DotA 2 - Valve's up and coming hat simulator

[Meta]

Ended up going to bed after iG vs. MYM, so I'm not opening the spoilers till I catch up on matches.

Anyways, when I say 4-1 I don't mean an old school turtle strat. What I mean is something closer to the way EHOME played vs. iG where you have 1 hard carry and 4 heroes constantly ganking, pushing, and generally playing aggressively and winning map control so that that carry can passively farm up. Basically something very similar to the strats run in 6.48, or what Nv.Int would do early last year when they'd have Kuro, Demon, Fear, and Puppey ganking all over the map and Merlini free farming.

This sounds like every strategy where you have 1 hard carry. That doesn't make it a 4-1. Really the numbers are used to indicate lanes more than anything so a 4-1 is really just one empty lane, one 4 man push lane, and 1 farm lane. But I digress. Medusa isn't as dominant as she was in any meta. And believe me, I know metas :P

[Suedars]

Stop shifting the goalposts of every single argument. I never said that Medusa was dominant in the current meta, just that she's still a viable competitive pick.

And no, a 4-1 has never meant putting 4 heroes in one lane with a solo in another.

Plus how does the aggressive 4-1 sound like every single strategy where you're running a hard carry when you just mentioned LGD's turtle 4-1 like 3 posts ago? That's completely irrelevant though, since if anything the fact that it's an extremely commonplace strategy just further helps my initial point.

[Meta]

You mentioned medusa out of 3 heroes that were obviously missing from DotA. Lycan and Invoker are great picks. Medusa not so much.

The number system you first referred to is absolutely for lane. 2-1-2, 1-1-3, 1-1-1-2, and 4-1 are all indicating where heroes are laning or generally residing. It's not for team makeup like I think you think it is (not 4 support and 1 hard carry.) They're not static placements, but that is definitely what they refer too. You mention teams pushing, farming, and having map control as what defines your hypothetical 4-1. Every strategy should address these points. In that way, what you said is excessively general.

To clarify:

You said: 4-1 = pushing, map control, carry farming, ganking

In reality: Any good strat with a hard carry = pushing, map control, carry farming, ganking.


You said: 4-1 = 4 supports protecting a very hard carry like medusa

In reality: 4-1 = A 4 man lane (probably for push) and 1 in another lane.

EDIT: Since this is a huge derail, I'll simply sum up that I believe you are a little behind on the current meta, but that it's not dreadfully important anyways.

[Suedars]

No, 4-1 uses similar labeling to lane numbering, but that's not what it's denoting. I mean, LGD became famous for running a 4-1, but they definitely weren't constantly running quad lanes.

And a 4-1 doesn't have to be the sort of aggressive ganking strat that I'm talking about. It can be the defensive LGD style turtle where you mostly cede map control and have 4 heroes turtle your towers and defend your jungle to clear room for your 1 hard carry to freefarm the pushed lanes and jungle.

[Suedars]

Back to Slardar, I'm watching Scythe vs. Na'Vi g1 (I'm about 5 minutes in to the game), and Scythe's Slardar pick looks nonsensical. What do they need him for? Initiation? They've got Tide. An anti-carry? Na'vi doesn't have a single hero that stands out as the main threat that needs to be shut down. A chaser? They've already got VS, Windrunner, and Weaver.

[Tazar]

Slardar did turn out to be a solid pick in Na'vi vs. EHOME Game 3. And that Pudge pick game 2...just awesome.

Upon careful review of Enigma's voice, I'm fairly certain that he is one of the heroes voiced by Jon St. John. Anyone else getting that feeling? Engima sounds very like Duke Nukem.

[Suedars]

Pudge was a fun pick and all, but was a major reason why they lost that game. It seems almost like they were just showboating with that pick, but the million (well, technically 750,000) dollars on the line makes that less likely.

[Tazar]

Pudge was a fun pick and all, but was a major reason why they lost that game. It seems almost like they were just showboating with that pick, but the million (well, technically 750,000) dollars on the line makes that less likely.

I got the impression that it was a) a bit of fanservice and b) an actual attempt at surprising EHOME with an off-the-wall pick, as EHOME certainly had several heroes susceptible to getting owned by Pudge ganks.

Pudge actually did quite well, so I'd say that while he might well have lost them the game, overall it worked out pretty decently.

Plus, he soaked a Doom like every teamfight, even lategame. I was surprised Luci kept Dooming him, was there some kind of high-level strategy there that I was missing? Didn't really seem worth it for preventing Dismember alone when you had Viper and PotM hanging around.

[Keld Denar]

I'd imagine that if you Doom a Pudge with Rot toggled on, he's silenced and can't turn it back. Then you get Doom + Rot damage, except that the flaw in the plan is that Pudge usually stacks magic resistance so Doom + Rot is only doing about as much damage as Doom alone would have done on a beefcake Str hero.

