmlord's Alien Cunning?). The rest of the list either hides or screens for the other monsters (Termagants), produce more troops for free (Tervigons) or rushes to the range where they can do their thing (Swarmy, Tyrant, Hormagaunts, Hive Guard). And then your day is ruined on Turn 2 when everything comes in.

I'll be able to post more later, but for now this should give people something to think about.


EDIT: Just thought I'd add a little bit while I had a few minutes.

Based on my experience fighting Nids, these are the best units in each slot:

HQ
Hive Tyrant, with Hive Commander and a pair of Tyrant Guard. Now you have 8 T6 musical wounds with a 4+ Cover Save (since you can hide the Guard)

ELITES
Venomthropes (1-2), but only at low points. Otherwise, sucks on too many S8+ shots and gets ID'd.
Zoanthropes (2-3), frequently in a Mycetic Spore-Pod, are always a good decision and are good for killing just about everything.
Hive Guard (3), 6 S8 shots per turn with a 24" Assault No-Line-Of-Sight-Needed gun makes Light and Medium vehicles cry.

TROOPS
Tervigon, producing extra Termagants and holding full-cover objectives like a boss.
Termagants (10), but only because they allow you to take Tervigons as troops.
Genestealers (about 7-12), because Init6 Outflanking S4 Poison (if you buy Toxin Sacs, and you should) RUINS MEq's, and Rending ruins everything else. Broodlord upgrade is roughly equivalent to buying 3 more genestealers, but has a better save (and 3 wounds) and makes music play. Plus, he has some psychic-type powers that aren't terrible.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Trygon (Prime or otherwise), with 6 T6 wounds, Fleet, and a surprisingly decent gun when you're already close enough, is pretty much guaranteed to ruin anything in melee.

You may notice that I didn't include Fast Attack; that would be because I don't know if the Nids actually have anything worth a damn in that slot. Harpy is use-impaired, Spore Mines are silly, and Shrikes are just Warriors with wings that have an inconvenient weakness to bolter-fire (seriously, their save goes down from 4+ to 5+ when you give them wings) and get ID'd by missiles. Gargoyles are, in theory, incredible (+1 point/model to make Termagants flying, and give them auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6? Yeah, sure, that sounds great!). However, I've never seen them in play, so I can't say for sure.

[Cheesegear]

What? Mech is king, you need mech.

No, you don't. I have never played Mech in my life until very recently with Imperial Guard, and I've been doing fine. In fact, Chaos Daemons came second at the tournament over the weekend specifically because it was designed to beat Mech (Fiendspam of Slaanesh). Las/Plas can't do jack because everything has an Invulnerable (Fateweaver gives everyone the finger) and S9 doesn't do jack because everything also has Eternal Warrior. And when you can negate Razorbacks like that, all that's left is minimum squads of five cowering in metal bawkses.

The Internet hates Chaos Daemons because they're unreliable. Not because they're no good. Just saying.

'Mech Is King' is an internet fallacy. Mech, is, currently 'the best' way to build most armies, but it has it's weaknesses. Particularly against All-Infantry. And, even then, the game comes down to dice rolls. Mech is about mitigating those dice rolls, but, it doesn't work 100%. Chance never does.

Nice, now compare [Tyranids] to IG [in regards to points per box].

I already proved my point, but, whatever.

It all depends on what Tyranid list you want to put together, and what Imperial Guard list you want to put together. But, I'll just stick to a round about list.

For starters, you want a Lord Commissar or Primaris Psyker. These come in blisters and are dirt cheap. Considering the rest of the hobby. Or you could halve the ratio and pick up Yarrick. He's alright.

Now, Guard, like Space Marines, have the added benefit that nearly all boxes you end up getting, are ultimately interchangable, or can be used for multiple selections in an army list.

The standard Infantry Squad box is 50 points. 70 points if you want to go Veterans and are looking to make an army on the cheap. Veterans are good. Get two of those boxes and you're looking at ~200 points.

Then buy a box of three Heavy Weapons. Get Lascannons. Then insert those into your Veteran Squads (congrats, you just freed up four Infantry models for later use). You've got one Heavy Weapon left over, which is currency saved when you buy your third Troops choice in a second.
No, you don't need Mech. Because your Lascannons have 9 wounds each. And Las/Plas Razorbacks only deal three wounds a turn, providing everything goes well - which it doesn't.

In $AU, we've so far spent $187. For nearly 300 points. The Battleforce is $190 for roughly the same stuff, and comes with a free Sentinel, and isntead of a Lord Commisar comes with half-price Order givers. Still, price and points aside, we have a Heavy Weapons squad left over and four Infantry. This is pretty solid. We can repeat this process as-needed for the rest of our armies' life. And end up with an All-Infantry Guard army that is currently the most powerful build around. Just keep buying Battleforces and you never run out of the best army in the game.

If you're even half-decent at conversions, you'll never run out of Heavy weapons (any kind!) again. Although, you may run out of Lascannons when -not if - you decide you want Vendettas.

What, talking about Tyranids? Then it's a good thing I'm here--getting destroyed by Nids is my specialty!

Y'know. I roll around the internet and hear stuff like "Tyranids is the worst 5th Ed. Codex" but, then I go to forums that are only semi-competitive (or non-competitive ) and IRL places and see "Holy crap Tyranids never lose!"

I almost always seem to stomp 'Nids into the ground. But, that's because I don't believe the players that I play that have 'Nids are any good, and in Tournaments my favourite army (Scouts!) falls apart against any solid block of Fearless units.

Based on my experience fighting Nids, these are the best units in each slot:

I'm going to disagree where appropriate.

Hive Tyrant, with Hive Commander and a pair of Tyrant Guard. Now you have 8 T6 musical wounds with a 4+ Cover Save (since you can hide the Guard)

Okay, I don't play 'Ard Boyz, and I don't personally know anyone who does, but this right here is 290 Points minimum and a Fire Magnet. You don't quite have Musical Wounds since you've got two models exactly the same, so that's bad. But I know the idea of Tyrant Guard, and they are good albeit expensive.

