Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Ricky S]

With an army like that he might as well just be playing vanilla marines.

I have an honour guard for the new army I am making and I have the following special weapons that I could use. 4 flamers, 2 plasma, 2 meltas. I cant decide whether to just take 4 flamers and dedicate the unit to anti infantry or take the 2 plasmas and 2 meltas and turn it into an anti meq/anti tank unit.

[Cheesegear]

With an army like that he might as well just be playing vanilla marines.

Almost seems like that was what he was doing until maybe someone in his life told him about Blood Angels. A Blood Angels army without Assault Marines - with or without vehicles - is certainly a bit weird and doesn't really happen ever unless you've Codex Hopped from Codex Marines or Wolves.

I have an honour guard for the new army I am making and I have the following special weapons that I could use. 4 flamers, 2 plasma, 2 meltas. I cant decide whether to just take 4 flamers and dedicate the unit to anti infantry or take the 2 plasmas and 2 meltas and turn it into an anti meq/anti tank unit.

Don't go 2/2. It'll mess you up. Take 4 of something. If it has to be Flamers, well it has to be Flamers.

[Timberwolf]

Almost seems like that was what he was doing until maybe someone in his life told him about Blood Angels. A Blood Angels army without Assault Marines - with or without vehicles - is certainly a bit weird and doesn't really happen ever unless you've Codex Hopped from Codex Marines or Wolves.

I do get the feeling I'm somewhat different in not really liking assault marines, not owning a single Razorback, not really fielding jump pack infantry at all and finding Mephiston too rich for my blood. I use a the other Blood Angels unique stuff though, so I'm surely not irredeemable.

[HalfTangible]

I do get the feeling I'm somewhat different in not really liking assault marines, not owning a single Razorback, not really fielding jump pack infantry at all and finding Mephiston too rich for my blood. I use a the other Blood Angels unique stuff though, so I'm surely not irredeemable.

And here I thought assault marines being troops was the major reason to take BA...

[Timberwolf]

Stormravens, Talon Dreadnoughts, Death Company, Baal Predators, all of which I like and routinely take. However, I refuse to be bound by the idea that my troops choices must be assault marines.

[Ricky S]

Don't go 2/2. It'll mess you up. Take 4 of something. If it has to be Flamers, well it has to be Flamers.

Yea thats what I thought too. Flamers it'll be then. I will get a satisfied feeling when I place down four flamer templates and roast a whole bunch of something .

I am lacking in anti tank though. How viable would assault cannons be as anti tank? Say if I take an assault cannon on each of my razorbacks?

[Cheesegear]

I am lacking in anti tank though. How viable would assault cannons be as anti tank?

4s to Glance AV10. So, not really.

[Incomp]

4s to Glance AV10. So, not really.

So what? They have four shots. I've seen the math before, and you've seen the math before, and I can tell you that assault cannons are strictly better than lascannons as anti-tank weapons.

For those of you who hate mathammer, don't open the spoiler.

Spoiler

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Alright. I'm going to assume target is AV13, a relatively common front armor.

For the lascannon: 2/3 chance to hit. Then you need a four to glance, or a which is a 1/2 chance. Therefore, the average number of "effects" you would score against an AV13 enemy is 1/3.

As for the assault cannon: You have four shots, with 2/3 chance to hit each. This is an average of 8/3 hits. It's already pretty. Then, at strength 6, you'll need a 6 to in inflict any sort of effect, which is all I'm looking at here. 8/3*1/6=8/18, or 4/9 as the average number of effects inflicted. Taking a look above at the lascannon's stats, you can see that 4/9>1/3, and therefore, is a better tank-hunter.

Now, those of you who are going to say, "yeah, it's better in this instance," or whatever, do the other four test-runs yourself. Or just playtest it. You'll see.

[Cheesegear]

So what? They have four shots. I've seen the math before, and you've seen the math before, and I can tell you that assault cannons are strictly better than lascannons as anti-tank weapons.

The short range hurts. No first turn tank kills. Your opponent's Razorbacks with Las/Plas are shooting your Razorbacks out of your DZ from their own DZ and there's not a lot you can do about it since it's first turn and you can't pop smoke. That being said, you're doing it wrong it the first place because no-one takes single-lascannons for anti-tank anyway. That's why Las/Plas Razorbacks exist.

The problem with Math-Hammer, is that it doesn't take into account how the game works.

[Renegade Paladin]

Stormravens, Talon Dreadnoughts, Death Company, Baal Predators, all of which I like and routinely take. However, I refuse to be bound by the idea that my troops choices must be assault marines.

He didn't have any of those either. The only unique things were Dante and Sanguinary Guard, and he only had one squad of the latter, thus completely wasting Dante. He plays Blood Angels because he managed to get some old Space Hulk minis or something that are supposed to be really rare and valuable for cheap at Gen Con, hence the Terminators.

