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2011-07-20, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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[3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
In the comparison between sorcerers and wizards, sorcerers seem to get the short end of the stick. Short-term versatility through spontaneous casting doesn't seem to be as useful as the long-term versatility granted by an unrestricted spellbook, and the sorcerer's apparent increase in spells per day isn't really all that much when compared to a specialist wizard.
I am assuming that arcane casters overall have been weakened, such as through my wizard fix; this is meant to then get them back up to the level of the new wizards.
1. Sorcerers get Use Magic Device as a class skill. (Rationale: Due to the inability to specialize and having access to the biggest spell list, sorcerers will naturally be good for wand/scroll use. This takes that ability one step further, and fits well with their CHA focus.)
2. Class feature (level 1): Magical intuition (Su). Sorcerers may use Charisma, rather than Intelligence, as the key ability score for Spellcraft.
3. Class feature (level 5): Magic surge (Su). A sorcerer may cast any spell with a Magic Surge. This increases the casting time to 1 round (or increases the casting time by 1 round if it had previously been at least 1 round), but allows the sorcerer to add half his Charisma bonus to all caster level checks and dispel checks associated with the spell.
4. Class feature (level 10): Above and beyond (Su). A sorcerer may, as a free action, increase his caster level by a number up to half his charisma bonus for 1 minute per point of charisma bonus. After the bonus wears off, the sorcerer is exhausted and suffers the effect of 1 negative level per point of bonus he gained. These are not actual negative levels, however, so they are not prevented by Death Ward, cannot be removed by Restoration, cannot cause level loss, and do not cause death if they outnumber the sorcerer's hit dice. The exhaustion lasts until the sorcerer regains spell slots or until removed magically, while the negative level-like effect decreases by the equivalent of one negative level each time the sorcerer regains spell slots.
When using this ability, for every 2 levels of caster level increase the sorcerer may heighten all spells for free by 1 level, as well as increasing all caps on damage dice by 5 dice (or 10 dice if the spell does 2d6/level, or 2 dice if the spell does 1d6/2 levels).
(Rationale: This allows the sorcerer to get the occasional boost for special occasions.)
5. Class feature (level 15): Greater magic surge (Su). When using Magic surge, a sorcerer may increase the casting time by another round to add his full charisma bonus instead of only half.
6. A sorcerer gains extra spells known from a high charisma score just as he gains extra spells per day, but only ability modifiers that affect skill point gain (as per PHB p.58) affect these extra spells known.
7. A sorcerer may, as a free action, change a spell on his Spells Known list at a cost of 100 XP times the spell level. The change may be temporary (any chosen duration) or permanent, at the sorcerer's option.
8. A sorcerer can add custom spells to his Spells Known list without research (but still needs DM approval.)
9. The sorcerer's spells per day chart is moved up 1 level for spell levels 2-9 (so an 11th level sorcerer could cast 6 spells of each level from 1 to 4, 5 level 5 spells, and 3 level 6 spells), except a level 19 sorcerer can cast 5 level 9 spells per day (at level 20, that increases to 6 spells/day).
The sorcerer's spells known at the first level he can cast a given spell level (level 3 for SL 2, level 5 for SL 3, etc.) is 1, but he does not gain bonus spells known for his CHA bonus until the following level.
The result is a very volatile class, who is less versatile than the wizard in most situations but if he's willing to spend the resources can be extremely powerful and versatile. (He's also great for dispelling tough spells out of combat.)
Thoughts?Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-07-26 at 10:32 AM.
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2011-07-20, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Right, why would sorcerers get UMD as a class skill? So they can use divine scrolls and wands? That doesn't make any sense to me. Casters don't get UMD as a class skill because they can automatically succeed UMD checks with wands and scrolls from their own spell lists and they don't need to be able to expand their spell lists to others. Unless it's your intention for a sorcerer to suddenly be able to use wands of lesser vigor and scrolls of unholy aura.
Magical Intuition should be an extraordinary ability. It affects a person's skill check because he's just more affiliated with magic through force of personality. No reason for that to be suppressed by an AMF.
All in all? The wizard knows more spells per day and gets free metamagic feats, which is still much better than what you're proposing for your sorcerer. If you really nuked the wizard's spell list to the point that the wizard is tier 3 (I haven't looked at it) then the sorcerer would be a very low tier 3, even with these edits.
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2011-07-20, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Why would the sorcerer ever be Tier 3? AFAIK, its spell list is unaffected, so if anything, it should be more powerful than it already is, which is Tier 2.
More importantly, why boost the sorcerer if the wizard is nerfed? Tier 3 seems to be the upper range of the game's "sweet spot" where player power is (roughly) in balance with the DMs need to run the game by RAW. Sorcerers already have the tools to subvert most of the DM's attempts to contain them. A more powerful sorcerer, like CoDzilla or an unaltered wizard, can make hash of any DM's challenges, unless the DM resorts to cheating or fiat. Why bother making them even more unmanageable?
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2011-07-20, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
The sorcerer and wizard spell list is the same spell list. If he's nerfing wizard spells, he's nerfing sorcerer spells too.
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2011-07-20, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Sorcerers are supposed to be naturally magic. They don't sit around and study or prepare spells.
So why can't they naturally have a gift for metamagic? Their's is a magic that should be more Free-form, and in tune to they're will.
They can apply metamagic as normal, the way they do now. with no spell level adjustments.
But they gain free metamagics as they level up which apply to all spells, with no penalty.
1- Eschew Materials
They get Eschew Materials first, representing they're innate potential and the magic coming form within. Not some obscure set of conditions that have been met.
5- Silent Spell
10- Still Spell
The Sorcerer commands magic naturally, As they grow in power this connection only gets stronger with use. by level ten they need nothing but they're thoughts to cast magic.
15- Sculpt Spell
They're control over magic is not at all limited to the copy-paste antics of a Wizard. They're magic is free, and what a to a wizard is always some bead of fire becomes a cone, cylinder, line. What ever the Sorcerer desires for the situation.
20- Quicken Spell
Now the Sorcerer gets deadly. They get Quicken spell, with no adjustments or anything and spontaneously it proves worthy of a Class Cap. Always casting a spell swift per turn.
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2011-07-20, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Sorcerers already have a sorc-only Quicken Spell, it's called arcane spellsurge, and I believe it's in Complete Mage. It allows a sorcerer to cast standard action spells as swift actions and full-round spells as standard actions for 1 rd/CL. And because applying Metamagic increases the casting time to a full-round, you can lob a normal orb of force as a swift action, and a maximized empowered repeating twin orb of force as a standard action.
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2011-07-20, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
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2011-07-20, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-07-20, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Sounds like someone hasn't heard of The Mailman. The feat Arcane Thesis (which is incredibly broken) and the metamagic reduction class feature of the Incantatrix would allow it for something like this:
Maximize Spell becomes +1, Empower Spell becomes free, Twin Spell becomes +2 and Repeat Spell becomes +1, for a total of an 8th level spell (Orb of Force is a fourth level spell)
So, combined with the Quickened orb of force in the same round, a Sorc 6/Incantatrix 10/Full Spellcasting 4 would deal 25d6+180 force damage with no saving throw (if all four ranged touch attacks hit, and touch AC is always underpowered)
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2011-07-20, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-07-20, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Or he might want to emulate an alignment or class ability...it is not particularly powerful, but it's something that might come in useful and definitely fits with the class theme.
Magical Intuition should be an extraordinary ability. It affects a person's skill check because he's just more affiliated with magic through force of personality.
Not that Spellcraft is likely to see that much use in an AMF.
All in all? The wizard knows more spells per day and gets free metamagic feats, which is still much better than what you're proposing for your sorcerer. If you really nuked the wizard's spell list to the point that the wizard is tier 3 (I haven't looked at it) then the sorcerer would be a very low tier 3, even with these edits.
The wizard will still end up as a far better utility/contingency role, but the sorcerer should be a far more capable dispeller/blaster (which is one role that my wizard fix didn't weaken substantially.) The sorcerer is also far more versatile at magic item usage. Each has its strengths and weaknesses.