The Meta-Game hates Monstrous Creatures. When you've got a boatload of Wyches, whose train of thought is "On second thought, we'll stay in our Raider and shoot out of our open-topped vehicle with poison pistols" it's never good.
And that's not including other dedicated shooty armies like S6 Eldar, a properly built Space Marine army that just unloads with Plasma, Auto- and Las- cannons. Or Hell, Infantry Guard works. Bring It Down! and/or Fire on my Target! allows your opponent to slap your Hive Tyrant off the table and have it crash into a million pieces when it hits the wall/floor.

Swarmlord is good though. He's almost not fair. You can stack a second Hive Tyrant with him. But that leads to a build that is weird and relies on Reserves.

That being said, Alpha Warriors are a solid choice. Put them in a big unit of Warriors with Deathspitters, sit in cover and chill out. Get a second Alpha Warrior, put it in a unit of Warriors with Boneswords, and walk up the field behind some Termagants or Hormagaunts. Termagants are more fluffy. And better.

Tervigons are good HQs. But only when you've already got 3 as Troops.

Parasite sucks.

Zoanthropes (2-3), frequently in a Mycetic Spore-Pod, are always a good decision and are good for killing just about everything.

Unless your opponent is any kind of Space Marine variant, Eldar or other Tyranids that like to screw around with Psychic Powers.

Hive Guard (3), 6 S8 shots per turn with a 24" Assault No-Line-Of-Sight-Needed gun makes Light and Medium vehicles cry.

Yep.

Although Ymgarls are easily the best Elite choice. Go with 2 units of Hive Guard and one unit of Ymgarls. Or three units of Ymgarls. That works.

Tervigon
Termagants (10), but only because they allow you to take Tervigons as troops.

Tervigons and Termagants have the same theory behind Death Company and DC Dreads.
Only take the minimum amount of Termagants you need to take Tervigons. Take as many Tervigons as you're allowed.

...Admittedly, this is crazy expensive since NO! That is not a Tervigon, it's a Carnifex with dual-Talons!. Tervigons take work.

And you also need a metric s*load of Gants for the "[...] because you have run out of models, the excess is destroyed." Didn't somebody tell me 'Nids were cheaper than Guard? No? Yeah. I didn't think so.

Genestealers (about 7-12), because Init6 Outflanking S4 Poison (if you buy Toxin Sacs, and you should) RUINS MEq's, and Rending ruins everything else.

That works, but only if you're using the Swarmlord to re-roll Outflanks. A regular Hive Tyrant just doesn't cut it. Although, have both and you're rolling 2+ to Reserves which is alright. But, yeah. This is mostly the core of that build I was getting at above.

...You forgot Warriors. If you're not using Tervigons and are instead going for the Brick S*house list, the Termagants can provide Cover Saves for your Terminator-esque dual-Alpha Warriors who are about to tear everyone a new one. If you are using a Tervigon anyway (why wouldn't you? You took 10 Termagants, right?), use Catalyst on Warriors. It's fun times when a model with 3 Wounds has FNP.

Trygon (Prime or otherwise), with 6 T6 wounds, Fleet, and a surprisingly decent gun when you're already close enough, is pretty much guaranteed to ruin anything in melee.

I'm not that impressed by Trygons. It's part of the Reserves build, and I really think you need two or three to make it work. But, when you do that, you're not using Tyrannofecies or Mawlocs, and then Mech just laughs and laughs and laughs. Well, moreso than they are already after reading what the Errata did to Malan'Tai.

Gargoyles are, in theory, incredible (+1 point/model to make Termagants flying, and give them auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6? Yeah, sure, that sounds great!). However, I've never seen them in play, so I can't say for sure.

Gargoyles are good when they are, and terrible when they aren't. One of the few units in the game that is actually better when they Deep Strike than when they don't.

[Talkkno]

'Mech Is King' is an internet fallacy. Mech, is, currently 'the best' way to build most armies, but it has it's weaknesses. Particularly against All-Infantry. And, even then, the game comes down to dice rolls. Mech is about mitigating those dice rolls, but, it doesn't work 100%. Chance never does.

In a sense then, the "mech is king" feeds upon itself, where the mech is geared to beat other mech, hence the weakness against all-infantry builds?

[Cheesegear]

In a sense then, the "mech is king" feeds upon itself, where the mech is geared to beat other mech, hence the weakness against all-infantry builds?

Well, Mech was originally built to beat Khorne Rhino Rush Berzerker Spam and Lash Princes - The bane of 3.5 and 4th Ed. You can't be Lashed inside a vehicle, and the Berzerkers can't catch you when you're on fire in a vehicle. Although I could be wrong for what it was originally designed for. But those spring to mind when I think of the days before 5th Ed.

Mech was originally designed to beat All-Infantry, but, as newer Codecies come out, and there are plenty of Infantry (now) able to pierce vehicles one way or the other, vehicles get a whole lot less good when faced with Missile Spam Space Marines (a Space Marine/Wolves build where you don't need Rhinos!), Infantry Guard, and other such things.

The problem with MSU, is that when you can negate vehicles, the only letter that counts is the S. And then the guy with the most models on the board, wins. The problem with Orks and Tyranids, is that they can't negate vehicles in the first place without a little bit of work.

[Talkkno]

The problem with Orks and Tyranids, is that they can't negate vehicles in the first place without a little bit of work.

Speaking of orks, are big gunz(kannons) any good? I really don't want to use Killa Kans( as then i would have to take a KFF mek, I want to use weirdboy instead) They seem decent at a glance...

[Cheesegear]

Speaking of orks, are big gunz(kannons) any good? I really don't want to use Killa Kans( as then i would have to take a KFF mek, I want to use weirdboy instead) They seem decent at a glance...

Well, err. Sort of.

You're BS3, taking Kannons at the cost of Lobbas, which are Barrage weapons, which leads into Multiple Barrage which may as well be "Ignore BS3.", and then causes Pinning which is handy because it stops things from shooting at you with Boltguns. Unfortunately, there's not a lot else in the Ork army that causes Pinning that doesn't already come out of the Heavy Support slots of the 'dex. So, Pinning isn't really worth it. But, it's still S5, AP5 Multiple Barrage.

Zzap Guns don't auto-hit like they used to, but, you've still got BS3 which isn't terrible if you've got more than one. 2D6 Strength isn't bad, especially at AP2. The average is seven, and as long as you roll more than 4 you're good enough for most enemies, which is doable.