[Erloas]

That being said, you're doing it wrong it the first place because no-one takes single-lascannons for anti-tank anyway. That's why Las/Plas Razorbacks exist.

The problem with Math-Hammer, is that it doesn't take into account how the game works.

The shorter range potentially an issue, but I don't tend to see a whole lot of vehicles lost on the first turn because whomever doesn't go first deploys in cover most of the time anyway.
But the "no one takes just one lascannon" justification is disingenuous at best because no one is going to take just one assault cannon either, no one takes just one of any weapon for such a role.
That said, the difference is 1/9, so its not going to be overly apparent unless you are really looking for it and shooting at AV13 a lot. Against AV12 the AC will be a little better at penning but a little lower overall.
What might be true is that you have better choices to take a lascannon over an assault cannon but that doesn't make the lascannon more effective, just easier to field, which is admittedly very important.

As for not taking into account how the game is played, you've also completely ignored the fact that the assault cannon is much more useful in roles outside of tank hunting then the lascannon is.

[Tarinaky]

I think your mathhammer needs to be adjusted to take into account that Stunned, Shaken and immobilised results suck (in most cases) :p

Spoiler

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Assuming AV13

We're interested in destructions and weapon destroyed results so:

A glancing hit has a 1/6 chance of weapon destroyed.
A penetrating hit has a 1/2 chance of destruction of either the tank or the weapon.

However 2 immobilised results can stage up to weapon destroyed so we'll keep that in mind later...

Lascannon has 2/3 chance to hit followed by:
1/3 chance to penetrate (with a further 1/2 chance of a kill)
1/6 chance to glance (with a further 1/6 chance of a kill)

Total? 19.4%

Assault Cannon will score an average of 8/3 hits or...
a 22.2% chance of scoring 1 hit;
a 44.4% chance of scoring 2 hits;
a 29.6% chance of scoring 3 hits.


A single hit has a 1/36 chance of scoring a weapon destroyed result (2.7%)

Two hits have a 8.2% chance of scoring either at least 1 weapon destroyed or two immobilised results (which will stage-up)

Three hits have a 8.8% chance of inflicting at least 1 weapon destroyed or at least 2 immobilised results.

Multiplying out that gives 0.6% + 3.6% + 2.6%

Or 6.8%

A lascannon out performs an assault cannon massively (19.4% vs 6.8%) at the task of actually killing AV13 tanks rather than just stunning them.

As the AV drops the performance of the assault cannon will pick up sharply however and for an anti-infantry weapon it's certainly not bad in a pinch...

But I would never consider the assault cannon better than a lascannon at the lascannon's job.

[Winterwind]

Tarinaky, you seem to be forgetting that the Assault Cannon has Rending, so is perfectly capable of scoring Penetrating hits as well (and indeed, 2/3 of its hits will be Penetrating against AV13).
EDIT: Also, it has Heavy 4, not 3. Could it be you mixed up the Assault Cannon with the Auto Cannon?

[Tarinaky]

Tarinaky, you seem to be forgetting that the Assault Cannon has Rending, so is perfectly capable of scoring Penetrating hits as well (and indeed, 2/3 of its hits will be Penetrating against AV13).
EDIT: Also, it has Heavy 4, not 3. Could it be you mixed up the Assault Cannon with the Auto Cannon?

Err... Rending allows you to score a glancing hit on a 6... Unless the rules changed while I wasn't looking.

Also, 'whoops' about the number of attacks (I've not had chance to play for a few months) but I think you get the idea anyway.

[FireJustice]

if I still remember correctly
Rending now gives you +D3 to your str to see if you penetrate.

[Tarinaky]

Well, that changes things then.

[Erloas]

Err... Rending allows you to score a glancing hit on a 6... Unless the rules changed while I wasn't looking.

Also, 'whoops' about the number of attacks (I've not had chance to play for a few months) but I think you get the idea anyway.

Rending adds an additional D3 to your damage roll, so with str6 when you roll a 6 you are at 12 and rend, with 1/3 glancing AV13 and 2/3 penetrating AV13.
So out the 8/3 that hit, 1/6 rend, so 4/9 of your shots rend, 1/3 of those glance and 2/3 penetrate.

So a total of 4/27 glancing, and 8/27 penetrating, or 14.8% and 29.6% respectively.
Compared to 1/9 glancing and 2/9 penetrating, or 11.1% and 22.2% respectively.
And of course a glance is a glance and a pen is a pen no matter which weapon it comes from.

