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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    The rules in Apocalypse replace those in IA4 for the Heirophant.

    The Harridan isn't a flyer in game terms (ie type) so can be targeted normally. It moves more like super jump infantry.

    From a more practical consideration the Heirophant is said to be one of the hardest Forge World kits to assemble and paint, so there's that too.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    That was sort of a failed gamble on the part of your opponent - he could have activated a psychic power to give all of his terminators enough Strength to wound it, but he probably wanted to save up his psychic power use for activating his force weapons instead.
    He was new, didn't have a librarian, and (as far as i could tell) we'd forgone rules for activating force weapons

    (also, i used my Farseer's psychic powers, but i left them out of the report because i can't remember most of them - i do remember re-rolling to wounds on the brother-captain's terminators last turn - fat lot of good it did me.)
    Last edited by HalfTangible; 2011-08-01 at 10:07 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    He was new, didn't have a librarian, and (as far as i could tell) we'd forgone rules for activating force weapons
    Grey Knights all have psychic powers. No need for a Librarian to be around. For starters, pretty much every single Grey Knight choice - Terminators, Strike Squads (=Tacticals), Interception Squads (=Assaults), all of them have a power that gives them all +1S - enough to give them the Strength to wound a Wraithlord.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Grey Knights all have psychic powers. No need for a Librarian to be around. For starters, pretty much every single Grey Knight choice - Terminators, Strike Squads (=Tacticals), Interception Squads (=Assaults), all of them have a power that gives them all +1S - enough to give them the Strength to wound a Wraithlord.
    This is why you never forget your magic hat. Nothing annoys a grey knight player like someone with a psychic hood, a CSM or Blood Angel Librarian whose leadership equals theirs (Dark Angels only get LS9...) or, indeed a Rune Priest whose rolling is better than theirs on the day.

    It's a thing of beauty when attempts to stack hammerhand on top of Might of Titan fail so very badly due to a 100 point model nestling comfortably in a unit.
    Last edited by Timberwolf; 2011-08-01 at 12:39 PM.


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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
    This is why you never forget your magic hat. Nothing annoys a grey knight player like someone with a psychic hood, a CSM or Blood Angel Librarian whose leadership equals theirs (Dark Angels only get LS9...) or, indeed a Rune Priest whose rolling is better than theirs on the day.

    It's a thing of beauty when attempts to stack hammerhand on top of Might of Titan fail so very badly due to a 100 point model nestling comfortably in a unit.
    Psychic Hoods aren't so bad. It's Farseers that make GK players want to tear their hair out. Runes of Warding killed more of my Knights than enemy fire did in one game of mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    He was new, didn't have a librarian, and (as far as i could tell) we'd forgone rules for activating force weapons
    Except for the Assassins and Henchmen, every unit in the GK Codex is a Psyker. All of them. Including the vehicles. And most of them come with Force Weapons as standard.

    I'm not sure what you mean by forgoing the rules for activating Force Weapons.
    Last edited by Tome; 2011-08-01 at 02:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    Except for the Assassins and Henchmen, every unit in the GK Codex is a Psyker. All of them. Including the vehicles. And most of them come with Force Weapons as standard.

    I'm not sure what you mean by forgoing the rules for activating Force Weapons.
    'Forego' means to get rid of. We ignored them. Out of ignorance of them, mind, but still! xD
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    'Forego' means to get rid of. We ignored them. Out of ignorance of them, mind, but still! xD
    I was confused as to whether you simply ignored Force Weapons altogether, treated them as regular Power Weapons or just ignored the rules for activating them and had them work without a roll.

    Either way can seriously alter the effectiveness of GKs Vs. Wraithlords.

    I am well aware of the meaning of the word, but the precise implementation when dealing with a codex composed almost entirely of Force Weapon wielders is a bit ambiguous.
    Last edited by Tome; 2011-08-01 at 03:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    I am a bit surprised a unit of Banshee's couldnt do more against a unit of Doomed terminators though?
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I am a bit surprised a unit of Banshee's couldnt do more against a unit of Doomed terminators though?
    So was i. I just assumed I botched the rolls.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by FireJustice View Post
    The Harridan cost only 900 points, has two str10 assault 6 guns, its a flyer, can even carry a brood of gargoyles. And there's a formation that you can use to block the sun (always cool, huh?)
    Harridans are bad. You're paying an attack and 200 points to make a Barbed Hierodule flying. The Hierophant is pretty meh with it's T9 2+/6++, but the Harridan with its T8 3+ is just fodder for missiles.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanoi View Post
    The Hierophant is pretty meh with it's T9 2+/6++
    Strictly speaking, the Heirophant doesn't even have the 6+ Invulnerable. Since where the 6+ Invulnerable comes from is no in print, and therefore no longer valid if a new print is available - which it is (similar to IA4 and Apocalypse/5th Ed. Tyranids). That said, it doesn't have a 3+ Invulnerable either, since, yes, the rules stipulate Psychic Power, and that's not a thing, and/or is Zoanthrope-specific.

