[PF] Ultimate Combat released to subscribers

[Curious]

...This guy's one of the best players I've ever known. He knows how to make ordinary melee classes outperform a CoDzilla or Batman Wizard.

No he does not. He's just not playing with CoDzilla or Batman.

[Fox Box Socks]

This has been mentioned elsewhere, but guns jamming on a natural 1/2 means that even with reload shenanigans, guns actually get worse the more attacks you have rather than better, since every shot you take is an increased chance of the gun jamming.

Really, I don't see much going for guns beyond "they're guns".

[Starbuck_II]

This has been mentioned elsewhere, but guns jamming on a natural 1/2 means that even with reload shenanigans, guns actually get worse the more attacks you have rather than better, since every shot you take is an increased chance of the gun jamming.

Really, I don't see much going for guns beyond "they're guns".

Gunslingers can clear a misfire condition with a move action as a class feature or you can just use Gunsmith feat (a free feat Gunslingers get) to clear it with craft skill (no check required) takes a few hrs (1-4) though.

Mysterious Stranger Archetype can ignore a roll of Misfire Cha uses/day.

Magic guns can get reliable (+1) to reduce total misfire by 1 or Greater Reliable (+3) to get total midfire reduced by 4.

Remember the gun is only broken condition if misfire: you can still use it.

[Ravens_cry]

The nicest part of guns is being able to make touch attacks. It will make an excellent non-spell weapon for an arcane trickster.
A fighter 4/rogue3 with snap shot and point blank master can ( I think) flank with a gun in melee and get sneak attack. Definitely late game, probably take a dip in Master Spy for another 1d6.

[FMArthur]

The 'ranged touch attack for damage as your main class feature' thing immediately brings to mind the Warlock. Is the Gunslinger as good as the Warlock? What features make them different?

[Hazzardevil]

I have a question for the owners of ultimate combat, is it OGL?

[Curious]

I have a question for the owners of ultimate combat, is it OGL?

Yes. However, Paizo generally requests that buyers keep quite about their books until the dead-tree format ones have been released, so as not to hurt business.

[Starbuck_II]

The 'ranged touch attack for damage as your main class feature' thing immediately brings to mind the Warlock. Is the Gunslinger as good as the Warlock? What features make them different?

Unlike Warlock you can enhance guns as magic weapons.
You can gain multiple attacks/rd (using rapid reload/paper cartiridges/Rapid shot/Twfing/Haste/etc).

Sadly, Warlocks can get Flight at 6th and Gunslingers are largely mundane (they can cast Knock with their gun though by shooting the lock, it specificlly says it is unlocked. Mostly for style)

Unlike Warlock you get all Grit abilties you qualify for free, no choices from a menu (so more at every interval new Grit abilities appears).
At 7th, he can flat foot a dude by missing on purpose (I guess if you are helping a rogue ally to sneak attack).


At higher levels:
They can aim at body parts (Arms auto disarm, Head conuses 1 rd, Legs Knock enemy prone, etc get benefit), cause bleeding (remember you need a heal check or healing magic to stop bleeding, nothing else will help even regeneration/Fast heal), and even a save/die (Fort save) which is rare for Pathfinder (most old save/dies because damage instead).

About the bleeding... they can cause 1 Con Bleed damage (I have no idea what this is supposed to mean)... does that work as normal bleed? Do they lose 1 Con per rd till heal skill or heal spell?


The class needs some clarification.

[Hazzardevil]

Yes. However, Paizo generally requests that buyers keep quite about their books until the dead-tree format ones have been released, so as not to hurt business.

Is this a request where if you deny them they make bad stuff happen or no repercussions?
I've heard there's a gun based cavalier archetype in it that I'm looking forward too.

[Bhaakon]

The 'ranged touch attack for damage as your main class feature' thing immediately brings to mind the Warlock. Is the Gunslinger as good as the Warlock? What features make them different?

Outside of firearms being comparable to eldritch blast because of the ranged touch attack, they're not very similar. Listing the differences would be tantamount to cutting and pasting their class entries (not ok, since UC hasn't even hit most book shelves and i'm pretty sure complete arcane isn't OGL). Suffice to say, I think the warlock's class abilities are notably superior.

As for gun vs. eldirtch blast, my op fu and math probably aren't up to the task, but I think a level 20 gunslinger will crush a warlock on raw damage to a single target, because of its higher base damage dice (d10 [rifle] or d8 [revolver] vs d6), additional damage from weapon enchantment (which can also eliminate the misfire chance), higher critical multiplier (x4), iterative attacks, full BAB (not that it matters much at that point vs touch AC), and getting to add Dex modifier in damage to each shot. That being said, the various secondary abilities that a warlock can add to their eldritch blast are (just by looking and having never played one) likely better than those a gunslinger can get from its called shot abilities.