Also:
Against AV12 all AC shots penetrate, so 8/3*1/6 = 4/9 or 44.4%.
Compared to Lascannon at 2/3*1/6 glance = 1/9 11.1% and 2/3*1/2 pen = 1/3 or 33%.
Against AV11 AC is 8/3 hit, 1/6 glance and 1/6 pen, so 4/9 (44.4%) chance of glance and 4/9 (44.4%) chance of pen.
Lascannon is 2/3 hit, 1/6 glance, 2/3 pen, so 1/9 glance (11.1%) and 4/9 (44.4%) pen.
Against AV10 AC is 8/3 hit, 1/6 glance and 1/3 pen, so 4/9 (44.4%) chance of glance and 8/9 (88.8%) chance of pen.
Lascannon is 2/3 hit, 1/6 glance, 5/6 pen, so 1/9 glance (11.1%) and 5/9 (55.5%) pen.
And to finish out, AV14 8/3 hit, 1/6 rend, 1/3 glance and 1/3 pen, so 8/3*1/6*1/3 so 4/27 or 14.8% chance to pen and 14.8% chance to glance.
Lascannon is 2/3 hit, 1/6 glance, 1/6 pen = 1/9 or 11.1% chance to glance and 11.1% chance to pen.

So its a clean sweep, the AC is better at killing vehicles then the lascannon when range is not a deciding factor, and you don't have other special abilities coming into play (such as the wave serpent which treats anything over str8 and 8 and you also never get to roll more then 1 die against it, making the AC much worse)

[Tychris1]

NYAAAAAAAAANGH

To much mathammer! My brain is exploding over and over again.

[North]

Hey going to *hopefully* be playing in a 200 pt kill team match up on sunday.

What would you suggest for list?

Right now im sorta thinking 9 grey knights with psybolt ammo. str 5 stormbolter ftw?

Rules for building kill team and restriction

Spoiler

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Force organization Chart:
0-1 Elite
0-2 Troops
0-1 Fast Attack
All units must meet unit size minimums and not exceed maximum upgrades
You may only take units that fit into the above organization slots.


Restrictions:
• No models with an armour value (AV)
Ex. Rhino, devilfish, dreadnaught (any version), chimera, landspeeder, etc
• No unique/named models/characters
Ex. Marbo, Doom of Malan’tai, Telion, Snikrot etc
• No models with monstrous creature status
Ex. Refer to Tyranid book, and sorry to the Tyranid players out there
• No invulnerable save better than 4+
• No models with a 2+ save
• No allies
• No Forgeworld rules

Codex Specific Adjustments:
• Black Templars:
• none
• Blood Angels:
• No death company
• Chaos Daemons:
• Still deploy by Deamonic Assault, however, once each unit arrives on the table the models then act in accordance with the Kill Team rules
• Chaos Space Marines:
• Chaos Spawn takes up a fast attack slot in the force organization chart
• No Summoned Greater and/or Lesser Deamons, you want them take Chaos Daemons
• Icons only effect the model carrying the icon, however models with marks like noise marines, thousand sons, berserkers, plague marines each have their own mark so each is effected by the mark
• Grey Knights:
• Personal Teleporters reduced to a 15 inch max move.
• Role a D6 at the start of each game turn, that is the number of Psychic attacks that can be used that turn.
• Dark Angels:
• none
• Dark Eldar:
• No Power From Pain (ie No Pain Tokens)
o far too complicated to keep track of on a model by model basis.
• Eldar:
• Warlock/Exarch powers/abilities only effect themselves due to Kill Team Every Man For
Himself rule
• ShadowSeer Veil of Tears only effect themselves due to Kill Team Every Man For Himself rule
• Imperial Guard:
• Orders:
Only can be given by the junior officer model of a platoon command squad
vox casters only work for the model carrying it, so as the officer doesn’t carry it, there is no point to it
• When rolling for Desperados for any Penal Legion squad, roll for the unit as a whole as normal, ie before they become individual units on the table
• No Psyker Battle Squad(s)
• Heavy Weapon teams act as 1 model whether they are represented on the table by 1 or 2 separate bases as they are treated as a 2 wound model in the codex
• Combined Squad rule does not apply.
• Storm Troopers: Special Operations rule must be the same for each member of the squad and chosen before deployment. At deployment they are now each considered their own unit.


• Necrons:
• Replace We’ll Be Back with Feel No Pain universal special rule.
• Warrior Unit minimum squad size is reduced to 5
• Phase Out removed
• Orks:
• none
• Codex Space Marines:
• none
• Space Wolves:
• Ferisian wolves bought as wargear, remain attached to the models and maintain unit coherency
• Tau Empire:
• Remove 1+ restriction on Fire Warriors
• Drones bought as wargear, remain attached to the models and must maintain unit coherency; in the case of units with drone upgrades the drones are attached to the team leader; the drone controller must be nominated before deployment; drones do not cause panic checks to their controllers
• Pathfinders do not require a devilfish to be taken
• All Kroot in Kroot units have Infiltrate even if a Krootox Rider(s) are present, however the
Krootox Rider(s) do not have Infiltrate
• Tyranids:
• No instinctive behavior
• Witch Hunters:
• All sisters of battle are considered independent characters for Acts of Faith tests
• If you desire to use Arco-Flagellants you must still take a priest as part of the unit even though a Priest is normally considered an HQ selection. Also this priest must be taken from the Witch Hunters Codex.
• Inquisitorial Retinues only provide stat modifiers to the Inquisitor & non of the other benefits



Special Rules:
Every Man For Himself: All models operate as individual units, even if chosen as part of a squad. When models shoot or fight in combat they may split up their shots/attacks amongst any eligible targets.