As someone else pointed out, the wizard is nerfed in a way that affects the sorcerer too.
Interesting idea, but I see a sorcerer as someone whose intuition tells him what a wizard has to learn through years of hard study, not someone with a gift that allows them to manipulate magic in a way that other people can't. I've got a different homebrew class for that idea, and it's an interesting one (learns spells more or less like a wizard, manifests them like a psion, casting time depends on spell level as compared to max spell level, with 2 rounds for the max spell level.)
Free Quicken Spell on a full caster is also quite overpowered.
Still, giving them Empower and/or Maximize when using "Above and Beyond" does seem appropriate. After all, if they're going to stretch the limits of their capabilities at substantial personal cost, they should be able to do it quite impressively indeed.
Part of the idea here is that the sorcerer isn't just another type of wizard. The wizard is far more versatile, but the sorcerer has more punch to him, especially when he's going all-out.
Edit: I also added an ability letting him cast spells not on his spells known for a moderate XP cost. So he's not going to be doing it often, but can if he has to. Also an ability giving him the ability to use custom spells just like the standard ones; his intuition doesn't care what other people are using.Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-07-20 at 04:49 PM.
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2011-07-21, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
I don't like seeing multiple class features that depend on xp expenditure. Even when they're just item creation it feels like a waste, and the costs here are measured in the 100's per level (probably at least 300-500 if you want something powerful. Sure, xp is a river, but it still sucks to be spending time paddling against the current. Addtionally, the really useful feature (casting spells you don't know) already exists, and has similar xp cost: Limited Wish. A 7th level spell that costs 300xp (still non-trivial at 13th level) and can duplicate other spells and can explicitly drop an unavoidable -7 penalty on your target's next save to really boost the effectiveness of your spells. I think you could really get all the same mileage out of simply making a "Really Limited Polite Request" at 5th level.
As for free metamagic: again, why would I want to burn xp for this? Unless you added some similar wizard mechanic that wizards are assumed to be using constantly, I don't see why I should have to spend xp to do something nice. A few simple bonus feats can give you the extra fuel needed to reduce the costs of a couple favorite metamagics and get similar effect. Unless the balance here is that no one will ever use it, in which case why have it at all? A 10th level sorcerer that wants more power can take Arcane Fusion and just throw out an extra 5d8 with his 10d6 every round, or combo Grease with other control, or whatever.
I liked magic surge when I started reading it, then saw that it sucked. A +2-4 bonus on beating SR and dispel? Unless dispel happens a lot in your campaign it's probably not going to matter hardly at all, and a dedicated dispel build always wins anyway. Beating SR is nice, but you could get the same effect without burning actions by just take Spell Penetration, or a far better effect by using Arcane Fusion with True Casting for +10 on your 4th level fused spell. So that's two class features here that are inferior to existing sorcerer "stealth" fixes, which can be bought with the bonus spells known (which are definitely a good thing). Now, if it was like Wild Surge and gave an actual bonus to caster level with all the goodies and eventually increased to a solid +4 or more, then that would be pretty awesome. The Wilder sucks, but the one thing it has going for it is that it can absolutely wreck normal caster level assumptions with a little effort. Like a barbarian in an arm wrestling match.
I may just be channeling "that guy," but with the right spells a sorcerer doesn't need fixing, just more spells known, and your bonus spells known cover that decently enough. I don't remember what you were doing from the wizard aside from nerfing spells, but assuming you weren't planning on nerfing the sorc-only spells as part of the wizard nerf, there shouldn't be any problems as long they they get a few extra spells to fight the spellbook.
Now this I like. Really like. As in, why the heck haven't I seen this before kinda like. My only argument is giving sculpt spell so late: It's basically the first thing they should learn after Eschew. I'd hesitate to make a menu of this kinda stuff, but the only problem is prioritizing silent vs. still and not having a couple other simple things. I'd try to stick to the standard 5/10/15/20, but I'd give some leeway. Allow Searing Spell or Piercing Cold instead of Sculpt, say for an elementalist. I'd actually give Still before Silent, since the "power word" effect is more powerful to me, even if it's also technically more useful and thus should come later. Or let them choose which one they want first. Maybe throw in Enlarge Spell in case someone has a hankering for quater-mile fireballs on tap. Quicken still takes the cake at epic 20th level capstone of course, and I wouldn't give away any variable increasers (empower, maximize, twin), but anything that manipulates shape or composition should be fair game.
That reminds me of a great idea: ditch those caps. Much like a psionic, a sorcerer should be able to use all his spells at full power if so desired. If you compare the Psion's powers known at 20th with a Sorcerer's spells known, the numbers are really close, the difference being that the Psion can augment his 1st level Energy Rays and whatnot up to 9th level DCs, and often upgrade 5th level effects to rival actual 9th level spells. The tradeoff is that in a game with actual psionicists, the sorcerer's "free" power points from just having a high caster level in the spell system would be rather overwhelming. But while he has increased damage on those low level spells, he still doesn't have the DC, rage, area, or extra effects that a lot of augments can provide, so I wouldn't say it would be all one sided. And giving sorcerers uncapped caster level effects for all of their spells would definitely give them a serious edge and different feel from wizards at high levels.
Arcane Spellsurge isn't a sorcerer-only spell, wizards can use it too. It's also found in Dragon Magic, while the Arcane Fusion line is the sorcerer only set from Complete Mage. Now, something a wizard can't do (without Wyrm Wizard anyway), is use Arcane Spellsurge and Heighten Spell or a zero-cost metamagic to cast two Greater Arcane Fusions per round, churning out two 7th and two 4th level spells every turn (until they run out of 8th level slots anyway). And if you're from the char-op boards, you've probably decided that you can also apply (reduced) metamagic to those component spells, for two maximized twinned orbs and two more vanilla orbs every round (though by my reading you can't apply maximize to the inside or outside of the Fusion). Heck, even just a quickened or twinned Arcane Fusion is scary, no matter how you pull it off.Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2011-07-21, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
It depends how often you use it. The high XP cost is meant to discourage regular use; it's for emergencies only.
Addtionally, the really useful feature (casting spells you don't know) already exists, and has similar xp cost: Limited Wish.
Again, the XP-costing abilities are not meant for common use.
As for free metamagic: again, why would I want to burn xp for this?
Unless you added some similar wizard mechanic that wizards are assumed to be using constantly, I don't see why I should have to spend xp to do something nice.
A few simple bonus feats can give you the extra fuel needed to reduce the costs of a couple favorite metamagics and get similar effect.
Unless the balance here is that no one will ever use it, in which case why have it at all? A 10th level sorcerer that wants more power can take Arcane Fusion
I liked magic surge when I started reading it, then saw that it sucked. A +2-4 bonus on beating SR and dispel? Unless dispel happens a lot in your campaign it's probably not going to matter hardly at all
and a dedicated dispel build always wins anyway.
Beating SR is nice, but you could get the same effect without burning actions by just take Spell Penetration
or a far better effect by using Arcane Fusion with True Casting for +10 on your 4th level fused spell.
I may just be channeling "that guy," but with the right spells a sorcerer doesn't need fixing, just more spells known, and your bonus spells known cover that decently enough.
I don't remember what you were doing from the wizard aside from nerfing spells
but assuming you weren't planning on nerfing the sorc-only spells as part of the wizard nerf
That reminds me of a great idea: ditch those caps. Much like a psionic, a sorcerer should be able to use all his spells at full power if so desired. If you compare the Psion's powers known at 20th with a Sorcerer's spells known, the numbers are really close, the difference being that the Psion can augment his 1st level Energy Rays and whatnot up to 9th level DCs, and often upgrade 5th level effects to rival actual 9th level spells.
The tradeoff is that in a game with actual psionicists, the sorcerer's "free" power points from just having a high caster level in the spell system would be rather overwhelming. But while he has increased damage on those low level spells, he still doesn't have the DC, rage, area, or extra effects that a lot of augments can provide, so I wouldn't say it would be all one sided. And giving sorcerers uncapped caster level effects for all of their spells would definitely give them a serious edge and different feel from wizards at high levels.