    Yes, I know this was brought up a page or so ago, but I went and got it clarified, and it turns out neither 3+ or 6+ is correct ("A new Codex is now in print and makes all previous irrelevant."). Still, if anyone tells you a T9, 10 Wound Gargantuan with Regeneration is an easy kill - with or without an Invulnerable - you can safely call that person an idiot.

    I suppose if you wanted to cut it from 1250 to a flat 1000 points, this would probably be the way to convince your opponent to let you. Although your opponent would be a very silly person to believe a 6+ Invulnerable is worth 250 points. 3+? Maybe. But mostly because a Gargantuan can't be affected by Null Zone.

    Also, the Heirophant loses an attack (oh no! Not 7 attacks!) and starts re-rolling 1s To Hit in Assault (which is way better, considering the number of attacks)...If you want it to be in Assault, that is. And, having just re-read Toxic Miasma, and then stacking it with the Heirodule's Spore Cloud...Why not?

    Speaking of Apocalypse;
    Who wants to tell me the actual difference between Imperial Armour - Apocalypse, and Warhammer 40,000 - Apocalypse? I assume the Harridan is in the former, as is Stonecrusher Carnifecies and Scythed Heirodules. Anything else? More importantly, is there anything in it that I want?

    Also, what's in IA-Apocalypse II?
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2011-08-02 at 02:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Blood Angels v2

    Special Rules
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    And They Shall Know No Fear;
    Meh, without Combat Tactics this rule becomes a lot less good. Especially so because The Red Thirst (below) can override it. Still, this Codex, being Blood Angels, not being able to be Sweeping Advanced if you lose Assault is still very good.

    Combat Squads;
    You wont use it very much.

    Descent of Angels;
    This rule is nice...If you want to use it. If you don't want to use this rule, it'll be absolutely useless. Unfortunately, this sentiment will be seen a couple more times in regards to this army list.

    The Red Thirst
    This rule...Kind of sucks. Most Blood Angels lists will field Priests, and thus you get Furious Charge anyway. And Fearless? If you have to gain Fearless at the cost of ATSKNF, it's pretty bad. Since when you have ATSKNF, you can at least try to run away from a losing Assault.
    However, in pure Assault-lists that like to foot-slog or Jump without Transports, Fearless is nice because you're going to get shot at.

    Second, it's totally random. Which can be really annoying when your Assault Squad doesn't get Furious Charge and Fearless, and then your Devastators do get it on the next roll.


    HQ
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    Librarians;
    Cheap and come with a Psychic Hood. Lovely.
    Blood Boil: Looks better than it actually is.
    Fear The Darkness: Doesn't work on Fearless units. Which, sadly, is a good deal of things.
    Might of Heroes: Good for a solo Librarian. But, you shouldn't be doing that, and weight of attacks should be done by the squad who is following him around.
    Shackle Soul: Like Blood Boil, looks good on paper. Occasionally saves your bacon, but more often just makes your opponent get annoyed by having to stop the flow of play every time he needs to do something. Which, I suppose is a plus.
    Shield of Sanguinius: This is very nice. Especially when you're not in a Transport. And merely 'okay' when you are, since most Transports come with Smoke Launchers for a slightly better effect.
    Smite: It's not that wonderful under Codex Marines and it's even less good here.
    Blood Lance: Amazing or terrible. Depending on dice rolls and who your opponent is.
    Sanguine Sword: Used to kill tanks or MCs, I guess. But isn't that what Melta Bombs or the Sergeant-with-Power Fist next to you is for?
    Unleash Rage: Brilliant! Especially since you're an Assault army.
    Wings of Sanguinius: A 25-point Jump Pack makes this redundant. Can be useful for a Librarian on a Bike though.

    This author's picks are Shield of Sanguinius and Unleash Rage.