Specialist Troopers: Each player is allowed to pick up to 3 different models to benefit from one universal special rule in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. This is done as part of your army list and should be marked on the list. No 2 or more models per kill team may take the same universal special rule. No model may be given more than 1 universal special rule; pre-existing universal special rules are not counted in these allotments.
Disallowed USRs: Swarms (unless the model has it already)
Note: It is strongly encouraged to have USRs well represented, for ease of play and understanding by opponents.

Missions etc

Spoiler

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Table Setup & Deployment:
• 4’x4’ table
• Divide table in quarters
• No models may be deployed within 9” of the centre of the table
• No models may be left in reserve
• Models may still use the Infiltrate universal special rule (if they have the rule) but they may not outflank as this involves being placed in reserve
• Roll to choose quarter, winner chooses
• Winner deploys all their kill team
• Other player then deploys in the opposing quarter, same restrictions


First Turn:
• Second player may seize the initiative, as per the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.


Scoring Models:
• All models are considered scoring, unless their own Codex entry states they cannot be scoring.
• Models are not considered scoring if they have Gone to Ground


Scoring Breakdown (per round):
Victory Points brake down:
15 points for a massacre
11 points for a solid victory
8 points for a draw
4 points for solid loss
1 point for being massacred


Sportsmanship brake down:
5 Great Game, this is what gaming is all about
3 Good game, I would play this person again
1 shake hands don't look back



Standard Kill Team Mission:

Game Length:
• Time and victory conditions


Objectives:
• Kill your opponent’s Army


Victory Conditions:
• The battle continues until one side has been reduced to half its starting models or less. The player must then take a leadership test at the start of each of their turns; if they fail the test then they lose. Else the battle continues, but the player must take tests on all subsequent turns, with a -1 modifier per test passed. (ie 2nd turn -1, 3rd -2, 4th -3, etc) The leadership test is always done using the highest leadership value of any of the player’s surviving models.


• Note:
1. that both players may have to take leadership tests at the start of their turns, and the first one to fail loses.
2. Fearless, stubborn and/or any other rule that modifies leadership tests are ignored for purposes of these tests

Victory Points Definitions:
Massacre: your opponent has fled the table or has no models left, while you still have more than half your models remaining on the table
Solid Victory: your opponent has fled the table or has no models left, and you have half or
less of your models remaining on the table
Draw: both forces have half or less of their models remaining on the table ie time runs out

King of the Hill

Game Length:
• Random Game Length, between 7 and 9 game turns. At the end of game turn 7, a player must roll a die. On a 1-2 the game ends, on a 3-6 game turn 8 is played. If the game continues then, at the end of game turn 8, the other player must roll a die. On a 1-3 the game ends, on a 4-6 game turn
9 is played. After game turn 9 the game is over period.


Objectives:
• 1 objective counter
• Deploy the 1 object at the exact centre of the table
• Objectives are stationary


Victory Conditions:
• Side with the most number of models in base contact with the objective at the end of the game wins

Victory Points Definitions:
Massacre: you have 1 or more models in base contact with the objective and your opponent has none
Solid Victory: you have more models in base contact with the objective than your
opponent does
Draw: both sides have the same number of models in base contact with the objective or neither side has any models in base contact with the objective

Assassination:

Game Length:
• Random Game Length, between 7 and 9 game turns. At the end of game turn 7, a player must roll a die. On a 1-2 the game ends, on a 3-6 game turn 8 is played. If the game continues then, at the end of game turn 8, the other player must roll a die. On a 1-3 the game ends, on a 4-6 game turn
9 is played. After game turn 9 the game is over period.
• Secondary Objective met


Objectives:
• Each side must nominate 1 model as their Armies “Leader”.