I just watched MYR vs MUFC...I was crazy surprised by that game. MYR had much better control on the game, including FB on Veno (and 2 other good kills on Veno early), but Chen + Prophet on the multilane push was rediculous. I was certain with the way that AM was getting farmed up, he was gonna be a force, but then he bought a S&Y and a BKB. Isn't S&Y an orb which would turn off his mana break? And BKB on a character that is already highly resistant to magic who also has one of the best escapes? I'm just confused by that. I'd say that AMs build lost that game, combined with MUFC's superior lane control for early cash.

[Meta]

I'd imagine that if you Doom a Pudge with Rot toggled on, he's silenced and can't turn it back. Then you get Doom + Rot damage, except that the flaw in the plan is that Pudge usually stacks magic resistance so Doom + Rot is only doing about as much damage as Doom alone would have done on a beefcake Str hero.

I just watched MYR vs MUFC...I was crazy surprised by that game. MYR had much better control on the game, including FB on Veno (and 2 other good kills on Veno early), but Chen + Prophet on the multilane push was rediculous. I was certain with the way that AM was getting farmed up, he was gonna be a force, but then he bought a S&Y and a BKB. Isn't S&Y an orb which would turn off his mana break? And BKB on a character that is already highly resistant to magic who also has one of the best escapes? I'm just confused by that. I'd say that AMs build lost that game, combined with MUFC's superior lane control for early cash.

SnY recently became non-orb. Still, I'd almost always want manta over SnY on AM

[potatocubed]

Upon careful review of Enigma's voice, I'm fairly certain that he is one of the heroes voiced by Jon St. John. Anyone else getting that feeling? Engima sounds very like Duke Nukem.

"It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum, but I don't have feet... or a mouth."

[Keld Denar]

Oh, so S&Y is actually decent again? Thats good news! Without the orb, its not a bad item. HP for an agi hero or AS for a Str hero aren't bad choices, and the movement speed is fun for certain chase heros, but the orb effect was annoying, almost to the point where it moved the item from decent to terribad.

Manta is ok, but you almost need something else to really go with it. S&Y is now decent all by itself, and plus its really easy to build.

[Tazar]

"It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum, but I don't have feet... or a mouth."

I really do encourage anyone who hasn't already done so to boot up a No Commentary game with Engima, listen to his quote on pick, and then listen to some of his ingame lines. It's gotta be Jon St. John.

I'd imagine that if you Doom a Pudge with Rot toggled on, he's silenced and can't turn it back. Then you get Doom + Rot damage, except that the flaw in the plan is that Pudge usually stacks magic resistance so Doom + Rot is only doing about as much damage as Doom alone would have done on a beefcake Str hero.

Yeah, but even if Rot is turned on the fact remains that dooming Pudge instead of, say, Viper, seems kinda weird. Unless they wanted to keep Pudge from Dismembering a BKB'd hero? In that case, I guess I could see it. Still feels like a bit of a waste, though.

[Suedars]

Yeah, but even if Rot is turned on the fact remains that dooming Pudge instead of, say, Viper, seems kinda weird. Unless they wanted to keep Pudge from Dismembering a BKB'd hero? In that case, I guess I could see it. Still feels like a bit of a waste, though.

I think that was the key bit, since Storm had a BKB and was carrying them pretty hard.

The main problem with Pudge was that he just couldn't gank as frequently as they needed from a ganker due to his mana issues and complete dependency on his hook.

I can't really blame them too much for it though, they were a game up on EHOME and were in much better form. The surprise factor that you mention definitely played a role in it I'm guessing, since Chinese teams tend not to prepare at all for unusual strategies and picks, so it had a decent chance of just giving them an easy win, at which point they're up 2-0 without even playing a real game.

[Inhuman Bot]

Oh, so S&Y is actually decent again? Thats good news! Without the orb, its not a bad item. HP for an agi hero or AS for a Str hero aren't bad choices, and the movement speed is fun for certain chase heros, but the orb effect was annoying, almost to the point where it moved the item from decent to terribad.

Manta is ok, but you almost need something else to really go with it. S&Y is now decent all by itself, and plus its really easy to build.

I don't think SnY was ever a BAD item.

None of it's parts were more then 1k gold, so it's safe to farm, and progresses you to Orb of Skadi.

[Meta]

The problem with SnY is that it's in this grey area where it's not good enough to be one of the final 6 items a carry has, like manta, bfly, etc. but it's too expensive to get really quickly, so it doesn't fulfill the vanguard, midas, etc. role either. Poor SnY is caught between worlds.

