Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Shadow Lord]

Anything you guys recommend to get first [or, rather, the first few] for a Tyranid army?

[Tychris1]

2-3 battle forces and probably a Monstrous Creature/Zoanthrope or Venomthrope/Hive Guards.

[Ricky S]

I am expanding my blood angels army and I am torn between these two options. I can take either

-2 las/plas razorbacks
-2 units of 5 assault marines with powerfist and meltagun

Or

-10 assault marines, powerfist and 2 meltaguns
-Storm raven

Any suggestions?

[crazedloon]

-2 las/plas razorbacks
-2 units of 5 assault marines with powerfist and meltagun

this is the "competitive" option

-10 assault marines, powerfist and 2 meltaguns
-Storm raven

this is the fun option

The one you choose depends on what you want out of your army

[Cheesegear]

Anything you guys recommend to get first [or, rather, the first few] for a Tyranid army?

Ah, Tyranids. One of my favourite armies. If in flavour, but not so much execution.

Depends on the style of army you want to play, really. Credit where credit is due, each of the Tyranids' Troops choices pretty much dictates what kind of army you're going to play. Except Rippers. They don't count cause they don't Score.

One of 'the best' armies that I've seen looks like;
Termagants and Tervigons (make out of Carnifex, convert). Admittedly, painting wave after wave after wave of Termagants makes me sigh in empathy (seriously, you need roughly 100 Termagants, and about half of them wont even count for points!), and then you need to be a pretty good hand at converting to get between 2-5 Tervigons. This style of army is fairly competitive, but intensely hobby-intensive. Has more models than Infantry Guard. And that just terrifies my painting hand.

For the 'first' Tyranid army, you're looking at ~500-750 points;
Swarmlord (Hive Tyrant) + ~20 Hormagaunts + Hive Guard/Zoanthropes.
This is kind of a pub stomp list. You'll do incredibly well in low point games because Swarmlord is nigh-unkillable, but, it doesn't quite scale very well in that you'll need more than just Hormagaunts to take the heat of Swarmlord when your enemy brings more Krak Missiles to bear.

My personal favourite though is a mix of Termagants and Warrior Genus models (and Zoanthropes). It's not the competitive army, but it's solid and can deal with pretty much anything that isn't MSU Mech.

Genestealers.

Unfortuntely, the name of the game for Tyranids is 'Spam'. Like, I'm not even kidding.

ION;
Had my first game with my Warrior Kabal (as opposed to my Wych Cult), it's rather good. Sliscus killed Mephiston.

[One Step Two]

Had my first game with my Warrior Kabal (as opposed to my Wych Cult), it's rather good. Sliscus killed Mephiston.

We can has battle report?



Anywho, decided to de-lurk for a while to ask some advice. I've come to the state where I am happy with my Eldar army as is, and have enough auxilary units to give variation to battles. So it's time for a new army.

I'm more or less in a fairly casual meta around my FLGS, so I don't have the need to drop into a truly competative mech-heavy list to start, but I like to keep up for flavour. I do remember reading earlier this thread, or late last thread, that foot-slogging Black Templars are apparently none too shabby?

I'll probably dig up through my boxes for the codex and toss together an army list a little later, I have some 'nilla marines for proxy if need be for play-testing.

As an aside, if I do decide on tournament play, how big a hit to comp score is it to take 2-3 LRC's full of full 16 man squads before anything else?

[Cheesegear]

We can has battle report?

Yeah, I'm planning to do one.

I do remember reading earlier this thread, or late last thread, that foot-slogging Black Templars are apparently none too shabby?

That still remains true.

As an aside, if I do decide on tournament play, how big a hit to comp score is it to take 2-3 LRC's full of full 16 man squads before anything else?

It's not as big of a Grayson move as you'd think. Since Melta and Lance weapons are everywhere (except Orks). The other issue is that each squad, before attached Independent Characters and Grenades (!!!), and other upgrades, comes to 425 points.

x3 = 1275. No HQs, no upgrades (Meltaguns!). Also, for 1250 points you want more than three units on the board.

