Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Cheesegear]

Any advice on the list? I was thinking about dropping a unit of Dragons and taking another prism or unit of spears.

Autarch - 155 Points
Jetbike, Mandiblasters, Laser Lance, Reaper Launcher

Farseer - 98 Points
Singing Spear, Runes of Warding, Doom

Striking Scorpions (x7) - 269 Points
Exarch; Biting Blade, Shadowstrike
+ Wave Serpent; Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers

Fire Dragons (x7) - 249 Points
Exarch; Dragon's Breath Flamer, Crack Shot
+ Wave Serpent; Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers

Dire Avengers (x9) - 270 Points
Exarch; Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Defend
+ Wave Serpent; Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers

Dire Avengers (x10) - 177 Points
Exarch; Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Defend, Bladestorm

Rangers (x5) - 95 Points
Rangers (x5) - 95 Points

Shining Spears (x5) - 237 Points
Exarch; Star Lance, Withdraw

Fire Prism - 115 Points
Fire Prism - 115 Points
Fire Prism - 115 Points

Total: 1783.

Before anyone goes crazy, this is an all-'round general list. The following is simply how it works against DoA.

If you're tailoring, first thing to drop it to 1500 is probably the Fire Dragons, then the Rangers.

I don't care who you are. Dire Avengers with Shimmershield + Defend is a nightmare for just about any close combat unit. I take this anyway, even if I'm wasn't tailoring to DoA. Since you are, tarpitting Assault Squads is pretty awesome.

Rangers are used for area denial, more than anything. Unless you're getting hit by Vanguard, not much are going to want to get anywhere near them. Pinning = Death for a DoA list. And, if your opponent is using Vanguard to take out Rangers, he's doing something terribly wrong. Problem is, if he doesn't, he wont have a fun time.

Withdraw on the 'Spears is mainly to get out of combat with Vanguard on the turn they Strike. If anyone's going to charge anyone, it's going to be Shining Spears doing the charging. PROTIP; Jetbikes make you Relentless. Reaper Launcher on the Autarch is for winners.

Striking Scorpions should be Outflanking in the Wave Serpent (although they don't have to). It's handy for objective games.

Simply for Pinning purposes, I also recommend D-Cannons over Fire Prisms. If anything Deep Strikes near you (and it wants to), its going to get Void Holes in it's face. Unfortunately, they're Vanguard-bait. So probably not good against DoA. Worth considering though. And when you show up to the board with 9 of them, your opponent is not going to have a good day.

[Zorg]

Well, yeah, as I noted in the post-battle notes, Contemptors are pretty disappointing, and Riflemen would have been better

Still, I think my main issue with Contemptor is how schizophrenic it is. Is it shooty? Better save vs shooting, hard armour only in front, and number of guns it can take would suggest so, but... At the same time, it's higher than normal dread, which doesn't translate into gun height advantage, you can take only one gun (at least according to FW website rules), its WS is better than BS (and can't be raised) and it generally has a lot of issues, price being first of them. Would not recommend, IMHO, Ironclads are better, as are Riflemen.

Though, the above is written without seeing the book, IA v2 rules, which are probably better.

The final rules include things like raising the BS by one, giving it a cyclone, graviton gun, special plasma blaster and a few other gizmos. Or you could take a Mortis type for twin arm guns and a cyclone, at base BS5.


Armour of Contempt list:

Spoiler

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All dreads have extra armour

[HQ]

Master of the Forge (100)


[Elites:]

Contemptor w TL Autocannons, Cyclone, Plasma Blaster, +1BS (260)

Contemptor w extra DCCW, Cyclone, Plasma Blaster, Heavy Flamer, +1BS (275)

Contemptor w Kheres Assault Cannon, Cyclone, Graviton Gun, +1BS (275)


[Fast Attack]

3 x Lucius Drop Pods (195)


[Troops]

10 x Scouts w sniper rifles, missile launcher, melta bombs (155)

5 x Scouts w sniper rifles, missile launcher, melta bombs (90)


[Heavy Support]

Contemptor Mortis w twin Multi Meltas, Cyclone (205)

Contemptor Mortis w twin Kheres Assault Cannons, Cyclone (230)

Contemptor Mortis w twin TL Autocannons, Cyclone (215)


2000 points on the dot. Not competative by a long shot, but it'd be ludicrously fun

I did consider writing it with Dark Angels as they can get a Techmarine for every dread, but Dark Angels Techmarines suck more than Codex ones.

