Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Etcetera]

My rule-fu would be incredibly rusty. I last played before the current version of the core rules came out. Four, five years ago? So, I've read the new book, but I'm not too good on details.

Well, that's not a problem. Do you have Vassal installed and the 40k pack up to date? If you do, we could play a small game (500-750, mayhaps), tomorrow afternoon or evening, if you're free. If not, give a time and I'll see if I can make it.

[Cheesegear]

the only army's who are going to win are Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar and now Necrons because Ward wrote it

...But Phil Kelly wrote Dark Eldar...He also wrote Space Wolves. I'm still yet to see anything scarier than 4 Rune Priests and 3 sets of Long Fangs. Jaws, Living Lightning, Jaws, Living Lightning...15 Missiles.

New version:

I think you should be fitting a third Daemon Prince in.

Also, could someone explain Instrument of Chaos?

If a combat results in a draw (e.g; You deal 3 wounds, your opponent also deals 3 wounds), you end up winning by 1 anyway.

Also, if I am just entering Warhammer 40k, what is the points level I should aim for?

750. But, since your Daemons, and Daemons don't work in small amounts, maybe 1000? Given your army build doesn't work without both Epidemius and Ku'Gath, maybe 1250?

Common points; 1000, 1250, 1500, 1750, 1850, 2000, 2500, 3000, 5000.
Most armies are designed so that 2500 points has filled most/all FO Charts and generally your army is considered 'complete'. After that, you're building Apocalypse Formations and Heavies.

[filvento]

So, what do you guys think about Ghosts ark? Im thining in something like Imotek and 2 ghots arks full of necron warriors.
While Lighting destroy enemy's unit, I just keep moving until im close enough to rapid fire. and BOOM!
Also wraiths are pretty cool, and monolith can be viable.

Do you guys have any thought about this? or any improved list?

[Timberwolf]

...But Phil Kelly wrote Dark Eldar...He also wrote Space Wolves. I'm still yet to see anything scarier than 4 Rune Priests and 3 sets of Long Fangs. Jaws, Living Lightning, Jaws, Living Lightning...15 Missiles.

Oh yes. All you say is completely true. And you, I and pretty much everyone else knows it. However, when someone's having a brief trip to the Pit of Despair, it's easy to blame a convenient target.

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay, that's it.

Here is a list.

I call it my Samuel L. Jackson "I am sick and tired of these Marines in this metagame" list.

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1500 points

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Infantry Platoon - 325
-Platoon Command Squad
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team, power weapon
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team
-Heavy Weapon Squad
--Three autocannons

Devil Dog - 140
-Multimelta, smoke launchers

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Executioner - 230
-Plasma cannon sponsons

Basilisk - 125

My thinking goes that maybe if I bring this enough, some of the xenos players that gave up Orks, Tyranids, and so forth in favor of Marines might go back. Maybe.

[Sila Prirode]

New version:

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Total: 1584 points

HQ:505 points

Ku'Gath: 300 points

Epidemius: 110 points

Herald of Nurgle: 95 points
-Chaos Icon
-Cloud of Flies
-Palanquin of Nurgle

Troops: 809 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x10: 175 points
-Chaos Icon

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x10: 150 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x10: 150 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5: 100 points
-Chaos Icon

Nurglings x9: 117 points

Nurglings x9: 117 points

Heavy Support: 280 points

Daemon Prince: 140 points
-Mark of Nurgle
-Breath of Chaos

Daemon Prince: 140 points
-Mark of Nurgle
-Breath of Chaos

Also, could someone explain Instrument of Chaos?
Also, if I am just entering Warhammer 40k, what is the points level I should aim for?

Points are more of a money problem then a points problem, but others here are more experienced about that. Read the opening post in this thread about various armies, there are much good information there.

As for the rest of the list, Icons are not that good. They don't work for half your army, and if you don't have them in every unit then you may not have them where you need it. Even if you do have them, there is still a good chance you won't use them. So the points from that are better spent elsewere. Get rid of the icons, and make all the troops 9 in size (sacred number of Nurgle is 9, and you won't miss that one guy that much ).
With that done, you have 1498, which is just under 1500 (most games where I play are played like that).