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2011-07-24, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Heh. I hadn't noticed this was assuming core-only: while it's in the title, it's not actually mentioned in the post. I don't really see the point in ignoring perfectly good non-core resources that boost the sorcerer (literally, just a few feats and spells), but if that's how you want to do things I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
It depends how often you use it. The high XP cost is meant to discourage regular use; it's for emergencies only.
Of course, that's only available later on and also requires you to spend a higher-level slot. This is more for when you absolutely need that one obscure low-level spell that nobody has prepared/known and don't want to spend a 7th level slot.
Because it's a big battle and you want to go (as the ability is called) "above and beyond".
You don't. You can cast at your level, the best spell for the situation multiple times, without XP expenditure.
There is no pre-epic core feat that lets you use free metamagic.(and there's no core epic feats either, since the Epic Level Handbook is by definition not core)[Oops, forgot they did put that in the 3.5 DMG]. However, if you actually want to start the two classes on even footing by allowing the splatbooks that worked to fix the sorcerer already, then yes, there are at least two easy feats that reduce metamagic costs. And even in core there are metamagic rods, which are pretty dang broken and yet still cost you no xp.
It's not to beat SR and dispel...it's to beat SR and to dispel. The sorcerer's the one dispelling.
Not really; you're still capped in caster level to dispel (the sorcerer's boost is an additional add-on and so is applied after the cap.)
Weakened defensive options (which also weakens the sorcerer just like the wizard), granted added counters (which hurts the sorcerer less because he has more spells to burn, and now he can dispel more easily), and weakened divination a bit (which definitely doesn't affect the sorcerer as much). Oh, and made it impossible to regain spells more than 1/day (which hurts the sorcerer more due to less spells/day.)
He also has to pay 9th level costs for them.
It would still give sorcerers unreasonably high endurance.
I think I just noticed why I really object to most of your mechanics here (aside from banning all splatbooks): you claim to be boosting the sorcerer, but every single mechanic has a drawback except for the bonus spells known. That's not really boosting, not when the wizard still has free bonus feats and unlimited spells known at the mere cost of gold.Last edited by Fizban; 2011-07-24 at 07:06 AM.
Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2011-07-24, 07:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Originally Posted by Fizban;11464623
Now [I
Well... I did here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201153
It was one of my first 'brews. I'm gonna go in and fix some things right now.
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2011-07-24, 07:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Ah, I remember that one now. I didn't notice the auto-metamagic cause I stopped when I got to the casting overhaul. It was easy enough to figure out, but I didn't like it and didn't feel like posting when it was basically the whole point of the class. And I'd already seen the linked Flux mechanic and really didn't like that.
My, I seem to be extremely negative todayFizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2011-07-24, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
I didn't ignore them; I didn't know of them. Also, I'm reluctant to include non-OGL material directly in a public houserule, and referencing it (assuming it's not core) without quoting it is right out (as then people without added resources can't be as effective.)
Yeah, and Limited Wish is also for emergencies only. Being able to use the ability at low levels is nice, sure, but when it's costing you literally as much xp as you're gaining from the encounter, I would basically never use it until the later levels anyway.
Scrolls are cheap
That said, that ability is somewhat optional due to scrolls; it's more for flavor than for balance.
And again, you're negating a large portion of the xp you would be gaining for the encounter in order win faster. So you win, but you don't get the main reward for winning.
And that's not counting the fact that free metamagic for all your spells over multiple turns is horribly broken. I see this ability being used once, during the boss fight, and completely wrecking the final encounter of the game.
I guess I should be more specific. Other people get to go "all-out" with rage or smites or whatever, but the sorcerer (and wizard) are already on a daily limit to begin with. Then the sorcerer suddenly has a cool awesome mode ability, but it costs xp. Sure there's nothing saying you have to use it, but it just seems like bad design to me.
However, if you actually want to start the two classes on even footing by allowing the splatbooks that worked to fix the sorcerer already, then yes, there are at least two easy feats that reduce metamagic costs.
And even in core there are metamagic rods, which are pretty dang broken and yet still cost you no xp.
It's still a small bonus that only matters because you keep saying core-only.
You're giving up at least a move action and also allowing your enemies a chance to disrupt your spell, for a 10% higher chance of beating SR or dispelling an effect.
Compared to the chances of having your spells disrupted in that time
I'd actually say that the sorcerer is weakened less by nerfing defensive spells, since he can't afford to know nearly as many as the wizard. Where the wizard stacks 4 or 5 (or 6, 7, 8, etc), the sorcerer can only afford to know 2 or 3, so he's using fewer nerfed effects.
Of course, not every defensive spell is going to be useful for every battle (improved invisibility is limited-use when the enemy has scent or a good Listen check (actually, most monsters do), and flight is limited-use when the enemy can fly or shoot)), so assume maybe 1/3 of the battles will have any given spell. Then the wizard gets maybe 3 to 4 spells per level, still not beyond the sorcerer.
The wizard only dominates in defensive spells if there are a ton of available options (not true for core-only) or it's 1 fight between restings (which I did make unfeasible without 1 fight per day, which is easy to make unfeasible.)
I assume by added counters you mean you're giving free counterspell actions every round?
As for recovering spells more than 1/day, considering that the standard rules already state that you can't recover a particular slot until 8 hours have passed, I don't think that was very necessary.
I don't think recovering spells multiple times per day is actually a major problem for the vast majority of groups.
And the sorcerer wouldn't be getting 9th level effects.
How so? They already have more spells than wizards
and it has been proven time and again that after 9th level or so (the point at which uncapping those spells would actually have a game effect), the wizard doesn't run out of spells anyway.
Because that last point is the real key; a wizard can get a tremendous repertoire by preparing each spell only once, but then each spell cast uses up not only one spell/day slot but also one "spell prepared" slot.
Unless you're playing with far more encounters per day than the game is designed for
I think I just noticed why I really object to most of your mechanics here (aside from banning all splatbooks): you claim to be boosting the sorcerer, but every single mechanic has a drawback except for the bonus spells known.
That's not really boosting, not when the wizard still has free bonus feats and unlimited spells known at the mere cost of gold.
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2011-07-24, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
I've thought more about it, and I think you're right about Above and Beyond needing weakening and the spell-switch-for-XP needing strengthening, so that's been done.
Ultimately, though, a key part of the balance between sorcerers and wizards is going to have to be that the wizard needs to prepare a spell twice to be able to cast it twice (unless he uses a Pearl of Power, but those can get pricey, and corresponding to it a sorcerer can use scrolls), while the sorcerer only needs one spells known slot no matter how often he needs to cast it.Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-07-24 at 09:37 AM.
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2011-07-25, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Emergency! Emergency! Incoming Wall of Text! Prepare for Launch!
*Star Fox theme*
It sounds like you intend this for other people online, so with this reasoning the core only restriction actually makes some sense. If want everything usable with only online resources then that's a fair point (I would assume that people in meatspace could just share their books).
Unless it's to avoid a TPK, or a level 1 spell will win you an encounter at ECL5, etc.
Everyone's going to be going all-out for the final boss (assuming they know it's the final boss); since Quicken isn't on the list of allowed applications, it simply means that the sorcerer's going to be hitting far harder for the key fights (it's cheap enough to be potentially worth using for sub-bosses as well.) And doesn't that make sense for someone who uses magic through intuition and instinct?
If you'd like an alternative, how about mental exhaustion or temporary negative levels? I've seen a couple homebrews that basically just make a straight conversion of the rage mechanics, replacing physical exaustion with mental, and it works out surprisingly well. Other homebrews have replaced death penalties and magic item xp costs with negative levels and stat penalties that persist for days or even until you next level up. Even if it's actually more dangerous to take a penalty than lose an encounter's worth of xp, the player is going to accept it far more readily. Instead of an entire fight's worth of experience (or if priced in gold, 1000's of gold pieces), just a -something for a while? Easy question, easy answer.
Part of it is for flavor, and part is for the extreme cases (like boss fights, or when you just have to fight an enemy 4 levels higher than yourself.)
