Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Renegade Paladin]

No, its the Kool Kids Klub rule: everything must be branded. if they bring their puny bolt pistol to a battle they get sniggered at.

And if you snigger at Njal, the ground opens up and swallows you. It all makes sense.

Anyway, starting a campaign tonight. We're doing doubles, 1000 points per partner for a total of 2000. I don't know who I'm partnering with yet, but I'm thinking I'm going to throw everyone for a loop. What do you think of this?

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Campaign List 1

1000 points

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack
-Three plasma guns
-Carapace armor
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 200
-Sergeant Harker
-Two flamers
-Meltagun
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Infantry Platoon - 290
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Two flamers
--Heavy flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team
--Power weapon
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon team
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team

Infantry Platoon - 310
-Platoon Command Squad
--Four meltaguns
--Chimera dedicated transport
-Infantry Squad
--Autocannon team
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Autocannon team
-Infantry Squad
--Autocannon team

This will literally be my first time ever playing without at least one Leman Russ; I think the metagame might actually be shocked to see me not put a parking lot in my deployment zone. Only three Chimeras, so enemy anti-armor will be very concentrated, but with any luck Harker, at least, will get to do what he's supposed to before getting shot out of his vehicle. Thoughts?

Edit: Argh. I wrote to GW customer service yesterday asking when they planned to make the new Imperial Armour Apocalypse book available in the U.S. Their customer service manager (who really should know better) wrote me back about five minutes ago patiently explaining that it already was, with screenshots... pointing me to IA Apocalypse II, which is not the same thing, and being quite patronizing with the obvious assumption that I'm a flaming moron while proving beyond doubt he had no idea what my question actually was.

[Cheesegear]

Their customer service manager [...] being quite patronizing with the obvious assumption that I'm a flaming moron while proving beyond doubt he had no idea what my question actually was.

Honestly (with the exception of...Let's say one out of every four Blackshirts), GW customer service is absolutely shocking. GW treats its market the same way that gaming companies do; Everyone's an idiot, and anybody who plays competitively, isn't an idiot and/or looking for older stuff - for whatever reason - is pushed at arms' length.

[Ricky S]

Hey my friend has been playing imperial guard but has lost every game he has played so far and he is thinking about quitting the hobby.

He has a lot of tanks and very little troops.

He usually runs something like this
-Command Squad with carapace armour in a chimera
-Veteran Squad in Chimera
-Veteran Squad in Chimera
-Leman Russ, Heavy bolter
-Leman Russ, Heavy bolter
-Leman Russ, Heavy bolter

He just sits in the corner with his tanks and shoots at the enemy but that never does enough damage and then they reach him in close combat and he dies.

He also has a basilisk, 3 sentinels and is in the process of building a valkyrie and another 10 veterans.

Any advice on how he should play them so he can notch up a few wins.

[HalfTangible]

Hey my friend has been playing imperial guard but has lost every game he has played so far and he is thinking about quitting the hobby.

He has a lot of tanks and very little troops.

He usually runs something like this
-Command Squad with carapace armour in a chimera
-Veteran Squad in Chimera
-Veteran Squad in Chimera
-Leman Russ, Heavy bolter
-Leman Russ, Heavy bolter
-Leman Russ, Heavy bolter

He just sits in the corner with his tanks and shoots at the enemy but that never does enough damage and then they reach him in close combat and he dies.

He also has a basilisk, 3 sentinels and is in the process of building a valkyrie and another 10 veterans.

Any advice on how he should play them so he can notch up a few wins.

This is based on heresay of how a guard list works. Take it with a salt-lick instead of a grain.

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The whole point of a guard list is to have your infantry be largely disposable and absorb as much fire as possible from your few valuable units while your tanks and artillery back you up, right?

I'd say using the tanks to get infantry close instead of waiting for the tanks to be blown open would be a good way to start. In addition, he should field more than the minimum number of troops, particularly for point capture missions, as troops will usually carry the game.