[Silverlich]

Points are more of a money problem then a points problem, but others here are more experienced about that. Read the opening post in this thread about various armies, there are much good information there.

As for the rest of the list, Icons are not that good. They don't work for half your army, and if you don't have them in every unit then you may not have them where you need it. Even if you do have them, there is still a good chance you won't use them. So the points from that are better spent elsewere. Get rid of the icons, and make all the troops 9 in size (sacred number of Nurgle is 9, and you won't miss that one guy that much ).
With that done, you have 1498, which is just under 1500 (most games where I play are played like that).

The idea I had for the Chaos Icons that Epidemius never has to take a scatter test. If Epidemius doesn't deploy well, it would be really, really bad. The primary unit of my army not going splat when deep striking is worth 25 points to me, as I have only kept the icon on the Herald.

Spoiler

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Total: 1499 points

HQ:505 points

Ku'Gath: 300 points

Epidemius: 110 points

Herald of Nurgle: 95 points
-Chaos Icon
-Cloud of Flies
-Palanquin of Nurgle

Troops: 724 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x9: 135 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x8: 120 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x9: 135 points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5: 100 points
-Chaos Icon

Nurglings x9: 117 points

Nurglings x9: 117 points

Heavy Support: 280 points

Daemon Prince: 140 points
-Mark of Nurgle
-Breath of Chaos

Daemon Prince: 140 points
-Mark of Nurgle
-Breath of Chaos

[Timberwolf]

Okay, that's it.

Here is a list.

I call it my Samuel L. Jackson "I am sick and tired of these Marines in this metagame" list.

Ohhh yes. Subtle. I like it. I'm working up a Guard army now, but I'm going to do Elysians for fast, gunshippy fun.

[Trixie]

Btw, do we still have any Vassal players alive on the board? I'd very much like to play a game or two with the (for me) new edition of the core rules and a few eldar lists I haven't really tried yet before I go out and buy a ton of models.

As Etc mentioned, me, for one, since I started investigating it for AARs.

Still, the Power Fist also Instant Deaths Ork Nobz and can be a reliable turning point against other Space Marines and Terminators (both of which I face regularly, the latter I'm especially likely to see a lot of should I go looking for All Comers)

Well, unless Ork player plays it smartly and allocates PF wounds into already wounded Nobz... I know I did when Ork Nobs with Klaw tried charging my Paladins. Over the whole game, I lost maybe 1 fully healed Paladin model.

That, and Melta can kill the Nob before the charge, or even from outside the charge range, and does it a lot more reliably. IMHO.

[Ferreon]

Get rid of the icons, and make all the troops 9 in size (sacred number of Nurgle is 9, and you won't miss that one guy that much ).

7 actually, Tzeentch is 9

[Renegade Paladin]

Ohhh yes. Subtle. I like it. I'm working up a Guard army now, but I'm going to do Elysians for fast, gunshippy fun.

There are all of two squads in there than don't have AP3 or better on something, and one of them is the autocannons for Rhino-popping, and Scout duty in a pinch. A Devil Dog can eat a Land Raider for breakfast, and everything else is designed to burn power armor. I briefly considered a Bane Wolf instead of the artillery, but decided that would be too obvious.

Going to use the IA Elysian Drop Troops list? I would love to have a go at it, but I need loads more money to do it properly as over half the models are Forge World only, what with the aircraft and all.

[Timberwolf]

Going to use the IA Elysian Drop Troops list? I would love to have a go at it, but I need loads more money to do it properly as over half the models are Forge World only, what with the aircraft and all.

There's a lot to like in it, especially for a confirmed air power addict like myself. Especially when you read the errata and find out that they screwed up and the vets are meant to be BS4. The command squad got done over though, only 1 special weapon and only the master of the Fleet.

