Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Erloas]

Arrg, if only...

They are not even S9 vs vehicles anymore, thats only singing spears.

That is witchblades as well. The only difference between the two weapons is the singing spear takes 2 hands, and that it has a ranged option. So the witchblade is better in close combat because it is paired with your pistol for an extra attack that you don't get with the spear.

[hamishspence]

In 5E quite a few weapons lost the ability to gain an extra attack from having a pistol or CCW as well.

Was it changed so the "default" is no extra attack unless the weapon type is specified to allow it? (power weapon, CCW)

Or was it only a few weapons changed so they explicitly didn't allow it? (powerfist, thunder hammer)

[Timberwolf]

I'm playing an apocalypse game on Saturday and I'm borrowing a Hellhammer superheavy for the occasion (my opponent is taking a stompa). Anyone able to offer any suggestions about using this thing effectively ? I've never used a superheavy before. I kinda get the idea on rolling forward and using it as a 4 Twin linked Heavy flamer, 4 lascannon, demolisher and hellhammer cannon packing rolling bunker, but if anyone has any suggestions about using it more effectively then I'd welcome some advice.

[Erloas]

You get the extra attack unless the weapon says otherwise. It seems like there are a lot of exceptions, but I think its mostly because so many things ended up with weapons that just count as a basic CCW. Most weapons now, even unique special character weapons are "counts as" a power weapon, power fist, or CCW, with some other extra abilities tagged on.

Of course there were few weapons that were 2 handed that I remember, and being 2 handed you can't use it with a pistol or second CCW for a second attack because you don't have the hand to use it. Which is the case with the singing spear and seems to be a bit more common then it used to be.

[Sila Prirode]

On Chaos Space Marines- how common is it to make interchangable icons?

Don't do it at flagstaff at all. At least, not in the standard sense. My icon bearer is a guy who holds his left hand high, and I just "slot" the icon I want on it. Something like this, just with icons instead of that rod, because all icons have one good part at the bottom that you can use as a holding part.

[Tren]

They are not even S9 vs vehicles anymore, thats only singing spears.

Imo Witchblades are incredibly sucky, worse than even power weapons.

Definitely not. They lost the "triples Strength against vehicles", which has been replaced with a flat "the wielder of witchblade counts his Strength as 9."

I much prefer the Witchblade over the Spear, so I can fire the TL-shuricats and then get the extra attack in CC.

[Cheesegear]

So my seer counsil on bikes squad sucks now

Jet Councils have sucked for a while now. Well, not 'suck', but definitely nowhere near as good as they used to be. If it helps, Nob Bikers have suffered the same fate.

[Trixie]

So, I think I promised to write something! I think...

Sorry for the quality, I was sick whole day :(

The Background

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So, we started to play this small campaign with different players holding back different parts of the 'front', so to speak, in which I decided to take a part to finally get a feel of all the GK units (seeing this army isn't exactly cheap...) and builds. I'll try to include 'lessons learned' points, though, seeing so far all my battles were against orks, these might be a bit biased. I did not tailor my army, though, or rather, the amount of tailoring was as small as possible, as I faced very wide array of builds, from completely foot orks, to Speed Freeks - and twice, I ended up taking non-GK army I didn't played before to check it out, too. So, I hope it's as objective as possible.

Also, I was trying various GK units trying to see how they perform, resulting in often strange builds (suggestions of improvement?), but my opponent (who asked me to add here 'how cool he is') plays only orks and would like any and all critique/help you can give him :P

If you have any critique/ideas/questions, feel free to post or correct us.

Backstory

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The story starts with one Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, certain Eixirt, being the only notable defender of planet lying on the patch of massive ork WAAAGH! led by infamous Warboss Moonshoota. With that said...

Inquisitor finally nodded, having finished asessing the defense plans and possible units that could have implemented it. As local PDF was notoriously drunk dead, its lone Leman Russ being out of order due to driver's weak bladder, and general populace unwilling to defend themselves on their own (as it would be 'too costly' in terms of taxes) she finally realized asking locals is not the best plan she ever had, and someone else has to take a hand in dealing with the situation. But who?

One nod summoned an aide, a cogitator (named Neuescodicus) who always guessed her orders before she could even speak it. With a sigh, she grabbed an address list, containing contacts to nearest allies that would be willing to help... Only to realize half of the pages had been torn out. She was about to ask why and who defaced the holy book, until she suddenly remembered High Lords forbade any further allying with other Imperial forces ('shooting them afterwards is bad for morale', they said) thus, rendering her current position much more grave. With another loud sigh, she grabbed first sanctioned address, that or another Inquisitor, Ytirar of the Malleus, and dictated a short note to the astropath.

