DotA 2 - Valve's up and coming hat simulator

[Suedars]

Got any citations for that? From the official DotA page, IceFrog (or whoever wrote the FAQ) gives credit to Eul, Meian, Guinsoo, and Neichus.

Eul is acknowledged as the creator and founder of DotA, but I assume it's much changed from when he started it.

It's rather hard to get citations given that this is stuff that happened 8 years ago, before there were forums for most of this stuff (and Pendragon decided to turn the original dota forums into an ad for LoL to show his support for the DotA community that he and Guinsoo so highly regard).

But anyways, Phantom Lancer and Furion were both in Eul's original DotA. Both were tweaked by Guinsoo, but the hero concepts and even some of their skills were lifted from other people's maps. Tiny was taken from another version of DotA, I forget which.

And of course IceFrog credits people who had worked on the map before. Guinsoo was the one who stole the map and refused to credit others.

They can tell me that I'm a smart man and should continue to do theorycrafting for my team of course. Now please, stop harassing me. (Why are you harassing me? Because, like I said, Xin Zhao is 100% different than Jarvan. Ask ANYONE I play with: efdf, arb, yocham, faulty, sirro, zach, arcanoi. All of those guys? Good players. Especially efdf. They'll all agree with me. The fact that Xin Zhao is "tanky dps" means nothing. In lane, in teamfights, in jungle (well maybe not in jungle...) he's completely different than Jarvan)

I might have missed something in the thread, but I think you're shifting the goalposts of the argument here. The initial claim was that DotA has too many spells that are clones of each other, to which it was pointed out that a lot of LoL heroes also have cloned spells. Claiming that that's ok because the heroes with cloned spells play very differently is an entirely different argument, and can also be applied equally well to DotA.

[Winterwind]

I might have missed something in the thread, but I think you're shifting the goalposts of the argument here. The initial claim was that DotA has too many spells that are clones of each other, to which it was pointed out that a lot of LoL heroes also have cloned spells. Claiming that that's ok because the heroes with cloned spells play very differently is an entirely different argument, and can also be applied equally well to DotA.

Incidentally precisely a good example of one argument I'd adamantly oppose and one argument I'd absolutely agree with and concede to.

There may be many skill shots and many auto-hitting spells in LoL, too, but those pretty much all have something other than just numbers and graphics differentiating them - some don't stun, they silence, root to the place, go back and forth with a chance to hit twice, have AoE damage, cause the hero that cast the spell to move to its target, cause the target to move to the hero that cast the spell, etc. The number of spells in LoL that are literally the same mechanically, differentiated only by numbers, visuals and nothing else is very small. The DotA spells I listed in that post are literally just auto-hitting damage spells with an optional stun, differentiated solely by their numbers and visuals.

I agree though that this is not necessarily saying much, because if the same spell works completely differently in conjunction with the rest of the hero's kit, it's perfectly fine to have the same spell again. Now, whether that's actually the case for DotA is another debate entirely, but I don't think there's much point in getting into that.

[Suedars]

Incidentally precisely a good example of one argument I'd adamantly oppose and one argument I'd absolutely agree with and concede to.

There may be many skill shots and many auto-hitting spells in LoL, too, but those pretty much all have something other than just numbers and graphics differentiating them - some don't stun, they silence, root to the place, go back and forth with a chance to hit twice, have AoE damage, cause the hero that cast the spell to move to its target, cause the target to move to the hero that cast the spell, etc. The number of spells in LoL that are literally the same mechanically, differentiated only by numbers, visuals and nothing else is very small. The DotA spells I listed in that post are literally just auto-hitting damage spells with an optional stun, differentiated solely by their numbers and visuals.

I agree though that this is not necessarily saying much, because if the same spell works completely differently in conjunction with the rest of the hero's kit, it's perfectly fine to have the same spell again. Now, whether that's actually the case for DotA is another debate entirely, but I don't think there's much point in getting into that.

A number of the skills you listed in DotA are differentiated though. Storm Bolt is an AE. Dragon Tail is melee range, does minimal damage (it barely qualifies as a nuke) but has a lengthy stun. Lightning Bolt reveals the area around the target. Laguna Blade and Finger of Death both deal huge damage (basically Veigar's ultimate compared to his q) and don't really fall into the same category of "basic nukes".