I'm going to be cheap about this on the currency side I'm afraid. It makes me a bad person but I just don't like the infantry models, so I'm using Cadians, which I vastly prefer. I also had a very good week on ebay last week and picked up a Vulture, 2 Vendettas and a pair of drop sentinels, all magnetised. So, when it comes to Forgeworld only stuff, all I really need is a pair of vultures and a pair of Tauros. Of course, the £170 just on Valkyries, plus another however much to get the 3rd Vendetta, another 2 infantry squads, finding 9 meltagun guardsmen (any ideas that don't involve buying the GW meltagun and plasmagun blisterpack at exorbitant price are truly welcome) is not going to be cheap. Still, the 4 sets of Rocket pods, the silly amount of lascannon fire from the Vendettas and all the other bits I've built in are going to be fun to play with. I'm especially looking forward to the Tauros.

[Sila Prirode]

The idea I had for the Chaos Icons that Epidemius never has to take a scatter test. If Epidemius doesn't deploy well, it would be really, really bad. The primary unit of my army not going splat when deep striking is worth 25 points to me, as I have only kept the icon on the Herald.

If you put Epidemus in your first wave he can't benefit from Icons, because there are not Icons on the field in first turn. So you have to keep him in reserve, if you want him to benefit from Icons. And that is bad, because you don't keep tally while he isn't on the table.

@Ferreon thanks for the tip about numbers, I got them mixed up it seems.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Going to use the IA Elysian Drop Troops list? I would love to have a go at it, but I need loads more money to do it properly as over half the models are Forge World only, what with the aircraft and all.

Im slowly working towards a elysians list myself. Seems like they would be a world of fun to play

[Eldan]

Well, that's not a problem. Do you have Vassal installed and the 40k pack up to date? If you do, we could play a small game (500-750, mayhaps), tomorrow afternoon or evening, if you're free. If not, give a time and I'll see if I can make it.

I should have the newest version, yes. I'm working in the afternoon, but evening should work.

[Ricky S]

All very good points, you've certainly swayed me by giving voice to my own arguments.
Still, the Power Fist also Instant Deaths Ork Nobz and can be a reliable turning point against other Space Marines and Terminators (both of which I face regularly, the latter I'm especially likely to see a lot of should I go looking for All Comers)

If you remember my last Battle Report, I had a unit of 10 Marines tarpit a large unit of Nobz for 3 turns; One Power Fist in that unit, and I would probably have won that combat outright by the second. Which, despite the meltagun being incredibly useful and reliable for that one shot, are why I'm struggling to decide which'd be better on balance.



Again, thanks for those points.
In truth, Dreadnoughts and the like will hopefully to get a Lascannon or four to the face long before they get near to my "Tactical Marines". There's really no scenario where allowing a Dreadnought that close my Troops choices - Power Fist, meltagun or otherwise - is going to end well for me, so I'm more inclined to try and count the ways in which each choice would be useful rather than unhelpful.

Still, thanks guys. I might just drop my Assault Marines down to 6 members instead of 7, and try to squeeze both into my Initiates - lucky number or otherwise.

I still dont see why you aren't taking both in your unit? If you want an anti tank unit make it anti tank. My bike squad has 2 melta guns and a powerfist. My two assault marine units both have a meltagun and a powerfist. One of my command squads has 4 meltaguns. You can't leave anything to chance.

[Renegade Paladin]

I still dont see why you aren't taking both in your unit?

Because he doesn't have enough points. Which he said.

[Psychotic]

Well, unless Ork player plays it smartly and allocates PF wounds into already wounded Nobz

I don't believe this is legal. I'm fairly certain that if there is an "Instant Death" causing wound in the bunch, you have to remove an entirely unwounded model.

[IthilanorStPete]

I don't believe this is legal. I'm fairly certain that if there is an "Instant Death" causing wound in the bunch, you have to remove an entirely unwounded model.

This is correct; the relevant rule is page 26 of the BRB, right column, last non-italicized paragraph.

[Tome]

I don't believe this is legal. I'm fairly certain that if there is an "Instant Death" causing wound in the bunch, you have to remove an entirely unwounded model.

Most 2 Wounds Infantry, IE Nobs and Paladins, have a lot of different wargear options. This means that each model in the unit tends to have unique equipment, making them each their own unique wound group and thus letting the player assign wounds how he likes, including Instant Death wounds.