When all is taken into account though, Big Guns are taken instead of Killa Kans with Grotzookas (they're really good) or KMBs, Battlewagons with Killkannons or Looted Wagons with Boomguns.

Also, Lootas.

[Talkkno]

Well, err. Sort of.

You're BS3, taking Kannons at the cost of Lobbas, which are Barrage weapons, which leads into Multiple Barrage which may as well be "Ignore BS3.", and then causes Pinning which is handy because it stops things from shooting at you with Boltguns. Unfortunately, there's not a lot else in the Ork army that causes Pinning that doesn't already come out of the Heavy Support slots of the 'dex. So, Pinning isn't really worth it. But, it's still S5, AP5 Multiple Barrage.

Also, Lootas.

So assuming you are running a bunch of lootas as well, lobbas are the best choice out of the lot?

[evisiron]

Speaking of orks, are big gunz(kannons) any good? I really don't want to use Killa Kans( as then i would have to take a KFF mek, I want to use weirdboy instead) They seem decent at a glance...

If you have free Heavy slots, I would say Kannons are probably the most cost effective unit in the codex. For 69 points you have 3 short range missile launchers at BS3 with 3 re-rolls. In a codex with very little ranged anti tank that can scratch AV14, these guys are gold.

While I eventually had to drop them to free up heavy slots, while they were there they did great things. Just be careful to keep your fire lanes open, it can be tricky with just 36" range. Also, understand that anything that aims to kill them will probably succeed, so burn those re-rolls early.

[Talkkno]

Oh, seeing looted wagons mentioned, so boomguns are worth running despite the "Don't press dat!" drawback it seems?

[Cheesegear]

Oh, seeing looted wagons mentioned, so boomguns are worth running despite the "Don't press dat!" drawback it seems?

Probably not. But still better than a Kannon.

[Hootman]

Alright, I've generated a number of lists that I'm considering using for the next round of 'Ard Boyz, and while I would like to win, I honestly believe I have no chance. Outside of dice-based miracles, I'm just not a good enough general to win all three games. However, I still want to put up the best fight I can, so I would like to ask for some opinions on these 2500 point lists I've come up with.

1. Vanilla Marines: Master of the Forge & Dreadnoughts

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HQ
Master of the Forge, 185pts
-Conversion Beamer, Thunderhammer, Bike

ELITES
Ironclad, 190pts
-2 Heavy Flamers
+Drop Pod

Ironclad, 135pts
-Chainfist, Hurricane Bolters

Techmarine, 50pts

Servitor, 10pts
-Note: Takes up no FO Slot, generally hangs with the Techmarine

TROOPS
Tactical Marines 10, 260pts
-Melta, Lascannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-flamer
+Razorback

Tactical Marines 10, 260pts
-Melta, Lascannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-flamer
+Razorback

Tactical Marines 10, 260pts
-Melta, Lascannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-flamer
+Razorback

Tactical Marines 10, 260pts
-Melta, Lascannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-flamer
+Razorback

Scouts 10, 165pts
-Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
-Sergeant: Power Weapon, Sniper Rifle

Scouts 10, 175pts
-Combat Squad A: Sergeant with Powerfist & Shotgun, Shotguns
-Combat Squad B: Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder Storm, 60pts
-Heavy Flamer
+Carrying Scout Combat Squad A

Attack Bikes 2, 80pts

HEAVY SUPPORT
Dreadnought, 125pts
-2 Twin-Linked Autocannons

Dreadnought, 125pts
-2 Twin-Linked Autocannons

Vindicator, 120pts
-Dozer Blade

2. Vanilla Marines: Vulkan

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HQ
Vulkan He'stan, 190pts

Librarian, 140pts
-Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
-Powers: No idea.

ELITES
Assault Terminators 5, 460pts
-Thunderhammers & Storm Shields
+Land Raider Crusader (with Multimelta)

Ironclad, 200pts
-2 Heavy Flamers
+Drop Pod (with Locator Beacon)

Ironclad, 190pts
-DCCW & Heavy Flamer, Seismic Hammer & Meltagun
+Drop Pod (with Locator Beacon)

TROOPS
Tactical Marines 10, 240pts
-Flamer, Multimelta
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-Flamer
+Drop Pod

Tactical Marines 10, 240pts
-Melta, Multimelta
-Sergeant: Powerfist
+Rhino (with Dozer Blade)

Tactical Marines 10, 235pts
-Melta, Multimelta
-Sergeant: Powerfist
+Rhino

Tactical Marines 10, 235pts
-Melta, Multimelta
-Sergeant: Powerfist
+Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder, 60pts
-2 Heavy Flamers

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastators 5, 155pts
-2 Multimeltas
+Rhino

Devastators 5, 155pts
-2 Multimeltas
+Rhino

3. Blood Angels: Descent of Angels

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HQ's
Commander Dante, 225pts

Librarian, 125pts
-Jump Pack
-Powers: Shield of Sanguinus, Unleash Rage

ELITES
Sanguinary Priests 3, 270pts
-3 Power Weapons, 3 Jump Packs

Furioso Librarian, 175pts
-Powers: Blood Lance, Wings of Sanguinus

TROOPS
Sanguinary Guard 5, 250pts
-Powerfist & Infernus Pistol, 3 Infernus Pistols

Assault Marines 10, 235pts
-2 Meltas, Powerfist

Assault Marines 10, 230pts
-2 Meltas
-Sergeant: Power Weapon, Meltabombs

Assault Marines 10, 225pts
-2 Flamers
-Sergeant: Power Fist

Assault Marines 10, 220pts
-2 Flamers
-Sergeant: Lightning Claw, Meltabombs

FAST ATTACK
Baal Predator, 150pts
-Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Dozer Blade

Baal Predator, 145pts
-Flamestorm Cannon, Heavy Flamer Sponsons, Dozer Blade

Baal Predator, 145pts
-Flamestorm Cannon, Heavy Flamer Sponsons, Dozer Blade

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator, 105pts
-Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Dozer Blade

4. Blood Angels: Flesh Tearers & Dreadnoughts

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HQ
Gabriel Seth, 160pts

Librarian, 145pts
-Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
-Powers: Unleash Rage, Shield of Sanguinus

