Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[HalfTangible]

So the store has the armies and lets people use them? How can you have a demon army but no players for it?

Blood angels are marines.

The store has armies you can use for beginner games, several of them on display at any given time. One of the armies on display is a demons army

(there's a fantasy demon player but none in 40k. Dunno why.)

[Cheesegear]

(there's a fantasy demon player but none in 40k. Dunno why.)

Because in Fantasy they're one of the best armies and in 40K they're one of the worst?

[gabado]

more revisions, i hope it looks better than my first attempt

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HQ:
Lord Commissar: 80pt
power sword

TROOP:
Airborne Veteran squad 1: 130pt
3 meltaguns, grenadiers

Airborne Veteran squad 2: 130pt
3 meltaguns, grenadiers

Airborne Veteran squad 3: 130pt
3 meltaguns, grenadiers

Fast attack:
Valkyrie assault carrier: 130pt
(caries a veteran squad)
Multilaser, multiple rocket pods

vendetta gunship 1: 130pt

vendetta gunship 2: 130pt

Heavy support:
Lemun Russ squadron 1: 390pt
2 demolishers
All: meltaguns

Lemun Russ squadron 2: 330pt
2 battletanks
All: lascannon

hydra flack tank battery: 225pt
3 hydra flack tanks

total: 1805pt, check my math

so i have 195pt 'till i hit 2000pt, i was thinking about spending it on another demolisher, but that seemed kinda like overkill. thoughts?

[Hawkfrost000]

so i have 195pt 'till i hit 2000pt, i was thinking about spending it on another demolisher, but that seemed kinda like overkill. thoughts?

There is no such thing as overkill, there is only "fire" and "i need to reload"

DM

[Cheesegear]

more revisions, i hope it looks better than my first attempt

Right.

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Lord Commissar: 80pt
power sword

Still think he needs a Camo Cloak.

Airborne Veteran squad 1: 130pt
3 meltaguns, grenadiers

Airborne Veteran squad 2: 130pt
3 meltaguns, grenadiers

Airborne Veteran squad 3: 130pt
3 meltaguns, grenadiers

I still hate Grenadiers. +90 Points.

Valkyrie assault carrier: 130pt
Multiple rocket pods

vendetta gunship: 130pt

vendetta gunship: 130pt

Yep.

Leman Russ Demolishers (x2) 390
Multi-Melta Sponsons

Leman Russ Battle Tanks (x2) - 330
Lascannons

hydra flak tanks (x3) 225pt

All looks good.

so i have 285 points 'till i hit 2000pt

Get rid of Grenadiers. It doesn't do anything. If "Oh but it helps my Guardsmen stay alive!" is your response, then you're playing Guard completely wrong. 285 Points gets you another Veteran Squad (two Flamers and Heavy Flamer?) and another Gunship, with 55 points left. If you drop the Power Weapon (he's only I3) on the Comissar, you get 65 points, and that's enough for Marbo.

Grenadiers is good for Plasmaguns. Which Veterans shouldn't be doing because Command Squads do it better.

[Hootman]

So, apparently my FLGS is going to host a 2500pt doubles tournament at the beginning of December (1250 per team member). I am currently planning on entering with Mattarias, who shows up here every now and then and plays Sisters. Our current dilemma is as follows:

How the heck do you make a Space Marine / Sisters doubles army that synergizes well, instead of just being two small, slightly gimped armies? Is it actually possible, or am I really looking at this the wrong way?

I admit, I've been trying to figure it out all day, and I may just be too close to the problem to see the solution anymore. If anyone could offer some ideas, I'd appreciate it.

RULES OF THE TEAMS

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Each player takes a 1250pt list from one codex that's legal at the time of the tournament. No Forge World. Armies must follow this Force Org:

1 HQ
2-3 Troops
0-1 Elites
0-1 Fast Attack
0-1 Heavy Support

The remaining E/FA/HS slots that would be available in a single-army Force Organization are divided amonst the two players--one gets access to 2 of them, the other gets 1. The players decide how they want to work that out.

