DotA 2 - Valve's up and coming hat simulator

[Sila Prirode]

And what if all heroes gain bonus damage only from Str, and not their respective main stats? Because it makes sense, Int makes you smarter, Agi faster, and Str hits harder. I would call that objectively bad design, given the current status of game.
Obviously I used a streched out example to illustrate, but I hope you get my point.

[Rhydeble]

actually that would just make all the heroes strength heroes, thus changing the game. for one thing, it'd make mages less lategame capable, because all those agi-types would be buying hitpoints now.

And no, it does not make sense. For someone wielding an axe? yes. for someone wielding a bow? maybe. for someone manipulating arcane energy to send out shards of ice towards his foes? NO.

[Sila Prirode]

actually that would just make all the heroes strength heroes, thus changing the game. for one thing, it'd make mages less lategame capable, because all those agi-types would be buying hitpoints now.

Which would be bad for game, since Agi are now almost Str heroes, Str is unchanged, and Int gets worse. And this isn't some sort of "equal footing" FPS, diversity is the main point of game.

And no, it does not make sense. For someone wielding an axe? yes. for someone wielding a bow? maybe. for someone manipulating arcane energy to send out shards of ice towards his foes? NO.

And what if there was a +20 Str Magical Staff of Power, with a description like this: "This staff coats your attacks with magical energy, and also hardens you against enemy attacks." It kinda makes more sense, because you have an obviously magical enhacement on you, instead of carrying around 5 different weapons and one pair of boots.

[Winterwind]

You know, even though I felt at the end of that discussion my statements had been distorted to a ridiculous degree and my opinion misrepresented utterly, I'd just stayed silent because I figured people in this thread did not want this debate, but enough is enough, because that post by Rhydeble is frankly just insulting.

I have to ask, what is so funny about that one?

I'm rather curious to know myself...

Look, we've known from the start of this thread that there's people who worship LoL and everything that comes out of riots offices while hating on dota because someone told them denying didn't make sense (neither do respawn-timers), but can we please not talk about that HERE, this is the Dota2-thread, not the LoL-Dota flamewar discussion.

1. I was not making an argument for the sake of "LoL is better" - I hardly brought LoL up at all, at least in my arguments. My arguments for what I think are bad design decisions in DotA were perfectly stand-alone and would work just fine in a world where there was no LoL at all; indeed, my opinion of DotA was precisely the same before I'd ever played LoL (and actually, I was not interested in LoL for a very long time because I assumed it shared the same perceived design flaws with DotA). I'm rather offended by your attempts to paint me as some kind of Riot-LoL-fanboy.
2. ...though not as much as by your attempt to make it seem as if I was unable to arrive at my own conclusions independently. I'm perfectly capable of analyzing things and arriving at the conclusion that they are bad myself, thank you, without people telling me they are.
3. Nice job reducing my arguments to "denyin iz baaad, durrrr". If only I had presented an actual argument for why I think it's bad, or if I had brought up a whole ton of other points that I actually consider significantly more important than that, that have nothing to do with denying at all. Oh wait. I did.
4. If you don't want this discussion, why do you bring it up after eight pages of nobody participating in it then?

Probably the fact he called what was his opinion a fact.

...No, I did not, unless you consider the statement that there is such a thing as objectively bad design to be an opinion.

I thought I'd explained what I think we all can agree upon is objectively bad design, and at the time I don't recall anybody disagreeing with that: Design choices that are "counter-intuitive, non-engaging to the player, distracting from more intuitive/fun/engaging stuff to do, and/or frustrating to play with or, most crucially, against". I probably should have added "without offering some major advantage in return", though.

Want an example? I'll make it fictitious, so it doesn't end up being an attack on DotA.

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Imagine there was a hero whose abilities were such: (Intelligence Hero, melee. Low Strength, low Agility, high Intelligence gain on level-up.)
1) Dodge 20/25/30/35%.
2. Critical Strike (15%), x1.25/1.75/2.25/2.75
3. Magic Resistance 20/25/30/35%
4(ult). Adds 15/30/45 Intelligence.