Don't have those splatbooks.
But quite a bit of cash.
This is meant for core-only, though; non-core means that more books=more options=more power, and that is inherently unfixable unless you assume everyone has everything.
10%? At low levels it's 10%; at higher levels it could hit twice that.
Quite low if you're properly defended by allies.
Not really; if something is a critical defensive effect, you're using it every battle, or close to it. Most of the important ones have durations measured in minutes at most, so the wizard's going to have to replenish it for every battle. So (assuming resources barely sufficient for 5 battles per day) the wizard can prepare maybe 1 to 1 and a half per spell level if he spends all his spells on that...which the sorcerer can definitely spare, especially now that he gets bonus spells known for his CHA.
Of course, not every defensive spell is going to be useful for every battle (improved invisibility is limited-use when the enemy has scent or a good Listen check (actually, most monsters do), and flight is limited-use when the enemy can fly or shoot)), so assume maybe 1/3 of the battles will have any given spell. Then the wizard gets maybe 3 to 4 spells per level, still not beyond the sorcerer.
The wizard only dominates in defensive spells if there are a ton of available options (not true for core-only) or it's 1 fight between restings (which I did make unfeasible without 1 fight per day, which is easy to make unfeasible.)
Nope; I mean spells that are total defenses against the most powerful offensive spell types.
Again, from reading the other thread if seems like I can get more a feel of your game. It sounds like you have both divine and arcane casters in every enemy group, close to party level and packed with status removal and dispels. Previous bits indicated running a high number of encounters per day, enough that the wizard is always running low on spells, and spacing every encounter hours apart from the others such that buffs run out. If I'm right, these are not normal conditions for most games. Usually I hear that casters are rare, but higher in level than the party, and encounters are in clusters such that the party clears a building of 2 or 3 at once. Comparing to my own game (a decently optimized party going through Red Hand of Doom with modified encounters), the number of encounters swings wildly between 1 and 5, but the wizard has never run out of spells, and the module only places casters in enemy strongholds, where you fights at least 3 groups of enemies in quick succession. I don't want to say that you're doing it wrong, since even if I disagree you must be having fun and that's all that matters. But I think your game runs a little differently than both the generic low-op setting and other high-op games. Or I could be reading way to far into this, but I'm just trying to see why your fixes seem so counter-intuitive (I've seen a lot of fixes on this forum, some good, some terrible, but they always attack along the exact same lines, which yours are mostly ignoring, so something's gotta be different?)
It does cut down on it somewhat.
So without it, how is a wizard going to prepare anywhere near as many defensive spells as a sorcerer and not have to worry about needing the one they already used last fight?
Unless he spends 9th level spell slots. (9th level spells known aren't all that necessary, as he can take metamagic to bring it up. Half of augmentation really boils down to Heighten Spell anyway.)
Not by all that much.
How so? And what do you mean by "run out of spells"; no spells left to cast, or few enough that he's substantially less versatile than the sorcerer?
Because that last point is the real key; a wizard can get a tremendous repertoire by preparing each spell only once, but then each spell cast uses up not only one spell/day slot but also one "spell prepared" slot.
More than 4?
Yes; much like a wilder's main mechanic has a substantial drawback.
There's nothing "mere" about gold when it comes out to large amounts.Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2011-07-25, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
As well as my own games. But yes; the main idea is for online games (or for those who only have the core books.)
so with this reasoning the core only restriction actually makes some sense. If want everything usable with only online resources then that's a fair point (I would assume that people in meatspace could just share their books).While I will grant that yes, I would use it to avoid a TPK, that's true of basically any ability. If I had something like this backing me up, I'd actually spend even more time making sure I'm perfectly prepared for an area and refuse to jump into risky situations: because then the party would expect me to burn my own xp to bail them out.
I'd also say that with only core spells it's very unlikely that you'll need a specific 1st level spell you don't already have and can't approximate. And 1st level scrolls are indeed cheap enough that you can carry around a bag full of all the available spells.
It's free metamagic. That stacks with other metamagic. Including rods. So you're maximizing on top of your normal empowering and using a quicken rod.
That said, it was a bit much, which is why I removed it.
It's definitely no longer broken, but I'd still never use it except when I new the game was almost over and I wouldn't need the xp.
Xp costs are a really bad game mechanic all around actually
It's not like there's only a finite amount of XP available.
especially when no other classes have similar mechanics.
If you'd like an alternative, how about mental exhaustion or temporary negative levels?
So why would the common version of the class learn it?
And yet there is nothing else worth buying for a caster in core.
On the contrary, I think "everything goes" is a lot more fixable than core only.
Plus, "anything goes" means you don't get the same sense of "class=archetype" because there are so many classes for each main archetype. Which some DMs might like; I don't.
Non-casters have almost no options in core
I'm not sure what "unfixable unless you assume everyone has everything" means. Does your group not share books?
Yeah, and? A +10-20% chance on a roll that probably started with a 40% chance
and you're accepting a variable chance of losing the spell completely. Even if you're "properly" defended by allies, there could still be hidden foes, ranged attacks, or even other spells to deal with.
And of course it really shines when you're not threatened at all but need to disable that magic trap quickly.
And from what I'm reading it sounds like you have a lot more casters in your world than what I usually hear
First, duration: for damage, Resist Energy, Protection from Energy, and Stoneskin all have 10 min/level or higher durations.
Second, you're assuming that these battles are spaced far enough apart that all those minute/level spells run out... says who? That is a lot of time for a coordinated party to wreck stuff, and most adventure locations are supposed to have more than one fight in them.
Uh, the listen check DC is +20 to pinpoint, on top of any token move silently checks.
A lot of monsters have good listen checks, but not all, and certainly not all classed NPCs.
The enemy still has to break off to fly after a wizard, at possibly a lower fly speed and most likely a lower maneuverability, so the wizard should have at least a few rounds of safety while that monster spends it's time chasing him down. Seems like pretty good action denial to me.
Most monsters and characters don't plan on any amount of ranged attacking whatsoever, so if they even do have a ranged attack it will suck pretty hard, and still have to beat defenses like Mirror Image, Blink, and Stoneskin.
Also, why would most characters not plan on any ranged attacking unless they have the mobility to go melee with a flying wizard?
The wizard dominates in defensive spells in core just fine: while there are more powerful options in splatbooks, some of the best are right there in the PHB. The durations are long enough that you can do plenty of damage with a good party, and refreshing the important spells is manageable when needed with scrolls and Pearls of Power. Maybe he'll call for a rest after 2 or 3 if he's managed them poorly or been unlucky, but the 10 minute workday is a myth.
Yeah, I went and read that. I find it greatly amusing that your plan for reducing the power of control is to make other spells better, rather than nerf the best control spells themselves.
The walls may be fairly useless, but Stinking Cloud hardly loses anything. In fact, it may be more powerful now that people can burn actions trying to ignore it, only to fail another save while they're still in the cloud.
And you didn't touch Grease, or Glitterdust, etc.
The spell fixes don't help non-casters at all
I'm also planning to add a few extra options with my upcoming fighter fix.
Again, from reading the other thread if seems like I can get more a feel of your game. It sounds like you have both divine and arcane casters in every enemy group, close to party level and packed with status removal and dispels.
Previous bits indicated running a high number of encounters per day
enough that the wizard is always running low on spells
and spacing every encounter hours apart from the others such that buffs run out
Usually I hear that casters are rare, but higher in level than the party, and encounters are in clusters such that the party clears a building of 2 or 3 at once. Comparing to my own game (a decently optimized party going through Red Hand of Doom with modified encounters), the number of encounters swings wildly between 1 and 5, but the wizard has never run out of spells, and the module only places casters in enemy strongholds, where you fights at least 3 groups of enemies in quick succession. I don't want to say that you're doing it wrong, since even if I disagree you must be having fun and that's all that matters. But I think your game runs a little differently than both the generic low-op setting and other high-op games.
Or I could be reading way to far into this, but I'm just trying to see why your fixes seem so counter-intuitive (I've seen a lot of fixes on this forum, some good, some terrible, but they always attack along the exact same lines, which yours are mostly ignoring, so something's gotta be different?)