ELITES
Sanguinary Priests 2, 140pts
-Both: Power Weapon & Meltabombs

Furioso Dreadnought, 170pts
-Frag Cannon, Heavy Flamer
+Drop Pod

Furioso Dreadnought Librarian, 175pts
-Powers: Wings of Sanguinus, The Blood Lance

TROOPS
Assault 5, 150pts
-Melta, Power Weapon & Meltabombs
+Razorback

Assault 5, 155pts
-Melta, Power Fist
+Razorback

Assault 5, 145pts
-Flamer, Lightning Claw & Meltabombs
+Razorback

Death Company 10, 510pts
-Thunderhammer, 2 Plasma Pistols
+Land Raider Crusader

Death Company Dreadnought, 125pts
-Blood Talons

Death Company Dreadnought, 125pts
-Blood Talons

FAST ATTACK
Vanguard Veterans 5, 230pts
-2 Storm Shields, Powerfist, Glaive Encarmine

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator, 140pts
-Autocannon with Lascannon Sponsons, Dozer Blade

Devastators 5, 130pts
-4 Missile Launchers

5. Vanilla Marines: Drown Them In Plasma

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HQ
Master of the Forge, 120pts
-Conversion Beamer

Servitors 4, 115pts
-2 Plasma Cannons

Master of the Forge, 120pts
-Conversion Beamer

Servitors 4, 115pts
-2 Plasma Cannons

ELITES
Techmarine, 50pts

Servitors 4, 115pts
-2 Plasma Cannons

Techmarine, 50pts

Servitors 4, 115pts
-2 Plasma Cannons

Techmarine, 50pts

Servitors 4, 115pts
-2 Plasma Cannons

TROOPS
Tactical 10, 290pts
-Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-Melta
+Razorback (with Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasmagun)

Tactical 10, 290pts
-Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-Melta
+Razorback (with Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasmagun)

Tactical 10, 290pts
-Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-Melta
+Razorback (with Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasmagun)

Tactical 10, 290pts
-Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-Melta
+Razorback (with Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasmagun)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Dreadnought, 125pts
-Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon

Dreadnought, 125pts
-Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon

Dreadnought, 125pts
-Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon

This last list is pretty much just for trollan', but if I didn't kill myself with all Gets Hot! rolls, it could actually do decently for a turn or two.

I apologize for just posting a zillion lists, but I figure that's more or less what this thread is for anyways. Have fun, comment and critique away!

[Renegade Paladin]

The Vulkan list: Multimeltas are heavy weapons, and so cannot be fired from the Rhino on the move. I'd give that serious consideration; I've seen what happens to sitting Rhinos, and it isn't pretty.

[gabado]

in the case of sternguard veteran squad, can the storm bolter fire special issue ammunition? in the rules text it says that every model armed with a bolter can fire special issue ammunition, does the storm bolter count as bolter for the purposes of firing special issue ammunition?

[Cheesegear]

Alright, I've generated a number of lists that I'm considering using for the next round of 'Ard Boyz.

Noted.

Vanilla Marines: Master of the Forge & Dreadnoughts

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Master of the Forge, 185pts
-Conversion Beamer, Thunderhammer, Bike

Independent Characters should never go last unless they can hack it. Something along the lines of a 3+ Invulnerable, 4 Wounds and Eternal Warrior. Unless you've got that, go with a Power Weapon instead. Add Melta Bombs.

Ironclad, 190pts
-2 Heavy Flamers
+Drop Pod

Yep.

Ironclad, 135pts
-Chainfist, Hurricane Bolters

A walking Ironclad without HK Missiles? That's just weird.

Techmarine, 50pts

Servitor, 10pts
-Note: Takes up no FO Slot, generally hangs with the Techmarine

I guess. Though I don't see the point.

Tactical Marines 10, 260pts
-Melta, Lascannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-flamer
+Razorback

Problem with the Las-Melta combo is that you kind of need to Combat Squad every game. Even in Annihilation when you don't want to. I'd consider dropping the Melta for a Plasmagun. But that's me.

Tactical Marines 10, 260pts
-Melta, Lascannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-flamer
+Razorback

Ditto.

Tactical Marines 10, 260pts
-Melta, Lascannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-flamer
+Razorback

Double ditto.

Tactical Marines 10, 260pts
-Melta, Lascannon
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-flamer
+Razorback

QUADRA-COOKIE CUT!!!

I'd drop this last squad, and upgrade all previous Razorbacks to Las/Plas Combos.

Scouts 10, 165pts
-Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
-Sergeant: Power Weapon, Sniper Rifle

No Power Fist?

[I]Scouts 10, 175pts
-Combat Squad A: Sergeant with Powerfist & Shotgun, Shotguns
-Combat Squad B: Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher

Land Speeder Storm, 60pts
-Heavy Flamer[I]

Sure.

Attack Bikes 2, 80pts

y u no Multi-Meltas?

Dreadnought, 125pts
-2 Twin-Linked Autocannons

Dreadnought, 125pts
-2 Twin-Linked Autocannons

Vindicator, 120pts
-Dozer Blade

1, 2, 3, 4 Dreadnoughts. Okay, you're not completely wasting a Master of the Forge. My main problem with the list is the Master of the Forge. I get that a Conversion Beamer is really good. I get that a Conversion Beamer works best on a Bike. The problem is that he doesn't go anywhere. Where do you put him so that he isn't wasting the squad-he's-deployed-with's time, and where the squad isn't wasting his time?

No Devastators, no other Bikes in the list. As far as I'm concerned, the Master is a free Kill Point in this list and so therefore should be as cheap as possible. And the Techmarine+Servitor is two Kill Points.

I just don't think you've done this right.
You're playing 'Ard Boyz, so I'll tell you straight. And I'm going to hate myself for it. But, Copy this. Swap the Predators to Dreads. Swap the Librarian out for a Master o' the Forge (or keep the Librarian in), swap one Dread for an Ironclad in Drop Pod, etc. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

Hey, I'm allowed to bring that list up. I wrote just. Just no-one else is.

Vanilla Marines: Vulkan

Feel the burn.

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Vulkan He'stan, 190pts

He'Stan in a He'Stan list? Really? I mean, if that's what you want to do...

Librarian, 140pts
-Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
-Powers: No idea.