Victory Conditions:
• Primary Objective: To meet this objective you must Kill your opponent’s “Leader” before the
Secondary Objective is completed
• Secondary Objective: Standard Kill Team Mission (refer to its mission page entry)


Victory Points Definitions:
Massacre: you completed the Primary Objective while your opponent completed no
Objectives
Solid Victory: you completed the Secondary Objective before the Primary Objective
Draw: neither Primary nor Secondary Objectives have been met by either side or both sides complete the Primary Objective and neither side complete the Secondary Objective
Note: Although your army has a “Leader”, there is always another member waiting to take his place. This means that even if your army loses their “Leader” but manages to Assassinate the opposing army’s Leader they can still claim a Massacre if they meet the Secondary Objective. If however the game runs out and both sides have lost their “Leaders” but neither side accomplished the Secondary Objective then it is considered a draw.

Seize Ground:

Game Length:
• Random Game Length, between 7 and 9 game turns. At the end of game turn 7, a player must roll a die. On a 1-2 the game ends, on a 3-6 game turn 8 is played. If the game continues then, at the end of game turn 8, the other player must roll a die. On a 1-3 the game ends, on a 4-6 game turn
9 is played. After game turn 9 the game is over period.
• Secondary Objective met


Primary Objective:
• D3+2 objective counters
• Before choosing deployment zone, players take turns deploying objectives until all are deployed
• Objectives must be 9” apart and away from table edges, and not in impassable terrain
• Objectives are stationary
• Controlled Objectives: 1 or more models of only 1 side must be in base contact with the objective
• Contested Objectives: 1 or more models from both sides are in base to base contact with the objective

Victory Conditions:
• Primary Objective: most controlled objective counters
• Secondary Objective: Standard Kill Team Mission (refer to its mission page entry)


Victory Points Definitions:
Massacre: you met the Primary Objective
Solid Victory: you completed the Secondary Objective while not controlling any objectives
Draw: neither Primary nor Secondary Objectives have been met by either side

The Hornburg Culvert:

Game Length:
• Time and victory conditions
• Game ends when either side completes the Primary Objective


Deployment Zone:
• Instead of standard division of table into Quarters, Armies must be deployed outside of 9” of the table centre line, as per Pitched Battle in the Warhammer 40k rulebook

Primary Objective:
• 2 objective counters (1 per side, called the “Bomb”)
• Deploy objectives after armies are deployed, 1 in each deployment zone
• Control of Objectives: any model may control their side's objective but they cannot control the opposing side's objective, to do so the model must be in base ontact with the objective
• Bomb Movement: In order for the "Bomb" to move, you must have a model in base contact with it at the start of the phase. The “Bomb” may move a maximum of 6" in the movement phase, subject to difficult terrain, may run, may not move in the assault phase
• If controlling model flees for any reason the “Bomb” is left behind


Victory Conditions:
• Primary Objective: You must take your "Bomb" (objective) from your deployment zone to the back edge of your opponent's deployment zone.
• Secondary Objective: Standard Kill Team Mission (refer to its mission page entry)
• Tertiary Objective: write on your score sheet the origin of the name of this mission for a bonus point to your Overall score

Victory Points Definitions:
Massacre: you completed the Primary Objective
Solid Victory: you completed the Secondary Objective before the Primary Objective
Draw: neither Primary nor Secondary Objectives have been met by either side

[Tychris1]

200 pts? That's a ridiculusly small army. Albeit I have no idea how to run grey knights, I have to ask how much do terminators cost? They seem like a good choice?

[Erloas]

At least the majority of the rules for kill teams was in the spoilers. You aren't allowed anything with a 2+ save, so no terminators. 200 points isn't bad because there is no HQ and no minimum unit requirements, it doesn't play like a normal game.

[Timberwolf]

You may want to take a Daemonhammer just in case there's someone who'd bring a Talon Furioso and a squad of scouts or a Tervigon or something.

[Arcanoi]

Grey Knights are bad at low points values, and Kill Team is rather agonizing for them.

Strike Squad x 9 - 200 pts
- Psybolt Ammo

is probably the best option they could put out, but some sort of variation on

Henchman Squad - 200 pts
- 2x Arco-Flaggellants
- 2x Crusaders
- 7x Death Cult Assassin
- 1x Jokaero

should get an honorable mention.

Henchman Squad - 80 pts
- 12x Warrior Acolyte
-- 10x Stormbolters
-- 2x Bolters

Strike Squad x 5 - 120 pts
- Psybolt Ammo

is also possible, and puts a bunch of bodies down.

[Tychris1]

Tervigon are monstrous creatures so you can't bring them Timberwolf. Although it would be amazing to have one that gives out feel no pain to squads so that you don't have to use the 3 extra USR's on feel no pain.

[gabado]

were do you find the rules for kill team? i've heard a lot about it and it seems interesting

nevermind i found them

[Cheesegear]

The shorter range potentially an issue

Cover works both ways.
Here's what happens;

On my first turn, I shoot you with Lascannons. Fair enough. Make your cover saves.
On your turn, you have to drive up (Leaving cover) because you don't have the range to do anything else. You can pop smoke if you like as you drive forward. But you're once again losing your shooting phase. Or, you can let me pepper you with Lascannons. Whatever.
On my second turn, I drive forwards and unload plasma and melta spam on all your vehicles.

but I don't tend to see a whole lot of vehicles lost on the first turn.