Its great against people who aren't prepared for Mech, let alone 3 Land Raiders (if they can't deal with 3+ Leman Russes, they can't deal with 3 Land Raiders). But, as far as a tournament goes, if two of them aren't destroyed - or at least immobilised - on the first turn, there must be some bad dice rolling going on.

[Trixie]

So... after my post-surgery (and continent-level move to another place) I tried to get back into the game, with new GK army, playing in local campaign pitting Xenos/Rebels vs Imperium (take one guess why it had to be divided that way... :P). I so far had 5 games (750-1250 pts, plus 2 Combat Patrols) against Orks led by another returning player.

I wonder, would you guys have anything against posting these games with requests to criticize strategy/rule mistakes/list composition? My GK were highly experimental (each game had different list) but my opponent would like to hear how to make his Orks better (seeing how he, for example, didn't took any Klaws at first until I pointed them out, and anything with 3+ save loved to enter combat with him...). Can I? :P

Also, would you like me to make it brief, or try to throw a little bit of fluff where I feel it would be nice?

[Hootman]

I wonder, would you guys have anything against posting these games with requests to criticize strategy/rule mistakes/list composition? [...] Also, would you like me to make it brief, or try to throw a little bit of fluff where I feel it would be nice?

Wait, you mean it's story time? I LOVE story time! Story time, story time, story time!

>>;;;

Seriously, I say you're more than welcome to post whatever you like. I highly doubt that any of our frequent posters dislike stories or battle reports, or they probably wouldn't hang around here so much.

[crazedloon]

anything with 3+ save loved to enter combat with him...

sounds like he doesn't have enough greenskins in each unit. But that being said battle reports are awesome and plenty of people would be more than happy to help

[FlyingScanian]

Wait, you mean it's story time? I LOVE story time! Story time, story time, story time!

>>;;;

Seriously, I say you're more than welcome to post whatever you like. I highly doubt that any of our frequent posters dislike stories or battle reports, or they probably wouldn't hang around here so much.

Story time? STORY TIME!

Yeah, post away, that is kinda the point of this thread. Heck, I'll even try to come up with some input myself...

[Timberwolf]

I am expanding my blood angels army and I am torn between these two options. I can take either

-2 las/plas razorbacks
-2 units of 5 assault marines with powerfist and meltagun

Or

-10 assault marines, powerfist and 2 meltaguns
-Storm raven

Any suggestions?

The las plas R/B's if you want to be like everyone else. I'm sure it's very competitive, but speaking personally, I never liked Razorbacks myself. Anyway, everyone can sing the glories of the Razorback.

The Gunship if you want a fire magnet that can kill everything and get the assault marines in to battle while still blowing up a big tank on turn 1. This option gives you versatility as well as the option for nuking things on the first turn. Big nasty things like Broadsides and Obilterators or Vindicators or Mephiston or a Tyrannofex or just about anything you like that's AV13 and under with your 72 inch range S8 AP1 missiles.

[Etcetera]

It is I!


The purpose of this post will become apparent later.

[Renegade Paladin]

I just confirmed my suspicion. The Ultramarines player I played in the tournament on Sunday is a cheating bastard. He claimed that demolisher cannons are Ordnance Barrage when used by Marines and showed me the summary page in the back of the codex when I demanded proof. But the main entry doesn't say that. And as meticulous as he is about everything else, I fail to believe he didn't know.

[Cheesegear]

He claimed that demolisher cannons are Ordnance Barrage when used by Marines and showed me the summary page in the back of the codex when I demanded proof.

The FAQ/Errata also says that Demolishers are not Barrage. It's just something you need to know.

[Renegade Paladin]

The FAQ/Errata also says that Demolishers are not Barrage. It's just something you need to know.

I was going to ask to look further into it, but he rushed me through, saying we were short on time. He wasn't wrong about that, but he knew.

I already had this creeping desire to wreck his face when in his presence for an extended period of time anyway (paladin senses tingling? Maybe), and this isn't helping matters.

[Timberwolf]

Wreck his vindicator first ? You're a guard player, you have a metric ton of stuff that is just waiting to have a turn. In the best tradition, if the metal box is proving a sticking poiunt then, well, Lord Carron says it best.