    Reclusiarchs;
    Basically the squad he's in becomes Fearless (take that Red Thirst!) and makes everything Hit better. With Death Company, they also Wound better.
    His Wargear choices aren't that spectacular, but, he comes with a Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol to start.

    If you look closely, he's only 15 more points than a Captain with the same Wargear with 1 less Weapon Skill. But you're re-rolling To Hit, so, yeah.

    Captain;
    Unfortunately, it's true. The 'leader' of a Blood Angels army just isn't that good. He can walk around in Terminator Armour and get some pretty decent Wargear to go with it. But, you're playing Blood Angels. Is a Terminator Captain really what you want? Just about anything other than that and you're better off with a Reclusiarch for the same job.

    Otherwise, take a look at the special characters. Which will follow. If you already have a Captain model, unfortunately, you may need to turn it into a Sergeant model or make your own 'Count As' special character...Don't never use good models if they still look cool!

    Honour Guard;
    You get a Priest to go with them, which is pretty cool. If you give them Jump Packs, they come to 165 Points, which isn't too shabby, considering they have two attacks each and come with a free Priest.

    You can kit them out like Vanguard (more on that later), but, the problem is that they aren't Vanguard. Honour Guard are a little bit tricky to use, since there are a couple of similar units throughout the Codex.

    They are, however, one of the few good units that Blood Angels have that might want to go in a Drop Pod. You can kit them out with Flamers or Meltaguns - or Plasmaguns, considering the free Priest and the FNP - and have them drop down in the first turn and kill something hopefully valuable.

    I guess the most important thing about Honour Guard is to keep them cheap. Otherwise, there are those other, better units that I mentioned that can probably do the job for less points.


    Elites
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    Chaplain;
    Pretty much a small-scale Reclusiarch, for the same points as a Captain. Still, it's taking your Elite slot, which, outside of specialised army-builds, isn't exactly the best idea. Just go with a Reclusiarch to begin with.

    Sanguinary Guard;
    A single unit is pretty bad. They're basically generalist units with decent guns, decent swords and the ability to attract fire like nobody's business. Without a Stormraven (below), or Dante (discussed later), these guys wont do a whole lot of good. They are shiny though. And, unfortunately a Newbie trap.

    Furioso Dreadnought;
    Take as many as these guys as you can. Frag Cannons are nice for walking or Podding Dreads. Blood Talons are good for when you're flying in style with a Stormraven. Magna-Grapples are usually must-have items regardless of whatever else you're doing. Heavy Flamers are always a plus over Storm Bolters.

    Swap everything for a Librarian Dreadnought;
    Generally good, although the HQ Librarians are cheaper. But, if for whatever reason you're not taking an HQ Librarian, definitely take at least one Librarian Dread. Psychic Hoods are just that good.

    Might of Heroes: Dreadnoughts are solo characters. So, this can be helpful, but probably not the best thing you could do. Just go with a regular Furioso with Talons.
    Shield of Sanguinius: Smoke Launchers.
    Blood Lance: Very good on a Drop Podding Dread since you can position yourself in a good spot on Turn 1, and you don't have Meltaguns like a regular Dread.
    Sanguine Sword: You've already got one Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon. Don't bother. Against non-vehicles switch to the S6 Force Weapon. And, no. You can't use the DCCW and the Force Weapon at the same time. There are rules for having two different Assault weapons.
    Unleash Rage: He doesn't run around with a squad, and he's already WS6. He'll be fine without this.
    Wings of Sanguinius: Dreadnoughts are slow without 'Ravens or 'Pods. This helps.

    This author's picks are Blood Lance and Wings of Sanguinius. If you have a way to get him where he needs to be quicker, swap Wings for Might of Heroes.

    Terminator Squad;
    Sanguinary Guard cost the exact same points, can fly and Sweeping Advance.

    Terminator Assault Squad;
    Furiosos cost less, and can ride in Stormravens. Like I mentioned under the Captain entry; Terminators are not typically what you play Blood Angels for, and, unfortunately, the Codex agrees.

    Techmarine;
    If you run a lot of Dreadnoughts, or want to run a lot of Predators and Razorbacks, this guy can help. He does use up your Elite slots. Handy when you need him, useless when you don't.

    Sternguard Veterans;
    Not much can be said about these guys that you wont quickly find out by asking any forum. A popular build with them is Suicide Sternguard, which works in Codex Marines, and works here, now. Basically slap a bunch of Combi-Meltas in a Drop Pod and let them do their thing.