[Cynan Machae]

There may be many skill shots and many auto-hitting spells in LoL, too, but those pretty much all have something other than just numbers and graphics differentiating them - some don't stun, they silence, root to the place, go back and forth with a chance to hit twice, have AoE damage, cause the hero that cast the spell to move to its target, cause the target to move to the hero that cast the spell, etc. The number of spells in LoL that are literally the same mechanically, differentiated only by numbers, visuals and nothing else is very small. The DotA spells I listed in that post are literally just auto-hitting damage spells with an optional stun, differentiated solely by their numbers and visuals.

That's were your wrong WW, if that it's the basis of your argument, like Suedars said they are as much different then those LoL spells. The only two spell on that list that I would agree are pretty similar would be Lina's ult and Lion Finger of Death. (and they are different from the others spells because they are very high damage/mana cost spells with pretty high cooldowns ultimates)

From your list:

Spoiler

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List of spells that are in DotA right now that are just "click on the opponent, opponent suffers X damage. There may be a stun applied":
- Rogue Knight's Storm Bolt (AoE damage and Stun)
- Dragon Knight's Dragon Tail (melee range, low mana almost no damage but long stun)
- Moon Rider's Lucent Beam (synergy with ultimate, ministun to interrupt channeling)
- Vengeful Spirit's Magic Missile (single target stun)
- Bounty Hunter's Shuriken Toss (ministun to interrupt channeling)
- Lord of Olympus' Lightning Bolt (reveal invisibility in an AoE)
- Slayer's Laguna Blade (high damage ultimate)
- Ogre Magi's Fireblast (constant stun duration regardless of level, purpose of this spell is getting the multicast, else it's a subpar spell with low everything by itself)
- Demon Witch's Finger of Death (high damage ultimate)

Spells that are virtually the same with only minimal modifications thereof:
- Centaur Warchief's Double Edge (auto hitting single target damage with no stun. Only change is that it costs life in addition to mana to cast.) (ministun to interrupt channeling and melee range as well)
- Chaos Knight's Chaos Bolt (only change is that the damage and stun duration are both random, in itself bad design for needlessly introducing chance into a game of strategy and micro skill) (agreed with that)
- Skeleton King's Hellfire Blast (only change is that after the stun, there is a brief period of slow in addition) (slow and damage)
- Crystal Maiden's Frostbite (only change is that the damage is dealt over the duration of the stun, rather than instantly. Unless it still allows to cast spells when inside this, which as I recall it does not; if it does, remove it from this list.) (it stop movement and attacks, you can still cast spells. also, when used on creep, summons and neutrals, duration is 10 seconds)
- Holy Knight's Test of Faith (auto hitting single target damage with no stun. Only change is that the damage is random, but of pure-type.) (pure type damage make it impossible to reduce it with magic armor or anything)

My experience on LoL is pretty limited, but from what I've played I'm pretty sure you could draw a very similar list with slows/snares instead of stuns

[Inhuman Bot]

... I would continue to argue with you if I felt that it was worth talking about. But this is the DotA2 thread, not the LoL thread. Suffice to say, you've managed to twist things in such a way that it looks like you're right, but you're wrong. That might be what it looks like is gonna happen, but the theorycrafting behind these two heroes is completely different.

What I'm getting at is no ur wrong!!! ! ! is the worst argument ever.

[toasty]

What I'm getting at is no ur wrong!!! ! ! is the worst argument ever.

Its actually an appeal to authority if you want to be really finicky. The bottom line is I don't care to argue about this, especially in the DotA thread.

[Rhydeble]

Its actually an appeal to authority if you want to be really finicky. The bottom line is I don't care to argue about this, especially in the DotA thread.

Saying you are right because you think so isn't an appeal to authority, sorry. And listing people and saying that YOU believe them to be good isn't either.

[Volatar]

You people seem to have stopped arguing over an actual topic and are just bickering with each other now. Stop it.

[toasty]

Saying you are right because you think so isn't an appeal to authority, sorry. And listing people and saying that YOU believe them to be good isn't either.

Objectively, efdf is better than 99% of all players in LoL, to be fair. He's rated 1911 elo. Arb is rated 1500, so is Arcanoi.

I'm going to end this now.

[Inhuman Bot]

Objectively, efdf is better than 99% of all players in LoL, to be fair. He's rated 1911 elo. Arb is rated 1500, so is Arcanoi.

I'm going to end this now.