There are a lot of great uses for Manta. Scouting, pushing, and diversion (making doom blow his ult on a solo illusion is so satisfying) are the most obvious, but there are a lot of neat tricks with it. Did you know if you get silenced by NS and then use manta, you're no longer silenced? This works with some other things too, and can be used to dodge some stuns. Plus with AM you're stealing a lot more mana.

[Keld Denar]

I never said it was bad...just that you need some other schtick to go with it, ala AM with Mana Break. You do have a good point on breaking silences though...that is a pretty useful trait.

So, if I was building a Clinkz from level 1, what would you recommend as initial gear past Treads? Would you farm a Yasha to build Manta, or would you build an Oblivion Staff to get to Orchid.

Just curious, cause Clinkz is one of my favorite heros.

[Grif]

The problem with SnY is that it's in this grey area where it's not good enough to be one of the final 6 items a carry has, like manta, bfly, etc. but it's too expensive to get really quickly, so it doesn't fulfill the vanguard, midas, etc. role either. Poor SnY is caught between worlds.

There are a lot of great uses for Manta. Scouting, pushing, and diversion (making doom blow his ult on a solo illusion is so satisfying) are the most obvious, but there are a lot of neat tricks with it. Did you know if you get silenced by NS and then use manta, you're no longer silenced? This works with some other things too, and can be used to dodge some stuns. Plus with AM you're stealing a lot more mana.

I find SnY is a great placeholder if you find your team somehow at a disadvantage and you need something NOW! to help even the score. I know it has helped me contribute to the team which I wouldn't otherwise had I stuck to cheaper/more expensive items. (This is as a carry hero. Disclaimer: My carry sucks to an extreme degree so my experience may be limited to lower levels of play.)

[Meta]

SnY is definitely fantastic in lower skill games. The main reason is that all the parts are cheap, so if you're csing poorly (say an average of 2 a minute) than the fact that the biggest part of manta is 2100 and the largest part of sny is 1000 is a really big deal. Not as much in high level play.

As for a clinkz build goes, let me preface by saying I don't play clinkz ever. My general advice for any carry hero is vanguard to yasha isn't terrible. You don't need to make manta right away, but yasha is a solid and relatively cheap item to have for awhile.

Does clinks have 522 ms when he's windrunning with treads? That would devalue yasha a bit. Magic wand is helpful 90% of the time as a starter item. I have a hard time assigning an item build without considering what the opposing team has too. I would say good general advice would be to work on orchid immediately after treads though. If the opposing team leans strongly to either physical damage or magic damage a pms/vanguard or cloak/hood could help. Depends on your skill level too. Keeping slots for wand and tp scrolls of course. Given clinks' speed and need to farm like crazy, midas could even have a spot. Overkill with strafe maybe though.

I've seen sheepstick recommended (who doesn't want invisible lightning fast disabler?) and that's kind of a neat idea. Helps get around blademail which is a nightmare for clinkz.

EDIT: If you could get someone your team to get a medallion and a diffusal blade those would really help you. Medallion for the obvious -armor and diffusal because it gives you a nice slow target and in a pinch can remove track, amplify damage, etc.

Ult lvl 6 satyrs if you can.

[Cynan Machae]

http://games.ign.com/articles/118/1189750p1.html

Some of the IGN comment made me laugh pretty hard... but it's IGN.

Also, related to the voice acting that someone mentionned earlier, I have to say that I was quite impressed by a lot of that and especially all those death/kills quotes by the heroes. Some even have specific quotes versuses specific heroes :P

A list of some of those quotes on TL:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=257775
And the topic where most of them were taken from on PlayDota:
http://www.playdota.com/forums/51575...ange-land-%60/

[Suedars]

Chen's death quote is an awesome nod to Maelk, but after the finals it seems like it'd be more fitting for it to reference Puppey.

[Tazar]

http://games.ign.com/articles/118/1189750p1.html

Some of the IGN comment made me laugh pretty hard... but it's IGN.

Also, related to the voice acting that someone mentionned earlier, I have to say that I was quite impressed by a lot of that and especially all those death/kills quotes by the heroes. Some even have specific quotes versuses specific heroes :P

A list of some of those quotes on TL:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=257775
And the topic where most of them were taken from on PlayDota:
http://www.playdota.com/forums/51575...ange-land-%60/

God, I love how salty all the kids are in the comments over there.

It never ceases to amaze me how DotA can be such a massively played international phenomenon and yet remain so "underground". 22 million players, more than even CoD, and yet all the console fanboys raging on IGN have never heard of it.

It's pretty hilarious, really. Their rage is quite amusing.

The quotes are indeed awesome, though I think Windrunner's is "Why do you hate gingers...so..." and not "Why do you hate gingers' souls". Absolutely hilarious.