No abilities or wargear from one army can have any kind of effect on the allied army (No Chalice of Blood Sisters, no Faithful Marines, and no Vulkan-Sisters, sadly), regardless of phrasings like "all friendly models" or what-have-you.

We'll be using 3 of the 4 missions from the 2011 Adepticon Team Tournament, but it seems we will not know until the day of the tourney which ones that will be.

[Ricky S]

So, apparently my FLGS is going to host a 2500pt doubles tournament at the beginning of December (1250 per team member). I am currently planning on entering with Mattarias, who shows up here every now and then and plays Sisters. Our current dilemma is as follows:

How the heck do you make a Space Marine / Sisters doubles army that synergizes well, instead of just being two small, slightly gimped armies? Is it actually possible, or am I really looking at this the wrong way?

I admit, I've been trying to figure it out all day, and I may just be too close to the problem to see the solution anymore. If anyone could offer some ideas, I'd appreciate it.

RULES OF THE TEAMS

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Each player takes a 1250pt list from one codex that's legal at the time of the tournament. No Forge World. Armies must follow this Force Org:

1 HQ
2-3 Troops
0-1 Elites
0-1 Fast Attack
0-1 Heavy Support

The remaining E/FA/HS slots that would be available in a single-army Force Organization are divided amonst the two players--one gets access to 2 of them, the other gets 1. The players decide how they want to work that out.

No abilities or wargear from one army can have any kind of effect on the allied army (No Chalice of Blood Sisters, no Faithful Marines, and no Vulkan-Sisters, sadly), regardless of phrasings like "all friendly models" or what-have-you.

We'll be using 3 of the 4 missions from the 2011 Adepticon Team Tournament, but it seems we will not know until the day of the tourney which ones that will be.

First of all what sort of marines army do you play? What models do you and your ally have?

You have to figure out what is the best thing from each of the codex's and maximise it. The other thing you need to decide is how you are going to play the tournament. You can either both be shooting, both assault or mix it up with half assault and half shooting. You will probably need some sort of objective takers and objective holders. The objective takers dont need to be scoring as they can just contest.

Because marines and sisters are both shooting I would make a strong shooting list with some units that can assault.

[Cheesegear]

How the heck do you make a Space Marine / Sisters doubles army that synergizes well, instead of just being two small, slightly gimped armies? Is it actually possible, or am I really looking at this the wrong way?

Yes and no. Due to the rules of the tournament you can't actually synergise anyway. Since when I think of Synergise I think of Fateweaver and Hammernators.

Just make a kick-arse Marine army, and a second kick-arse Sisters army (is that a thing?). Because of the rules, you end up being two independent armies anyway and it's just a 1+1v1+1 (not even 2v2, there's a difference) tournament.

Marines

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Librarian - 100 Points

Sternguard (x5) - 190 Points
x4 Combi-Meltas, Heavy Flamer
+ Drop Pod

Tactical Squad (x5) - 175 Points
Sergeant; Combi-Flamer
+ Razorback; Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasmaguns

Tactical Squad (x5) - 175 Points
Sergeant; Combi-Flamer
+ Razorback; Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasmaguns

Tactical Squad (x5) - 165 Points
Sergeant; Combi-Melta
+ Razorback; Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90 Points

Predator - 85 Points
Heavy Bolters

Total: 980 Points

Sisters

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Uriah Jacobus - 90 Points

Celestians (x5) - 195 Points
Heavy Flamer, Flamer
Superior; Combi-Flamer
+ Immolator; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta

Battle Sisters (x10) - 190 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Superior; Combi-Melta
+ Rhino

Battle Sisters (x10) - 190 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Superior; Combi-Melta
+ Rhino

Battle Sisters (x10) - 195 Points
Heavy Flamer, Flamer
Superior; Combi-Flamer
+ Rhino

Dominions (x5) - 165 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Superior; Combi-Melta
+ Immolator

Retributors (x5) - 165 Points
x4 Heavy Bolters
+ Immolator; Twin-Linked Multi-Meltas

Total; 1190

...I hope no-one drops an Avatar on you.
Shoot him with Lascannons, Sternguns and Rending Retributors.