Nineteen hours later, just before orks could make planetfall, blood-red Imperial cruiser with unusual passengers arrived in orbit, their purpose at this stage of battle completely unknown...

Initial Imperial force composition:

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HQ:

Malleus Inq 'Ytirar' [80]
-Terminator Armor/Hammer/Psycannon

Xenos Inq 'Eixirt' [78]
-Power Armor/Psychotroke Grenades/Psyker/Force Weapon/Hammerhand

Troops:

5x Terminator [225]
-Justicar/Halberd
-Halberd
-Hammer
-Sword
-Sword/Psycannon

10x Strike Squad [230]
-Justicar/Hammer
-Psybolts

Support:

Dreadnought [135]
-2x TL Autocannon
-Psybolts

Basically, both Inquisitors were designed to supplement their respective units, hopefully multiplying their power, and testing which GK troop unit is better. Since no one did anything spectacular yet, as people in this thread like to do, I haven't named leaders of GK units yet, but I hoped to do so after the game :P

Ork vanguard force:

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Warboss
Big Choppa
Bosspole
[70]

Big Mek
Burna
[55]

8 Nobz Troops
Waaagh! Banner
[215]

Looted Wagon
Red paint
[40]

20 Ork Boyz
2 Rokkit Launchers
Bosspole
[205]

2 Deffkoptas
Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcher
[80]

2 Deffkoptas
Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcher/Kustom Mega-Blasta
[85]

Opponent's comment: Orks are da good 'grooma!

Map:

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Sadly, I don't have a photo, but it was 6x4 feet, with 6 area terrains set in two lines, much like on d6 in '6' position. From my opponent's position, wagon was on the left, deffkopta in middle, boyz on the right, with my terminators on the left, dreadnought in center, strikers on the right.

The game:

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At the start, Imperial forced decided to hand initiative to the enemy, going second, in hopes orks would close into the range of all the guns they had assembled. With that decision done, Inquisitors deployed second and did not try to capture the initiative.

Turn 1

Warboss decided to send boyz to the right, hiding them behind ruin, to capture an objective there. Deffkoptas and wagon rushed forward, fring wildly, but the only gun that was even remotely in range, rokkits on 'kopta, missed 'dread by about a mile, give or take.

In response, terminators were sent forward, opening fire on closest group of deffkoptas, killing one and wounding the other among the ork protests 'umiez have too much dakka!'. Dreadnought 'tactically advanced' backwards 6", firing its guns at the wagon, penetrating armor 4 times and wrecking it.

Turn 2

Lone, wounded deffkopta pilot decided enough is enough, and fired at the 'dread, this time accurately, wrecking it in the process, causing booing from Imperial side. Other two deffkoptas fired at terminators, achieving nothing. Warboss and his nobs tried to assault strike squad, sadly failing their run move by 1".

In response, terminators opened fire at the lone 'kopta, erasing this stain at Chapter's honour, while Ordo Xenos Inquisitor ordered her unit to open fire at nobs. 21 shots, 7 wounds and 1 nob dead later, after a bit of careful deliberation strike squad assaulted both nobs and fresh, close deffkoptas, to maximize grenade usage and to deny orks their furious charge/extra attacks. Sadly, grenades didn't do much, not affecting nobs, and only lowering 'koptas attacks. After another bit of deliberation, Iquisitor cast Hammerhand, while Justicar tried to cast force weapons, to try to ID 'koptas and warboss...

...and failed

Then, the attacks proceeded, with GK striking first, Inquisitor managing to wound both deffkoptas, while her Grey Knights slain 2 nobs and wounded warboss. Justicar, determined to do something after all, swung his hammer...

...and failed all 3 attacks

In return, orks managed to give GK 9 wounds, killing 5 after armor saves, 'koptas using Hit & Run to disengage.

Turn 3

Warboss kunningly ordered 'koptas back into the fray, hoping they will decide matters this time. Sadly, surprised pilots only managed to notice Inquisitor turning around and bonking one of them with a grenade which caused both orks to argue which 'kopta is more fasta! (attacking themselves result on grenade roll). Afterward, the Inquisitor fired Hammer once again, with Justicar following suit...

...and failing

Undaunted, the other GK and Inquisitor proceeded to attack orks, wounding 4 times and killing 2, with Justicar swinging, and...

Guess what he did

In return, orks kill two of the Emperor's Finest, and wound the Inquisitor. Having lost morale check, the nob prepares to run, only to see warboss whack him with the 'pole, making morale check, but killing his last nob in the process.