[Inhuman Bot]

As a wise man once said; Dota is Amitabh Bachhan. He wins a poll for most recognized worldwide actor and Americans yell "wtf that's not brad Pitt" (brad Pitt is MW3)

[potatocubed]

The quotes are indeed awesome, though I think Windrunner's is "Why do you hate gingers...so..." and not "Why do you hate gingers' souls". Absolutely hilarious.

My favourite is her kill quote "Could be worse - oh wait, no it couldn't." That made me laugh out loud when I heard it.

[Bayar]

Wow, I never realised just how MUCH americans like consoles and shun PC's.

[Cynan Machae]

My favorite is Windrunner getting killed by Mirana's arrow:

WR: Lucky shot!
Mirana: That was skill... not luck!

[Tazar]

My favorite is Windrunner getting killed by Mirana's arrow:

WR: Lucky shot!
Mirana: That was skill... not luck!

Pretty much everything Windrunner says is gold. One of my favorites was, upon killing somebody was, to quote Potatocubed,

My favourite is her kill quote "Could be worse - oh wait, no it couldn't." That made me laugh out loud when I heard it.

Windrunner becoming a cocky ass is one of the best things in the entire game. I eagerly await hearing the inevitable Lina/CM rivalry lines.

Wow, I never realised just how MUCH americans like consoles and shun PC's.

Now now, let's not generalize based on a biased sampling of anonymous commenters!

PC gaming is alive and well in the US, it's just that more people play consoles because it's more accessible as well as being perceived as more socially acceptable and "normal".

Bear in mind that if the same article was posted to PCGamer instead of a website which holds much closer ties to consoles the comments would likely be quite different.

[Bayar]

Now now, let's not generalize based on a biased sampling of anonymous commenters!

PC gaming is alive and well in the US, it's just that more people play consoles because it's more accessible as well as being perceived as more socially acceptable and "normal".

Bear in mind that if the same article was posted to PCGamer instead of a website which holds much closer ties to consoles the comments would likely be quite different.

Yes I know, but for someone living in a country where consoles are ridiculously expensive and are usually bought only to show off how rich you are, finding out that somewhere else people are not that accustomed to PC gaming is...quite a shock, even with the "quality" of most IGN posters.

[Tazar]

Yes I know, but for someone living in a country where consoles are ridiculously expensive and are usually bought only to show off how rich you are, finding out that somewhere else people are not that accustomed to PC gaming is...quite a shock, even with the "quality" of most IGN posters.

Again, I wouldn't say "people" as a whole in America aren't accustomed to PC gaming. DotA itself here is rather a black sheep even among the PC gaming community; it's relatively "underground" in that it receives zero advertising and publicity thanks to its status as a WCIII custom map. This is evidenced by the fact that you've got LoL players calling Traxex "Ashe" after watching the DOTA2 trailer. Trax has been around for years, but because DotA doesn't have any advertising or promotion you've got people thinking she's a rip-off of an LoL hero who is in fact based on her design.

DotA's pretty underground here even among PC gamers; note that plenty of people knew what, say, Diablo was, even if they hadn't heard of DotA. We've got no real Internet or LAN cafe scene that I've ever seen, and so awareness of the game can't be spread that way, either; it's solely by word of mouth.

That said, I can appreciate that it definitely would be a change if consoles are the "high-end" gaming option wherever you live, as that's pretty much the opposite here (not that PCs are automatically high-end, though).

[toasty]

Again, I wouldn't say "people" as a whole in America aren't accustomed to PC gaming. DotA itself here is rather a black sheep even among the PC gaming community; it's relatively "underground" in that it receives zero advertising and publicity thanks to its status as a WCIII custom map. This is evidenced by the fact that you've got LoL players calling Traxex "Ashe" after watching the DOTA2 trailer. Trax has been around for years, but because DotA doesn't have any advertising or promotion you've got people thinking she's a rip-off of an LoL hero who is in fact based on her design.

As far as I can tell, living in a college dorm, the only person who really cared much about "real" PC games, CounterStrike, DotA, SCII, etc, was me and a guy who grew up in Malaysia (I grew up in Asia too, what a surprise).

edit: Though I do admit that I knew 2 guys that were insane about Japanese Arcade games. But the rest? Its all about Halo: Reach!

DotA's pretty underground here even among PC gamers; note that plenty of people knew what, say, Diablo was, even if they hadn't heard of DotA. We've got no real Internet or LAN cafe scene that I've ever seen, and so awareness of the game can't be spread that way, either; it's solely by word of mouth.

I suppose this is true. In fact, its one of the worst things about America, if you ask me. Most of my favorite memories my high school years were Friday afternoons when me and my friends would play DotA and CounterStrike for 2-4 hours straight. Then we'd spend another 30 minutes/hour just hanging out, smoking and talking. So much fun.

What do you do here in the US? You play in your room, alone, online, maybe with Vent/Mumble/Teamspeak. Its fun, but its not the same.