That's a joke, right?

But the "no one takes just one lascannon" justification is disingenuous at best because no one is going to take just one assault cannon either, no one takes just one of any weapon for such a role.
[...]
you've also completely ignored the fact that the assault cannon is much more useful in roles outside of tank hunting then the lascannon is.

What? I'm agreeing with you. Lascannons suck. That's why people don't take them. It's easy comparing a fairly decent weapon against a weapon that sucks. Everyone knows Lascannons are bad. That's why Guard take 10 of them.

However, in this instance, the Assault Cannons are going on a Razorback, this is where the discussion started. For the same points, you can have Las/Plas. Which is better. Or Twin-Linked Heavy Flamers for free (we're talking Blood Angels, I believe).

I am not saying that Lascannons are good. I am saying that Assault Cannons are bad for the points that they cost. When dealing with Infantry, rather than tanks, the Infantry are more likely to be in cover than vehicles are due to being smaller. Las/Plas ignores FNP and 2 and 3+ armour. Assault Cannons only do that when they roll a '6'.

[Penguinizer]

Grey Knights are bad at low points values, and Kill Team is rather agonizing for them.

Weird, from my experience at a doubles tournament I found that 500 points of GK and 500 points of SW was basically unbeatable.

They had long fang and minimum troops on the SW and as many psycannons as possible on the GK. You couldn't get close to them and if you did they were still good in melee.

[Arcanoi]

Weird, from my experience at a doubles tournament I found that 500 points of GK and 500 points of SW was basically unbeatable.

They had long fang and minimum troops on the SW and as many psycannons as possible on the GK. You couldn't get close to them and if you did they were still good in melee.

Long Fangs complement Grey Knights extremely well; the Grey Knights' Devastator equivalent sucks because it doesn't give them anything their troops don't do. Long Fangs, on the other hand, give them reliable long-range firepower that's resistant to AT, and Grey Hunters give them much needed bodies.

Considering Grey Knight HQs are either 200+ points or quite bad, and their cheapest troops are 100 points each, you essentially have room for one more unit. So that's three units, and no more than 20 bodies. Assuming you want wargear, probably 15 bodies. If you want actual long range firepower, then you're looking at 130 points of Dreadnought, which means you're essentially out of points. If you're lucky, you can fit two Psycannons into the entire list.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hey going to *hopefully* be playing in a 200 pt kill team match up on sunday.

What would you suggest for list?

Right now im sorta thinking 9 grey knights with psybolt ammo. str 5 stormbolter ftw?

Rules for building kill team and restriction

Spoiler

Show

Force organization Chart:
0-1 Elite
0-2 Troops
0-1 Fast Attack
All units must meet unit size minimums and not exceed maximum upgrades
You may only take units that fit into the above organization slots.


Restrictions:
• No models with an armour value (AV)
Ex. Rhino, devilfish, dreadnaught (any version), chimera, landspeeder, etc
• No unique/named models/characters
Ex. Marbo, Doom of Malan’tai, Telion, Snikrot etc
• No models with monstrous creature status
Ex. Refer to Tyranid book, and sorry to the Tyranid players out there
• No invulnerable save better than 4+
• No models with a 2+ save
• No allies
• No Forgeworld rules

Codex Specific Adjustments:
• Black Templars:
• none
• Blood Angels:
• No death company
• Chaos Daemons:
• Still deploy by Deamonic Assault, however, once each unit arrives on the table the models then act in accordance with the Kill Team rules
• Chaos Space Marines:
• Chaos Spawn takes up a fast attack slot in the force organization chart
• No Summoned Greater and/or Lesser Deamons, you want them take Chaos Daemons
• Icons only effect the model carrying the icon, however models with marks like noise marines, thousand sons, berserkers, plague marines each have their own mark so each is effected by the mark
• Grey Knights:
• Personal Teleporters reduced to a 15 inch max move.
• Role a D6 at the start of each game turn, that is the number of Psychic attacks that can be used that turn.
• Dark Angels:
• none
• Dark Eldar:
• No Power From Pain (ie No Pain Tokens)
o far too complicated to keep track of on a model by model basis.
• Eldar:
• Warlock/Exarch powers/abilities only effect themselves due to Kill Team Every Man For
Himself rule
• ShadowSeer Veil of Tears only effect themselves due to Kill Team Every Man For Himself rule
• Imperial Guard:
• Orders:
Only can be given by the junior officer model of a platoon command squad
vox casters only work for the model carrying it, so as the officer doesn’t carry it, there is no point to it
• When rolling for Desperados for any Penal Legion squad, roll for the unit as a whole as normal, ie before they become individual units on the table
• No Psyker Battle Squad(s)
• Heavy Weapon teams act as 1 model whether they are represented on the table by 1 or 2 separate bases as they are treated as a 2 wound model in the codex
• Combined Squad rule does not apply.
• Storm Troopers: Special Operations rule must be the same for each member of the squad and chosen before deployment. At deployment they are now each considered their own unit.