    Unfortunately, your Blood Angel Elite slots are typically reserved for Sanguinary Priests (I've mentioned them a few times now, for good reason) and as many slots as you can fill with Furioso/Librarian Dreadnoughts. However, remember when I was talking about Honour Guard? This is basically what this squad can be, without taking your valuable Elite slots. And, I'm sorry New Kid, but your Elite slots in a Blood Angels army are actually quite valuable.

    Sanguinary Priests;
    Most people who play Blood Angels, secretly only have two Elite slots and at least 100 points less than they actually have when list-building. Because of Sanguinary Priests. Everyone within 6" of them gets Feel No Pain and Furious Charge. Everyone. for 50 points. Typically Priests occasionally get left in 'Ravens to make their area of effect larger, but, not always.

    Anyway, Priests are really, really good. Nearly all Blood Angel players should have at least one for every two units in their army. And, remember the Honour Guard? They come with a 'free' one.

    Corbulo is over-priced. Sad face.


    Troops
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    Tactical Squads;
    Again, not really what you want to play Blood Angels for, since both Codex Marines and Space Wolves have play-styles that suit them better. But, sometimes, it's always nice to have one squad to sit back in your Deployment Zone to fire bullets and stay in cover.

    Death Company;
    For the most part, a Newbie Trap. The only good reason to take them is access to Death Company Dreadnoughts (below). Never take a non-multiple of five, and only take that many if you can also take as many Dreadnoughts as that allows.
    Death Company. Need. Transports. Due to their Rage, they'll almost never have a cover save, so don't worry about getting those. But, importantly, units inside Transports are unaffected by said Rage, which is an enourmous plus because you'll no longer be chasing around Land Speeders. Also, similar to Sanguinary Guard, without a Transport, they tend to attract bullets.
    Due to Relentless, they are almost always better with Boltguns. Is it thematic? Not really. But it's very good.
    They've also got Feel No Pain and Furious Charge. Well, sure, I guess. But, 5 Death Company (because you also want Dreadnoughts) is 100 points. So is two Sanguinary Priests, which makes everything FNP and Furious Charge. So, don't fall into that trap.

    5 with Jump Packs in Stormraven. Add Dreadnought.
    10 in Rhino.
    15 in Land Raider. Use trip-Dreadnoughts to LoS Block.

    There's not a lot to say about Death Company. Well, they're not Scoring, but, that doesn't really make much of a difference since due to Rage they couldn't sit on an objective if they tried.

    Lemartes is very, very good. But he's also very, very expensive.

    Death Company're not that great. But, if you really like them, see the section on Astorath.

    Death Company Dreadnoughts;
    Take as many as you're allowed. They also need Transports, whether it be Drop Pods or Stormravens, they should be in them. Unless you have a one-two punch that goes hand-in-hand with a Land Raider full of Death Company.

    Scout Squads;
    Yeah, you really do need something that can hold an objective. And Scouts are cheaper than Tactical Squads. They can also pack Sniper Rifles which is handy against Monstrous Creatures.
    Unlike Codex Marines, Scouts don't have the option to obtain Fleet or have access to Land Speeder Storms, so, 'Combat Scouts' are not really a good option, despite the fact that you are Blood Angels. Besides, you have other combat units...

    Assault Squads;
    Hopefully, these are the reason you want to play Blood Angels, right? No? You want to field the shiny gold guys or the black-and-red guys? Huh, well...Moving on! Pretty much everything in the Codex is designed to make these particular guys, better at what they do. Slice 'n' Dice.

    Always take 10. They'll need it. Twin Flamers and Meltaguns are always a solid choice. But, you are Space Marines with FNP (Priests!), so, Plasmaguns are also a good pick too.
    Terrain and Assault Squads don't usually mix, so, once again, there's that Priest again with his FNP! Other than that, Librarians also like to give these guys Unleash Rage and Shield of Sanguinius (because sometimes you don't intentionally jump into terrain...).
    Like I said; Solid choice to a Blood Angels army. Unless...

    You want to take transports. Now, remember, the cost doesn't scale. So, no matter how many models you take, the reduction is always -35 points. The most cost-effective choice is Razorbacks. It's up to you, really. In currency terms, a second box of 5 Assault Marines, and a Razorback cost the same. So, you, New Kid, aren't really wasting any of your money by picking one over the other.
    Popular Razorback weapons are the Heavy Flamer, or the Twin-Linked Plasmagun and Lascannon. However, neither of those come packaged with the box. Although, that being said, Meltaguns, Plasmaguns and Flamers don't come packaged with Assault Marines either. /sigh. Unfortunately, this Guide can't help you with that.