You just had to get the last word in, didn't you.

So, what's up with DotA's voice actors and leaking things?

[Tazar]

I can't wait until DOTA 2. Still can't believe Valve is dropping a million dollars (and that's just for first place!) on this tournament. That's gotta have S2 and Riot pretty nervous.

I'm extremely hyped for gameplay footage at this point; I'm dying to see anything of Alleria and Harby. The fact that Valve, masters of fantastic character interaction, is doing this only has me more excited. Hero banter in-lane should be great.

While Winterwind's point has already been solidly refuted, I'll join my voice to that of those pointing out that nearly every skill he listed as "identical" actually has a differentiating factor.

For example, Crystal Maiden's Frostbite is massively different from Hellfire Blast. It doesn't stun (much to my constant chagrin) and it does DoT. To suggest that they're identical abilities is quite frankly flat-out wrong, and suggests that you may not remember the way some of these abilities function too well.

To anyone saying that INT heroes cannot be threatening in late-game DotA: Destroyer would like a word with you.

Sure, INTs may drop off in pure killing power, but they're still absolutely vital to teamfights for CC and support abilities. INTs dominate the early game and lose power later on, but they're never rendered irrelevant.

[Inhuman Bot]

I can't wait until DOTA 2. Still can't believe Valve is dropping a million dollars (and that's just for first place!) on this tournament. That's gotta have S2 and Riot pretty nervous.


Sure, INTs may drop off in pure killing power, but they're still absolutely vital to teamfights for CC and support abilities. INTs dominate the early game and lose power later on, but they're never rendered irrelevant.

LoL is a different game entirely. HoN is going to be doomed, though.

There's a number of INT carries in addition to supports. Necrolyte, Tormented Spirit, and Invoker come to mind.

[Cynan Machae]

Dont forget Storm Spirit! Most fun INT carry of all

[Inhuman Bot]

Dont forget Storm Spirit! Most fun INT carry of all

Storm Spirit is more of an abomination then Pudge.

[Suedars]

LoL is a different game entirely. HoN is going to be doomed, though.

There's a number of INT carries in addition to supports. Necrolyte, Tormented Spirit, and Invoker come to mind.

Int carries are really a separate class of hero than regular carries though.

They don't have the absurd lategame potential, but they make up for it by having much faster early game farming, usually being very good pushers, and being an incredible teamfight presence in the midgame. If you're relying on an int carry you want to close the game out before the lategame hits, since Necro is never going to be able to face down a lategame Morphling, no matter how farmed he is.

[Cynan Machae]

Int carries are really a separate class of hero than regular carries though.

They don't have the absurd lategame potential, but they make up for it by having much faster early game farming, usually being very good pushers, and being an incredible teamfight presence in the midgame. If you're relying on an int carry you want to close the game out before the lategame hits, since Necro is never going to be able to face down a lategame Morphling, no matter how farmed he is.

Storm Spirit says otherwise, tho. So does Tinker. And some other can do pretty even with regular agi carries, like Harbinger, Silencer.

[Suedars]

Storm Spirit says otherwise, tho. So does Tinker. And some other can do pretty even with regular agi carries, like Harbinger, Silencer.

Storm Spirit is much more like a traditional carry, but he still gets outclassed late.

And Tinker is just in his own class of hero. There really isn't anyone like him.

OD and Silencer can definitely be lategame powerhouses that wreck even agi carries, but that's because their earlygame is atrocious if you're going for a carry build.

But generally speaking, when people are referring to an int carry, they mean a midgame teamfight and push centric hero like Necro or Pugna.

[thegurullamen]

I'm probably displaying my ignorance here, but how is Necrolyte a carry? He has a good passive but only if you can last hit, a decent-to-good AoE heal/nuke, an okay passive if you can stay in the fight for a long while and one amazing ability with a crazy cooldown. How does all of this add up to a carry?

[Tazar]

I could be wrong, but I believe that it's because with a good item build the amount of mass AoE healing and damage he can put out with Death Pulse alone is rather insane.

He's got pretty good STR and AGI for an INT hero as well, which helps. Necro can become pretty tanky while still putting out a heck of a lot of damage.

[Fera Tian]

I'm probably displaying my ignorance here, but how is Necrolyte a carry? He has a good passive but only if you can last hit, a decent-to-good AoE heal/nuke, an okay passive if you can stay in the fight for a long while and one amazing ability with a crazy cooldown. How does all of this add up to a carry?