Null Zone. Is God.

Assault Terminators 5, 460pts
-Thunderhammers & Storm Shields
+Land Raider Crusader (with Multimelta)

That's points you could be spending on more Land Speeders. It's an attractive option. But it all only leads to overkill, or getting your opponent a target to shoot at in the first turn. It's good when it can start in Reserve, and the only reason you'd start your best unit in Reserve is if you're using Kor'Sarro. Which you aren't.

I'd consider just Deep Striking the Terminators and spending the 260 points on something better.

Ironclad, 200pts
-2 Heavy Flamers
+Drop Pod (with Locator Beacon)

Ironclad, 190pts
-DCCW & Heavy Flamer, Seismic Hammer & Meltagun
+Drop Pod (with Locator Beacon)

Sure. Yep. With Double Locator Beacons, it makes me wonder why you're taking a Land Raider in 'Ard Boyz where it's just going to eat Lascannon.

Tactical Marines 10, 240pts
-Flamer, Multimelta
-Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-Flamer
+Drop Pod

Yep.

Tactical Marines 10, 240pts
-Melta, Multimelta
-Sergeant: Powerfist
+Rhino (with Dozer Blade)

Tactical Marines 10, 235pts
-Melta, Multimelta
-Sergeant: Powerfist
+Rhino

Tactical Marines 10, 235pts
-Melta, Multimelta
-Sergeant: Powerfist
+Rhino

MOAR Drop Pods! Especially because you've got Locator Beacons.

Land Speeder, 60pts
-2 Heavy Flamers

In a He'Stan list, not having Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers on your Land Speeders is like a slap in the face to Jervis Johnson. He gave up his game to give you the greatest thing ever and you refuse it.

Devastators 5, 155pts
-2 Multimeltas
+Rhino

Devastators 5, 155pts
-2 Multimeltas
+Rhino

wat
No. For 150 Points you can have Devastators with x4 Missiles each. Do that instead.

3. Blood Angels: Descent of Angels

I quite like it. Except that is has too many vehicles. That aren't Stormravens.
In a DoA list, any vehicle that can't potentially carry Jump Infantry is a waste of time.

Baal Predators are good for an Outflank, but, they don't have DoA like the rest of your army and wont come until later.

4. Blood Angels: Flesh Tearers & Dreadnoughts

It's good. But I'll say again that I don't like BA Predators. You can swap for another Dreadnought! for the same role.

I apologize for just posting a zillion lists, but I figure that's more or less what this thread is for anyways. Have fun, comment and critique away!

Yeah. I flagged towards the end (could you tell?). And now I don't particularly want to write my own long post. I might come back later tonight.

in the case of sternguard veteran squad, can the storm bolter fire special issue ammunition? in the rules text it says that every model armed with a bolter can fire special issue ammunition, does the storm bolter count as bolter for the purposes of firing special issue ammunition?

I think you'll find that the rules stipulate Boltguns. Storm Bolter != Boltgun. The words are largely interchangeable (and apparently the difference is waived in regards to Combi-Weapons and Sternguard), but Storm Bolters are not Bolters.

[Timberwolf]

Got to agree with Cheesegear here. I've never liked Predators all that much be they Codex Marines, Space Wolves or BA because all it takes is a glancing hit and they're useless for a turn. If I really feel the need for lascannony goodness, I'll deploy my schizophrenic landraider over them because it's far more likely to keep shooting as long as it's still got guns. Baal Predators do Dakka better than Dakkapreds as well so I don't even own a basic Predator model.

For that list, maybe drop a power weapon from the priests, the Dakka Pred and the Dakka Baal Predator and pick up a Drop pod for your Librarian Dread. You now have the points and a slot for a squad of Vanguard which are tooled enough to be good (2 Storm Shields, power fist and Jump packs comes to 230 points) if you can find it from somewhere, try to squeeze a locator beacon in the pod, drop in next to something you really want dead like, on a personal note, lootas or Obliterators, pop smoke on the Dreadnought when it lands. Then, hopefully, laugh maniacally as your opponent tries to kill arguably the toughest Dreadnought out there (Shield of Sanguinius ftw as it covers the Drop pod as well, even if you did pop smoke) leaving themselves hopefully open to being Heroically Intervened on the next turn (who tries to waste a drop pod with a cover save when there's a big, nasty Dreadnought that's going to assault you next turn if you leave it ? Even if they do manage to kill the Dreadnought, which will take melta to do reliably and, because you popped smoke, has a 50 % chance of not working at all, the pod should survive to bring in the VV's and any assault marines you want to land next to it).

I agree with CG on another point applied to a different list, your Flesh Tearers are suffering from a severe lack of Gunship. I can happily squeeze 3 and 3 Dreadnoughts in a 1750 list so I know it can be done. Of course, I take scouts which gives me the points to do this and that's a very, very different list to what you have, however, the extra 750 points is definitely enough to get at least 2 in. The Death Company Dreads really need transport. They'll be priority targets and AV 12 isn't really enough to footslog with.

Losing the Vanguard will give you the points for 1. Losing the Predator will give you the slot for another, the gunship will be able to fill it's role well enough and possibly better given that it's a lot harder to kill, can split fire and can pack a lascannon while getting close enough to use a multimelta and drop the dreadnought where it will kill things dead instead of dying horribly 12 inches from where it started. If you lose the plasma pistols as well as the Predator then you have enough points for a straight gunship with no sponsons. If you don't take the sponsons on either gunship, lose the Vanguard and the Predator and the plasma pistols then you have enough for 2 gunships.

[Cheesegear]

So, it appears that the thread has slowed down.

So, here's a fun topic that no one cares about;
What tank does Chronus go in?

[Penguinizer]

A more important question, what tank does Pasc go in?

He seems like he wants a high str tank with his tank hunter and extra str but the Demolisher doesn't have that much range for capitalizing on it.

[Cheesegear]

He seems like he wants a high str tank with his tank hunter and extra str but the Demolisher doesn't have that much range for capitalizing on it.

You don't use Pask to kill Tanks. You've already got fifty million things that can do that already. If you don't, you're playing Guard completely wrong.

You play Pask to give one of your tanks BS4. And re-rolling To Wound against MCs. So, Exterminator with trip Heavy Bolters.