270 Points left for the Marines
60 points left for Sisters

For Marines I'd take another Typhoon (90), another Pred (85), and then fill the Sternguard with three extra Combi-Meltas/Plasmas (90), 5 left for Melta Bombs or something.
Or Hammernators (200) and a HF/MM Land Speeder (70).

For Sisters? Probably 4 things from the Battle Conclave (from Jacobus). 3 Assassins, 1 Crusader. Or just drop the Celestians and go with a full Conclave. But you wouldn't have anything to back it up with, unless your Marine-partner also took Hammernators.
Take the Retributors' Immolator, and Dedicate it to the Conclave. That way you can field it in Dawn of War because it's a Dedicated Transport for an HQ.

Sisters are not my strong suit, but I gave it a shot. Mostly by thinking "What would Marines do?"...Sadly, Sisters are just mediocre Marines.

...Huh. I actually thought that'd take me longer to do. Still, most of it was just copy-paste. Still, having 'half' an FO chart is a pain in the arse. I tried to fill in all the slots I could just so one team member doesn't hog the army.

EDIT: Ricky S makes a good point. Without the proper models, you can't make my list.

[gabado]

Right.
Still think he needs a Camo Cloak.

i looked on the faq and i couldn't find the rule you were referring to in one of your previous posts, could you give me a link or summarize it.

I still hate Grenadiers. +90 Points.

i'll get rid of them.

that's enough for Marbo.

i like Marbo's rules, but he doesn't really fit the theme of my army, it's gonna be a Valhallan armored company. i suppose i could proxy him, or GS the model to look more WW2 rusian-y.

[Cheesegear]

i looked on the faq and i couldn't find the rule you were referring to in one of your previous posts, could you give me a link or summarize it.

Check the main rules FAQ. Page 7, first column.

Not the IG FAQ. I want you to find it and print it out. That way you can show people when they ask you. "What happens when an IC with Stealth joins a unit?"
Then think (I want you to work it out, rather than me explain it to you), why you might want your IC to have a Camo Cloak.

Because it's part of the FAQ, and not in a Codex or Rulebook, a lot of people aren't going to know the rule, your response to "Prove it." should never be "Well, some guy on the internet said..."

i like Marbo's rules, but he doesn't really fit the theme of my army, it's gonna be a Valhallan armored company. i suppose i could proxy him, or GS the model to look more WW2 rusian-y.

I only suggest Marbo because 55 (65) points doesn't go very far in the IG Codex, and Marbo was the best thing I could come up with. Your other option is like, one Sentinel. Which you can't even do because your FA slots are filled with Gunships. So, yeah. Marbo. Or 5-6 Ratlings.

[gabado]

looked up the rule, and yes, i am definitely giving my commissar a camo cloak.
revised:

Spoiler

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Lord Commissar: 90pt
power sword, camo cloak

TROOP:
Airborne Veteran squad 1: 100pt
3 meltaguns

Airborne Veteran squad 2: 100pt
3 meltaguns

Airborne Veteran squad 3: 100pt
3 meltaguns

Fast attack:
Valkyrie assault carrier: 130pt
Multilaser, multiple rocket pods

vendetta gunship 1: 130pt

vendetta gunship 2: 130pt

Heavy support:
Lemun Russ squadron 1: 390pt
2 demolishers
All: meltaguns

Lemun Russ squadron 2: 495pt (i added a tank, more blast templates all around )
3 battletanks
All: lascannon

hydra flack tank battery: 225pt
3 hydra flack tanks

total: 1890pt

i was thinking about adding another commissar, to ride with another vet squad and spread the camo cloak love. other than that, marbo seemed kinda cool, but taking him leaves me with an awkward 45pt and nothing to spend it on.

[Cheesegear]

i was thinking about adding another commissar, to ride with another vet squad and spread the camo cloak love. other than that, marbo seemed kinda cool, but taking him leaves me with an awkward 45pt and nothing to spend it on.

If you're low on points, and want more things, I suggest the first thing to drop be the Hydras. Although, obviously, it depends 100% on what you're dropping them for.