I don't know about dota, but in HoN, a tanky soul reaper can devastate teams.

10 seconds = 10% true damage to health, 450 magic damage to enemies and 260 heal to allies/self

[Suedars]

I'm probably displaying my ignorance here, but how is Necrolyte a carry? He has a good passive but only if you can last hit, a decent-to-good AoE heal/nuke, an okay passive if you can stay in the fight for a long while and one amazing ability with a crazy cooldown. How does all of this add up to a carry?

Like I described before, he's not a carry in the "farm all game, then autoattack to victory" sense. Basically he gets some good farming done early-mid, makes a couple key defensive items then basically serves as an unkillable anchor in teamfights that's constantly healing your team and damaging their entire team.

If you dominate teamfights with him in the midgame you can combine that with his powerful pushing to take several very early towers, either ending the game quickly, or putting you in enough of a lead that your lack of a lategame carry doesn't matter too much.

[Rhydeble]

Objectively, efdf is better than 99% of all players in LoL, to be fair. He's rated 1911 elo. Arb is rated 1500, so is Arcanoi.

I'm going to end this now.

besides the fact that that only takes into account one ladder, out of many, does he also have the authority to say that heroes in DotA are more similair then those in LoL? after all, DotA doesn't have two spells that are the same on every single hero ever.

Anyway, back to the great game that is DotA, what kind of hats do you all expect to see? Or do you think that Valve will do the same as Riot and S2 and make different skins, making it slightly harder to identify heroes with a quick glance?

It would also be nice to finally have tutorials in the game, since a lot of the earlier mentioned problems about denying and juking can be solved by explaining it.

And about denying not making sense, how about every hero carries a combat teleportation device that sends heavily wounded allies directly to the infirmary, And having this device being magically enhanced by carrying lots of weaponry?

[Inhuman Bot]

Anyway, back to the great game that is DotA, what kind of hats do you all expect to see? Or do you think that Valve will do the same as Riot and S2 and make different skins, making it slightly harder to identify heroes with a quick glance?

It would also be nice to finally have tutorials in the game, since a lot of the earlier mentioned problems about denying and juking can be solved by explaining it.

And about denying not making sense, how about every hero carries a combat teleportation device that sends heavily wounded allies directly to the infirmary, And having this device being magically enhanced by carrying lots of weaponry?

Honestly, I expect to see skins. I just hope they don't do things like Mutant Parasite/Moraxus, or Female Pyromancer/Andromeda. (Or Feral Warwick/Malphite), or probably worst of all, Flint Boomstick/Engineer. It's a pain to tell them apart at a slight glance.

If I don't get to play as Gordon Freeman Invoker, firing a different gun for the various spell effects, I will be sad.

I expect to see a tutorial, but also a coach mode as TF2 has.

Denying: Well, HoN claims denying sends them to a retirement home.

Edited out for fakeness.

[Winterwind]

I seriously just want to withdraw from this thread, but I just hate to see my point being completely misrepresented and distorted too much.

A number of the skills you listed in DotA are differentiated though. Storm Bolt is an AE. Dragon Tail is melee range, does minimal damage (it barely qualifies as a nuke) but has a lengthy stun. Lightning Bolt reveals the area around the target. Laguna Blade and Finger of Death both deal huge damage (basically Veigar's ultimate compared to his q) and don't really fall into the same category of "basic nukes".

Rogue Knight's Storm Bolt is an AoE? Okay, I didn't realize that. In that case, remove that one from the list. All the others though? Regardless of whether they have more or less range, more or less stun, more or less damage, every single one of them is just a "single-target auto-hit spell that may deal damage and may stun". I never said they all had the same numbers. But they all share the same mechanic, with no additions or modifications to this.