In addition, I am not assuming that every class has to have a chance against every other class. A rock-paper-scissors-type system will also keep all classes equivalent in overall power, assuming NPCs overall are somewhat intelligent.
As discussed above, the same way they always have. Even for groups that do allow re-preparing shenanigans, I've never heard of a group that actually did so in such a way that they managed to fight encounters with full spells every time. Spells are basically the only important daily resource
The only thing he's gonna get with core metamagic is more damage, which is nice, but not nearly as good as changing a single target save or die into a mass target. Or completely changing the effect. Which some powers do.
Yes, yes by all that much. At full base spells, 50% more at each level.
Alternatively, call it two extra slots at each level. When a wizard gets a new level of spells, he has 1+bonus. A sorcerer has 3+bonus.
I mean run out of useful stuff to do, which is the same thing as run out of spells. And yes, the wizard generally only prepares one copy of each spell. If used properly one spell can end the fight, or put it within easy mop-up reach of the rest of the party.
f you have endurance problems you'll probably buy Pearls of Power instead of Metamagic Rods, in which case every spell could be as many as 2 or 3 of the same thing. And a lot of those spells are only 2nd or 3rd level, so Pearls and scrolls are not unfeasible.
Yes, that's the guideline I'm referring to. A wizard should be able to handle each fight with only 1-3 spells
Yeah, except the Wilder doesn't lose hundreds of xp every time it uses Wild Surge.
Sure there is, when it's only 150gp per spell level per spell.
There's also the (with the wizard fix) fact that you need a very good Spellcraft score to be absolutely certain of getting that one you wanted. Most won't bother for certainty and will end up with a slightly randomized list.
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2011-07-25, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Jumping in with a suggestion, would it be problematic for the burn xp abilities to instead burn other multiple spell levels? I'm gonna find the link to the sorc. fix that I lifted this from.
LGBTA+itP
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2011-07-25, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
What do you mean "burn other multiple spell levels"?
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2011-07-25, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Dangit, can't find the link.
So if you needed to cast a level 2 spell, you could (as a full round action) use up spells equal to (2nd level spell x 3) 6 spell levels. Make sense?
I suck at explaining, so that's why I was trying to find the link instead. It was from somebody with "sorcerers at parity with the wizard? Madness" in their signature.LGBTA+itP
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2011-07-25, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-07-25, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
It'd be explained differently fluffwise. Something similar to forcing raw power into a new shape because of the need of the sorcerer, perhaps. I was asking specificaly about the game balance of it.
LGBTA+itP
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2011-07-25, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
For game balance, it seems ok but not great...if something doesn't work fluffwise, though, that makes it a no-go for me.
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2011-07-25, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
The comparison here would be the party expecting the fighter to stay behind and hold off the monsters while the rest of the party escapes and gets full xp. The xp costs of magic item creation are extremely small while giving you permanent benefits, but more to the point, you choose to do so during downtime. There is no chance of the party pressuring you into burning your xp on item creation in the middle of a dungeon.
That's why I changed it to semipermanently changing your spells known; so if you expect to be using Grease a lot over the next month (far more than scrolls would justify), you can spend 100 XP to put it on your list (replacing something else) for the month.
Or when it's the boss for the adventure (even if not the campaign) and a +1 boost to caster level will give you that extra oomph (to bypass SR, or allow you to use that scroll more reliably, etc.), or you're facing an enemy with CR higher than your ECL and need the boost (and will conversely get more XP to compensate for the XP lost.)
How so? So long as they're low enough that spending 5% of your gained XP on costs, together with 5% of your gained wealth on expendables above and beyond normal, gives you enough of an advantage to complete an adventure in only 95% the time and with 95% the risk, it should balance out.
It's not like there's only a finite amount of XP available.
Item crafting could be considered a similar mechanic.
That makes sense. Changing that one (the spell switch still should be for XP, though, as that's effectively a minor type of retraining.)
This argument really doesn't work for the sorcerer, as nobody learns to be a sorcerer; they just find that they naturally have the talent.
Wands, scrolls, niche items (such as certain high-level mirrors and the like), ability score boosters (because with a d4, you can use all the CON you can get), AC boosters (to give you some chance of not being hit if your illusions and mobility are bypassed). And of course, even without anything else it still highly limits how many rods you can get.
Plus, "anything goes" means you don't get the same sense of "class=archetype" because there are so many classes for each main archetype. Which some DMs might like; I don't.
Depends on the non-caster.
Or 25% if you're trying to push past the SR of a high-powered enemy (or a high-level monk with my monk fix, or to dispel a spell by a powerful enemy.)
Yes; it's risky. But for adding half again to your success chance, it can often be easily worth it.
And of course it really shines when you're not threatened at all but need to disable that magic trap quickly.
[sounds like you have a lot more casters in your world] How so?
Yes; the duration issue as such is more for things like Improved Invisibility. But even 10 min/level (and none of the spells you listed are real game-changers) means you'll probably have to recast a few times.
It depends on the adventure.
Casting doesn't allow a move silently check; it's a flat DC 0.
It'll give him a useful ability, but only up to a point.
Also, why would most characters not plan on any ranged attacking unless they have the mobility to go melee with a flying wizard?
Only by using resources and preparing important spells multiple times...which a sorcerer can do just as well.
Boosting a counter effectively nerfs the thing it counters.
They can...or they can move out of the cloud and then try to get rid of it. (It can't be more powerful now that there's more options to deal with it, unless your enemies are stupid.) It's still useful, but no longer broken.
Grease has low enough area that it's really powerful only in very limited circumstances
Glitterdust's blindness isn't so hard to remove (and a fighter can probably get a similar effect by throwing sand into his enemy's eyes.)
Fighters and barbarians (which is what I assume you mean by non-casters, as paladins and monks have quite impressive saves and rangers and rogues definitely don't need the help) without caster support aren't supposed to be effective against casters. Every class has its strengths and weaknesses, and a wizard or sorcerer's strengths are unsupported non-casters. (Their weaknesses are cleric-supported enemies and monks.)
I'm also planning to add a few extra options with my upcoming fighter fix.
Not every group, but it's assumed that any capable group at higher levels will have the ability to counter/block magic one way or another.
4 encounters per day is not high; it's the recommended amount.
Or at least low enough that he loses much of his versatility.
Not always, but often. It depends how far apart they are physically, as well as the nature of the adventure.
The way I'm describing seems to be (from the Core books) the way D&D was meant to be played.
I, on the other hand, read the DMG, MM, etc. as indicating that that's not how it's intended to be played, and so I am trying to balance it for the way it was originally intended to be played
In addition, I am not assuming that every class has to have a chance against every other class. A rock-paper-scissors-type system will also keep all classes equivalent in overall power, assuming NPCs overall are somewhat intelligent.
Spells are the only important resource replenished each day, but time itself is another resource, and an extremely important one. If they replenished twice as fast, they effectively get twice as much time, which means the effects of dawdling have to be twice as strong, which causes harm on both realism and fun.
Most don't, though.
Actually, he has 0; the following level, when the sorcerer gets those spells at 3+bonus, the wizard has 2+bonus.
And preparing only one copy of each spell still won't help you if the right spell to use is the same one twice in a row.
Consider that this point has grown from the suggestion that sorcerers ignore the normal level caps on their spells. That doesn't change that they're still trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, likely having to burn multiple spells to get the same effect as a wizard that brought the right one. Even with a versatile spell loadout, at least one or two of the sorcerer's staple spells are going to be underleveled and probably require multiple castings to get the same effect. The sorcerer trades what extra endurance they have in order to make up for their lack of versatility. Uncapping their spell damage would... give them some brute force to use when they don't have an appropriate spell. Seems fine to me. It was just a throwaway suggestion for a unique mechanic.
And that's part of what my wizard fix addresses.
Wild Surge is really more analogous to Magic Surge than to Above and Beyond. But yeah, Above and Beyond has been fixed.