[gabado]

If you're low on points, and want more things, I suggest the first thing to drop be the Hydras. Although, obviously, it depends 100% on what you're dropping them for.

i'm rather reluctant to drop the hydras, there are a lot of skimmers in my meta game, and far too many movement based cover saves.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Hmm. New Necrons on the GW website, and about time too. They've shifted some units around and added some more named characters. If only I lived in a country with an actual GW store...

[Cheesegear]

Hmm. New Necrons on the GW website, and about time too.

Yeah. The models looks great. Unfortunately, due to incredibly stupid policy, GW doesn't preview the Codecies anymore so how do I know what I want to Advance Order and what I don't? So, unfortunately, what I'm seeing is that Warriors and Destroyers are exactly the same, so, I'm going to buy all the Battleforces I can get my hands on, because I just know MSUs in Ghost Arks will be alright. Because that's how the game works.

To be honest, I'm more impressed that Eldar are getting all their Finecast up. That's been a long time coming.

[Wraith]

i like Marbo's rules, but he doesn't really fit the theme of my army, it's gonna be a Valhallan armored company. i suppose i could proxy him, or GS the model to look more WW2 rusian-y.

What you need, is a model of a dog carrying saddlebags packed with C4.

....It sounds incredibly twisted, but that actually happened in WW2 and was designed by the Russians. It didn't work so well (blame/thank Pavlov) but for a guy whose special rules are basically "run forward, try to kill loads of stuff in one spectacular explosion and then be quickly removed as a casualty next turn" it is very thematic.

[lord_khaine]

Regarding the Sister of battle army, i heard that they can take both Cult assasins and those guys with Stormshields from codex GK, mixing those 2 into a unit should give something that can take most other assult unit down in a fair fight.

And dont they also have some special char to give the unit FnP?

[Trixie]

Regarding the Sister of battle army, i heard that they can take both Cult assasins and those guys with Stormshields from codex GK, mixing those 2 into a unit should give something that can take most other assult unit down in a fair fight.

And dont they also have some special char to give the unit FnP?

Yes, yes, and yes :P

[Cheesegear]

Regarding the Sister of battle army, i heard that they can take both Cult assasins and those guys with Stormshields from codex GK, mixing those 2 into a unit should give something that can take most other assult unit down in a fair fight.

However, unlike Grey Knights, Battle Conclaves don't come in Stormravens, or anything with Assault Vehicle for that matter, nor can they be made Scoring. Nor do they come with a 25 point Inquisitor with Rad Grenades. So, yes they exist. And yes I did suggest putting them in the list. But, considering the points involved (2500), they're not going to last long, so, I only suggested a small unit that didn't cost a lot. And only because I couldn't think of anything else that costed 60 points or less. That being said. Sisters are like Marines. Sure, you can have a Battle Conclave, but you're not going to have anything to back it up with. Sisters are a shooty army and should be played as such.

So, Battle Conclaves do exist. But if you're banking on them, you should be playing actual Grey Knights for access to rad Rad Grenades, and backup.

[lord_khaine]

However, they still do have that FnP guy, who as i recall also gives an additional attack?

That would make for a great countercharge unit, and though not having grenades sucks a bit, then its still not the end of the world.

[Hootman]

...Sadly, Sisters are just mediocre Marines.

...Wow. I never realized how mediocre they were until I realized that you built essentially matching lists in terms of FO Slots and apparent effectiveness, but the marines still have 270 more points to play with (and the ability to pop a good 5 enemy vehicles on turn 1). That's really kind of sad. Gonna fiddle with various lists on my 2 hour train ride home, and maybe I'll have something good by then.