[Renegade Paladin]

Wreck his vindicator first ? You're a guard player, you have a metric ton of stuff that is just waiting to have a turn. In the best tradition, if the metal box is proving a sticking poiunt then, well, Lord Carron says it best.

I wanted the Land Raider first. Got it, too. The Vindicator actually didn't get into play until turn four due to terrain and deployment.

[BoSheck]

Well, movers and shakers, I don't have any tournament batreps as I haven't got to play as much since I started T/Oing (bad form, all that jazz) but I do have the skinny on a casual game I played with Renegade Paladin on Tuesday!

I brought along battle missions and we rolled up a game out of there. We ended up playing the Trench warfare missions, which is basically seize ground/pitched battle with a little twist. Anything with an AV had to be kept in reserve, anything without an AV that started on the board was considered to have a 4+ cover save until it moved. Plus we each got to place some extra terrain in our deployment zones.

I was kind of itching to play the tournament list I'd worked out for my wolves, but I rolled a die to see which of my armies I'd use and ended up with:

Ravenwing

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205 - Sammuel on Speeder
130 - Chaplain on Bike
450 - RWAS #1 (Uriel) - 6 Bikes, Powerfist, Plasma Pistol, Apoc, 2x Plasma Guns, Standard Bearer (Add Tornado)
190 - RWAS #2 (Michael) - 3 Bikes, MM AB, 2x Meltaguns

190 - RWAS #3 - (Raphael) - 3 Bikes, MM AB, 2x Meltaguns

130 - Dreadnought (Metatron) with Plasma Cannon, Heavy Flamer
130 - Dreadnought (Sandalphon) with Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer

75 - Landspeeder Typhoon

Having just played in the monthly tournament two days earlier, he had this list on hand:

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Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Infantry Platoon - 200
-Platoon Command Squad
--Lascannon team
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team
--Power weapon
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team

Hellhound - 130

Devil Dog - 120

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 190
-Heavy bolter sponsons
-Camo netting

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

Basilisk - 155
-Heavy flamer
-Camo netting

So here the batrep:

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Anyway, his mini-blob sets up and I elect to put nothing on the board, unable to start with even my dreads or speeders. Squadrons #2 and #3 outflank, Sammuel Deep strikes. We roll to see if I seize, as the scenario calls for it--no seize.



Turn 1

No movement from the guard Dark Angels have nothing on the board.

Turn 2

Guard rolls for reserve. NOTHING comes in. 8 Dice/ zero 4+ rolls.

Ravenwing reserves go a little better: everything except for the typhoon and RWAS #3 come in. Sammuel comes down midfield, scattering behind a tower tall enough to obscure the Master's landspeeder. Ravenwing Squadron Uriel turbo boosts to the center of the field with their speeder seeking cover behind Sammuel. Both dreadnoughts trundle on side-by-side, running in their shooting phase an impressive 6 and 4 inches. Squadron Michael's outflank brings them roaring onto the board next to the infantry platoon, boltguns blazing. The speeders pepper the platoon command squad with light anti-infantry fire, downing a guardsman.

Squadron Michael throw themselves into the blob, killing a few guardsmen and sweeping the rest up in combat resolution, but are unable to far enough to find cover.

Turn 3: The Imperium Strikes Back.

Reserves go slightly better this time, leaving the basilisk and command chimera stranded off the board. Several tanks roll in, making to catch Sammuel and Speeder Uriel in a pincer maneuver. On the left: a Demolisher rolls right up to squadron Michael, backed up by a chimera full of melta vets and a hellhound; on the right the devil dog moves flat out, with a chimera rolling up behind it--smoke launchers blazing--a Battle Tank parks itself at the rear of the armored column. The tank unloads on the speeders, stunning the Tornado. On the other side of the board, the Demolisher drops a s10 template of death on the no-cover bikers, rolling an impressive amount of 1 for wounds--the captain dies, with their power armor protecting them from the template of the hellhound, and intervening sandbags granting cover from the meltaguns in the chimera, another biker is taken down.