[Renegade Paladin]

Carapace is only worth buying in very select setups, such as the one I use for my command squads with plasma guns. So that's twenty points. What's he arming the veterans with and how is he playing them once he does? If the answer is "three meltaguns and driving into the enemy's teeth to fire them" then he's doing it right. Otherwise he's probably better off with some infantry blobs to fire heavy weapons and bubble wrap his tanks.

When I first started, I ran all veterans too. My early winning streak was, as I have observed previously in these threads, purely due to my metagame not being prepared to take on that much mech. Now it is, and I'm forced to use platoons for my not-melta needs just to get enough weight of fire to remain competitive and keep order efficiency.

Anyway, not enough people showed up for the first night of the campaign to do doubles, so I had to do an emergency expansion of my list; I added on my usual Demolisher, battle tank, and Hellhound setup, which comes to an additional 500 points. I played another Guard player from out of town, pitched battle annihilation and came out with a draw on kill points with Harker's squad and their Chimera the last things on the board. He had more stuff, but he also had more kill points, and I killed them.

Honestly (with the exception of...Let's say one out of every four Blackshirts), GW customer service is absolutely shocking. GW treats its market the same way that gaming companies do; Everyone's an idiot, and anybody who plays competitively, isn't an idiot and/or looking for older stuff - for whatever reason - is pushed at arms' length.

Yeah, well after I just as carefully explained his mistake, he wrote back to say that the book is only available through Forge World now (well duh, I can see that) and he doesn't know if it'll ever be available in the U.S. Which wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, as all the others are, so I'll just proceed on the assumption he fed me that because he doesn't know the timetable and wait it out for a few months.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, well after I just as carefully explained his mistake, he wrote back to say that the book is only available through Forge World now (well duh, I can see that) and he doesn't know if it'll ever be available in the U.S. Which wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, as all the others are, so I'll just proceed on the assumption he fed me that because he doesn't know the timetable and wait it out for a few months.

It may also be due to the recent changes in GW's export policies. Since Black Library is not actually Games Workshop...Still, I really would like to see a copy of IA-A2 before I buy it.

[Zorg]

I got IA:A1v2 today, and it's pretty snazzy. The fixed a few glaring issues with the Phantom and the Contemptors are all fairly distinct and pretty solid.

They do also clarify that there are some things for use only in Apocalypse, but any non-superheavy, non-flyer unit is able to be used in any game. Additionally it does say you should check with your opponent beforehand if they're unfamiliar with the rules, but it also states that Forge World 40k stuff is, and always is, 'official'.

So there

[Renegade Paladin]

It may also be due to the recent changes in GW's export policies. Since Black Library is not actually Games Workshop...Still, I really would like to see a copy of IA-A2 before I buy it.

So they won't export to themselves? Wouldn't they stop selling the other IA books, then?

[Tome]

So they won't export to themselves? Wouldn't they stop selling the other IA books, then?

This is GW we're talking about here. 'Makes no sense' is perfectly in character for them.

[Renegade Paladin]

I got IA:A1v2 today, and it's pretty snazzy.

Did you order from Forge World, or is it being carried by someone else in Australia? (Do they even do preorders? I can't imagine something released on September 30th would be in Oz by October 5th without it when they typically take weeks for delivery to the U.S.) Just curious.

[Cheesegear]

I got IA:A1v2 today, and it's pretty snazzy. The fixed a few glaring issues with the Phantom and the Contemptors are all fairly distinct and pretty solid.

So, I assume you went to Games Day, weren't horrendously disappointed by what you saw and now you aren't Quitting Forever?

*deep breath* ...Yay!

[Mattarias, King.]

I got IA:A1v2

Query. Adeptas Sororitas: Present?

[Renegade Paladin]

Query. Adeptas Sororitas: Present?

From the table of contents, no. The Forces of the Imperium section seems to consist of Imperial Navy fighters and transports and fortress walls.

[Mattarias, King.]

From the table of contents, no. The Forces of the Imperium section seems to consist of Imperial Navy fighters and transports and fortress walls.