[gabado]

so i think i pretty much worked out how i am going to equip everything, here it is:

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Lord Commissar Resnov Pavlushca: 90pt
power sword, camo cloak

Lord Commissar Demitri Povov: 90pt
power sword, camo cloak

TROOP:
Airborne Veteran squad 1: 100pt
3 meltaguns

Airborne Veteran squad 2: 100pt
3 meltaguns

Airborne Veteran squad 3: 100pt
3 meltaguns

Fast attack:
Valkyrie assault carrier: 130pt
Multilaser, multiple rocket pods

vendetta gunship 1: 130pt

vendetta gunship 2: 130pt

Heavy support:
Lemun Russ squadron 1: 410pt
2 demolishers
All: meltaguns, dozer blades

Lemun Russ squadron 2: 495pt
3 battletanks
All: lascannon

hydra flack tank battery: 225pt
3 hydra flack tanks

total: 2000pt

the second commissar will accompany another vet squad, spreading camo cloaked love to all those loyal to the Emperor.
i added the dozer blades simply because i had 20 points and nothing to spend it on. i have also seen far too many tanks get immobilized on terrain, my gaming group is a little over zealous when it comes to setting up the table.
my other option to spending those 20 points was to drop a melta gun off of one of the squads and give the squad without a commissar the "forward sentries" doctrine, that way all of my scoring units have +1 to cover saves when they are capturing objectives. the one problem with this is having to drop a melta gun, not something i relish doing. thoughts.

[Cheesegear]

...Wow. I never realized how mediocre they were until I realized that you built essentially matching lists in terms of FO Slots and apparent effectiveness, but the marines still have 270 more points to play with (and the ability to pop a good 5 enemy vehicles on turn 1).

Like I said, since neither army's bonus can affect the other, you're better off just going two straight-good lists instead of trying to 'synergise'. Even though the lists I wrote essentially do that anyway. The Tactical Squads (being MSU and fragile) sit in the back with their Las/Plaserbacks and shoot down tanks, while the Sisters - being 10-strong - go forwards in Rhinos and small-arms fire everything to death with Bolters and Fire.

And, again, I only matched FO Slots because I didn't want one of you guys hogging the slots over the other one. What do I know? You may have Comp Scores. Otherwise just pick and choose all the best stuff out of either list for each slot.

Generally speaking, if MSU Razorspam is good for Marines; MSU Immolator spam is just as good for Sisters - even though it's not quite, lack of range hurts.

Gonna fiddle with various lists on my 2 hour train ride home, and maybe I'll have something good by then.

Marines should be easy. If you've spent more than a few minutes on the internet, there's probably a dozen lists you can find for the models and/or playstyle that you have.

Sisters are a little trickier. Since they're far more recent, and, obviously their 'Codex' doesn't have a lot going for it by way of options. Couple of tips for Sisters;

Uriah Jacobus. Always first pick. All the time. If you were allowed a second HQ, then it's a toss-up between Saint Celestine and Kyrinov. The non-Uniques are borderline junk. Mostly the better pick is Kyrinov for the second Battle Conclave (and more Faith). IMO, one Battle Conclave - even with Jacobus - is junk and is a fire magnet. Two, on the other hand is rather good. But, yeah, you don't take one without another. And you can't.

Due to the way Faith works (badly) you probably don't want more than 6 units that can use Faith. You want every single one of your squads to be able to use at least one Faith point every turn (that's why Jacobus and Kyrinov are excellent), and having more than 6 units is annoying. But, at 1250 points, and only 'half' an FO Chart, I don't see this as being a problem since my list came up with six exactly.

Anyway, yeah. Sisters don't have many options (especially with only half a Chart). It's not that hard to build a Sisters list if you keep in your head "What would Marines do?"
Well, for starters. they'd probably take more Plasma wea- SHHHHHH....

[Trixie]

However, unlike Grey Knights, Battle Conclaves don't come in Stormravens, or anything with Assault Vehicle for that matter, nor can they be made Scoring. Nor do they come with a 25 point Inquisitor with Rad Grenades. So, yes they exist. And yes I did suggest putting them in the list.

Eh, to be fair, Jacobus and Kyrinov are better than most generic Inquisitors you can make. Still, that's a point, yes, though GK Inquisitor units also don't have access to any assault vehicles unless you splurge for additional, very expensive FO unit that deeply eats into your point allowance.

Though, I might be just biased, since using 260 pts vehicle to transport 180 pts unit ended, with my lone test of that unit, with said vehicle being wrecked by ork warboss (since I had to drive it into assault range) after not doing much of note. Still, at least assassins paid for themselves, gutting Nob biker deathstar before being wiped out after 3 turns of combat.

