Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Silverlich]

So, anyone have recommendations about a Nurgle Chaos Daemons army?
First Draft:

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Total: 1584 points

HQ:505 points

Ku'Gath: 300 points

Epidemius: 110 points

Herald of Nurgle: 95 points
-Chaos Icon
-Cloud of Flies
-Palanquin of Nurgle

Troops: 799 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x10: 155 points
-Instrument of Chaos

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x10: 155 points
-Instrument of Chaos

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x10: 155 points
-Instrument of Chaos

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5: 100 points
-Chaos Icon

Nurglings x9: 117 points

Nurglings x9: 117 points

Heavy Support: 280 points

Daemon Prince: 140 points
-Mark of Nurgle
-Breath of Chaos

Daemon Prince: 140 points
-Mark of Nurgle
-Breath of Chaos

[Timberwolf]

But Ward wrote Codex Marines...

Oh yes, I know that the Ultrasmurf's #1 fan wrote that Codex. But try telling that to someone who is convinced that he's the avatar of all evil who writes codices specially to trump CSM and that the only army's who are going to win are Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar and now Necrons because Ward wrote it (he has obviously never run into Foot Guard / a proper Leman Russ line, been run over by Black Templars, tried to kill the Deathwing Command squad, shot uselessly at Thunderwolves and then been taken apart, been drowned in Gaunts by multiple Tervigons, fought a properly done Eldar list, experienced the horror of triple Exorcists and Saint Celestine the indestructible, tried to deal with a kan wall with 2 KFF Meks etc etc etc).

Anyway, thanks for the ideas, glad to see I'm mostly on the right lines. I'll see if I can get him to take a few of them on board next week.

[Sila Prirode]

You don't really need Instrument of Chaos. Also just one Icon on 5 man squad, it's kinda of a waste of points.

[The Glyphstone]

I think my biggest beef with the new Necron codex is that my massive Warrior force, which were formerly the lynchpin of the army because they were the only Troop slot, are now crappy cannon fodder between lower armor saves and nerfed We'll Be Back/Reanimation Protocol, forcing me to cough up a ton of dough for metal-only Immortals to be an actual core unit.

[hamishspence]

WBB works on everything now though. Power weapons, Str 8+ weapons, the lot.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh hey, it does. That mollifies me a little bit, actually.

[hamishspence]

And with Ghost Arks, those Warriors will be made even more effective.

[Squark]

I think my biggest beef with the new Necron codex is that my massive Warrior force, which were formerly the lynchpin of the army because they were the only Troop slot, are now crappy cannon fodder between lower armor saves and nerfed We'll Be Back/Reanimation Protocol, forcing me to cough up a ton of dough for metal-only Immortals to be an actual core unit.

Actually, Immortals (and the deathmarks who can be made with the same kit), are plastic. And they're very similar in body type to the old immortals, so any metal immortals you do have won't look that out of place. And they've dropped in price by a bit 50% per model because of that, by my count.

So, here's a question; Are regular lords worth taking anymore (I've heard them described as functioning something like a commissar/sergeant now

[hamishspence]

[And they're very similar in body type to the old immortals, so any metal immortals you do have won't look that out of place.

Except the really old 2nd ed immortals- but even they might fit in.

Given that they're re-released the 2nd ed Lord in Finecast, it appears that some of the old models are not too out of place.

So, here's a question; Are regular lords worth taking anymore (I've heard them described as functioning something like a commissar/sergeant now

Since they're cheap (if weaker) and come with option to take resurrection orbs- and you can have 5, I suspect they'll still be common.

[gabado]

All the lists you present are better as Blood Angels. Other than that, they're fine.

ehh, i usually play blood angels, i'm looking for a break in the norm. i have more fun playing templars than blood angels.

Tyranids, Space Wolves and Greenskins? Given the choice, why try and beat them at their own game? At this level of play, your best bet is an All-Infantry Gunline.

how's this?