The typhoon and squadron Raphael make their way onto the board--raphael rolling on into the battle tank's rear arc, while the typhoon makes it's way to a corner behind a bunker, enough to claim a cover save. The remains of Michael dart forward, training their melta-weapons on the demolisher's side armor. Both dreadnoughts keep trudging forward with Sammuel edging around cover to keep several items between the Master's speeder and that rapidly advancing devil-dog.

Shooting is a massacre--the last biker out of Michael explodes the Demolisher while the Attack Bike wrecks the chimera the vets were in. The Devil Dog ends up stunned through several assault cannon rounds, and squad Raphael explodes the Leman Russ--their Attack Bike lands a melta-shot into the vet-chimera on that side of the board, stunning it. Cylone launchers arc shots into the side of the Hellhound, depriving the fast vehicle of it's main gun. Squadron Uriel's Plasmaguns reduce the platoon command squad to the commander unit. With no assaults in range, we go on to turn 4.

Turn 4

Command Chimera and Basilisk come in. The devil-dog rolls forward, threatening the Dark Angel speeders--what armor is left and able to also advances, while the vets train their guns on Michael's remaining biker. With no cover and multiple melta-shots piling into him, that battle brother falls. Rapheal's squad suffers a similar fate to the plasma weaponry of the Company Command Squad--in hindsight they should have gone to ground, but I wasn't thinking and just removed the models after to-wound rolls had been made. The basilisk claims a couple of Uriel's bikers as well. The Platoon Commander hunkers down on an objective, firing a spiteful laspistol shot at squadron Uriel and causing a wound--saved barely by the Apothecary.



With the entirety of both armies on the field, the game is well underway. Sammuel and speeder Uriel consolidate into a line with the dreadnoughts, creating multiple cover-granting scenarios from any given angle--this will also force the devil-dog to choose to close with the heavily armed walkers, as well. Uriel moves in on a load of meltavets. The typhoon speeder creeps forward, parking itself firmly in the side armor of the Basilisk. The attack bike of RWAS Michael unloads on the guardsmen who so callously cut down his brother right before him, Raphael's attack biker doing the same. After a quick shooting phase, the basilisk ends up stunned, another chimera of veterans de-meched with heavy casualties in an explosion. Pouring almost all the firepower left in the army into the command chimera sees it....stunned. With the multilaser taken off. The crew inside actually having no way to get out of it and walk around to the side that the bikes are on, it's not such a terrible thing. Sandalphon and Metatron both fire on the hellhound, to no avail. Combat doesn't go so well for AB Michael--as several veterans beat the marines to death with the butts of their rifles. Being so used to playing guard in a marine meta--I remind him to take his victory consolidation, least he forget. :P

Turn 5

With the threat of the game ending this turn, the Guard kick it into high gear in an attempt to salvage a run of poor luck. The vets in the crater near the command chimera throw what they've got at Uriel and the Chaplain who had been with them all game, sort of polishing his Crozius, dies on a failed invulnerable save. The Devil-dog cruises up and lays melta into the Tornado, blowing it's assault cannon off. Guardsmen run toward cover.

Landspeeder tornado turbo boosts away from the Devil-dog chasing it's tail. Krak missiles pummel the Basilisk, reducing it to a crater while Sammuel hovers at a good range away from the veteran squad, pelting them with heavy bolter and assault cannon rounds. Squadron Uriel wrecks the command tank, finally, and bikes across the burning wreckage (no 1s!) to meet them in combat.

The game continues to turn 6.

Turn 6

The last two veteran squads run through cover, attempting to cross a bunker and hunker down on an objective. What little firepower is left in the guard army goes wide--the devil-dog misses the Tornado with it's melta-blast, while the vets by the command squad are reduced to little more than a pulp by the sustained assault cannon fire.

Dreadnought Sandalphon turns around and fires up his assault cannon, sites set on the devil-dog. the heavy weapon manages to do little more than annoy the fast vehicle while terrain keeps him off the charge. Sammuel, Tornado Uriel, and the Typhoon train their guns on the few remaining veteran soldiers, all but wiping the guard contingent out. Metatron stands before the Platoon commander, plasma cannon and flamer both firing at full blast--one missing, the other failing to wound, but where fire failed him, might succeeds.