[Hootman]

Today, I have expanded my search to find things I think will work well in pairs. For a while I thought Black Templars might be a great partner, but then I realized I don't have enough melee scouts to run horde, and I don't have enough Land Raiders to run mech. Plus, WAY too expensive for 1250.

So, I moved on. Currently, I'm considering a Space Wolves / Dark Angels pairing, which seems to me to be viable on both the tabletop and in fluff (so long as we both take badass HQ's and have them duke it out before the tourney). I'm thinking my lists will look something like this:

THE WOLVES

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HQ
Rune Priest, 120pts
-Chooser of the Slain, Saga of the Beastslayer
-Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

Rune Priest, 110pts
-Chooser of the Slain
-Powers: Living Lightning, Tempest's Wrath

ELITES
Wolf Scouts 5, 115pts
-Mark of the Wulfen, Melta, Power Weapon

Wolf Scouts 5, 115pts
-Mark of the Wulfen, Melta, Power Weapon

TROOPS
Grey Hunters 10, 195pts
-2 Plasmaguns
+Rhino

Grey Hunters 10, 185pts
-2 Meltas
+Rhino

Grey Hunters 9, 170pts
-Flamer
+Rhino

HEAVY SUPPORT
Long Fangs 5, 115pts
-4 Missile Launchers

Long Fangs 5, 115pts
-4 Missile Launchers

TOTAL: 1250 points

THE ANGELS

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HQ
Belial, 130pts
-Lightning Claws

TROOPS
Deathwing Terminators 5, 240pts
-2 TH/SS, Chainfist, Cyclone Missile Launcher (with TH/SS)

Deathwing Terminators 5, 240pts
-2 TH/SS, Chainfist, Cyclone Missile Launcher (with TH/SS)

Deathwing Terminators 5, 240pts
-2 TH/SS, Chainfist, Cyclone Missile Launcher (with TH/SS)

FAST ATTACK
Ravenwing Land Speeder, 75pts
-Multimelta, Typhoon Missile Launcher

Ravenwing Land Speeder, 75pts
-Multimelta, Typhoon Missile Launcher

TOTAL: 1000pts

As you can see, I've got quite a few points left over in both lists, but I'm fairly certain I've managed to build something sweet here. The thought of firing 18 missiles per turn makes me giddy.

So, what do you think I should add and/or change? I was considering putting one of my Grey Hunter units into a Drop Pod for a nice combo-alpha strike with the Deathwing, but I see the Deathwings don't auto-correct their scatter like a Pod does (too bad) or reduce it like Blood Angels (which they really probably should do).

EDIT: Considering dropping a Grey Hunter from 2 of the units and adding a second Rune Priest with Living Lightning, so both units can be really dangerous while still on the move in their Rhinos. Alternatively, adding a second Rune Priest with Living Lightning and attaching both to Long Fang Packs, so I can fire from a million miles away, target whatever I please, and never fear anything, ever. Only weakness of the latter plan is that I may be too far away to nullify any front-line psychic attacks.

EDIT 2: I added in the second Rune Priest, with Tempest so I can be essentially immune to people who don't like to take risks and people who deep strike. Good deal, as far as I can tell. However, I've managed to go 30pts over due to some apparently shoddy addition I did previously, so I'll have to make some cuts. Should I cut back the plasmaguns to meltas, or take wargear from the Scouts? Both, other? My math was actually right the first time, so it only took a minor shifting around to get the points I needed for the second Rune-Man.

[Cheesegear]

So, I moved on. Currently, I'm considering a Space Wolves / Dark Angels pairing, which seems to me to be viable on both the tabletop and in fluff (so long as we both take badass HQ's and have them duke it out before the tourney). I'm thinking my lists will look something like this

You could always try Dark Angels and Dark Angels. One side goes Deathwing, the other side goes Ravenwing Codex Marines. By which I mean it's only a 1250 list, so go Marines. You can still look like Ravenwing if you want though.

Only weakness of the latter plan is that I may be too far away to nullify any front-line psychic attacks.