[Ricky S]

I agree with cheesegear on pask. He always goes in the tank with the most shots to capitalise on the higher BS.

Why all the hate for the predator? They are pretty good gun platforms.

[Timberwolf]

Just thought I'd post a quick battle report, my Blood Angels vs the local blackshirt's Chaos. This was a rematch after last week when I was using an experimental list vs the Blackshirts standard, usual Chaos list. It did not go well.

The lists

Me

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Librarian Inquisitor Alexandra
Sanguine Sword
Shield of Sanguinius

Sternguard x 9
9 Combi meltas
powerfist
Drop pod (Curse you Blood Angels Drop pods for only carrying 10 !)

Scouts
Sniper rifles
missile launcher

Scouts
Sniper rifles
missile launcher

Baal Predator
H/B sponsons

Vindicator

Predator
H/B Sponsons

t'Blackshirt

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Chaos Sorceror
Lash of Submission
?

Khorne Berserkers
Powerfist
2 plasma pistols
Rhino

Chaos Marines
Plasma gun
lascannon

5 x Obliterators

Mission was annihilation, Dawn of War. Obviously this was meant to count as that was what we had last week. The blackshirt wins the roll and goes first, setting up his Rhinos right on the edge of the DZ, hiding behind some buildings, and the Chaos marines hiding in a big ruin. I set up my scouts in my ruin.

Turn 1

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With nothing to shoot at barring some scouts in cover, the rhino with the berserkers moves close to my scouts. The Sorceror lash of Submissions one squad into moving down 2 levels of the building they're in, His Obliterators move on and don't quite get into the building.

In a perfect example of Suicide Sternguard, my pod lands easily within 12 Inches of the Obliterators who aren't quite in cover. While I would have loved to have taken 10 so I could combat squad, regrettably I needed the space for my Librarian. Never mind. My Predators and Vindicator move on, Predators in 1 corner, Vindicator in the other. I move the scouts who couldn't shoot back up a level.

Shooting... this will long live in my memory as a great round. My sternguard Combi melta his big squad of Obliterators into charred dust. My predators both fail to crack open the rhino to leave the contents vulnerable to Vindication. I try with the scouts that can fire, reluctantly accepting in my head that it may be necessary to use the Vindicator. I shoot. 1 scout hits with a sniper rifle. Pathetic. I roll anyway, it's a 6. I roll again for the rend. It's a 5... penetrating hit. I roll again. IT'S A 6 ! BOOM ! 4 Berserkers die in the explosion. The other 3 and the Sorceror were out of LoS of the Vindicator, so I fire that at the Chaos marines and clip 2.

Round 2.

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The Sorceror splits from the berserkers and LoS's my Sternguard squad towards him. The Obliterators move into Prime Plasma Cannoning positions and the Chaos marines move to get into rapid fire position. My sternguard look screwed. The Berserkers run into the ruin where my scouts are. As was confidently predicted, plasma death rained on my Sternguard. Shield of Sanguinius saved a few, but I lost 6 to the Plasma and another 1 to the marines rapid fire (he only scored 6 hits though...) The Sorceror assaults the Sternies and Librarian killing another 1 before the powerfist smashes his face in and he fails his saves. The Beserkers wipe out the scout squad really very easily and consolidate down a level.

My Vindicator rumbles forward while the Sternguard and Librarian move to within engagement range of the 2 remaining Obliterators. My Predators both clip a berserker each, leaving the skull champion. My scouts do nothing to him. The Vindicator claims another chaos marine.

Meanwhile, Inquisitor Alexandra remembers she had her Weetabix that morning and, fully roided up, charges the Obliterators. It isn't pretty. 3 hits at s10, 3 wounds, 3 failed Invulnerable saves. total overkill and I still had the powerfist in reserve.

Turn 3

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Realising that the jig was pretty much up, The blacksirt decides that the time has come to play for the draw. Seeing 3 relatively easy kill points in the drop pod, Sternguard sergeant and Librarian, he decides to charge them with his remaining chaos marines. He pulls the Rhino into a ruin, hidden from my predators by a bastion blocking LoS.

Shooting from bolt pistols takes a wound off Inquisitor Alexandra and the resulting charge kills her and the sergeant, but not before they take 3 more marines with them. The berserker champion chrages my scouts, kills one and then dies to a single wound inflicted by the Sergeant

My turn was spent getting LoS again, moving the Vindicator in range. fast vehicles are great.

Turn 4

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Rapid fire plasma gunning kills the drop pod.

I open fire on the Rhino with both predators, finally getting through with the assault cannons and wrecking it. My vindicator scatters badly and gets no hits.

Turn 5.

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In a massive oversight, I left my Vindicator in charge range of the marines. In a last attempt to kill something, the chaos marines charge, 3 Krak grenades hit, no damage and on that, my opponent conceded as, to be honest, all I needed to do was pull the Vindicator back 2 inches and the Dakka preds were waiting for him as well and it would be a tabling

A good fun game. Last week avenged as this time I took solid, reliable units instead of fooling around with DoA. I shall remember this list.

[Ninja Chocobo]

You play Pask to give one of your tanks BS4. And re-rolling To Wound against MCs. So, Exterminator with trip Heavy Bolters.

Exterminator?
Y'know you can get a Hydra for like, half that, right?

e: In fact, Pask and the HB sponsons is almost enough for another Hydra, and having the same number of HB shots, and three times as many Executioner shots, seems preferable to me.

[Hootman]

So, it appears that the thread has slowed down.

So, here's a fun topic that no one cares about;
What tank does Chronus go in?

Normally I would just assume "None, he's too expensive" and move on, but I'm going to assume for a moment you're serious (and possibly about to teach me/us something) and try to go tank by tank.

TANKS:

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Land Raider - BS 5 is somewhat useful, as your Twin-Linked-Everything kind of makes it less relevant. You've got 5 shots/turn, but only if you sit still. Doubt this is the best choice.

LR Crusader - Not a bad decision-everything is still twin-linked, but you have a such a high volume of shots that you actually may start benefiting again. Also, this is the Raider you almost always consider buying a Multimelta for, and a BS 5 Multimelta is a wonderful thing indeed. I don't know about you guys, but when I used to take my LRC into games, I'd strap a Multi on top and...never hit anything, ever. This is also the best tank to fill with Dedicated Assault Units (Hammernators, roided up Assault Marines or Death Company, etc/etc), so it's mad rush for the front lines can be supplemented well by Chronus's inability to be shaken or stirred.