So TL:DR, warlock probably > gunslinger, but it's not a runaway.

[Luckmann]

I have a question for the owners of ultimate combat, is it OGL?

OGL, but as per some unofficial agreement, it doesn't go up to the PFSRD until at least two weeks after the public release of the .pdf. Or at least that's how I understood it.

Is this a request where if you deny them they make bad stuff happen or no repercussions?

It's the kind of request where if you deny them, you're, like, a seriously uncool dude, man. Like totally.

I've heard there's a gun based cavalier archetype in it that I'm looking forward too.

Indeed. There's the Musketeer Archetype. It gains a Pistol or Musket (and proficiencies to use them), and a scaling class feature to compliment their use, as well as Rapid Reload (musket or pistol). These class features completely replace the Mount & Expert Training class features (at all appropriate levels).

Edit:

Outside of firearms being comparable to eldritch blast because of the ranged touch attack, they're not very similar. Listing the differences would be tantamount to cutting and pasting their class entries (not ok, since UC hasn't even hit most book shelves and i'm pretty sure complete arcane isn't OGL). Suffice to say, I think the warlock's class abilities are notably superior.

As for gun vs. eldirtch blast, my op fu and math probably aren't up to the task, but I think a level 20 gunslinger will crush a warlock on raw damage to a single target, because of its higher base damage dice (d10 [rifle] or d8 [revolver] vs d6), additional damage from weapon enchantment (which can also eliminate the misfire chance), higher critical multiplier (x4), iterative attacks, full BAB (not that it matters much at that point vs touch AC), and getting to add Dex modifier in damage to each shot. That being said, the various secondary abilities that a warlock can add to their eldritch blast are (just by looking and having never played one) likely better than those a gunslinger can get from its called shot abilities.

So TL:DR, warlock probably > gunslinger, but it's not a runaway.

On the other hand, there is still no Warlock class for Pathfinder. Which still sorta irks me. I'm sure they could do something awesome with it.

And yes, it has been explained to me that Complete Arcane isn't OGL, which is likely the reason Paizo have pussied out from creating a Warlock class, even though it in my opinion could be argued that Warlock is a rather generic, run-of-the-mill fantasy concept.

[BobVosh]

And yes, it has been explained to me that Complete Arcane isn't OGL, which is likely the reason Paizo have pussied out from creating a Warlock class, even though it in my opinion could be argued that Warlock is a rather generic, run-of-the-mill fantasy concept.

Ya but the CArc warlock is very unique. I certainly never pictured warlocks like that before.

[Luckmann]

Ya but the CArc warlock is very unique. I certainly never pictured warlocks like that before.

I'd like to see something in-between the 3.5 and 4e Warlock, Pathfinderized. Sorta like how the Sorcerer choose bloodlines, but the Warlock would obviously choose pacts. There are so many things in the multiverse that is willing to grant you such awesome powers in exchange for one measly soul...

[Bhaakon]

And yes, it has been explained to me that Complete Arcane isn't OGL, which is likely the reason Paizo have pussied out from creating a Warlock class, even though it in my opinion could be argued that Warlock is a rather generic, run-of-the-mill fantasy concept.

I thought the alchemist was the Pathfinder-ized Warlock. More-so than the gunslinger, at least.

[Luckmann]

I thought the alchemist was the Pathfinder-ized Warlock. More-so than the gunslinger, at least.

Doesn't feel very Warlock-y, to me.
But then, neither does the Gunslinger.

[Prime32]

Doesn't feel very Warlock-y, to me.
But then, neither does the Gunslinger.

The bombs are similar to eldritch blasts.

And yes, it has been explained to me that Complete Arcane isn't OGL, which is likely the reason Paizo have pussied out from creating a Warlock class, even though it in my opinion could be argued that Warlock is a rather generic, run-of-the-mill fantasy concept.

Just like they didn't create a duskblade?

[Luckmann]

The bombs are similar to eldritch blasts.

Maybe so, but what I said was that it doesn't feel very Warlock-y.

Just like they didn't create a duskblade?

Yes, well, I think they'd have to stick a bit too close for comfort to Warlocks to do a proper knock-off under another name.

No idea what they'd call it, without it sounding stupid, either.

[Hazzardevil]

I'm pretty sure they can make a class called warlock, and they can make a class that uses invocations, but they can't make a class that is both.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'd like to see something in-between the 3.5 and 4e Warlock, Pathfinderized. Sorta like how the Sorcerer choose bloodlines, but the Warlock would obviously choose pacts. There are so many things in the multiverse that is willing to grant you such awesome powers in exchange for one measly soul...