What? You know about Independent Characters right? If, at the Deployment Phase, it suits you better to do one thing, then do it. You get to change where your Independent Characters go every game. I'm tired of this "My IC goes in [this unit]." because only a silly person plays that way.

If your opponent is Tau (no Psykers), or Imperial Guard (no good psykers) then what's the problem? If your opponent is Blood Angels? Then sure, put your Rune Priest in a Rhino. You get to choose.

[Hootman]

What? You know about Independent Characters right? If, at the Deployment Phase, it suits you better to do one thing, then do it.

Well, of course, I simply prefer (with most lists) to know what my defaults are. For this list, unfortunately, I DO have to choose what I want to be ready for at the beginning, because if I want there to be an open slot in a Rhino for my Rune Priest, I have to cut down that unit to 9 models (losing a plasmagun as well). I suppose that's not REALLY a problem, though, since cutting that ensures I have just enough room to fit the Priest in the list in the first place, and they don't lose THAT much firepower being one man down.

I guess I'll edit the second priest into the list for now, and see if you or anyone else has any edit suggestions in the morning.

RE-EDIT: Apparently I forgot that Space Wolves get their second special weapon for free; I DO have the points for the Priest.

[Ricky S]

Well, of course, I simply prefer (with most lists) to know what my defaults are. For this list, unfortunately, I DO have to choose what I want to be ready for at the beginning, because if I want there to be an open slot in a Rhino for my Rune Priest, I have to cut down that unit to 9 models (losing a plasmagun as well). I suppose that's not REALLY a problem, though, since cutting that ensures I have just enough room (EDIT: Apparently not quite, whoops) to fit the Priest in the list in the first place, and they don't lose THAT much firepower being one man down.

I guess I'll edit the second priest into the list for now, and see if you or anyone else has any edit suggestions in the morning.

Thats why razorback armies are so great you always have a spare seat for the character to sit in.

[Ninjaman]

What? You know about Independent Characters right? If, at the Deployment Phase, it suits you better to do one thing, then do it. You get to change where your Independent Characters go every game. I'm tired of this "My IC goes in [this unit]." because only a silly person plays that way.

Well sometimes you have to choose, some armies have only one choice, or at least only one choice that makes sence.

[Squark]

So, unfortunately, what I'm seeing is that Warriors and Destroyers are exactly the same, so, I'm going to buy all the Battleforces I can get my hands on, because I just know MSUs in Ghost Arks will be alright. Because that's how the game works.

I'd hold off on that- Ghost Arks seem to be more of a Rhino type transport. Judging by unit sizes, I'm thinking this "Night Scythe" transport is what you want.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Intersesting things you can learn from the Necron site;

1) Immortals are troops. This is very, very good, simply because it skewers the complaints about Necron troops being worse than Marines.

2) What the Ghost Ark has (and doesn't); 2 Gauss flayer Arrays. Admittedly, these could be revised. But I think most of us recall how (in)effective arrays ca be. Also has something called a repair bridge- Perhaps the "Dump removed units back onto the field" thing the rumors were talking about 6 months ago?

3) There is a second dedicated transport called a Night Scythe, and it is available to Warriors. Lychguards, Immortals, and Deathmarks can only use the Night Scythe (Razorback equivalent?), while Praetorians are footslogging Jump-infantry.

4) No new fast attack yet revealed, but Heavy destroyers have been moved to fast attack, and all Destroyers are jump infantry I'm going to miss turbo-boosting my troops to retreat.

5) Scarabs are in the Warrior box, but there is no word on what they do.

On a more positive note, I'm loving the idea of giving my Necron overlord a retinue. The idea of a bunch of bickering immortal robot courtiers, each with their own eccentricities, sounds endlessly amusing.

EDIT: Flayed Ones are now Initiative 2... What. And so is every other Melee Necron... I don't see how on earth these guys are going to function as dedicated assault units.

EDIT2: Flux arcs now have a clear arc of fire, considering the Monolith now has four, and the Ghost Arc/Doomsday ark has two (one on each side, no doubt). Curious. Could these be made into actual, effective weapons?