Indeed. Research however suggests Sisters may utilize Imperial Arvus Lighters and Aquila Landers. Consequences might be amusing.

[DaedalusMkV]

It may also be due to the recent changes in GW's export policies. Since Black Library is not actually Games Workshop...Still, I really would like to see a copy of IA-A2 before I buy it.

Just for you guys, I went into my local GW today and had a chat with the local Blackshirt. He's pretty good about giving the straight story to vets and tends to have good info on release schedules. The official word is: no word. Unofficially, he says we can probably expect the book to be released here in Canada sometime in November, possibly coinciding with a new "wave" of models, since that's what's happened with the last three Forge World books showing up in Canadian shops. Still no word on the next codex; apparently after the "Blood Angels fiasco" GW doesn't tell their Blackshirts anything about what they're going to release, just when. Huh. Well, at least it's nice to get a candid response. I have to make sure to get down there more often, it's a pretty nice community.

[Turcano]

Hey my friend has been playing imperial guard but has lost every game he has played so far and he is thinking about quitting the hobby.

He has a lot of tanks and very little troops.

He usually runs something like this
-Command Squad with carapace armour in a chimera
-Veteran Squad in Chimera
-Veteran Squad in Chimera
-Leman Russ, Heavy bolter
-Leman Russ, Heavy bolter
-Leman Russ, Heavy bolter

He just sits in the corner with his tanks and shoots at the enemy but that never does enough damage and then they reach him in close combat and he dies.

He also has a basilisk, 3 sentinels and is in the process of building a valkyrie and another 10 veterans.

Any advice on how he should play them so he can notch up a few wins.

He can take some pointers from one of the guys at my FLGS. He has the opposite problem: his Imperial Guard army is too good, and no one wants to play it anymore. His army has four main components:

~A Lord Commissar and a bunch of platoon units rolled up into one huge ass blob, with meltaguns out the strap and a command squad with a medic for FNP,
~Two full squads of armored Sentinels with plasma cannons,
~One squad of two Vendettas, and
~Two Leman Russ Executioners

If you remember a good while back, this is the guy who once made a grown man ragequit.

Edit: I almost forgot, there's also a Leman Russ Punisher with Pask.

[Renegade Paladin]

He can take some pointers from one of the guys at my FLGS. He has the opposite problem: his Imperial Guard army is too good, and no one wants to play it anymore. His army has four main components:

~A Lord Commissar and a bunch of platoon units rolled up into one huge ass blob, with meltaguns out the strap and a command squad with a medic for FNP,
~Two full squads of armored Sentinels with plasma cannons,
~One squad of two Vendettas, and
~Two Leman Russ Executioners

If you remember a good while back, this is the guy who once made a grown man ragequit.

Edit: I almost forgot, there's also a Leman Russ Punisher with Pask.

Sounds like a job for an ordnance battery and a Hydra squadron. That can't be the whole list; he needs another troops choice. Unless he's putting multiple platoons into one blob, which is illegal.

[Turcano]

Sounds like a job for an ordnance battery and a Hydra squadron. That can't be the whole list; he needs another troops choice. Unless he's putting multiple platoons into one blob, which is illegal.

The troops choices are the bits I have the most difficulty remembering. I think he might have other units in Chimeras, and I think he might have had a unit of snipers at one point, but the details elude me.

[FlyingScanian]

Sounds like a job for an ordnance battery and a Hydra squadron. That can't be the whole list; he needs another troops choice. Unless he's putting multiple platoons into one blob, which is illegal.

Not to mention that only Infantry Squads can "blob up". Not Heavy Weapon Squads, not Special Weapon Squads and certainly not Platoon Command Squads (meaning that the nice medkit only gives FNP to five dudes...)

[Turcano]

Not to mention that only Infantry Squads can "blob up". Not Heavy Weapon Squads, not Special Weapon Squads and certainly not Platoon Command Squads (meaning that the nice medkit only gives FNP to five dudes...)