The game ends here. Dark Angels hold 1 objectives, Guardsmen hold none. It was a brutal match-up and I feel like the only reason I stood a chance was the anomalous turn 2 reserve rolls that let the Ravenwing position themselves on the board to threaten anywhere within a turn.

What'd we learn: The Chaplain is more hit-or-miss than any other part of the army. On a good day he's ripping up tactical marines and grey hunters like nobody's business, but on the average day he's 130 points of two more wounds and a bigger target painted on whoever he joins (usually Uriel, because of the banner and FNP). Plus he causes that unit to lose scout. Not that anybody has ever NOT shot at the plasma-guns. They don't realistically threaten mech, but it has an apothecary and a big shiny banner!

I'm still looking forward to replacing the dreadnoughts with landspeeder Typhoons--though I'm seriously considering investing in a terminator unit, too. Nothing soaks up firepower like forward TDA on turn 1....plus...you know...my upgrade sprue has all kinds of cool terminator bitz. It's just everything in the darn codex is SO EXPENSIVE. Still extremely torn on whether I like having a scoring landspeeder or want to be able to outflank with RWAS Uriel.

[Renegade Paladin]

That actually wasn't quite my list; I think you're working off of one from two or three tournaments ago. Close enough for government work, though.

[BoSheck]

That actually wasn't quite my list; I think you're working off of one from two or three tournaments ago. Close enough for government work, though.

Ah, my apologies good sir. Good Game, at any rate :).

[Penguinizer]

Since my meta is pretty competitive, I've been wondering what I should make of my CSM list. It seems fairly solid as a start. This isn't really meant for random play. It's meant for playing against other optimized lists. I like playing optimized lists tbh.


Here's what I've got so far for 1750:

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HQ:
Chaos Sorcerer, Mark of Slaneesh, Lash of Submission. 125
Chaos Sorcerer, Mark of Slaneesh, Lash of Submission. 125

Elites:
3x Terminators, 1x Powerfist, 3x Combimelta. 115
3x Terminators, 1x Powerfist, 3x Combimelta. 115

Troops:
6x Plaguemarine, 2x Meltagun, Rhino with second Twin-linked Bolter. 199
6x Plaguemarine, 2x Meltagun, Rhino with second Twin-linked Bolter. 199
6x Plaguemarine, 2x Meltagun, Rhino with second Twin-linked Bolter. 199

Heavy Support:
3x Obliterator 225
3x Obliterator 225
3x Obliterator 225

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm looking at resuming the expansion of my army shortly now that my finances are stabilizing again post-summer, and I'm considering a more infantry-heavy approach just to mix things up. To that end:

On Lord Castellan Creed and Colour Sergeant Kell

Now, Creed doesn't need a whole lot of discussion. He's good, any Guard player could tell you that. Four orders a turn with a 24" command radius is awesome; being able to scout/outflank one of anything you want (except Rough Riders) is icing on the cake. The point of contention is poor Jarran Kell.

For 85 points you get the ability for squads to take orders on the officer's leadership (10 in the case of Creed, 9 in all other cases). If he's with Creed he also acts as a bodyguard, but if he's not he doesn't.

That's a lot of points for effectively one and a half special abilities, of which one is directly replicated by a 15 point model and the other is fairly well approximated with vox-casters at 5 points each. However, consider the following:

Kell is more than his special abilities. What he brings to the command squad is a WS4 I4 power weapon (worth a consistent number of points in the Guard codex, but I'll refrain from posting the exact amount owing to overweening copyright paranoia), a power fist (worth more, again undisclosed), a regimental standard, two wounds, and all encased in carapace armor. Subtracting the known cost of the wargear, you're now paying a total of 45 points for taking orders at higher leadership. If you have Creed, you now no longer need a bodyguard (if you're inclined to take one to protect your very expensive order-giving investment), and taking the cost of that out brings you to 30 points for Ld10 orders, WS4 (on someone other than the commander himself) W2, I4, A2 (+1 for two CCWs with the pistol if you're not using his fist), and 4+ armor. Heck, you could fairly call it two bodyguards thanks to the two wounds, which would take it down even more, but I'll refrain from doing so for the purposes of this discussion.