That's were your wrong WW, if that it's the basis of your argument, like Suedars said they are as much different then those LoL spells. The only two spell on that list that I would agree are pretty similar would be Lina's ult and Lion Finger of Death. (and they are different from the others spells because they are very high damage/mana cost spells with pretty high cooldowns ultimates)

Spoiler

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- Rogue Knight's Storm Bolt (AoE damage and Stun) (Okay, didn't know about the AoE. Conceded on this one.)
- Dragon Knight's Dragon Tail (melee range, low mana almost no damage but long stun) (So, it is a single-target auto-hitting spell with (very little) damage and stun.)
- Moon Rider's Lucent Beam (synergy with ultimate, ministun to interrupt channeling) (So, it is a single-target auto-hitting spell with damage and (very little) stun.)
- Vengeful Spirit's Magic Missile (single target stun) (So, it is a single-target auto-hitting spell with damage and stun.)
- Bounty Hunter's Shuriken Toss (ministun to interrupt channeling) (So, it is a single-target auto-hitting spell with damage and (very little) stun.)
- Lord of Olympus' Lightning Bolt (reveal invisibility in an AoE) (Okay, so this one does have an added functionality. Conceded on this one.)
- Slayer's Laguna Blade (high damage ultimate) (So, it is a single-target auto-hitting spell with damage and (no) stun.)
- Ogre Magi's Fireblast (constant stun duration regardless of level, purpose of this spell is getting the multicast, else it's a subpar spell with low everything by itself) (So, it is a single-target auto-hitting spell with damage and stun.)
- Demon Witch's Finger of Death (high damage ultimate) (So, it is a single-target auto-hitting spell with damage and (no) stun.)

Spells that are virtually the same with only minimal modifications thereof:
- Centaur Warchief's Double Edge (auto hitting single target damage with no stun. Only change is that it costs life in addition to mana to cast.) (ministun to interrupt channeling and melee range as well) (So, it is a single-target auto-hitting spell with damage and (very little) stun. The only thing special about it is an additional health cost.)
- Chaos Knight's Chaos Bolt (only change is that the damage and stun duration are both random, in itself bad design for needlessly introducing chance into a game of strategy and micro skill) (agreed with that)
- Skeleton King's Hellfire Blast (only change is that after the stun, there is a brief period of slow in addition) (slow and damage) (Isn't that what I said? The only thing distinguishing it is an addition of slow. Think that's too much of a modification already? Fair enough, we can remove this one.)
- Crystal Maiden's Frostbite (only change is that the damage is dealt over the duration of the stun, rather than instantly. Unless it still allows to cast spells when inside this, which as I recall it does not; if it does, remove it from this list.) (it stop movement and attacks, you can still cast spells. also, when used on creep, summons and neutrals, duration is 10 seconds) (Hey, I said to ignore this one if it still allowed casting. )
- Holy Knight's Test of Faith (auto hitting single target damage with no stun. Only change is that the damage is random, but of pure-type.) (pure type damage make it impossible to reduce it with magic armor or anything) (Magic armor doesn't exactly have a very high mechanical focus in DotA. I count only four items that have it (Linken's Sphere, Khadgar's Pipe, Hood of Defiance, Planeswalker's Cloak), which is... not exactly a lot (for reference, in LoL there are 14 items that give Magic Resistance, including one with an aura, and 17 heroes have abilities that give them or their allies permanent or temporary Magic Resistance as well, in addition to a whole number of heroes having natural Magic Resistance growth (while others do not)). How many heroes tend to actually get any of these? If it's not a significant percentage, I'd consider that an utterly negligible bonus. That everyone has 30% default magic resistance in DotA doesn't count - if everyone has it, and it normally doesn't get modified, all this means is that the damage numbers on Test of Faith's damage are actually higher than what the tool tip displays.)

So, we can remove Storm Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Frostbite and maybe Hellfire Blast from that list. All the others, you yourself admitted they were precisely what I said they were - reiterations of a single-target auto-hit spell with damage and/or stun, no special additional effects, distinguished solely by their numbers.

My experience on LoL is pretty limited, but from what I've played I'm pretty sure you could draw a very similar list with slows/snares instead of stuns

Actually, no, you couldn't. Spells in LoL invariably have some additional, distinguishing aspect that goes beyond just different numbers - be it that they refill your mana under certain conditions, that the stun/damage duration varies depending on your positioning, that they move you or your target around, etc. Whether one considers the differences big enough to not still call unoriginality on that is a different matter entirely (and one where I myself am not entirely sure where I'd stand), but literally just copying the same spell and only modifying its numbers (and graphical effect)? No, that's fairly unique to DotA.

While Winterwind's point has already been solidly refuted, I'll join my voice to that of those pointing out that nearly every skill he listed as "identical" actually has a differentiating factor.