[Wraith]

2000 points on the dot. Not competative by a long shot, but it'd be ludicrously fun

For what it's worth, I can attest from personal experience that this would probably be very true - only this weekend, I played with my "Dread-Full" Space Marine Army and, though using more mundane Codex-based units (Ironclads instead of Contemptors, Drop Pods instead of Lucius Patterns) and despite the obvious failings of using Dreadnoughts in place of Terminators, Vindicators, Sternguard and the rest, it was tremendous fun while actually being surprisingly effective.

Admittedly I was rolling abnormally well throughout the game - my Drop Pods landed right where they needed to be, the Ironclads each successfully tearing apart a Defiler through sheer determination, and even my Tactical Squads saw off a unit of Raptors in close combat at one point - but Dreads are like other Mechanised armies in that without a dedicated method of beating high AV's then they're tricky to stop, with the added complication that they're not only going to shoot at you with missile launchers but are then going to smash your units to bits if they get close enough.

[Etcetera]

In general, how useful is the Fire Prism's ability to merge beams? Against MEQs is it generally worth firing a S6 AP3 large blast, or will 2 S9 AP2 Blasts do the job better?

Also, D-Cannon are pinning?

[Cheesegear]

In general, how useful is the Fire Prism's ability to merge beams? Against MEQs is it generally worth firing a S6 AP3 large blast, or will 2 S9 AP2 Blasts do the job better?

Minimal difference. Both are wounding on 2s either way and both cut through Power Armour. The difference comes in whether or not you're against Terminators or models with FNP. Which you probably are. Which means you need S8+ and/or AP2.

Also, D-Cannon are pinning?

Yeah. Read the rulebook. 'G' stands for 'Barrage'. True story.

[Etcetera]

Minimal difference. Both are wounding on 2s either way and both cut through Power Armour. The difference comes in whether or not you're against Terminators or models with FNP. Which you probably are. Which means you need S8+ and/or AP2.



Yeah. Read the rulebook. 'G' stands for 'Barrage'. True story.

Ah, ok, thanks.
And when the rulebook refers to "any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon", does that mean that as long as each weapon wounds you can force a pinning check per weapon? For example, if a unit of rangers shot a unit and caused two unsaved wounds, would that force two pinning checks or just the one?

[HalfTangible]

First lesson I learned yesterday: hive tyrants are tough ol bastards.

Second: if you want to win never play grey knights without their special rules. Even for simplicity's sake.

Third: fearless creatures still take leadership tests.

Fourth: Flamers can't be used in melee

Fifth: Remember to think about reinforcements.

Sixth: Psycannons get 4 shots if you stay still. Apparently.

[Winterwind]

Second: if you want to win never play grey knights without their special rules. Even for simplicity's sake.

That's true for most armies, really. Orks would probably have to cost half as much as they do if they didn't have their special rules.

Third: fearless creatures still take leadership tests.

Yes, but subject to the No Retreat! rule, rather than the regular test whether they break or not. They may suffer additional wounds from it, but they won't run away. Nevermind, missed you were talking about leadership, not morale.

Fourth: Flamers can't be used in melee

Like all shooting weapons. It's not "flamers can't be used in melee", it's everything that's being fired, unless it explicitly says otherwise (and I doubt there's anything that does so except maybe some psychic power I've forgotten about).

Sixth: Psycannons get 4 shots if you stay still. Apparently.

Well, yeah. That's what "Heavy 4 or Assault 2" means.

[Tren]

This isnt correct, Eldrad is a great deal as long as you dont need a Farseer on a jetbike.

This. Eldrad is a steal. He basically does the work of two farseers, with a 3++, T4, both runes and all powers included in his cost, and a power weapon that wounds on a 2+. On top of that, he lets you redeploy d3 units. All for less than two modestly equipped Farseers. The only thing you lose out on is a fourth power a round. Really though, it's not such a lose because Farseers can't cast the same power twice, while Eldrad can.

In general, how useful is the Fire Prism's ability to merge beams? Against MEQs is it generally worth firing a S6 AP3 large blast, or will 2 S9 AP2 Blasts do the job better?