At 10 spells per spell level, that's 67,500, which is a decent (though not large) percentage of your WBL by level 20. It's doable, but only if you're going to use it.
There's also the (with the wizard fix) fact that you need a very good Spellcraft score to be absolutely certain of getting that one you wanted. Most won't bother for certainty and will end up with a slightly randomized list.Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2011-07-25, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
No, it's expecting the fighter to be in the front lines, with the highest risk of death, while the rest of the party also helps in the fight.
The xp costs of magic item creation are extremely small while giving you permanent benefits
but more to the point, you choose to do so during downtime. There is no chance of the party pressuring you into burning your xp on item creation in the middle of a dungeon.
And I say that no sir, I would not. When I can easily look up exactly how much xp I'm getting for each encounter and realize exactly how far behind this ability will put me, I am not going to use it unless I am going to die, or I know that the game is close enough to the end that no one will be leveling up any more.
Because xp is a metagame construct designed to reward the player by making their character more powerful over time.
Yes, as long as you're playing the game you will get more xp, but once you've spent it on something it's gone forever. The very second that you use that ability, you doom yourself to being behind on xp compared to other party members for the rest of the game (barring slingshot effects).
But now that it's been changed to last or be permanent, at least it can leave you with something for your trouble.
Says you. To me, the fact that any character can take a level of sorcerer whenever they want says that it's surprisingly easy to learn.
In any case, it doesn't change the fact that most of the world's NPC sorcerers are not actually adventuring.
Ah, ability enhancments, forgot them. Still, any wizard who wastes money on an AC bonus is a chump. For the same amount of money you can get a number of 2nd level Pearls of Power, which will guard you far better.
There's just no way we're going to agree there then. I think binding classes into archetypes is silly.
Really, your own parentheticals and explanations betray you here. The melee types are supposed to be good at fighting monsters (they're not).
At least one of the ranger's spells can be useful sometimes.
I was referring more to the fact that in a natural environment at high levels he's a total killer against anything without a good spot check.
The rogue has tons of options (if he buys a bag of magic items to cast spells for him).
Who needs magic items when you can win without seeing combat, or even letting your enemy be aware of your existence?
Non-casters don't have spells, therefore they do not have as many options, period.
And as you said yourself, options=power.
Except when your spell is interrupted and your chance of it working goes from whatever to exactly zero.
Or you can just use a spell that doesn't allow spell resistance.
I think I know what my plan would be. As for magic traps, they're a laugh. One of the few things a rogue can do without magic items is disable magic traps all day long.
And from the fact that you think that's one of the few things a rogue can do without magic items, it's clear you've never seen a well-played rogue. (Neither have I, admittedly, although outside D&D some extremely impressive characters are of that sort, most notably Lord Vetinari from Discworld. But I can at least see how it would be done.)
Your plan for fixing save or lose is not to weaken the problem spells, but to extend the duration of the spells that negate them. How would that help unless all of your NPCs have casters with them?
Regarding Glitterdust, you mention that blindness is easy to get rid of. Say what? It's a rounds/level duration, while the only cure for blindness is a very specific second level spell. In order for that to actually happen there must be a cleric, of at least 3rd level, with that specific spell prepared, which has no use outside of negating a specific other spell. And so on.
Not game-changers? Resist Energy cuts most damage by at least half, if not completely negating it, of all breath weapons and spells of the chosen type.
Protection from Energy just completely stops more than 60hp of damage without letting any through.
Stoneskin makes you effectively immune to arrows and cuts melee damage at least in half.
Stoneskin+Fly+Mirror Image= I don't care about attack rolls.
Resist Energy on top of that says no to breath weapons and staple damage spells like Scorching Ray and Fireball.
No, you won't be completely invincible, but you'll be plenty well protected in ways the other party members can't duplicate.
And again, you're assuming the party is fighting literally all day. Ten minutes per level is an entire hour at 6th level. One whole hour. Once you get to the fight, it shouldn't take more than 1 minute. That is more than enough time to take multiple fights.
Yeah, and most "adventures" tend to take place around a central area or figure, where you will show up and have a number of fights close together. The game is not meant to be a constant string of random encounters spaced extremely far apart. The RHoD encounter tables, for example, only give a 60% chance of encounter during an entire 12 hours on the road, and 30% chance camping at night. That's maybe one random encounter per day, with the rest found in certain locations.
The result is that wizard is a more defensive class (but vulnerable to those with the proper tools to bypass his defenses), while sorcerer is a more offensive class...which actually seems pretty good to me.
A mission of "keep the monsters away?" That's the job of an army, not a 4 man adventuring squad.
Well yeah, if you turn invisible and just stand there you're gonna get killed. Try moving around after you cast.
And you might be surprised at the limitations on those other abilities. Scent requires a relatively short range and only gives you direction unless you're already standing in melee range. And if you're flying they get to try the ridiculous "tracking through air" penalties.
Yes, up to the point where another spellcaster shows up to fight him properly.
Why would most characters not plan on ranged attacking? Because they're melee builds that can't hit the broad side of a barn with a ranged weapon?
DnD is all about specialization
I think you're getting lost in the multi-quote. The point was that wizards can have good defenses without resting after every fight, not that sorcerers can't.
Bwahahaha! I'm sorry but no, no it does not. If you make a certain spell stronger, the only person it benefits is one who can use that spell.
What about all the monsters and all the NPC groups that don't have casters around to cast these improved defensive spells?
It's still costing them multiple actions and forcing them out of a particular area. So maybe they make the extra move-action save after they've exited the cloud and it's the same as if they'd rolled 1 on the 1d4 for rounds of nausea after leaving. On the other hand, seeing that they have a chance of staying in the cloud and not being forced out, I will guarantee someone will try it sometime. And the spell will hose them harder than it would have if they didn't have that option. The spell may be a bit weaker, but not by much. Instead of save vs. nausea every round and then you have to exit the cloud, it's more like save vs. slow and then save again to resist nausea. Still pretty awesome.
In short, it's a classic debuff spell: Can be resisted, can be defended against by magic, but if it isn't it's going to cause you some problems.
True, but it can still much up at least one guy. It ranges from meh to amazing, but that's still better than "I has sword."
No, no he can't! There is absolutely no way for a fighter to blind an opponent without a magic item in core!
DM ad-hoc mechanics are in Core...
Now there's a viewpoint I don't think I've seen before. If that's the kind of rock/paper/scissors balance you're trying to work with then it's actually a nifty idea. It does assume an even distribution of the major class roles, which is not supported by the base game, however.
Just look at the breakdown of monsters in one category or the other. The game isn't supposed to be about rock/paper/scissors
But I still think you're going to have to do some more work on spell tweaking.
A good idea if you want the game to make sense, but not the standard. Most monsters don't have any such ability other than their natural immunities, until you start running into outsiders with Greater Dispelling at will.
Statements like "fighting all day" imply more than that.
What is this "versatility?" It doesn't matter if you're low on options when all the bad guys are dead. If he's used all of the options he brought, then he should have solved all the problems. If he's only needed one option, then he's probably dipped into some other resources to cover it.
because he probably burned 3 slots dealing with something the wizard solved in 1.
So yes, your game is different. The default in a game called Dungeons and Dragons is going to be dungeons, which have multiple encounters close together, allowing you to get full mileage out of your long duration spells.
I can't respond to this without more detail. How, in your own words, do you think DnD was meant to be played?
Spellcasters are billed as less common than other classes (supported by DMG city creation rules)
against mixed groups of enemies including spellcasters as often as not.
It'd probably make a great thread on it's own, as we all love debating the hows and whys
I'm seeing more sliding scale interpretation here where it doesn't belong. Anyway, how is it that you're seeing people replenishing spells "twice as fast?" Repreparing spells multiple times per day still takes an extra 8 hour chunk out of the day. So instead of having a good 8-12 or so hours for travel and adventuring, you only have maybe 4. You can scry n' die well enough, but other than that, you aren't getting anything else done.
Still, keep in mind that the travel time at least tends to be during those portions where time is not of the essence (e.g. the enemy doesn't know you're headed to them or you've defeated them already.)