Terminators advance forward, and the combat continues with warboss finally dying, but not before orks manage to kill the remaining strikers, including their failure of a sergeant. Inquisitor fails to finish off the deffkoptas, and stands locked with them on her last wound.

...

Sadly, this is where we had to break the game due to running out of time, but I think she had a good chance of finishing them off on ork turn, and proceeding then to join the terminators, or at worst, terminators would kill them passing by on the way to ork boys. Had she joined them, I have little doubt I could have tried to pry the enemy off from objective, and possibly win. As it was, we agreed on draw, though my opponent initially insisted I could have lost due to lack of troops (and cursed after being told GK terminators are troops, too...). I liked both Inquisitors, being good 80 pts backbone of their squads, though, it's really a pity you can't take special grenades on Ordo Malleus ones. The Ordo Xeno one in particular made something on the range of Tactical Squad attack actual CC unit and hold 3 player turns, if only I had the ID weapons, too...

Having said that, I think the opinion that GK are CC units is bollocks, I did way more damage with 20 S5 ranged attacks hitting on 3+ than in any part of melee, that, and in one further game I'll describe later one unit of strikers proceeded to kill the entire enemy army with shooting. Sure, they can assault, but unless you tool for it, the results won't be pretty, force weapons or not.

So, um, I hope you liked the style, and if you want me to change it or make it more brief, just post :(

[Arcanoi]

*grudging appreciation*

I hope Inquisitor Ytirar was looking fabulous. Still think she would look more fabulous with a plasma syphon, as well as Rad and Psychostroke grenades though.

[Trixie]

I hope Inquisitor Ytirar was looking fabulous. Still think she would look more fabulous with a plasma syphon, as well as Rad and Psychostroke grenades though.

Name one ork plasma gun, then we will talk :P

In fact, in future games, I sort of gave up on halberds completely, once orks/chaos begun deploying massed fists/klaws I had to mass swords on both paladins and terminators to stay competitive.

Plus, I was under impression you only can have one kind of grenades.

Ok, 8 more games to write, though briefly as most were CPs, in case anypony's interested :P

[Arcanoi]

Name one ork plasma gun, then we will talk :P

Well aside from Orks, most armies get their AP2 killing power from some sort of Plasma gun. Also, do Mega Blastas count?

Plus, I was under impression you only can have one kind of grenades.

Nope, "May take any of the following:".

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm playing an apocalypse game on Saturday and I'm borrowing a Hellhammer superheavy for the occasion (my opponent is taking a stompa). Anyone able to offer any suggestions about using this thing effectively ? I've never used a superheavy before. I kinda get the idea on rolling forward and using it as a 4 Twin linked Heavy flamer, 4 lascannon, demolisher and hellhammer cannon packing rolling bunker, but if anyone has any suggestions about using it more effectively then I'd welcome some advice.

Keep it moving. Superheavies don't lose shots for moving, therefore one always moves one's superheavies, even if it's only an inch to the left or something. It's too easy for units to come out of nowhere and be in assault range with no warning in Apocalypse.

Apart from that, I employ a Baneblade rather than a Hellhammer, so I don't have any practical experience with the Hellhammer cannon. I do know you need to be closer, but against Orks you'll end up close very quickly anyway without any special effort on your part.

[Trixie]

Well aside from Orks, most armies get their AP2 killing power from some sort of Plasma gun. Also, do Mega Blastas count?

Well... IIRC, syphon works by making enemy BS1. Orks...

Are BS2 anyway

Plus, syphons open enormous can of worms once you get to more complicated plasma guns, like anything using blasts. If known enemy was, say, IG, maybe, though.

Nope, "May take any of the following:".

Hmmm, I'd have to check why I was under impression it's only one, then. Maybe it was the FAQ?

...

So, any more relevant critique?

[lord_khaine]

So my seer counsil on bikes squad sucks now

They would certainly be better off if they had power weapons.

Definitely not. They lost the "triples Strength against vehicles", which has been replaced with a flat "the wielder of witchblade counts his Strength as 9."

No, that were the Singing spears, a Wichblade cant do anything against a Vehicle.

[Cheesegear]

No, that were the Singing spears, a Wichblade cant do anything against a Vehicle.

I'm looking at page 42 of my rulebook. Witchblades do plenty well against vehicles. In fact, since vehicles don't get a save, Witchblades work better against vehicles than they do Infantry.

[lord_khaine]

I'm looking at page 42 of my rulebook. Witchblades do plenty well against vehicles. In fact, since vehicles don't get a save, Witchblades work better against vehicles than they do Infantry.

Well ill be damned, i guess i have been confused by the bad wording on the singing spear then.