    But, having said that, having a 'free' Drop Pod land where you want it to with Meltaguns or Flamers inside isn't terrible. Besides, you can't choose Land Raiders individually, and if you like lots of Land Raiders, then Assault Squads are probably the best place to get them.

    Unfortunately for everyone involved, for you, for your opponent, for me having to tell you; If you have one Assault Squad, you kind of need more. Whichever way you want to kit them out. You're kind of stuck with cookie cutting and painting a lot of the same model...But, you're playing a Space Marines army, so that'd happen anyway.


    An aside for Drop Pods
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    Due to the way Descent of Angels works, any time you would have more than one Drop Pod, or, any Drop Pods that don't land on the first turn, you're probably better off with a unit that has Descent of Angels. The re-rolls to Reserves means they get on the board sooner, and less Scatter, means...Well less Scatter. I know Inertial Guidance is good and all, and your unit wont crash and die when it hits terrain, but, even so, a 12" Scatter is still a 12" Scatter.

    But, anyway, that all comes back to if you want to use DoA, then do so. Otherwise don't.


    Fast Attack
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    Vanguard;
    A lot of the hate directed towards these guys is a carry-over from Codex Marines, where the Codex they were in wasn't designed to support them. Blood Angels, on the other hand, are different.
    For one, BA Vanguard are slightly cheaper which is good. And Descent of Angels means the Vanguard are more likely to show up when you need them and they wont fly halfway across the board where they can't use Heroic Intervention. That being said, due to Heroic Intervention, they are one of the most useful units in the book if you want to use Descent of Angels to it's fullest.

    The bad, Vanguard are still expensive. 'Less expensive' than Space Marines, but still expensive. Less is more. Now, the average unit might have a Sergeant with a Power Weapon, which usually means between two and three attacks are going to connect with your men. To this end, you want to equip two or three Vanguard with Storm Shields just for Wound Allocation. Now, New Kid, you might not know what that is, but it'll be important when you learn more about the game.
    Other than that, use your best judgement; Or copy and paste this. Power Fist. Really, that's it.

    Important: When gluing your models together, don't give the guy with the Power Fist a Storm Shield, nor give one to your Sergeant. Again, this has to do with Wound Allocation. But still.

    Hopefully if you do it right, your Vanguard wont be shooting a whole lot, and if they are, it's probably by accident. To that end, your models will be awesome if you replace the Bolt Pistol with your Storm Shields. And that way you end up keeping the chainswords. No, it doesn't really have an effect on how your models play (a pistol counts as a Close Combat Weapon anyway), but, WYSIWYG is a real thing and Chainsword + Shield is awesome. Anyway, like I said, you shouldn't be shooting much anyway and a couple of pistol round aren't going to make that much of a difference.
    Besides, everyone knows that Awesome Models play better.

    PROTIP: The shield in the Assault Squad sprue (of which you've bought lots of, right? Because you're Blood Angels) is actually a Storm Shield, not a Combat Shield. There is no weapon in the hand like the one that comes in the Command Squad box. Besides, there's a couple of pictures in the various Imperial Armour books that says that that's what a Power Armoured Storm Shield looks like.

    Anyway, back to Vanguard. You shouldn't really be needing more than five models in the unit. Use them wisely and they'll work. They are a small squad so don't go biting off more than they can chew - like Terminators. Their targets are generally small, shooty units like Devastators and Dark Reapers. When you start taking more than 5 models in the unit...Space Marines can do it better due to access to different things, but, after 5 models, you're probably better off going with one of the other small, Jump Pack equipped unit that the Codex is full of.

    Land Speeders;
    Yeah. Good. Just about any set up is 'good'. But, you're not playing with a guy called He'Stan so none of them really stand out above the others except for what the rest of your army is doing. If you need them, great. If you don't, useless.

    Baal Predators;
    Basically Predators that cheat. They're fast, and they pack weapons that make use of that speed (Flamestorm Cannons), and they don't take up Heavy Support slots and compete with...Other things.

    Attack Bikes;
    See Land Speeders. Or Bikes...

    Bikes;
    Good when you need them, bad when you don't. Bikes move 12" a turn. The majority of your army moves 12" a turn too, except these guys come with T5 and Twin-Linked Bolters. They're a useful alternative when all your Assault Squads are in vehicles, but otherwise...Why not just more Assault Squads that are Scoring?