That's irrelevant? They're some of the best powers at those levels, precisely because they augment so well. That's like saying "most sorcerer spells suck, so therefore sorcerers don't have good spells." An adventuring Psion is going to have at least one or two powers that can augment into effectively 9th level spells, while the sorcerer only has the 3 that he learns. So the psion has an advantage.
but something the sorcerer can't do (have a bunch of high level effects).
And speaking of which: so why the big to-do about boosting the sorcerer without addressing that issue?
You could also get rid of those specializations you mentioned, which would do a lot to protect the sorcerer's main shtick.
You seem to be assuming that once he's used half that he falls below some magical "versatility" meter that make him useless, but that's not how it works.
Consider that this point has grown from the suggestion that sorcerers ignore the normal level caps on their spells. That doesn't change that they're still trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, likely having to burn multiple spells to get the same effect as a wizard that brought the right one.
[quote[Even with a versatile spell loadout, at least one or two of the sorcerer's staple spells are going to be underleveled and probably require multiple castings to get the same effect.[/quote]
1 or 2 levels under isn't such a big deal (and the wizard faces the same issue, as he only has a few spells from his top levels.)
Basically, the real question is how much having the "right one" is worth. Most monsters don't have some particular spell they're extraordinarily weak against, so I don't think it'd be that much.
I'm not sure what you're trying to do then. The wizard doesn't necessarily end the entire fight with those two spells. He just debuffs the enemies enough that his allies can take them, or knocks out half of them, or splits them up (or at high levels, kills some of them).
Is the plan to try and make the spells so weak that the wizard won't have room for defenses because he needs to cast 4 spells a fight to control the enemies?
But yes, making it so that he has to spend a substantial portion of his spell slots on offense if he wants to be effective is a major part of it.
Not in intent. Magic Surge doesn't let you go all-out on a boss or difficult encounter: it lets you gamble on losing the whole spell versus beating SR or making a dispel check, which isn't anything like wild surge.
Who said anything about buying 10 spells per level? You get 4 for free at each level, and maybe want 4 more. That's 27,000gp, if you want to lump it all together like that.
You say that like wizards don't have very good spellcraft scores already. It's only DC 15+spell level.
which I also think is a bit funny: shouldn't the body of information you can get by taking 10 when undistracted be a better gauge of what you already know than a random roll?
Any wizard worth the name is going to make sure they learn the spells they need
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2011-07-26, 03:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
But they don't: only the sorcerer in this example has a way to lose xp that fast, aside from death. Which is why the comparison is made to another character sacrificing themselves.
And yet the DMG indicates that being a sorcerer is a matter of talent; any character being able to take a level of sorcerer is similar to being able to assign your ability scores (or even use point-buy): A departure from realism in order to allow for a more fun gaming experience through the ability to customize your character.
How so (assuming an enemy with blind-fight or one of the other many ways to counter invisibility)?
I was referring more to the fact that in a natural environment at high levels he's a total killer against anything without a good spot check.
Who needs magic items when you can win without seeing combat, or even letting your enemy be aware of your existence?
Not true; some skills can grant just as many options as spells, if not more. It's just implicit in the skill description rather than explicit.
And from the fact that you think that's one of the few things a rogue can do without magic items, it's clear you've never seen a well-played rogue. (Neither have I, admittedly, although outside D&D some extremely impressive characters are of that sort, most notably Lord Vetinari from Discworld. But I can at least see how it would be done.)
Casters, or UMD (such as the Balor, he has UMD), or just good saves (which won't totally negate them, but will make the spells less effective.) It's not necessary (or desirable) that the spells be useless, just that they be limited enough that they don't dominate the game.
"Breath weapons and spells" is a pretty limited group to defend against, though.
Again, for a very limited selection.
Well, barring power attack. And barring adamantine-tipped arrows; they're not cheap, but a few should be affordable by level 7, much less by the levels where stoneskin is a viable tactic on a regular basis.
Unless your enemy has flying and power attack, or adamantine-tipped arrows, etc.
And then you get whacked with a lightning bolt, because you specified Fire.
And they'll be protected in ways you can't duplicate, like high AC (which is a lot harder to bypass than simply using adamantine arrows).
That's true if you're fighting on your schedule. Of course, that tends to only happen in dungeons, where there might not be enough room to fly up out of reach...
Won't help if they ready.
Or a monk shows up to totally destroy him...part of my idea is that wizards will in fact have an advantage against fighters, but a disadvantage against monks. Since fighters beat monks, that should lead to balance.
Even a melee build should have good BAB and at least enough DEX to get an AC bonus, meaning a pretty decent ranged attack.
How so?
Ah, ok. So yes, they can, although still nothing that can't be dealt with by someone who's prepared (and with wizards having those options, it can be assumed that anyone who expects to possibly have to fight wizards will be prepared at least to some extent.)
I'd also want to point out here that the game isn't supposed to be fair: the PCs aren't the underdogs, they're the home team. Standard CR assumptions have the PCs outnumbering people of their skill level 4 to 1, or facing multiple foes that are so weak they could never take a PC one on one. It's not a bad thing that wizards are awesome, because the party is supposed to be awesome. It's only bad when the wizard is making it less fun for the others, usually stealing the spotlight by beating non-casters without any help, but even that's not necessarily how it goes every time.
No, it also benefits their party members.
Then if they're at all intelligent they'll make sure to get access to it some other way. It's not so hard to find a cleric (or a rogue with UMD) for your group at higher levels.
A fighter's supposed to be quite a bit beyond "I has sword".
Of course there is. He says "I grab some sand and throw it into my opponent's eyes", and the DM ad-hocs a mechanic for the purpose. Which, based on realism, will presumably involve at least a chance of temporary blindness.
DM ad-hoc mechanics are in Core...
Or monsters with spellcasting levels (such as dragons), or NPCs (who can easily have casters in the group). Guess how many high-level monsters don't fall into one of those 3 categories?
Depends what you mean by "all day"; the term could mean continuously, or a more even distribution (perhaps due to having to keep the area safe until it's time to set up camp for the night.)
And if he's used up half of the options he brought, and then what he needs for the next fight is part of what he used up?
There should be few if any problems a wizard can solve with a single spell.
Point. Of course, fly and mirror image will still probably need renewing, as of course will Improved Invisibility.
Where hitting with a given attack (in the most general form) is primarily a question of probability rather than of evasive effects, thereby making defenses like AC important and numerous weak actions no more valuable than fewer strong actions.
But not necessarily less common among adventurers.
At least against PC-class enemies at higher levels. Essentially, PC-class enemies should have a makeup just like PC parties do.
Probably a good idea...not now, but later. Thanks.
Still, keep in mind that the travel time at least tends to be during those portions where time is not of the essence (e.g. the enemy doesn't know you're headed to them or you've defeated them already.)
In versatility, probably. Although of course he's more similar to the wizard; a wilder is probably a better comparison for a sorcerer.
Unless the sorcerer is willing to settle for some lower-level effects boosted by metamagic.
I considered it, but I figured that there wasn't enough room between "so many it's not worth adding more" and "too few to be at all useful", so instead I'm reducing the wizard's advantages and giving the sorcerer a few other useful abilities.
What would be a (not extraordinary) example of a wizard's "right one" that can do with one spell what takes a sorcerer several?
1 or 2 levels under isn't such a big deal (and the wizard faces the same issue, as he only has a few spells from his top levels.)
And why can't the sorcerer do that just as effectively?
Well, not 4 high-level spells a fight, probably more like 1 high-level and a few lower-level spells.
Enough that they'll often get it...but not always.
No, as knowledge is partially random; one person might know fact A but not fact B, while another knows fact B but not fact A.
A wizard shouldn't be absolutely reliant on any one spell (or if they are, they should take it as one of their free spells.)Last edited by Fizban; 2011-07-26 at 03:48 AM.
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2011-07-26, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Now that it's been changed, the sorcerer won't be losing XP fast at all.