Covered on pages 25 and 26 of the BBB.

TL;DR Version: Musical Wounds is still a thing.

[IthilanorStPete]

Most 2 Wounds Infantry, IE Nobs and Paladins, have a lot of different wargear options. This means that each model in the unit tends to have unique equipment, making them each their own unique wound group and thus letting the player assign wounds how he likes, including Instant Death wounds.

TL;DR Version: Musical Wounds is still a thing.

Even with musical wounds, according to the rule I cited, instant-kill wounds go on unwounded models before the rest of the wounds are allocated.

[Tome]

Even with musical wounds, according to the rule I cited, instant-kill wounds go on unwounded models before the rest of the wounds are allocated.

Wound allocation, and the rules for complex units on the previous page, still applies. Read it through again, remembering that most of the models are going to be different, they specifically address that.

Specifically, the second paragraph specifies identical models, whilst the third deal with different models. You allocate before you roll, and therefore before the wound takes effect.

The forth paragraph further specifies identical models.

Sixth paragraph includes this bit. Emphasis mine.

If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal (this is done for each group of identical multiple-wound models).

Lemme give an example. Say a unit of two Paladins takes two power fist wounds. Each model has a different weapon, a Nemesis Force Sword and a Nemesis Warding Stave, with the Sword Paladin already having taken one wound. If I stick one PF wound on each of them and the Sword Paladin fails his save but the Stave Paladin passes his, the the wound doesn't suddenly jump onto the Stave Paladin.

[Ninjaman]

With a Power Fist, the Nob unit would have been missing 1 additional model (from the charge) and then one more per turn thereafter, as well as the ones inflicted by the ordinary Marines. And of the two units engaged in the fight, only my guys aren't allowed to run away....

Simply put, killing 4 more Nobz before the Marines are inevitably crushed and then leaving them a weakened target for the next unit of Marines/Predator Annihilator *is* a victory for me. I don't expect one guy with a Power Fist to win a game for me, but I know from experience that they'll turn the tide in a single melee quite easily.

You were fearless, that changes a bit.

...But Phil Kelly wrote Dark Eldar...He also wrote Space Wolves. I'm still yet to see anything scarier than 4 Rune Priests and 3 sets of Long Fangs. Jaws, Living Lightning, Jaws, Living Lightning...15 Missiles.

Isn't jaws only good vs tyranids (and they have defence)

[Cheesegear]

Isn't jaws only good vs tyranids (and they have defence)

No (and no).
Necrons are I2. Its always good to counter the flavour of the month.

Shadow goes 12". Jaws goes 24".
If Jaws doesn't work (for whatever reason) just shoot stuff with Long Fangs.

[One Step Two]

So, what do you guys think about Ghosts ark? Im thining in something like Imotek and 2 ghots arks full of necron warriors.
While Lighting destroy enemy's unit, I just keep moving until im close enough to rapid fire. and BOOM!
Also wraiths are pretty cool, and monolith can be viable.

Do you guys have any thought about this? or any improved list?

Something everyone should know:

Ghost arks: Are Awesome!

Thanks to being Open-topped and carrying two Gauss Flux Arrays it, along with the unit inside, can fire at upto 3 different targets.
Quantum shielding makes it pretty resilliant to boot. (On front and side arcs anyway)

What makes it even more nifty? Is the fact it resurrects warrior units either inside or within 6" of it. I don't have the codex on hand to confirm, but this ability does not need LoS. Park a unit inside cover, and keep the Arc out of LoS, and your opponent will be hard pressed to flush them out, at range atleast.

Of course, if you're opponent knows how good they are, expect them to be priority targets.

[Borgh]

Sadly I think the model sucks. I'm going to try modelling it like the Doomsday ark but hanging the warriors inside. (which incidentally should let me magnetize the Big Gun in place)

thread 14: as close as we will get to 41 in a while?

[Squark]

Something everyone should know:

Ghost arks: Are Awesome!