    Scout Bikes;
    Infiltrating, Scouting Locator Beacons. Useful for your first turn Drop Pod, or later in the game for your Descent of Angels. Otherwise, yeah, you guessed it. Do you need them? Yes? Great. No? Terrible.


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    Dreadnoughts;
    Cheap fire support. Do you need them? On the other hand, what if you want to play with 11 Dreadnoughts? You can!

    Stormravens;
    Costly? Yeah. Worth it? Yeah, that too. If you need them. If all your Jump Pack equipped squads are more than 6 models strong (or more than 5+Independent Character), then you're not going to need them much. Also Dreadnoughts.

    Predators;
    They're Fast, and you pay points for it too! Pity you're not going to use that speed a whole lot, and if you were, Baal Predators are better at it.

    Devastators;
    Yeah. Good. Do you need Stormravens? No? Take these instead.

    Vindicator;
    Fast Ordnance? Pretty fantastic. It's these or Devastators if you aren't using Stormravens.

    Whirlwinds;
    See Predators


    But I like Sanguinary Guard and Death Company!? Those things are what drew me to blood Angels in the first place!
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    Dante
    He's actually pretty reasonable on his own. But, obviously, his real benefit comes in when playing with Sanguinary Guard. Sanguinary Guards' ability to take lots of Infernus Pistols, as well as Dante's ability to land exactly where he needs to is very, very good. Enter Dante's Inferno...Yeah, that reference has been around for more than 15 years. If you're only just getting it now, feel free to bang your head into a wall.

    See, unlike Meltaguns, Pistols only have a 6" range, and a 3" Super Effective range, and trying to Deep Strike that close to something is usually a recipe for failure. So, Dante makes Sanguinary Guard not terrible.

    From there, Sanguinary Guard are Troops. Take at least two more units of them. Unfortunately, Sanguinary Guard are pretty terrible without Stormravens, so you need those too. And, for added bonus, because Sanguinary Guard are no longer taking up Elite slots, you can take Furiosos and Librarian Dreads too!

    Unfortunately for new players, this list can not be scaled down because everything in it is pretty much un-take-outable. It easily runs into the 1500+ point mark. So, if you really, really, really want the shiny gold guys, buy lots and start early.

    Astorath;
    This list is all about spamming those Death Company.

    Remember how Death Company get Fearless, Furious Charge and FNP for free? Well, you don't need Priests or Red Thirst rolls, so that's a plus. Also, it's a bit of a kick in the pants when you realise that one of Astorath's abilities is redundant in his own list.

    Now, you want three units of Death Company, because three units. Any less than that and you're shooting yourself in the foot. Equip one unit with Jump Packs and whatever weapons you like, grab a Stormraven and a DC Dread, and go from there. This, here, is really the only part of the list that can't change.

    The rest, totally scales because Death Company don't need Jump Packs, so they don't need to ride in a Stormraven. If you want to keep it cheap, 5 in a Razorback works. 10 in a Rhino works too, the plus side? The Razorback and the Rhino are the same tank! You don't need to spend more money.
    Still, you can put 10 in a Stormraven too. More? Land Raiders.

    The list scales. The more models you want? The bigger your tanks get!

    And, still, we're not losing the DC Dreads. Now, typically you want your 6 Troops slots to be 3:3 to DC and DC Dreads. If you are running Stormravens, great. If not, Drop Pods.

    After that? Well, after you've got your first fifteen Death Company models (for three Dreads), it doesn't quite matter after that. If you need to have 9 models in a Rhino to fit a Chaplain/Reclusiarch into the vehicle (hint, hint), you can do that. Because, in this list, you're not using Priests, and you can fill those slots with Chaplains and Reclusiarchs. You can get three (including Astorath) into any suitably large army because you have three Death Company units and that's what you want. Just make sure you have the minimum 15.

    Then, because you're Dread-spamming (minimum three), and you still don't have a Librarian (your HQs are Astorath +/- a second Reclusiarch), you can fit Librarian Dreads into your Elite slots because they have Psychic Hoods and those're brilliant.

    Again, this army is something that needs to be built from the ground up. You can't start half your army, then suddenly decide to do this one because what're you going to do with all the models you're no longer using? Still, this army is slightly easier than the Dante army since you're not splurging for the $100 Stormravens from the start. Well, the one. But what about first-turn Melta Drops? Well, if your Dreads aren't doing it for you, there's always Honour Guard.