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hq:
castellan 90pt
-power weapon
-storm bolter
-melta bombs

command squad 120pt
-terminator honors and power weapon (sergeant only)
-apothecary
-bolt pistols and ccw's

troop:
initiate squad A 145pt
-5 initiates, 5 neophytes (all with ccw's)
-heavy bolter
-melta gun

initiate squad B 145pt
-5 initiates, 5 neophytes (all with ccw's)
-heavy bolter
-melta gun

total: 500pt

i suppose i could use the blood angels codex, but i would like to play as a black templars force. proxying just seems kinda... lame.

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, Immortals (and the deathmarks who can be made with the same kit), are plastic. And they're very similar in body type to the old immortals, so any metal immortals you do have won't look that out of place. And they've dropped in price by a bit 50% per model because of that, by my count.

So, here's a question; Are regular lords worth taking anymore (I've heard them described as functioning something like a commissar/sergeant now

Yeah, I'd posted that before I looked to see if there was an inevitable plastic kit for them out.

[Squark]

Except the really old 2nd ed immortals- but even they might fit in.

Given that they're re-released the 2nd ed Lord in Finecast, it appears that some of the old models are not too out of place.



Since they're cheap (if weaker) and come with option to take resurrection orbs- and you can have 5, I suspect they'll still be common.

How many points are we looking at for a lords with res orb and a weapon upgrade (sort of like how everyone gives their sergeants powerfists), though? If that's 30-45 points, I might see them being used for larger squads, but if we're talking 60 points...

[hamishspence]

The latter. While the lord is very cheap, the Orb is as almost expensive as the un-upgraded Lord is.

[Wraith]

Quick tangent, going back to my previous questions about disembarking:

10 Space Marines jump out of a Land Raider within charge range of your unit. They all have Bolt Pistols and Chainswords apart from one. This one has either a Power Fist, or a meltagun.

The question is: Which one do you think is scarier?

I'm trying to weigh up my anti-Mech options, but without cutting something significant I don't have the points to get both. Also, I don't think that I need such a great amount of redundancy between the Predators and Land Raiders escorting them.
The Power Fist gets a big lift in conjunction with Accept Any Challenge and/or a nearby Chaplain, but I can probably find a cheaper army to run something as crude as a Power Fist Delivery System.
Meanwhile, the meltagun is possibly going to be more reliable if it hits, but chances are I'm only going to get to use it once so if I miss then it's wasted.

So, Straw Poll away - which would you least prefer to see jump out of the LandRaider in front of you?

[Arcanoi]

How many points are we looking at for a lords with res orb and a weapon upgrade (sort of like how everyone gives their sergeants powerfists), though? If that's 30-45 points, I might see them being used for larger squads, but if we're talking 60 points...

A Lord with Warscythe (Probably the best option, acts much like a Sergeant with Pfist, 2 S7 attacks with +2d6 pen) is 45 points, and likely worth taking a lot of. A Resurrection Orb, however, is another 30 points, and likely not worth it unless the Lord will be leading a max squad of Warriors. Thinking about it now, though, putting one of them in a squad of Lychguard with shields might be effective.

[Trixie]

Quick tangent, going back to my previous questions about disembarking:

10 Space Marines jump out of a Land Raider within charge range of your unit. They all have Bolt Pistols and Chainswords apart from one. This one has either a Power Fist, or a meltagun.

The question is: Which one do you think is scarier?

I'm trying to weigh up my anti-Mech options, but without cutting something significant I don't have the points to get both. Also, I don't think that I need such a great amount of redundancy between the Predators and Land Raiders escorting them.
The Power Fist gets a big lift in conjunction with Accept Any Challenge and/or a nearby Chaplain, but I can probably find a cheaper army to run something as crude as a Power Fist Delivery System.
Meanwhile, the meltagun is possibly going to be more reliable if it hits, but chances are I'm only going to get to use it once so if I miss then it's wasted.

So, Straw Poll away - which would you least prefer to see jump out of the LandRaider in front of you?