• Necrons:
• Replace We’ll Be Back with Feel No Pain universal special rule.
• Warrior Unit minimum squad size is reduced to 5
• Phase Out removed
• Orks:
• none
• Codex Space Marines:
• none
• Space Wolves:
• Ferisian wolves bought as wargear, remain attached to the models and maintain unit coherency
• Tau Empire:
• Remove 1+ restriction on Fire Warriors
• Drones bought as wargear, remain attached to the models and must maintain unit coherency; in the case of units with drone upgrades the drones are attached to the team leader; the drone controller must be nominated before deployment; drones do not cause panic checks to their controllers
• Pathfinders do not require a devilfish to be taken
• All Kroot in Kroot units have Infiltrate even if a Krootox Rider(s) are present, however the
Krootox Rider(s) do not have Infiltrate
• Tyranids:
• No instinctive behavior
• Witch Hunters:
• All sisters of battle are considered independent characters for Acts of Faith tests
• If you desire to use Arco-Flagellants you must still take a priest as part of the unit even though a Priest is normally considered an HQ selection. Also this priest must be taken from the Witch Hunters Codex.
• Inquisitorial Retinues only provide stat modifiers to the Inquisitor & non of the other benefits



Special Rules:
Every Man For Himself: All models operate as individual units, even if chosen as part of a squad. When models shoot or fight in combat they may split up their shots/attacks amongst any eligible targets.

Specialist Troopers: Each player is allowed to pick up to 3 different models to benefit from one universal special rule in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. This is done as part of your army list and should be marked on the list. No 2 or more models per kill team may take the same universal special rule. No model may be given more than 1 universal special rule; pre-existing universal special rules are not counted in these allotments.
Disallowed USRs: Swarms (unless the model has it already)
Note: It is strongly encouraged to have USRs well represented, for ease of play and understanding by opponents.

Missions etc

Spoiler

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Table Setup & Deployment:
• 4’x4’ table
• Divide table in quarters
• No models may be deployed within 9” of the centre of the table
• No models may be left in reserve
• Models may still use the Infiltrate universal special rule (if they have the rule) but they may not outflank as this involves being placed in reserve
• Roll to choose quarter, winner chooses
• Winner deploys all their kill team
• Other player then deploys in the opposing quarter, same restrictions


First Turn:
• Second player may seize the initiative, as per the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.


Scoring Models:
• All models are considered scoring, unless their own Codex entry states they cannot be scoring.
• Models are not considered scoring if they have Gone to Ground


Scoring Breakdown (per round):
Victory Points brake down:
15 points for a massacre
11 points for a solid victory
8 points for a draw
4 points for solid loss
1 point for being massacred


Sportsmanship brake down:
5 Great Game, this is what gaming is all about
3 Good game, I would play this person again
1 shake hands don't look back



Standard Kill Team Mission:

Game Length:
• Time and victory conditions


Objectives:
• Kill your opponent’s Army


Victory Conditions:
• The battle continues until one side has been reduced to half its starting models or less. The player must then take a leadership test at the start of each of their turns; if they fail the test then they lose. Else the battle continues, but the player must take tests on all subsequent turns, with a -1 modifier per test passed. (ie 2nd turn -1, 3rd -2, 4th -3, etc) The leadership test is always done using the highest leadership value of any of the player’s surviving models.


• Note:
1. that both players may have to take leadership tests at the start of their turns, and the first one to fail loses.
2. Fearless, stubborn and/or any other rule that modifies leadership tests are ignored for purposes of these tests

Victory Points Definitions:
Massacre: your opponent has fled the table or has no models left, while you still have more than half your models remaining on the table
Solid Victory: your opponent has fled the table or has no models left, and you have half or
less of your models remaining on the table
Draw: both forces have half or less of their models remaining on the table ie time runs out

King of the Hill

Game Length:
• Random Game Length, between 7 and 9 game turns. At the end of game turn 7, a player must roll a die. On a 1-2 the game ends, on a 3-6 game turn 8 is played. If the game continues then, at the end of game turn 8, the other player must roll a die. On a 1-3 the game ends, on a 4-6 game turn
9 is played. After game turn 9 the game is over period.