    If you feel like you're losing a lot with this army, it's probably because you are! This army has no Scoring units. If you feel comfortable about it, you can drop a Dreadnought or two for some Home-scoring Scout squads.

    Anyway, Astorath scales. Dante doesn't.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2011-08-02 at 08:15 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    IA:A updates a lot of units from the older IA books to be in line with the Apocalypse ruleset. And apparently they're updating it again, to IA:A 2E, so the Hierophant might get an all new data sheet anyway.

    IA:A2 (which is a different book from the forthcoming IA:A 2E), was the same concept, it just had rules for a different batch of FW models.
    Last edited by Tren; 2011-08-02 at 07:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Nice job as always, Cheesegear. Quite insightful. Thank you for your effort.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2011-08-02 at 07:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    If I recall, you do welcome input on any guides you've created so I thought I'd post a few thoughts and opinions on what you've posted.

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    I would just add that Sanguine Sword has a few more uses than that, namely AV14. It's just that little more certain for decking Land Raiders. It also goes at Initiative value, meaning that hopefully you can put a hurting on a MC for the Powerfist wielding Sarge to finish it off therefore speeding up the process of dealing with it. Also, for the most part, the squad that is hopefully rolling with the Librarian should be enough to deal with anything that isn't a MC or vehicle. Being able to land the equivalent of 3 Vindicator shots is well worth it

    Shield of Sanguinius is really useful, as you said. Ok, smoke launchers give you +4, but as long as you have a Librarian, you can keep pulling it out wheras Smoke launchers only go once. It also means you can shoot and still have a cover save.


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    Death Company, I'll agree with you for the most part, but there are ways and means of getting more out of them. Timing is the most important thing about letting your Death Company go do its thing. Letting them go uncontrolled too early is asking for them to be ineffective wheras holding them back... speaks for itself. Pick your target, drive your transport over and let them out. Yes, never take in units of a non multiple of 5 unless you need to fill up points and have less than 100 points available. However, as a squad assassin (ie for dealing with a small, high value squad or a vehicle or suchlike), these lads can do very well as long as you bring at least a powerfist along.

    You keep these raving idiots in the Stormraven until you can either point them at a fight they will win or you really, really need them. Without a Transport, footslogging Death Company are a newbie trap. With a Drop pod, they are right where they need to be on turn 1 and with a Librarian present, you stand a chance of keeping them (Shield of Sanguinius is wonderful). With a Stormraven, they really come into their own and very rarely let me down. 5 is all you need for the most part. Jump packs are an interesting thing, they reduce the likelyhood of playing chase the Eldar (CAN WE CATCH THEM !? *To the tune of Bob the Buiklder...*) but since you are keeping them in the gunship until you need them, aren't you... there's no chance of getting suckered by this before the lads in black have done what you brought them for.


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    Talon Furiosos are good substitutes for DC Dreads if you don't have enough boys in black along. They have one less attack which is bad, but a higher WS, which is good. They also have FA 13 which is good but lose fleet, which is bad. They also lose the ability to ignore stunned and shaken and Furious Charge although they are also impossible to sucker into playing Chase the Landspeeder as they also lose Rage. Generally speaking, if you want to hold down the number of Death Company in an army but want more Talon action (and who doesn't) then these boys are the way to go. They're a bit more fiddly as you can't fleet, but they also can't be manipulated through Rage.
    Last edited by Timberwolf; 2011-08-02 at 09:56 AM.


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  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    You can only take ONE unit of death company...
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    You can only take ONE unit of death company...
    ... unless you take Astorath and then, the skys the limit. you can take up to 120 Death company models (6 squads of 20, it may even be more, I vaguely remember that it's squads of 30 max although I am away from Codex right now) if you have the points as long as you take Astorath.

    GW's suggested Astorath, 4 DC squads, 2 DCD list
    Last edited by Timberwolf; 2011-08-02 at 09:54 AM.


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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Speaking of Apocalypse;
    Who wants to tell me the actual difference between Imperial Armour - Apocalypse, and Warhammer 40,000 - Apocalypse? I assume the Harridan is in the former, as is Stonecrusher Carnifecies and Scythed Heirodules. Anything else? More importantly, is there anything in it that I want?

    Also, what's in IA-Apocalypse II?
    40k: A is "Here's how you play Apocalypse, and some units to go with it."
    IA: A is "Here's some units to go with Apocalypse, and some that don't."