LR Redeemer - AHAHAHAHAH-NO. Template weapons don't use BS (if he Twin-Linked, that would be SO different), so the only thing you get from taking him here is a huge pile of wasted points.

Predator - Despite the consistently poor performance of my own Predator, this is probably one of the best places to put Chronus. The Auto-Las variant only gets 4 shots when it sits still, but those 4 shots are all the type that really need to hit consistently to be worth the points you spent on them to begin with. The Auto-Bolters variant also benefits nicely, making the tank quite good at anti-infantry (and theoretically, anti-transports). The high volume of fire benefits again, but since this time it didn't start twin-linked, you won't feel like you're wasting your time. Good choice either way, as far as I can tell.

Vindicator - BS 5 isn't worth the points for large blast templates, but I suppose the negation of shaken and stunned could come in handy. Honestly, I'd expect a Vindicator to just get ruined on the 2nd or 3rd turn because it's a huge fire magnet, and side armor 11 doesn't do squat against any real anti-tank weapons. If it had longer range, maybe it would be better.

Whirlwind - Poor unit to begin with, barely benefits from BS 5, could stay out of LoS if you were really worried about getting shot at. No chance.

Based on what I can see, he fits Predators and LRC's best. If I had both in my army and had to pick one, I'd probably put him with the Predator, so I didn't miss my opportunities to pop tanks/transports early on. However, I really don't think he's worth the points he costs--he's basically just a tank-buff that gives your opponent an extra kill point from ruining your tank (and therefore, extra incentive to do so).

I'm curious to know what other people think.

[Zorg]

I've run Chronus in a AC/HB predator and he did great - the improved BS and ignoring Shaken and Stunned (no need for ex-armour, so 15pts saved there) make it a perfect infantry killing platform.

In one game against guard he was killing 7-8 guys a turn, and the Autocannon becomes much better at light AT with the accuracy boost.
Being able to leap out of the fireball and run around killing things afterwards is fun too.

[Cheesegear]

Why all the hate for the predator? They are pretty good gun platforms.

Under Codex Marines, yes. Dark Angels? Ditto.
Under Space Wolves; Long Fangs.
Under Blood Angels; You're a Fast vehicle, with - nominally - three weapons, none of which are Defensive, and you're paying extra points just to be a Fast vehicle that never moves. Autocannon Dreads are in your Heavy Slots as well for 25 points less. And then there's Stormravens.
Black Templars; They're slightly too expensive, and all the points you spend on Predators is just less Land Raiders or Crusaders (the squad, not the tank).

In fact, Pask and the HB sponsons is almost enough for another Hydra, and having the same number of HB shots, and three times as many Executioner shots, seems preferable to me.

I 100% agree. Don't get me wrong.
The question is, if you are going to take Pask or Chronus, where are they going to go?

[Timberwolf]

Pask I don't really know what he does beyond BS 4, the only time I've seen him used was in a Vanquisher that I kinda combimeltaed on Turn 1... yesterday as it happens.

Chronus I've at least seen used. I've got to say that a dakkapred is where I'd put him. Decreasing the Scatter by an inch on a Vindi isn't worth it. Anything that can benefit from him is Twin linked on a Landraider variant and a laspred also has a T/L weapon and won't benefit as much.

Yep, Autocannon and H/B predator all the way for him.

[BoSheck]

Hi all! Got another battle to share! This time I was playing a refresher game with a young man who hadn't played in a while. He wanted to freshen up his rules knowledge and test out an upcoming tournament list. He thought I'd be bringing my usual foot slogging, wolf riding, missile launching Sons of Russ, but I've been wanting to stretch the legs (wheels?) on my almost-finished Dark Angels army for quite some time--casual games are the place to do that. I'm going to get a new camera one of these days and start bringing pictures to these parties!
On with the show!

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Lists:
Ravenwing

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205 - Sammuel on Speeder
130 - Chaplain on Bike
475 - RWAS #1 : 6 Bikes, MM AB, Powerfist, Plasma Pistol, Apoc, 2x Plasma Guns, Landspeeder Tornado
210 - RWAS #2 - 3 Bikes, MM AB, 2x Meltaguns, Power Sword, meltabombs
145 - RWAS #3 - 3 Bikes, 2x Meltaguns, meltabombs
130 - Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon, Heavy Flamer
130 - Dreadnought with Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer
75 - Landspeeder Typhoon

Eldar list:

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Eldrad Ulthran
1x Avatar
5x Pathfinders
10x Dire Avengers w/ power weapon, shimmershield
10x Dire Avengers w/ power weapon, shimmershield
8x(ish) Guardians
5x Fire dragons in:
1x Falcon, Bright Lance
3x Dark reapers w/ EML, Fast Shot
3x Dark reapers w/ Tempest Launcher, Fast Shot
3x Jetbikes

The Game

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I bumped a couple of tables together and we picked some cool terrain pieces out and crammed them all in one corner to make sure we'd have 25% coverage. After setting the table up, I went over the standard random game generation with him. We ended up with five objectives on Seize Ground and spread them liberally through the table. I rolled up pitched battle, a favorite at our local club.

He won the roll to go first and began to set up his army. Putting the Dark Reapers on some great terrain pieces with a little height, he had two solid lanes of fire. The Avengers set up a gunline in the middle, screened by guardians with Eldrad positioned to help everybody out, while the Avatar hunkered behind a burnt out silo taunting the Unforgiven's Second Company to charge into the Eldar Lines. The Falcon parks in the back corner, hidden by stony ruins.

The Ravenwing set up largely trying to deny his few heavy weapons cover, not terribly concerned with the mass of splinter rifle fire. Dreadnoughts and Sammuel screen the two lightly armored speeders. Ravenwing Squadron #2 sets up to take out the Falcon, while all the other bikers park across from the Guardians and Avengers. Various bikes scout forward, sneaking behind cover, ready to zip out and unleash the fury of the Emperor at the first opportunity.

Initiative is NOT seized.