Depends on how the enemy is clumped. If you've got a few guys packed together making a juicy target for a small blast, two shots might be the better option. Otherwise, the large blast is probably more reliable. Don't forget too, that combining beams twin-links the shot. So it's basically a more reliable, smaller number of hits vs the less likely potential for a larger number of hits.

[Hootman]

Interesting....my FLGS is apparently going to hold a 500pt Army tournament in 3 weeks, and I am considering joining. However, if I join, I want to be able to win at least once or twice, which is where you folks come in.

What type of army do you think will be the most effective at such low points? I own Space Marines and Orks, and I can make the Marines any flavor I want (except possibly Grey Knights) and have just about any build I want. I also have friends with Sisters and Tyranids, and I doubt they would mind letting me borrow the models for a day if I asked nicely.

So, what'cha think?

EDIT: Force Organization is all as normal, nothing is banned aside from Forgeworld. No limits on saves, wounds, AV, or what-have-you. Guessing there will be ONE Space Marine (possibly Templars) list with a Land Raider, and maybe one or two IG with a Russ, but I doubt that the AV 14 thing will be a huge problem. OH, and the table is 4x4, that's probably important, in the case of units that try to hide and outflankers and such.

[Erloas]

Interesting....my FLGS is apparently going to hold a 500pt Army tournament in 3 weeks, and I am considering joining. However, if I join, I want to be able to win at least once or twice, which is where you folks come in.

Are they using standard force organization rules? A lot of the time tournaments that play at 500 points use the combat patrol rules or a slight variation of it. It really changes what is available to each army and how you can play them.

[Etcetera]

Are they using standard force organization rules? A lot of the time tournaments that play at 500 points use the combat patrol rules or a slight variation of it. It really changes what is available to each army and how you can play them.

WAAAR WALKERS!

Oh, you didn't mention Eldar.

Never mind, then.

[Renegade Paladin]

[Fast Attack]

3 x Lucius Drop Pods (195)

If Lucius drop pods exist and are 40k-legal at that price, I call shenanigans. You'd buy that every time.

[Hootman]

Are they using standard force organization rules?

Yep, all other rules are as standard 40k. I've edited my post above to reflect that.

[Timberwolf]

What do people think to Vulture Gunships ? I'm thinking of getting 3 for a nice, cheap, Apocalypse formation to complement my Stormravens and munch hordes (the special ability for the formation is really rather nice in that regard). I can see they don't have the out and out armour killing capability of either the Vendetta or the Stormraven, but they're also half the price of a minimum spec Stormraven and look the business. Decisions, decisions as I peruse the Den of Temptation. (my tax rebate arrived today and Forgeworld is calling)

[Renegade Paladin]

What do people think to Vulture Gunships ? I'm thinking of getting 3 for a nice, cheap, Apocalypse formation to complement my Stormravens and munch hordes (the special ability for the formation is really rather nice in that regard). I can see they don't have the out and out armour killing capability of either the Vendetta or the Stormraven, but they're also half the price of a minimum spec Stormraven and look the business. Decisions, decisions as I peruse the Den of Temptation. (my tax rebate arrived today and Forgeworld is calling)

Have they been changed since Imperial Armour 8? The Elysian drop troop list (which I'd try if Forge World models and Valkyries weren't so ludicrously expensive) is the last version I've seen.

Assuming not, don't waste your time with the twin linked lascannon; it costs more than the Vendetta right there and does a worse job of it. I've never run one, but if I did I'd probably take the autocannon and possibly six HK missiles just for lulz.

Punisher cannons are a trap. They don't cost quite as much as they do on the Russ, but you have to eliminate all your other weapons bar the heavy bolter to mount them.

The model does, however, look ten different kinds of awesome, and I'd like to own one just for that. Perhaps if I have spare money when I do my own planned Forge World order come tax time.

[Timberwolf]

In all fairness to the Vulture Punisher, the rules I have make it twin linked, on a flyer. It still has no AP though, so yes, even Orks and Gaunts get a save :(. It also looks awesome. Trap it may be, but it looks too good to not have. I may have to get at least one (those missiles that I'll lose, at Guard BS, suck in comparison with Bloodstrikes, which I have in quantity).