    The Big Squiggoth is fairly notable; there's not much better than it for 50 points. Unfortunately it also takes a Heavy Support choice, so uh. But it's also got the Scythed Heirodule/Harridan and the Stone-crusher Carnifex, along with the Malanthrope if you like that sort of thing..

    IA: A2's notable units include the Lucius Pattern Drop Pod and the Hades Breaching Drill. Both of which are overpowered as all hell. There's others, but those are the most egregious. It also contains zero Tyranids/DE/Necrons.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    There's also "Apocalypse Reload" which tends to be formations- including Necron ones.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Apocalypse Reloaded also has nift strategic assets, including army exclusive ones

    Imperial Armour Apocalypse (I & II) also give FoC slots to all those models in case you want to play with titans/gargantuans but not apocalypse (wierd huh?)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by FireJustice View Post
    Imperial Armour Apocalypse (I & II) also give FoC slots to all those models in case you want to play with titans/gargantuans but not apocalypse (wierd huh?)
    Not so much the titans, but the smaller stuff (say, fliers, or any other model Forge World has produced that is not insanely huge, such as Tau XV-9)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    IA:A II is a bit of a waste if you have or are planning on getting the other IA books as all but three or four of the units/formations in there are reprints.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    2 questions.

    1. What does the "Without Number" formation require/do?

    2. If a squad of hormagaunts were in range of an enemys synapse creature synapse what would happen? Would you retain control, would THEY retain control, would you have to have a psyker duel over them? Actually that last one sounds pretty cool.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    I don't have an answer to question one, but the answer to number two is absolutely nothing. Synapse only counts for your own tyranids.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Grey Knights question: are Apothecaries in Paladins really worth it? Cheesegear referred to FNP-Paladins a while back, when talking about things to be prepared for in competitive play or some such. However, it seems like a waste to spend 130 points on a single model just to grant FNP to a unit that seems like it's going to be drawing fire from missiles, Vindicators, LR Battle Tanks, and other FNP-denying things anyways. Am I off base in my intuition - is there some reason FNP is actually really useful on Paladins?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Quote Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete View Post
    it seems like a waste to spend 130 points on a single model just to grant FNP to a unit that seems like it's going to be drawing fire from missiles, Vindicators, LR Battle Tanks, and other FNP-denying things anyways.
    No, that's about right. I won't say FnP on Paladins is never useful, but as often as not the things that will be shooting them will ignore it to begin with, and in an army that's already tight on models it's an expensive upgrade.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    To be fair, it's actually "just" 75 points for the FNP - the rest is the cost of having another Paladin in the unit. And it protects from massed fire, like lasguns or bolters, which are another way of dealing with 2+ saves, after all. I agree though, probably very often not worth it.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    about whitout number, IIRC is a upgrade for units from 4th edition Nid codex

    by the way, all things from Apocalypse make references to this codex, so grab one if its cheap enough there.

    Found the codex in my bookshelf

    Anyway, basically any brood with 'without a number' that is removed from play may re-enter the table next turn from your table edge. keeping the same upgrades of course.

    Endless Swarm, huh?


    and I agree with Incomp on question number 2

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    Well, with the dawn of the new Sisters of Battle stuff in White Dwarf, seems that I'm getting back into the hobby! Long time no post, guys.

    Heading up to my FLGS this Saturday (I believe), to compete in a Trios tourney with my friend, Hootman (Whom I hear has been poking into these threads a tad), playing his Blood Angels, and my other friend, who plays 'nids. Should be fun.

    And after that, I'll be attempting to compete in the 'Ard Boyz prelims with Vulkan and my ladies. It's gonna be sweet.

    Anyone else prepping for anything? Thoughts on the new Sisters?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

    I had no idea they were coming out with new sisters stuff, ugggh.

    I've had an awful experience with Sisters, since I play Tyranids and the enemy just so happened to bring 2 exorcist tanks and a crap ton of flamethrower templates. Nothing but a group of Genestealers, my Trygon, and scattered bits of soldiers remained by turn 3. The exorcists one shotted my entire squad of warriors, instant deathing them all, and since they were my only Synapse creature in the game (Besides my Trygon Prime who was in reserves to deepstrike) so you can obviously guess how the rest of the game spiraled downwards from there. I managed to insta kill the exorcist tanks though on the turn my Trygon came, but he got stopped by a squad of sisters with cannoness who were getting faith points funneled into them to tie up combat.

    Still, I'll look out for it so I know how to properly get around them.

    Also I'm prepping to get into Apocolypse (And maybe try making an apocolypse game).
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