I see it now...

Celestial: Hey, we need another soul in the celestial army. I'll give you awesome powers. The price will be that your soul, with all the powers your had in life, will be conscripted into the celestial army, and you'll have to fight fiends a lot.

Human: well, it's better than selling my soul to devils. Deal!

[Yorrin]

I see it now...

Celestial: Hey, we need another soul in the celestial army. I'll give you awesome powers. The price will be that your soul, with all the powers your had in life, will be conscripted into the celestial army, and you'll have to fight fiends a lot.

Human: well, it's better than selling my soul to devils. Deal!

I like it. For added flavor do it with a Tiefling that gets shunned by his/her peers for the decision.

[CTrees]

I see it now...

Celestial: Hey, we need another soul in the celestial army. I'll give you awesome powers. The price will be that your soul, with all the powers your had in life, will be conscripted into the celestial army, and you'll have to fight fiends a lot.

Human: well, it's better than selling my soul to devils. Deal!

In an upcoming game I'm about to make my first (non-theoretical) Synthesist Summoner. The plan was "pretending to be an angel, including to the party," and this... I think I'm stealing it. I got approval to just go aasimar, but a half-elf that sold his soul to the upper planes could be a ton of fun to play (especially if he started out neutral...)

tl;dr - YOINK!

[Luckmann]

I see it now...

Celestial: Hey, we need another soul in the celestial army. I'll give you awesome powers. The price will be that your soul, with all the powers your had in life, will be conscripted into the celestial army, and you'll have to fight fiends a lot.

Human: well, it's better than selling my soul to devils. Deal!

I like to think that the celestials, just like Devils & Demons, are sorta split between Lawful & Chaotic, and that only the most humongous buttholes amongst the lawful celestials actively engages in things like this, dealing in mortal souls, peddling them about, striking deals, signing contracts & making pacts.

Sure, it's all for the greater good, but there's no way in hell you're getting out of this thing without having your soul flayed at least twice.

[Rixx]

To clarify:

Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge.

Also, the gunslinger looks like a really fun class. It may not be the most powerful thing ever, but I don't really equate power with fun.

[Hazzardevil]

To clarify:
Also, the gunslinger looks like a really fun class. It may not be the most powerful thing ever, but I don't really equate power with fun.

I think that at low levels, a gunslinger can out perform any other ranged combatant, the problem is, as you reach higher levels, guns are less useful than bows and ranged touch attacks.

Also, I got a hold of an ultimate combat PDF.
Heres my evaluation so far.

Classes seem the same as the playtest versions comparing tables, I haven't done a proper check o exact wording and probably won't.
I'm rather dissapointed with the gun based archetypes.
I like the Cavalier's, apart from it loses the mount, not good.
You also get a situtational rapid reload when you make a challenge and at level 8 gain improved critical with your guns and a few other things.
Paladin:
Gains profiency with guns, loses profiency in medium and heavy armour, not really a big deal since you will likely have good dex.
You can smite with your gun with a deed, I don't want to go into much detail here.
Also, you can't have a mount, you have to become bonded to your gun with a few strings attached, namely restrictions on how you can enchant it.

And lastly at higher levels you get some grit for a deed.

Wizard:
You can get 1 or 2 guns and can shoto ranged touch attacks out your guns.
If you only choose to have one gun, your ranged touch attacks do triple damage on a 20.
Down side?
Your guns explode on a 1, a 2 or a 20.
Not good and no way of changing it.
Edit:
Also, just to excite the final fantasy fans, fighters have a dragoon archetype. Just saying.

Edit, Edit:
And Magus gets several archetypes.

[Fax Celestis]

Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge.

Guess what Pathfinder didn't fix?

[Hazzardevil]

Guess what Pathfinder didn't fix?

You still need a caster level for alchemy? That's bull****!

[Starbuck_II]

Guess what Pathfinder didn't fix?

Where is that listed in Pathfinder?
The craft skill doesn't say that: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft

But yeah, you could use lousy reload times by buying cheap ammo or bleeding gp by crafting 1/2 cost paper cartiridges.

[Reverent-One]

Hmm, I don't see that restriction anywhere in the Craft entry.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[Hazzardevil]

Hmm, I don't see that restriction anywhere in the Craft entry.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

I was taking a random guess, it was like that in 3.5, I think it is just an error on Paizo's part seeing as it would make more sense for it to be weaponsmithing to make more bullets.

[Bhaakon]

Your guns explode on a 1, a 2 or a 20.

Only if it's broken (and I think it's only a 1 to hit or 20 save). But yeah, spellslinger is a cool idea, but the drawbacks are prohibitive.