Assuming you're taking him with Creed (keep in mind, you're losing an ability if you don't), what does this get us? In combination, the two of them cause any Guard infantry within 24" to take all of the standard orders plus Creed's special at Ld10. Creed stays alive longer thanks to Sworn Protector in case the squad gets in trouble, and let's not forget the effects on assault - not only is there a Marine-initiative power weapon (or a power fist if you think he'll stay alive long enough) in there, but having WS4 on two models means that the command squad gets harder to hit much more quickly - they only need lose one model to force the enemy to roll against WS4, rather than three. You lose - a lasgun shot. It makes for a very expensive unit (225 points minimum, if you're curious, and if you're smart it'll be more than that to stick them in a Chimera or give them some other protection), but one that does a lot of stuff and has some semblance of a close combat punch.

With that as a preamble, this is the first draft of an experimental (for me, at any rate) hybrid infantry/armor list:

1500 points

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Company Command Squad - 285
-Creed, Kell
-Vox-caster
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 200
-Sergeant Harker
-Two flamers, meltagun
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Infantry Platoon - 290
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Two flamers, heavy flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team, power weapon
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon team
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team

Infantry Platoon - 260
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Three meltaguns
-Infantry Squad
--Autocannon team, power weapon
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Autocannon team
-Infantry Squad
--Autocannon team

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

I still have 100 points to spend. If storm troopers cost marginally less I'd field a five man squad with two meltaguns for pseudo-suicide Sternguard purposes, but that would put me five points over. I suppose I could drop a vox-caster or downgrade the meltas on the second platoon command squad - if armor gets that close to them they're probably already dead. I could also put in a heavy weapons squad; it may be better to embed them in infantry blobs, but having them sans ablative wounds is better than not having them at all.

At any rate, Harker and the Demolisher both outflank, Harker thanks to him giving his squad Infiltrate and the Demolisher courtesy of Creed. The blobs sit back and do blob things with their heavy weapons, while the platoon command squads provide close support with their special weapons and supplement Creed's orders. The battle tank gets bubble wrapped in one of the blobs and provides heavy fire support.

This would probably be better if I dropped the Harker trick and spammed another infantry platoon, but frankly I like the Harker trick, though I might be persuaded otherwise. (The mixed special weapons in there are due to models owned, though come to think of it since I'm expanding my collection anyway, I could just get some more and standardize. But I find that being able to deal with either main type of threat when isolated in the enemy DZ with no control over what they deployed on the side of the board you come in on has some utility.)

[pilvento]

Short and fast question regarding eldar...

Are witchblades energy weapons?

if they are, where is it specified?

if they not, can warlocks still cause instant death using a psichic test after wounding

[Etcetera]

Short and fast question regarding eldar...

Are witchblades energy weapons?

if they are, where is it specified?

if they not, can warlocks still cause instant death using a psichic test after wounding

No to all questions.

Witchblades are not force weapons, they simply wound on 2s.
See the main rulebook.

[hamishspence]

On Chaos Space Marines- how common is it to make interchangable icons?

Something along the lines of a flagstaff on which a flag with the relevant Chaos symbol can be hung?

That's what I'm doing at the moment- because I figure it's more cost effective than buying a new CSM set every time I need a new icon bearer.

[Tren]

if they not, can warlocks still cause instant death using a psichic test after wounding

Witchblades are not Force Weapons. They've got their own special rules which amounts basically to always wounding on a 2+ and being S9 against vehicles.

[lord_khaine]

Witchblades are not Force Weapons. They've got their own special rules which amounts basically to always wounding on a 2+ and being S9 against vehicles.

Arrg, if only...

They are not even S9 vs vehicles anymore, thats only singing spears.

Imo Witchblades are incredibly sucky, worse than even power weapons.

[pilvento]

So my seer counsil on bikes squad sucks now

[Etcetera]

So my seer counsil on bikes squad sucks now

To my knowledge Seer Council haven't had force weapons since before the previous codex.

Besides. Rerolling 3+ cover saves!