Power Fist in BT is A1, is not AP1, doesn't let you kill multiwound Paladin or Warrior before the fight even starts, does not have 2d6 penetration, doesn't let you kill that walker before he kills 3-4 marines, hits on 4/6+ instead of 3+, finally, doesn't give you option of simply not assaulting.

On the other hand, Power Fist... Uh, ignores cover saves? Can sometimes snipe ICs? That's all, IIRC.

[gabado]

So, Straw Poll away - which would you least prefer to see jump out of the LandRaider in front of you?

i would be much more intimidated by the power fist, for two reasons.

first, a sergeant with a power fist has 3 attacks on a charge, meaning that there is a serious risk of my guys eating up to three instant death power weapon attacks.

second, the power fist is, in my opinion, better at dealing with vehicles than the melta gun. for a melta gun to get it's 2d6 of armor penetration, it needs to be fired within 6 inches of it's target. at that range, assaulting with a power fist is much more devastating. yes you don't get the 2d6, but you get three attacks in stead of one, and you are always hitting rear armor.

of course Trixie is right about the walkers, although, firing a melta gun at an angry dreadnought is almost as dangerous as punching it in the face with a power fist. in a fight against a walker, i would leave the anti tank to the land raider.

in most situations, i would put my money on the squad with the power fist. of course the best solution is to take both the power fist and the melta gun, but as you said, you don't have enough points.

[Trixie]

i would be much more intimidated by the power fist, for two reasons.

first, a sergeant with a power fist has 3 attacks on a charge, meaning that there is a serious risk of my guys eating up to three instant death power weapon attacks.

He is talking about BT, IIRC. No Sergeants, A1. That's it.

second, the power fist is, in my opinion, better at dealing with vehicles than the melta gun. for a melta gun to get it's 2d6 of armor penetration, it needs to be fired within 6 inches of it's target. at that range, assaulting with a power fist is much more devastating. yes you don't get the 2d6, but you get three attacks in stead of one, and you are always hitting rear armor.

3 Attacks (or 2, in case of BT) hitting on 6+? In my experience: don't bother.

Also, Walkers are always hit in front, good luck doing anything to AV 13 with your Power Fist.

[gabado]

He is talking about BT, IIRC. No Sergeants, A1. That's it.

oh, didn't see that

in that case, go with the melta gun

[Timberwolf]

So, Straw Poll away - which would you least prefer to see jump out of the LandRaider in front of you?

This will be a very Blood Angel answer... If 1 attack is all you get with the fist then the melta, definitely. If you get more then the fist starts to weigh on my mind a little more but not much. In my favourite list, I have Stormravens and Dreadnoughts that need to fear the Melta or fist. Both are S8 hits, but the melta does it at range and is AP1, so, assuming it penetrates, a 50% chance of losing my vehicle plus a chance of dying to a glance. With the fist, I have a better than even chance of surviving. Also, against the Dreadnoughts, the melta can have its 2d6.

Additionally, with the fist, it is entirely possible that even if it gets the charge on my Dreadnoughts, the Talons will rip the squad apart before it gets to have a go, negating it entirely. No such problems with the Meltagun. Jump out, shoot. If you win, YAY ! If you miss, oh dear.

[Eldan]

As an Eldar Player, much more intimidated by the melta. First of all, it shoots before I get a chance to hit back, which can matter with, say, Walkers. Second, if it hits, the vehicle is likely to be toast, which isn't as likely with the fist.

[Etcetera]

As an Eldar Player, much more intimidated by the melta. First of all, it shoots before I get a chance to hit back, which can matter with, say, Walkers. Second, if it hits, the vehicle is likely to be toast, which isn't as likely with the fist.

Yeah, I imagine against Eldar, DE, and maybe Newcrons a melta's going to be better, due to the number of fast skimmers, particularly those of poncy space elves. You'd probably have the same problem with BA or Ork mech, as well.