Why do I think this is bad? For one, it's non-engaging - it doesn't have any active skills at all, which means that rather than having choices, weighing options, and actually frantically trying to use that one skill, get in range to use it, whatever, to actually do stuff, the player is reduced to right clicks and attacks. The wealth of play is greatly diminished in comparison to a hero like, oh, I dunno, let's say Puck, who has skills that actually

Secondly, it's double non-engaging, because its skills are not only passives, they are boring passives that, while they increase the effectiveness of the hero, do not actually do anything beyond that to make the hero more unique - they are just stat-boosts, no more. To make it worse, they can be emulated with items. Imagine a skill like, say... "Whenever you're hit, if you haven't attacked in the last 2 seconds, there is a 25% chance you are teleported a short distance into the direction you are currently facing". That's a passive skill, too, but at least it's something special, something unique, that can be used for a strategic advantage and sets this hero apart from others.

Thirdly, it's for the most part non-synergistic - it being Intelligence, with these per-level attribute-gains, makes it too fragile to effectively engage at melee range (as its health pool is too low for those multiplicative defensive passives to have as much of an effect as would be necessary to keep it alive), and since it has no mana-using spells, one major advantage of being an Intelligence hero - the large mana pool - is completely wasted. Also, its skills only have the very basic synergy of making it more effective at fighting, but lack any deep synergy where one skill actively affects another (example for the latter: Death Knight's Death Coil has a health cost, so that it can be used to detonate his own Aphotic Shield).

And of course, if you feel any of these accusations are false - that this hero is engaging, that its spells are not boring, that it is synergistic - that is perfectly debatable. That being non-engaging, boring or non-synergistic is bad design is, I think,

Want even more objectively bad design? Change the hero to Agility or such (but keep the gains in Str, Agi and Int as they are now). Now the ultimate does virtually nothing at all, the attribute gains have become even less synergistic with the champion, and it has lost the one potential advantage it had, namely that it offered itself for a rather unusual item selection for the type of hero it was, which if nothing else might at least have made it more interesting.

(And before someone asks, no, I don't think DotA has heroes that are anywhere near this badly designed.)

Now, whether DotA is guilty of those aforementioned objectively bad design choices, that is an opinion. I think it is, and demonstrably so, and I stated that, but I never claimed that to be a fact. That is perfectly debatable.

...Or at least, such was my intent. Whether it came across clearly or not, that's up to you to decide, I guess. If it did not, that's probably my fault, and I apologize for that.

[Tono]

Moving away from the dead horse, so we have any idea of when the beta will open up?

[Cynan Machae]

Following the international, Gabe Newell stated in an interview that the closed beta should start in approximately 3 weeks. Following that (now idea how long), there should be an open beta. So it should be pretty soon.

[Keld Denar]

...did it work?

Like a charm. I have Frozen Throne back in action and played a couple of pubs on USEast tonight. Went 15-2 as Clinkz in my first game, and I was 0-0 with 3 assist as Slardar lvl 7 when I lost connection to all of BNet. Was too bad too, I got lucky at level 2, pulled a set of mud golems to the creep up top and last hit both of them for a full level boost. Crazy. There was someone top with that new firbolg hero which worked out really nice on one of my assists. He snowballed us both and when it broke, I splashed and by the time he was unstunned, he was quite dead.

I play under the moniker "aintnoyooper", if anyone wants to add me to their friends list.

[Winterwind]

Like a charm.

Wonderful! Glad to have been of service.

[Inhuman Bot]

...No, I did not, unless you consider the statement that there is such a thing as objectively bad design to be an opinion.

I meant in that one case, not in general.

[Inhuman Bot]

Eul got hired.

[Daverin]

Wait, do they mean as in DotA, not Allstars?

[toasty]

Wait, do they mean as in DotA, not Allstars?

What? DotA and DotA Allstars have been synonymous for as long as I have been aware of DotA (4 years now)

[Suedars]

What? DotA and DotA Allstars have been synonymous for as long as I have been aware of DotA (4 years now)

DotA Allstars came about a little bit after the transition to Frozen Throne. The original Reign of Chaos DotA made by Eul predates Allstars. Eul didn't update the map for Frozen Throne, so a bunch of offshoots with their own heroes and gameplay differences popped up shortly after the expansion came out. Allstars took some of the more popular heroes from the various versions, giving it its name.