[Wraith]

If Lucius drop pods exist and are 40k-legal at that price, I call shenanigans. You'd buy that every time.

They're an Apocalypse unit (Imperial Armour II) so they're only legal as long as your opponent agrees to it. But, yeah.

[Renegade Paladin]

They're an Apocalypse unit (Imperial Armour II) so they're only legal as long as your opponent agrees to it. But, yeah.

The ones in his list are different from IAII because they take up fast attack slots (I think they probably also cost more, but I don't have it in front of me to check). They seem to be in the new book, which has that blurb he quoted saying everything in it is official and has markers for what's Apocalypse-only and what's legal in normal games. Even so, shenanigans.

[evisiron]

Interesting....my FLGS is apparently going to hold a 500pt Army tournament in 3 weeks, and I am considering joining. However, if I join, I want to be able to win at least once or twice, which is where you folks come in.

If I were you, my first instinct would be to go with Orks with a bunch of Killa Kans. They are cheap, effective and it's unlikely people will have enough anti tank to take them down quickly. You can take 6 with enough points to add a KFF Big Mek, grots and a mini mob of boys, which will fill out your FO chart requirements.

[Teln]

Interesting....my FLGS is apparently going to hold a 500pt Army tournament in 3 weeks, and I am considering joining. However, if I join, I want to be able to win at least once or twice, which is where you folks come in.

What type of army do you think will be the most effective at such low points? I own Space Marines and Orks, and I can make the Marines any flavor I want (except possibly Grey Knights) and have just about any build I want. I also have friends with Sisters and Tyranids, and I doubt they would mind letting me borrow the models for a day if I asked nicely.

So, what'cha think?

Have a quick-and-dirty defensive Space Wolves list, with 40 points left over for whatever you like. I might have miscalculated the cost of the Long Fangs pack, but I'm away from my books at the moment.

Spoiler

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HQ:
Rune Priest (110 points)
-Chooser of the Slain
Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

Troops
Grey Hunters x5 (105 points)
-Mark of the Wulfen
-Wolf Standard
-Meltagun

Grey Hunters x5 (105 points)
-Mark of the Wulfen
-Wolf Standard
-Meltagun

Heavy Support
Long Fangs x6 (140 points)
-Missile Launcher x5

Total: 460 points

[crazedloon]

HQ:
Rune Priest (110 points)
-Chooser of the Slain
Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

Troops
Grey Hunters x5 (105 points)
-Mark of the Wulfen
-Wolf Standard
-Meltagun

Grey Hunters x5 (105 points)
-Mark of the Wulfen
-Wolf Standard
-Meltagun

Heavy Support
Long Fangs x6 (140 points)
-Missile Launcher x5

Total: 460 points

drop
-mark of the wulfen
-wolf standards
-1 long fangs

add
-rhino
-lasp/las razorback

We have been doing 500 point games at our local store as of late and this is the list which has been undefeated thus far (may also have something to do with the general)

[Renegade Paladin]

Company command squad, two squads of veterans, two Leman Russ battle tanks. Comes to 490, leaving ten points for special weapons and AV14 in 500 points twice. Set up in a corner, bubble wrap the tanks in the infantry, and blow everything up at range.

Of course, Guard wasn't one of your options, but it's what I would do.

[Ricky S]

The other option is that you just spam ork infantry. You could get a heap of them on the board and just overwhelm the opponent.

[Cheesegear]

Ah, ok, thanks.
And when the rulebook refers to "any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon", does that mean that as long as each weapon wounds you can force a pinning check per weapon?

Hah. I wish! Check the FAQ.
Each unit can only cause a maximum of one Pinning check, per enemy unit wounded per turn.

Interesting....my FLGS is apparently going to hold a 500pt Army tournament in 3 weeks, and I am considering joining. However, if I join, I want to be able to win at least once or twice, which is where you folks come in.

Oh man! You're using a normal FO Chart!? 500-point games are incredibly hard, and negate nearly half the units in the game. There's a very specific reason why a few places on the internet refuse to write anything less that 1750 points. Because half the 'broken' things in the game don't work. 500 point games - in the right crowd - are far more competitive than 2000 points. Because you can't wipe DZs in the first turn. You actually have to play the game 'til at least Turn 4! I know right? Weird.