[Craftworld]

So, any more relevant critique?

I personally liked reading it. To me it was a good mix of curtness and length, explanation of the game and fluffiness. If you can get pictures, that would make it even better.

[gabado]

got a sanguinary guard list, i wanted a list that features dante as anything but the head angel of suck, so here's my best shot:

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this is an apocalypse list, but i made somewhat of an effort to adhere to the normal FO charts, with the exception of heavy support that is .

HQ
dante: 225pt
Elite
sanguinary priest: 90pt
(power weapon, jump pack)
3 sanguinary priests: 270pt
(power weapon, jump pack)
Troop
sanguinary guard: 275pt
(death masks, chapter banner, power fist, infernus pistol)
sanguinary guard: 245pt
(death masks, power fist, infernus pistol)
sanguinary guard: 245pt
(death masks, power fist, infernus pistol)
sanguinary guard: 245pt
(death masks, power fist, infernus pistol)
Fast attack
baal predator: 145pt
(assault cannon, heavy bolter sponsons)
baal predator: 145pt
(assault cannon, heavy bolter sponsons)
Heavy support
predator: 95pt
(auto cannon, storm bolter, hunter killer missile, dozer blade)
storm raven: 255pt
(hurricane sponsons, typhoon launcher)
storm raven: 255pt
(hurricane sponsons, typhoon launcher)
storm raven: 255pt
(hurricane sponsons, typhoon launcher)
storm raven: 255pt
(hurricane sponsons, typhoon launcher)
Total: 3000pt (correct me if i made a mistake on the math)

this is designed to be fun, and to utilize dante in the best way i could. i do realize that this list is an apocalypse list, and as such does not require dante to lead it, but hey, i like dante, and i'm keeping him in! (although i will probably use the rules for a captain, seeing as they are better, point-wise than he is.)

[Ricky S]

Well it definately is a very small and elite army so you'll have to move fast to take out the opponent. The biggest problem I can see with your army is the lack of invulnerable saves but that is always the problem with the sanguinary guard. I am not so sure about the baal predators. As much as I love them apocalypse games tend to very vehicle heavy so unless you are facing orks or nids they might not see much action. What's the point of the single predator? It just feels out of place.


On an unrelated note if a land raider has a hurricane bolter and moves can it only rapid fire or can it still shoot up to 24" because it is a vehicle?

[Cheesegear]

On an unrelated note if a land raider has a hurricane bolter and moves can it only rapid fire or can it still shoot up to 24" because it is a vehicle?

Page 58 of the Big Rule Book can help you out.

[HalfTangible]

Sanguinary guard count as TROOPS when Dante's on the field?!

[Cheesegear]

Sanguinary guard count as TROOPS when Dante's on the field?!

Really, it's the only reason to take Dante.
And, Catch-22-itude, Dante is the only reason you take Sanguinary Guard.

[Penguinizer]

I'm curious, is there a good replacement for the sanguinary guard models. I don't like them at all. It's just hard fielding an army that can seriously be called The Nipplewing with a straight face.

[Ricky S]

Page 58 of the Big Rule Book can help you out.

Thanks Cheese. I was assured the last time I played that it couldn't fire long range if it moved but as I didn't have the page number I couldnt tell them otherwise.

[Ricky S]

I'm curious, is there a good replacement for the sanguinary guard models. I don't like them at all. It's just hard fielding an army that can seriously be called The Nipplewing with a straight face.

Vanguard veterans would be suitable or with a bit of conversion regular assault marines can work too.

[Borgh]

Or you just carefully file the nipples off.

[Ninja Chocobo]

I'm curious, is there a good replacement for the sanguinary guard models. I don't like them at all. It's just hard fielding an army that can seriously be called The Nipplewing with a straight face.

There's an easy solution to this.
Call it the "Golden Shower".

[Sila Prirode]

There's an easy solution to this.
Call it the "Golden Shower".

You Sir, made me spit milk all over my laptop. Now I have to go clean it. Curse your awesome sense of humor.

[Trixie]

I personally liked reading it. To me it was a good mix of curtness and length, explanation of the game and fluffiness. If you can get pictures, that would make it even better.

Well, I could try recreating the field in Vassal next time?

Alas, if only more than two people read that.... ;P

[Tychris1]

Well Tryxie I rather liked your post. I liked the humour sprinkled everywhere and the fact that you didn't leave anything out. Very good battlereport and I hope to read more from you in the future.

And I concur, a recreated battlefield would help immensely (instead of the blob of a battlefield I had in mind). It's not necessary but it definetely would set it above the bar.