Turn 1:
His first turn was fairly good. Eldrad popped off a Doom on the nearest Bike Squad and guided the two units of Avengers. The ensuing firestorm wiped 4 bikes and an attack bike out, with the plasma cannon dreadnought being stunned by the Pathfinders. His Falcon hangs out in the back and takes a pot shot at Sammuel.

Speeders and the Assault cannon Dreadnought spread out while the bikes in RWAS #2 turbo boost to the other side of the ruins housing some Dark Reapers. The multimelta moves a full 12", hoping for a decent shot at about 20 inches on the Falcon. Squad #1 moves forward, ready to take down one of those Dire Avenger threats. Assault Cannons, Plasmaguns, Heavy Bolters, and Boltguns unload on the guardians (caught in the open) and the dire avenger squad behind them, resulting in a satisfying retaliatory effort. The Multimelta manages to immobilize the Falcon, while the Typhoon scores two Weapon Destroyed results, leaving it a useless hull.

Turn 2:
Creeping the Avatar around the ruined silo he'd been hiding behind, Eldrad's forces scramble to support each other. Fire dragons sneak around their Falcon, moving to intercept the bikers heading for the Dark Reapers. The Jetbikes boost from cover in the backfield, up closer to midfield while the guardians, dark reapers, and avengers unload on the large bike squad. Feel No Pain largely mitigates the cover denying AP3 shots, though the fisted sergeant dies, as does the plasma gunner 4 or 5 avengers charge into the bikes, in a quagmire that will last 4 player turns despite the presence of a Chaplain (whose bolt pistol I forgot, now that I think about it).

Dreadnoughts and speeders both maneuver to take the midfield and grand each other cover from likely threats. Assault cannon rounds, missile fire and heavy bolter munitions scream through the air, reducing a mere 3 of the second group of Guardians to a grape-colored pulp, while a plasma cannon shot scatters off of them onto Eldrad (standing by his lonesome). My last attack bike stuns the Falcon. Saturated fire does little to the dark reapers in the back, but they're locked in assault with an equal number of Unforgiven soon enough. The Guardians in the midfield engaged with RWAS #1 are unable to hurt the toughness 5 bikers, while the Chaplain & Co. couldn't hit the broad side of a space hulk with a chainsword.

Turn 3:

With little shooting power left, and two dreadnoughts rapidly descending on his army, the Eldar scramble to fall back, while the Avatar trying to creep forward gets bogged down in terrain, slowed further by it's previous two terrible run rolls. Fire dragons completely toast the poor Attack bike that had been harassing the immobile Falcon (looking back, I should have pulled that bike back after the weapons were mostly blown off the thing). The seven surviving The total suckfest in the middle continues, while Guided Guardians bladestorm into a speeder that had cruised a little too close to the front line--my scoring Tornado. The Assault cannon is taken as a casualty. A few shots with an eldar missile launcher from the other Dark Reapers immobilize the Assault Cannon Dreadnought, while the other heavy weapons team falls to the marines locked in melee with them.

The tornado zips away to an objective in the back as the Plasma Cannon dreadnought trundles forward onto of the terrain previously occupied by the speeder, while the other bike squadron speeds out of range of the nearby Fusion Guns, intent on harassing the eldar jetbikes with their own melta-weapons. Sammuel puts some distance between himself and the rapidly closing Avatar. The volume of firepower is disappointing this turn, as the Dire Avengers are a few inches outside the range of the remaining cannons in the army, cover (and lost of 1s) protects the rest from dieing en masse the heavy bolter fire. A dreadnought finally charges into the 3 turn stalemate with the first Dire Avenger group, and the infuriating shimmershield finally fails. The Apothecary and Chaplain (the only survivors) consolidate back, while the dreadnought presents itself to the Dire Avengers menacingly. The other ravenwing squad fire meltaguns ineffectually at the jetbikes, charging them and ending in a tied combat with 1 loss on each side.

Turn 4: Intent on cutting off my ability to win by denying me troops, the dark reapers with the EML jump down from their terrain, running forward. Everything left on the back field moves to support the two jetbikes locked in combat with the sergeant and biker. Guardians fall back from the Dreadnought, trying to hold onto a nearby objective. The Avatar moves into position to charge my immobilized dreadnought, but isn't quite close enough. Snipers bounce shots off it, as well.

With little moving to do, I make sure that I don't lose on objectives, as what was something that felt like a loss had become a salvageable game. The plasma dread now has a firm control of midfield, positioning himself at the end of the line of Avengers, Promethium flows from the heavy flamer on it's bloody arm, almost wiping the eldar troops out that instant, while the remains of the army unloads into the Avatar, felling it in one round of shooting. A handy assault cleans the midfield up, with three Dire Avengers fleeing for home, while the bike combat remains a stalemate.

Turn 5: With not much left, eldrad and a few guardians try to help the bikes, while the dark reapers destroy my objective squatting tornado. Pathfinders hop out of their cover, creating a conga line to a nearby objective. Despite all the warp-fueled sorcery aiding them, the jetbikes still fall to the sergeant's power sword.

Those same bikers roll onto the central objective, and make to charge the nearby retreating eldar, who fail their morale check and are instantly wiped. Sammuel and the Typhoon speeder take care of the dark reapers while the dreadnought meets with those Pathfinders--without their cover save, they're reduced to a single man in the ensuing carnage. Having no troops left and denied any firepower and mobility to threaten my remaining units, my foe concedes.


Afterthoughts: Well, having finally played this army by itself at a point level it is shooting for without being COMPLETELY bloated with wargear, I have to say that it's SO different from my usual army. It's going to take some getting used to, but I appreciate a change in playstyle. I'd been thinking about replacing the dreadnoughts with 2 more Typhoon landspeeders, but those considerations are going toward the Chaplain--who might be unsatisfying due to the fact I forgot his pistol and only managed a charge with a 3 man squad counting him. I forget if he can take a combi-melta, but that might be worth looking into. ~140 is basically what I pay for a meltagun on 3 wounds of bikers, so it's not too far out there to consider him equivilant--just with a free power weapon and invulnerable save. The dreads both performed admirably, but the assault cannon one is overcosted and will probably be changed to another plasma dread, if not phased out of 1500 point games for another typhoon + candy.