Thanks to being Open-topped and carrying two Gauss Flux Arrays it, along with the unit inside, can fire at upto 3 different targets.
Quantum shielding makes it pretty resilliant to boot. (On front and side arcs anyway)

What makes it even more nifty? Is the fact it resurrects warrior units either inside or within 6" of it. I don't have the codex on hand to confirm, but this ability does not need LoS. Park a unit inside cover, and keep the Arc out of LoS, and your opponent will be hard pressed to flush them out, at range atleast.

Of course, if you're opponent knows how good they are, expect them to be priority targets.

Huh. interesting...

[filvento]

Something everyone should know:

Ghost arks: Are Awesome!

Thanks to being Open-topped and carrying two Gauss Flux Arrays it, along with the unit inside, can fire at upto 3 different targets.
Quantum shielding makes it pretty resilliant to boot. (On front and side arcs anyway)

What makes it even more nifty? Is the fact it resurrects warrior units either inside or within 6" of it. I don't have the codex on hand to confirm, but this ability does not need LoS. Park a unit inside cover, and keep the Arc out of LoS, and your opponent will be hard pressed to flush them out, at range atleast.

Of course, if you're opponent knows how good they are, expect them to be priority targets.

Yea, This ghsot arks are Awesome. Im planning taking 2 of them full of warriors. But, anyway, they need a good Strategy, since.. yea.. they rez warriors, but if warriors are inside theres no point. If you get a nice position you could get warriors down for rapidfire and keep rezing them. The thing is that if ARK is LOS it cant shot its gauss cannons. Still.. if any ork or a melee race wants to charge in warriors, you just get them up and RUN! its pretty nasty strat. I was thinking on playing this with the MONOLITH too.. making some nasty thnigs. And monolith LARGE BLAST S9 AP1 ALL TURNS!

I love the new necron codex.. This is going to be so fun.

[banjo1985]

I'm yet to be convinced on the Ghost Ark, though I won't judge it until I've fully understood the codex and the options available. It's a lot of points to spend on an occasional troop ressurector, and while being able to fire at three targets is nice, none of it's weapons are too scary and to get decent targets for all three guns you're going to be putting the thing deep in harms way. Just having the option for a troop transport is amazing though, and it can at least dish out a bit of hurt in the right circumstances.

I like the new Annihalation/Command Barge model, and the rules for both units too. A Warscythe wielding Overlord divebombing tanks across the board fills me with glee, as does the big Tesla Cannon on the Annihalator. I pause before I say thsi too, but the kit is actually awesome value too. It's easy to build so it fits both unit types, and you get a foot Overlord essentially for free. GW's prices are usually laughable, but that kit is genuinely money well spent.

I guess that's evened up by the price of the transport Ark's though.

[filvento]

I'm yet to be convinced on the Ghost Ark, though I won't judge it until I've fully understood the codex and the options available. It's a lot of points to spend on an occasional troop ressurector, and while being able to fire at three targets is nice, none of it's weapons are too scary and to get decent targets for all three guns you're going to be putting the thing deep in harms way. Just having the option for a troop transport is amazing though, and it can at least dish out a bit of hurt in the right circumstances.

I like the new Annihalation/Command Barge model, and the rules for both units too. A Warscythe wielding Overlord divebombing tanks across the board fills me with glee, as does the big Tesla Cannon on the Annihalator. I pause before I say thsi too, but the kit is actually awesome value too. It's easy to build so it fits both unit types, and you get a foot Overlord essentially for free. GW's prices are usually laughable, but that kit is genuinely money well spent.

I guess that's evened up by the price of the transport Ark's though.

Dont forget that The ghost arks is thill a way to transportate your warriors.
Its pretty cool to get your warriors near and just Rapid fire everything.
And it has 13 / 13 / 11 Until it gets a penetrate hit. And a 13 is not THAT easy to penetrate.

About the Barge, i still dont understand the Catacomb one. Its 3 sweep atacks to the same Unit/Vehicle?
It costs 80 points and you still need a character with a warschyte. I dont know what would that be.. since characters are expensive. And if you are playing arks you have to play imotek.