For example, Crystal Maiden's Frostbite is massively different from Hellfire Blast. It doesn't stun (much to my constant chagrin) and it does DoT. To suggest that they're identical abilities is quite frankly flat-out wrong, and suggests that you may not remember the way some of these abilities function too well.

You're saying that "nearly every skill" I mentioned has a differentiating factor, and then pick as an example, of all the skills on my list, the one where I mentioned right when I brought it up on the list that this one might actually have a differentiating factor I wasn't sure it had?

I'd actually say my point was solidly affirmed. Nearly every skill on that list does not have a differentiating factor beyond numbers. See Cynan's analysis. I find it rather amusing you would claim my point was solidly refuted, when all that people did was bring up evidence to back it up (apart from 3-4 skills on which I was factually wrong).



I have already conceded that this maybe doesn't mean as much as I attributed it to, as even utterly identical skills can be interestingly different in the context of an otherwise different hero kit. But the point that DotA engages in a massive amount of copy-pasta? That one was most definitely not refuted.

And I haven't even mentioned that this is just for Storm Bolt clones (which are admittedly by far the worst offender). Still, the amount of War Stomp/Thunderclap clones, Wind Walk clones, Critical Strike clones, Bash clones and a few more default WC3 spells is pretty impressive as well.

[Inhuman Bot]

I seriously just want to withdraw from this thread, but I just hate to see my point being completely misrepresented and distorted too much.

League of Legends is almost identical if you replace stun with slow.

Edit: Especially if you add very vague differentiations like "Gives you a bit of HP" or "Doesn't cost mana if it kills something" that really make the spell the same.

[Tono]

Keep in mind that the usage of all those isn't the same. Some are hard disables meant to disable your opponent, while others are meant to disrupt channels and teleports. A mini-stun and stun are vastly different.

[toasty]

besides the fact that that only takes into account one ladder, out of many, does he also have the authority to say that heroes in DotA are more similair then those in LoL? after all, DotA doesn't have two spells that are the same on every single hero ever.

To be fair, its the only ladder that anyone seems to care about in LoL right now. 5v5 arranged doesn't matter at at High Elo and no one even cares about 3v3. 2ndly, in this instance I wasn't talking about DotA2 but about LoL, which is why I dropped the conversation.

If this game only costs $30 I'm going be so happy. Not excited about voice chat though. Not at all.

[Inhuman Bot]

To be fair, its the only ladder that anyone seems to care about in LoL right now. 5v5 arranged doesn't matter at at High Elo and no one even cares about 3v3. 2ndly, in this instance I wasn't talking about DotA2 but about LoL, which is why I dropped the conversation.

If this game only costs $30 I'm going be so happy. Not excited about voice chat though. Not at all.

If you want to drop it just stop responding to people.

[Keld Denar]

I can't wait until DOTA 2. Still can't believe Valve is dropping a million dollars (and that's just for first place!) on this tournament. That's gotta have S2 and Riot pretty nervous.

I doubt that VALVE is dropping a million dollars on this. Tournaments are usually sponsered. Most of the purse comes from the sponser. They'll probably get someone like Mt Dew with multi-billion dollar advertizing budgets to foot most of the purse. That said, Valve will probably spend multiple million dollars porting DotA to its own platform and making whatever changes they need to make to to incorporate all of the updates.

[Suedars]

And about denying not making sense, how about every hero carries a combat teleportation device that sends heavily wounded allies directly to the infirmary, And having this device being magically enhanced by carrying lots of weaponry?

This is actually a pretty awesome idea that would make denying a lot less awkward for new players. You already have to hit a to force attack a creep you're denying, so you could get away with binding the deny mechanic to a specific key.

The only complication is that you'd need a way to tie it to the hero's specific attack animation so that that remains a critical factor in determining a hero's strength in lane.

So, we can remove Storm Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Frostbite and maybe Hellfire Blast from that list. All the others, you yourself admitted they were precisely what I said they were - reiterations of a single-target auto-hit spell with damage and/or stun, no special additional effects, distinguished solely by their numbers.

Your initial argument here is that too many of DotA's skills are similar, right? If so, saying that Dragon Tail and Laguna Blade are similar skills is about the same as claiming that Cassiopeia's E is the same as Veigar's ultimate because they're both damaging spells. The two spells are completely different, and play nothing alike.

If that wasn't your argument I'd ask what you mean to show with this, since you haven't really shown how this is a bad thing.