[Cynan Machae]

A lot of the hero models/hero skills have seen some changes since the International, and someone who got access to the closed beta has posted quite some screens (supposedly the guy who made the site http://www.dota2feedback.com)


http://www.playdota.com/forums/53704...ange-ancienta/
Some of the changes are quite interesting, I really like the new SF

[Keld Denar]

Who won? I didn't look. I should probably go watch the replay of the final bout.

ION, I've played a few rounds of DotA since Winterwind told me about using my CD Key to DL WC3 off the blizzard site. Damn I'm rusty. My Bane Elemental skillz still kick ass, though.

[Suedars]

Who won? I didn't look. I should probably go watch the replay of the final bout.

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Na'Vi beat EHOME in a surprisingly close final series.

And by surprisingly close I mean EHOME were the first opponents not to just get instantly steamrolled by Na'Vi. The final match score was still 3-1.

[Tazar]

Plus, you gotta love their amazing pick in the first round.

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I think everyone watching with me erupted in cheers when they picked Pudge. So amazing.

[Suedars]

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As fun of a pick as Pudge was, it was probably the biggest factor in Na'Vi losing that game.

[Keld Denar]

Well, I had a couple of good Axe games last night. Got FB in both games (one normal, one -EM) and finished both with a positive score.

My build is Helix, Taunt, Helix, Taunt, Helix, Cull, Helix, Taunt, Taunt, Stats, Cull, Stats, Stats, Stats, Stats, Cull, then the DoT and round out stats. I start with a shield, 6 tangos, 1 mana pot, and 2 branches, getting boots, Ring of Health, and finishing Vanguard ASAP, then getting a dagger. From there, it depends on opponents and how I'm doing, whether I get a blademail or skip straight to Heart.

Is this pretty normal? I've had success in the past getting some early game kills with the DoT, but good players can last-hit well enough that spamming the DoT doesn't really get you anywere, while walking into the middle of a group of creep with an enemy melee and taunting so you have 3-4 creep, you have a really good chance of spinning 2-3 times in the 2 seconds of taunt, plus taunt allows your lane mate to attack the other player as well, which is really nice if you lane with a ranged hero like Krob, Lion, or Windrunner.

[Suedars]

Yes, Axe's DoT is completely worthless.

[Inhuman Bot]

Hero portraits:
http://i.imgur.com/aPfxY.jpg

With labels:
http://i.imgur.com/3vD0t.jpg

Here's a youtube channel with the leaked sounds from DotA 2: (Spoilers if you want to hear them ingame!)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Dota2sounds

So much care and attention..

[Meta]

Hero portraits:
http://i.imgur.com/aPfxY.jpg

With labels:
http://i.imgur.com/3vD0t.jpg

Here's a youtube channel with the leaked sounds from DotA 2: (Spoilers if you want to hear them ingame!)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Dota2sounds

So much care and attention..

Thank you for posting this, sir.

[Cynan Machae]

Some more are there

http://www.youtube.com/user/Submitr?feature=mhee

God some of those voices are so epic

[Grif]

I'm going to just leave this here.

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[Inhuman Bot]

I'm going to just leave this here.

Spell Placeholder Icons

King Leoric's ultimate icon is so insanely fitting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy1WJxrmxfk&hd=1

Why is this so captivating?seriously though, ****ty wizard

Zeus doesn't like it when people try to cast without mana.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLLXlyN6BmY&t=3m47s

Also, apparently the hero bios got leaked
http://www.playdota.com/forums/54062...king-tutorial/

They match up with some of the soundfiles, at least.

[Inhuman Bot]

http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/commen..._wizard_found/

****ty Wizard: Not what you were expecting!

[Cynan Machae]

http://blog.dota2.com/2011/09/i-said-good-day-sir/

Good news :)

[Suedars]

The next year in Beta?

Goddamnit Valve.

[Keld Denar]

Anyone get a key yet?

Or better yet, anyone got an EXTRA key for me? :)

[Tazar]

Juggernaut got enabled in yesterday's patch!