I'll admit it's been ages since I last read the proper PHB and DMG fluff for the classes, so you're probably right on what's written there. I'm pretty sure there's at least one book that suggests drawing power from magical locations as an alternate origin though
Mirror Image is the big one you've left there. Spider Climb depending on environment, possibly with Protection from arrows. Blur would be on there except you've already assumed that your NPC has the perfect feat.
So when he's in the perfect setup then he's good, yeah.
And he'd better be facing a favored enemy or his damage will still be lame.
Diplomancy? Ok, if you want that to fly, go right ahead.
You're gonna need more than one sneak attack to drop a guy though, so you're really not likely to kill them before they know you're there.
But then it's just the rogue playing by himself while the party waits for him to get back.
But so do defensively-oriented wizards; if they put too much on defense the enemies can ignore them while attacking their allies.
You'll have to be more specific then, because the hard rules say no. Almost every skill has a spell that completely trumps it by 3rd level. Jump, Spider Climb, Fly, Knock, Invisibility, Silence, Charm Person, heck most spells are designed around doing something perfectly that would normally take a DC 30+ skill check.
Bluff has no spell to trump it; the closest it comes is Glibness to improve it.
Hide is trumped in many ways by Invisibility...but has fewer magical counters.
I've read plenty of anecdotes that have rogues doing cool stuff, but they invariably involve the DM letting the rogue do things that aren't actually in the rules. The kinds of things you have suggested above, such as using skills in ways that make them better than spells and throwing dirt in people's eyes to blind them.
So you're saying yes, you have lots of casters and regularly equip your NPCs with items that nullify spells.
Breath weapons and spells are the only things not covered by mirror image, miss chances, and damage reduction, so yes it matters.
It doesn't have to fully negate the attack to make it less effective: if you're cutting the damage in half, or the accuracy in half because of their power attack, you're still a heck of a lot harder to kill.
Yes AC is easier to bypass, since all melee character get higher attack bonuses, especially beefy monsters.
If they fly up and attack you in melee then you fly away and they have to chase you: if you're gaining altitude then they can't charge and you're safe.
(Or for real fun, if you have an arcane archer with a high CL in the party, antimagic field with Imbue Arrow. Hit the flying wizard with it, and he's dead.)
If you're in a narrow enough dungeon that you can't fly out of reach then you stay back in the hall where they have to get through your party's line first.
And obviously, if you're fighting enemies that flying and adamantine arrows and this and that and something else then you're going to have trouble: apparently you run every NPC group as another well equipped adventuring party.
After all, doesn't it make sense that they'd try to cut down on their vulnerabilities as well?
They don't know your exactly location: only a last known point, after which you moved a distance up to your speed in any direction.
I'll be waiting to see your monk adjustments for this.
Just like every wizard should have Mage Armor up and have at least enough dex to get an AC bonus.
That's an okay chance but it's nothing compared to their main focus, it's pretty poor damage, and it's still got the other defenses to beat.
But so long as the wizard isn't always able to deal with things, the party system is necessary.
The whole point of an adventuring party is to bring together different specialists. Combat specialist, stealth specialist, arcane specialist, divine specialist.
Have you tried making a character that can do everything? In core? Basically all you've got is the bard.
This is another style thing, but once again I bring up the dungeon aspect. The default mode has the PCs barging into places unexpected, so the enemies shouldn't be prepared.
I'd also want to point out here that the game isn't supposed to be fair
It's only bad when the wizard is making it less fun for the others, usually stealing the spotlight by beating non-casters without any help
Or when the wizard is so powerful that playing a non-wizard is a suboptimal choice. Which these fixes and boosts are also meant to prevent.
Or when it's so imbalanced that there's no challenge and therefore no fun, but that also shouldn't happen too often.
Except monsters and NPCs don't have parties. They have their broodmates and standing armies of generic warriors and whatnot. It may work as a balancing factor when everything is an adventuring party, and in character that makes quite a bit of sense, but it's not the default assumption.
I don't think I've ever seen a DnD product where almost every encounter sported a caster or two and a UMD rogue.
Praytell what then? In core they have no options outside of fighting things with weapons.
They might try tripping or grappling, but they can only go so far with those without non-core resources.
Outside of core they still don't have many options, but at least they can turn those options up to 11 and make them as effective as spells
The mechanic is "nothing happens," and the realism is "you think a trained fighter is gonna be blinded by a little dust he saw coming a mile away?"
And have absolutely nothing to do with balancing existing game mechanics. You absolutely cannot assume that DM ad-hoc is balancing some part of the game when you're writing rules to balance the game.
That said, I've thought about it and it does seem Glitterdust is a bit too much, so I'll be fixing it shortly (changing it to a Reflex save, and allowing a free Fort save DC 10 each round to remove the blindness.)
I laugh at draconic spellcasting, as should everyone. Go check the effective sorcerer level compared to the CR of the dragon. It's completely useless for anything but low level buffs.
You keep saying group when I'm saying monsters. If they party is constantly fighting other high level groups of mixed class NPCs, usually termed adventuring parties, then that's going to change how the game works.
I don't even see how this is an effective scenario. You're camping in an area so dangerous you have to remain stationary in full combat mode to survive it? What?
Then he does the same thing I've been saying: he uses other resources or he makes like a sorcerer and uses the second best option.
Funny, because that's exactly what most spells are designed to do. Spider Climb lets you climb across one impassable barrier, with one spell. Knock opens a locked door, solving the problem in one spell.
Stinking Cloud locks down enemies over a wide range, dividing and wrecking the action of an entire group of enemies so that the party can kill them easily, with a single spell.
Charm Person/Monster makes one enemy into a friend, altering the battle or gaining information/access you didn't have before, in one spell.
Just like what a sorcerer can do.
A wizard can have an effect with one spell, but rarely is one spell alone sufficient to win the battle.
Maybe, depending on how large/small the area is. Five minutes is a long time in combat rounds.
That's... not the topic I was looking for, but okay. If you want to do that then might I recommend getting rid of the evasive effects? AC is never going to beat miss chance until you get rid of miss chance (or hugely alter/buff the AC mechanics).
So why are the adventurers fighting them all the time?
Heck, the fact that they're bad people should mean that they rarely, if ever, have anyone helping them that's strong enough they weren't bullied into it!
So what is it keeping the two encounters hours apart via distance but doesn't count as travel time?
Actually the psion is indeed the comparison to the sorcerer. If you count up their spells known and disregard cantrips, they come out almost even. The wilder only has 12 powers known, so few that it is practically unplayable.
You can't have it both ways; if the psion compares well to the sorcerer in spells known, he can't also be far stronger in the same issue.
The psionic wizard analogue is the Eruidite (should be available online I think).
In any case, you're missing my point about the augmenting versus metamagic. Look at the core metamagic feats (minus quicken of course). Those effects do not turn 5th and 6th level spells into the equivalent of 9th level spells.
Huh? Not sure what you're referring to here. I was suggesting that the sorcerer should gain access to new spells at the same level as the wizard.
He can make do with lower level effects, but they frequently hit fewer targets or inflict less lethal status effects.
Because the wizard has access multiple spells, half the time of level the sorcerer can't even cast yet, and can pick those that target both the vulnerable save and have a large area and more sever penalty
After 9th level or so though, the wizard has enough spells that he can defend himself, contribute a couple spells to each fight, and still have some left over.
From 5th level again, assuming a non-perfect individual: 8 ranks, 3 int, 2 synergy, 2 masterwork item, +15 bonus total. Only needs a 3 to hit a 3rd level spell.
But this isn't trivia, this is a studied skill. This is a college course. These are the founding principles of magic, and you need to know a certain amount just to get where you are now.
And you're literally working off a copy of the spell, right in front of you.
Ah, but when you're stuck in core and there's only one spell at that level that does the job you need it to do, you make sure you get that spell.
Oh, also another couple of notes about defensive buffs and wizard vs. sorcerer:
1. Even if you can fight multiple fights before they run out, a dispel can seriously wreck your day if you only have one of everything.
2. Most of the buffs aren't self-only, so while the wizard can be better protected, the sorcerer can protect the whole party (to a somewhat lesser extent.)Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-07-26 at 01:54 PM.