Objectives:
• 1 objective counter
• Deploy the 1 object at the exact centre of the table
• Objectives are stationary


Victory Conditions:
• Side with the most number of models in base contact with the objective at the end of the game wins

Victory Points Definitions:
Massacre: you have 1 or more models in base contact with the objective and your opponent has none
Solid Victory: you have more models in base contact with the objective than your
opponent does
Draw: both sides have the same number of models in base contact with the objective or neither side has any models in base contact with the objective

Assassination:

Game Length:
• Random Game Length, between 7 and 9 game turns. At the end of game turn 7, a player must roll a die. On a 1-2 the game ends, on a 3-6 game turn 8 is played. If the game continues then, at the end of game turn 8, the other player must roll a die. On a 1-3 the game ends, on a 4-6 game turn
9 is played. After game turn 9 the game is over period.
• Secondary Objective met


Objectives:
• Each side must nominate 1 model as their Armies “Leader”.


Victory Conditions:
• Primary Objective: To meet this objective you must Kill your opponent’s “Leader” before the
Secondary Objective is completed
• Secondary Objective: Standard Kill Team Mission (refer to its mission page entry)


Victory Points Definitions:
Massacre: you completed the Primary Objective while your opponent completed no
Objectives
Solid Victory: you completed the Secondary Objective before the Primary Objective
Draw: neither Primary nor Secondary Objectives have been met by either side or both sides complete the Primary Objective and neither side complete the Secondary Objective
Note: Although your army has a “Leader”, there is always another member waiting to take his place. This means that even if your army loses their “Leader” but manages to Assassinate the opposing army’s Leader they can still claim a Massacre if they meet the Secondary Objective. If however the game runs out and both sides have lost their “Leaders” but neither side accomplished the Secondary Objective then it is considered a draw.

Seize Ground:

Game Length:
• Random Game Length, between 7 and 9 game turns. At the end of game turn 7, a player must roll a die. On a 1-2 the game ends, on a 3-6 game turn 8 is played. If the game continues then, at the end of game turn 8, the other player must roll a die. On a 1-3 the game ends, on a 4-6 game turn
9 is played. After game turn 9 the game is over period.
• Secondary Objective met


Primary Objective:
• D3+2 objective counters
• Before choosing deployment zone, players take turns deploying objectives until all are deployed
• Objectives must be 9” apart and away from table edges, and not in impassable terrain
• Objectives are stationary
• Controlled Objectives: 1 or more models of only 1 side must be in base contact with the objective
• Contested Objectives: 1 or more models from both sides are in base to base contact with the objective

Victory Conditions:
• Primary Objective: most controlled objective counters
• Secondary Objective: Standard Kill Team Mission (refer to its mission page entry)


Victory Points Definitions:
Massacre: you met the Primary Objective
Solid Victory: you completed the Secondary Objective while not controlling any objectives
Draw: neither Primary nor Secondary Objectives have been met by either side

The Hornburg Culvert:

Game Length:
• Time and victory conditions
• Game ends when either side completes the Primary Objective


Deployment Zone:
• Instead of standard division of table into Quarters, Armies must be deployed outside of 9” of the table centre line, as per Pitched Battle in the Warhammer 40k rulebook

Primary Objective:
• 2 objective counters (1 per side, called the “Bomb”)
• Deploy objectives after armies are deployed, 1 in each deployment zone
• Control of Objectives: any model may control their side's objective but they cannot control the opposing side's objective, to do so the model must be in base ontact with the objective
• Bomb Movement: In order for the "Bomb" to move, you must have a model in base contact with it at the start of the phase. The “Bomb” may move a maximum of 6" in the movement phase, subject to difficult terrain, may run, may not move in the assault phase
• If controlling model flees for any reason the “Bomb” is left behind


Victory Conditions:
• Primary Objective: You must take your "Bomb" (objective) from your deployment zone to the back edge of your opponent's deployment zone.
• Secondary Objective: Standard Kill Team Mission (refer to its mission page entry)
• Tertiary Objective: write on your score sheet the origin of the name of this mission for a bonus point to your Overall score

Victory Points Definitions:
Massacre: you completed the Primary Objective
Solid Victory: you completed the Secondary Objective before the Primary Objective
Draw: neither Primary nor Secondary Objectives have been met by either side

That is a ridiculously modified form of Kill Team. For my own codex, after the last (which was the first) time I played Kill Team, I concluded that Guardsmen didn't work, and that a much better kill team than the one I took (veterans, Harker, two flamers, meltagun, Chimera) I decided that should I ever play it again, I'd simply take a full strength squad of Storm Troopers with power weapon, plasma, and meltagun, which neatly comes to 200 points and can lay waste to power armor. With these modifications I'd have to rethink that, though I still think it would be good and perhaps better, since no one could do what one of my opponents did and simply field five Terminators.

[Arcanoi]

Guardsmen suffer in Kill Team because they can't ablate wounds from their valuable models, which is the biggest strength of Guardsmen.