[Silverlich]

New version:

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Total: 1584 points

HQ:505 points

Ku'Gath: 300 points

Epidemius: 110 points

Herald of Nurgle: 95 points
-Chaos Icon
-Cloud of Flies
-Palanquin of Nurgle

Troops: 809 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x10: 175 points
-Chaos Icon

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x10: 150 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x10: 150 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5: 100 points
-Chaos Icon

Nurglings x9: 117 points

Nurglings x9: 117 points

Heavy Support: 280 points

Daemon Prince: 140 points
-Mark of Nurgle
-Breath of Chaos

Daemon Prince: 140 points
-Mark of Nurgle
-Breath of Chaos

Also, could someone explain Instrument of Chaos?
Also, if I am just entering Warhammer 40k, what is the points level I should aim for?

[Wraith]

On the other hand, Power Fist... Uh, ignores cover saves? Can sometimes snipe ICs? That's all, IIRC.

All very good points, you've certainly swayed me by giving voice to my own arguments.
Still, the Power Fist also Instant Deaths Ork Nobz and can be a reliable turning point against other Space Marines and Terminators (both of which I face regularly, the latter I'm especially likely to see a lot of should I go looking for All Comers)

If you remember my last Battle Report, I had a unit of 10 Marines tarpit a large unit of Nobz for 3 turns; One Power Fist in that unit, and I would probably have won that combat outright by the second. Which, despite the meltagun being incredibly useful and reliable for that one shot, are why I'm struggling to decide which'd be better on balance.

This will be a very Blood Angel answer...

Again, thanks for those points.
In truth, Dreadnoughts and the like will hopefully to get a Lascannon or four to the face long before they get near to my "Tactical Marines". There's really no scenario where allowing a Dreadnought that close my Troops choices - Power Fist, meltagun or otherwise - is going to end well for me, so I'm more inclined to try and count the ways in which each choice would be useful rather than unhelpful.

Still, thanks guys. I might just drop my Assault Marines down to 6 members instead of 7, and try to squeeze both into my Initiates - lucky number or otherwise.

[Ninjaman]

If you remember my last Battle Report, I had a unit of 10 Marines tarpit a large unit of Nobz for 3 turns; One Power Fist in that unit, and I would probably have won that combat outright by the second. Which, despite the meltagun being incredibly useful and reliable for that one shot, are why I'm struggling to decide which'd be better on balance.

That is luck, a nob should kill an average of 1 marine per turn, the marines don't stand a chance. Hammernators is ÿour only hope of taking a nob unit in CC.

An Trixie what is IIRC?

[Squark]

An Trixie what is IIRC?

If I Recall Correctly

[Eldan]

Btw, do we still have any Vassal players alive on the board? I'd very much like to play a game or two with the (for me) new edition of the core rules and a few eldar lists I haven't really tried yet before I go out and buy a ton of models.

[Wraith]

That is luck, a nob should kill an average of 1 marine per turn, the marines don't stand a chance. Hammernators is ÿour only hope of taking a nob unit in CC.

With a Power Fist, the Nob unit would have been missing 1 additional model (from the charge) and then one more per turn thereafter, as well as the ones inflicted by the ordinary Marines. And of the two units engaged in the fight, only my guys aren't allowed to run away....

Simply put, killing 4 more Nobz before the Marines are inevitably crushed and then leaving them a weakened target for the next unit of Marines/Predator Annihilator *is* a victory for me. I don't expect one guy with a Power Fist to win a game for me, but I know from experience that they'll turn the tide in a single melee quite easily.

[Etcetera]

Btw, do we still have any Vassal players alive on the board? I'd very much like to play a game or two with the (for me) new edition of the core rules and a few eldar lists I haven't really tried yet before I go out and buy a ton of models.

Trixie and me play a fair amount of Vassal, me as Eldar and her as whatever takes her fancy, generally marines. IIRC you're in the same time zone as both of us, so games should be fairly easy to arrange. My knowledge of the rules is a little rusty, but I'm improving.

[Eldan]

My rule-fu would be incredibly rusty. I last played before the current version of the core rules came out. Four, five years ago? So, I've read the new book, but I'm not too good on details.