Librarian - Shield of Sanguinius, Blood Lance
Librarian - Blood Boil, Blood Lance
Librarian - Force Dome, Machine Curse
Librarian - Force Dome, Machine Curse
Scouts (x10) - Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Scouts (x10) - Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher

500 points. It's pretty good.
If Blood Boil goes right, often even once, at 500 points it wins the game on it's own!

Succubus - Agoniser, Haywire Grenades
Mandrakes (x4)
Wyches (x9) - Haywire Grenades, Raider
Wyches (x10) - Haywire Grenades, Raider

498 Points. You could drop the Mandrakes and a Wych for a second Succubus.
But Assaulty-Infiltrators in 500 points are not fair. Scout list lololol.

EDIT: Only specific armies are available

Tervigon - Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst
Genestealers (x7)
Genestealers (x7)
Genestealers (x7)

494 Points. Although any Tyranid army that includes a Tervigon at 500 points, or even two, has got most games in the bag. Although, as with all Tyranid lists, vehicles are a problem.

Tervigon (<200 Points)
Tervigon (<200 Points)
2x10 Termgants (100 Points)

That's most games you can win right there. 200 points for a Tervigon is a lot, and I'm sure you wont need that much. Maybe spend a couple of points on some more Termagants. One of those Tervigons is Scoring.

Alpha Warrior (<105 Points)
2x10 Termagants
Tyrannofex - Rupture Cannon, Regeneration

Any Monstrous Creature with Regeneration in 500 points is unkillable. Fact. You could probably do it in the 2 Tervigon list. Except you probably wouldn't be able to afford Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs, which you do want on Tervigons.

With the except of Scout Lists and Dark Eldar, Monstrous Creatures in 500 points are not fair. I heartily recommend Tyranids for any low point games you want to try.

ION;

How are Red Scorpions and/or should I buy IA6?
In IA9, Sevrin Loth - while a little expensive - is impressive. And Culln's Chapter Tactics nearly breaks the game.

Saw IA6. Culln does what IA6 does for free. And by not using IA6 I can still use Scouts properly. Carry on.

[Hootman]

Hmmm. Space Wolves certainly are interesting, even at such low points. I've been fiddling with them for maybe 2 hours now, and I've come up with a few lists that are legal (though perhaps very silly). I'm fairly certain my favorite "THIS IS STUPID" list is the following:

Spoiler

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Rune Priest, 100pt
-Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

Rune Priest, 100pt
-Bolter
-Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf

Grey Hunters 5, 75pt

Grey Hunters 5, 75pt

Long Fangs 2, 75pt
-Missile Launcher
+Rhino

Long Fangs 2, 75pt
-Missile Launcher
+Rhino

For what I assume are obvious reasons, I'm tempted to use this list just to troll people. However, I do actually want to try to compete rather than just get justifiably punched in the face, so probably not a good idea. Aside from Crazedloon's list above, do people have any other good ideas for what I could do that might win?

(While I appreciate the votes for Orks, after having used them I just don't know if they'd be able to DO anything if I came up against a list like RenPally's, or an MSU-list. How would I deal with armor at all?)

[HalfTangible]

That's true for most armies, really. Orks would probably have to cost half as much as they do if they didn't have their special rules.

Yes but Orks still have numbers.

Like all shooting weapons. It's not "flamers can't be used in melee", it's everything that's being fired, unless it explicitly says otherwise (and I doubt there's anything that does so except maybe some psychic power I've forgotten about).

More precisely i learned they weren't an exception.

Well, yeah. That's what "Heavy 4 or Assault 2" means.

Really? I thought that referred to a specific type of heavy/assault weapon =/

[Ricky S]

Really? I thought that referred to a specific type of heavy/assault weapon =/

I think you need to read through the rule book from start to finish.

[HalfTangible]

I think you need to read through the rule book from start to finish.

Probably, yes. Or at least the rules section >.>

[Penguinizer]

I have a quick question. Is there some rule (note: Not common sense, RAW) that states where and where can I not put vehicles?

This stems from a minor disagreement at a megabattle where we couldn't decide if I could or could not deploy me tanks on the second floor of a small building. It did fit inside the building, I'm just curious as to if this is in the "No and why are you asking" category or "Why are you even asking".