Okay, that accounts for at least one of the Chimeras I remember. In any case, the infantry part of the army is just an objective holder/tarpit, while the hardware does most of the heavy hitting.

[Zorg]

Did you order from Forge World, or is it being carried by someone else in Australia? (Do they even do preorders? I can't imagine something released on September 30th would be in Oz by October 5th without it when they typically take weeks for delivery to the U.S.) Just curious.

Ordered from Forge World, shipped on the 27th. I ordered the day of the pre-order coming out, and hey usually ship early. I also got UPS shipping.

So, I assume you went to Games Day, weren't horrendously disappointed by what you saw and now you aren't Quitting Forever?

*deep breath* ...Yay!

Dude, I posted a link to my witeup earlier in the thread, which has had almost 7,000 views since Saturday, with pics and summaries of the Q&A sessions

Games Day was AWESOME! I had a long chat with Graham McNiell, Phil Kelly and Adam Troke, met lots of people and saw lots of cool stuff - and I was only there for a couple of hours as I came from work and went to work

[Talkkno]

How do people feel about Draigo+20 paladins+Librarian army? The idea of a super elite army appeals to me, and it did take 4th place at a local tounry around here with 100+ players...I was just wondering about peoples thoughts here about its viability.

[Hootman]

How do people feel about Draigo+20 paladins+Librarian army? The idea of a super elite army appeals to me, and it did take 4th place at a local tounry around here with 100+ players...I was just wondering about peoples thoughts here about its viability.

Is it viable? Well, sure, as long as you follow the following rules:

1) All paladins must be equipped (slightly) differently, so you can play musical wounds.
2) You must always buy a Pal-Apothecary, because he makes the music really loud.

And, as far as I know, that's pretty much it. T4, 2+ wounds each, 2+/5++, with FNP, the occasional 4++ and 2++ in close combat...this army is hard to stop. Not impossible, of course, but quite difficult without tailoring (or being a good Imperial Guard army).

The most important weakness of an army like this is Instant Death Spam. FNP won't work against anything of S8 or higher on a T4 model, which is conveniently the strength of Melta weapons, which also ignore your normal 2+ save. Lascannons are just as good, and really heavy ordinance (Demolisher Cannon, anyone?) can ruin your whole army in one shot with an improbable amount of luck (so, y'know, guaranteed to happen at least once).

If possible, I suggest making sure you have a model that can pick up all the different types of grenades (Techmarine, and possibly Inquisitor?), because the general consensus seems to be that they're incredibly powerful. I wouldn't know, my local GK player runs PsyRazorback / PsyRiflemen Dreadnought spam, and I've only gotten close to him once (that was how my Blood Angel Sergeant earned his name, if people recall).

[Trixie]

Is it viable? Well, sure, as long as you follow the following rules:

1) All paladins must be equipped (slightly) differently, so you can play musical wounds.
2) You must always buy a Pal-Apothecary, because he makes the music really loud.

1) They don't have to be (3-4 groups per unit is enough) but it helps.
2) No. IMHO, you should NEVER do that. Apothecary = 2 Paladins + Psycannon + spare change.

Why not? 2+ save is pretty damn strong, anything that won't beat it or won't ID a Paladin won't place enough wounds on them to kill even 1... Making you additional 'musical wound' models in the process. And, in general, when it came to things like Klaws or Fists, I placed them on wounded models, to prevent ID anyway, so, FNP wouldn't be that useful even if it worked.

I might be biased, since I only ever ran Paladins against I4 or below armies, but the thing you need the most with them is bodies. More bodies = more wounds and Psycannons. It's also important because I found units of 5 Paladins to struggle (by which I mean bleed points faster than enemy) against most dedicated CC units, while 6-7 + IC usually evaporated whatever enemy unit ran into them, making me eventually fielding them in all-Sword units (as I found 4++ more important than I6, but it's my local metagame).

And, as far as I know, that's pretty much it. T4, 2+ wounds each, 2+/5++, with FNP, the occasional 4++ and 2++ in close combat...this army is hard to stop. Not impossible, of course, but quite difficult without tailoring (or being a good Imperial Guard army).

No. This army is quite easy to stop. In fact, it relies on the fact enemy has no experience battling it or has no means to do so (with Paladins killing the 'means' first). It can be terrifyingly effective, but all you need is a handful of '1s' to ruin your day.

To be honest, I'd have given Paladins T4(5) or BS5 to make them balanced, but that's just me

If possible, I suggest making sure you have a model that can pick up all the different types of grenades (Techmarine, and possibly Inquisitor?), because the general consensus seems to be that they're incredibly powerful. I wouldn't know, my local GK player runs PsyRazorback / PsyRiflemen Dreadnought spam, and I've only gotten close to him once (that was how my Blood Angel Sergeant earned his name, if people recall).

Eh, grenades are not that important. Rad ones, especially, as you'll ID anything on 2+ anyway. Psychotroke? Maybe, but I found my usual Inquisitor with Psycannon more useful... Though, to be honest, I wished I replaced him with Paladin with Banner a few times, so IMHO, Inquisitors aren't a good match for this army. Librarian, maybe, they add something to them. But, every Paladin is almost a full Librarian-stat HQ, they don't need much besides bodies to be effective.

[userpay]

Hmm... Now I'm wondering why I didn't check here for a warhammer thread when I was playing it. Anyway does anyone know if there is going to be any update to the Tau? Last edition/update I know of is 4th edition. Otherwise I mostly play nid which I know has a 5th edition update.

[Trixie]

Hmm... Now I'm wondering why I didn't check here for a warhammer thread when I was playing it. Anyway does anyone know if there is going to be any update to the Tau? Last edition/update I know of is 4th edition. Otherwise I mostly play nid which I know has a 5th edition update.

Supposedly after Necrons, just before 6th Ed premiers. But, it's all just a rumour.

[Renegade Paladin]

The troops choices are the bits I have the most difficulty remembering. I think he might have other units in Chimeras, and I think he might have had a unit of snipers at one point, but the details elude me.

Either way, it doesn't really matter. That list isn't anywhere near unbeatable. I mean, it's workable (though I really don't like the Punisher; it costs way too much for what it does), but Hydras (or just sufficient autocannons, really, though Hydras are best at it) take care of the Vendetta problem, ordnance barrage of any type puts paid to blobs in a very big hurry, and except for the Vendettas he's got no high-strength anti-armor without getting into melta range. None of his vehicles except the Vendettas has anything over S7. The army will ruin a footslogger's day, but mech is king and he doesn't have the weaponry to deal with armor saturation.

Indeed. Research however suggests Sisters may utilize Imperial Arvus Lighters and Aquila Landers. Consequences might be amusing.

It being "forces of the Imperium," they can indeed. Of course, Apocalypse lets you use anything, so you could give them a Thunderhawk if you wanted. Neither of them are anything to write home about if their rules haven't changed much, though. The Aquila is a personnel shuttle with a low transport capacity (7? Something like that) and the Arvus is an unarmed cargo shuttle seating 12.

[HalfTangible]

Supposedly after Necrons, just before 6th Ed premiers. But, it's all just a rumour.

If that's the case i hope they design the Tau to work well under 6th edition rules...

[Zorg]

I've put a review of Imperial Armour vol1 2nd Edition up on my blog.

I really want to make a 6 Contemptor list now...

[Talkkno]

The most important weakness of an army like this is Instant Death Spam. FNP won't work against anything of S8 or higher on a T4 model, which is conveniently the strength of Melta weapons, which also ignore your normal 2+ save. Lascannons are just as good, and really heavy ordinance (Demolisher Cannon, anyone?) can ruin your whole army in one shot with an improbable amount of luck (so, y'know, guaranteed to happen at least once).

Well the squad that has draigo in it will be able to at least tank some of the Instant Death hits.

I thought Librarians were their mostly for its psychic hood...